Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/Archive 243 - Wikipedia

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Matzoon (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Lemabeta (talk · contribs)
• Vanezi Astghik (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Dispute over the origins of Matzoon. We have been having extensive discussion in the talk page whether or not Matzoon should be mentioned as a product of Georgian origin, alongside of Armenian origin or not. There are number of sources that mention the origins of the product as Georgian as well as Armenian. We need help resolving this dispute as the discussions are not going anywhere and because of the reason that opposition refuses to further discuss this issue.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Talk:Matzoon#Recent_citations_issues https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Matzoon#Recent_citations_issues

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Both countries should be included as origins of the product; As there are number of sources providing basis for this resolution.

Summary of dispute by Vanezi Astghik

I'm not the only user in the discussion and I will not be participating in this case for the following reasons: the discussion was opened only 5 days ago, imo it hasn't developed to the stage of requiring a DRN, the user still has not provided sources stating their claim of origin and mentions the same sources that don't support it here, and the user even tried to circumvent the discussion and their own DRN by requesting an extended confirmed edit (in the edit request they don't even mention the current discussion) with same unverifiable sources that were already discussed and shown not supporting their claim of origin - it resulted in a rejection by the edit request reviewer [1]. The kind of actions such as the latter (circumventing a discussion and requesting an edit despite users actively opposing them) additionally don't inspire me to participate in something initiated by this user. Vanezi (talk) 03:39, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Lemabeta

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

in the source it says: Springer. p. 212 - "Matzoon (En); mazun (Fr, De); matsun, matsoni, maconi. Short Description: "Of Armenian origin; Georgia, Caucasus (USSR); traditional product; the milk of ewes, goats, buffalo, or cows or mixtures thereof; yoghurt like product traditionally made from boiled milk and an undefined starter culture; firm consistency and acidic flavor."

My interpretation of the source is that the author names the countries from where the origins of Matzoon/Matsoni is from, thats why he mentions Georgia, Caucasus(USSR), alongside Armenia.

My oppositions opinion is that because it doesn't say specifically "Of Georgian origin" and says Georgia, Caucasus that it doesn't need to be mentioned in the article that origins of Matsoni are also from Georgia.

My opinion is also also agreed by the European Union, Switzerland, United Kingdom through a bi-lateral agreement about Geographical Indications registration[2] who recognizes the patented copyright laws and geographical distribution indication of Matsoni.

"DESCRIPTION OF THE FINISHED PRODUCT AND RAW MATERIAL:

MATSONI is a Georgian traditional cultured milk product, which is prepared from the milk of cow, buffalo, goat, sometimes sheep or their mixing. The cultured milk fermentation gives the product named “Dedo”, which consists of bacterial strains, existed in the local area of Georgia.[3]

GEOGRAPHICAL AREA OF PRODUCTION:

Obtaining, processing and fermentation of milk for MATSONI production takes place in the whole territory of Georgia. Fermentation for obtaining of cultured milk product occurs by the “Dedo” consisting of local bacteria strains."[4]

Also the opposition, who are Armenians refuse to accept other kind of sources which also call Matsoni as "Georgian yoghurt", they delete the any attempt of writing it as "of Armenian and Georgian origins" even tho legally Georgia has more claim over it.

The sources they deleted are following: [5] [6] [7]

Please help us resolve this issue. Thank you --Lemabeta (talk) 08:50, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Matzoon discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Ali Amin Gandapur (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• WikiEnthusiast1001 (talk · contribs)
• SheriffIsInTown (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

I think moving the Sobia Shahid audio to her page is a good idea, but I don't get why Sheriff keeps deleting my other edits. Mine are neutral, unlike his, which claimed, "Critics say his appointment as Chief Minister has damaged the party's image and ability to govern well." Gandapur has only been in power for a few days, so how did they come to that conclusion? I get that it's written in the article but we are supposed to maintain neutrality on Wikipedia.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Talk:Ali Amin Gandapur#Avoiding an Edit war

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

I believe that a third-person can help us reach an agreement and resolve the dispute.

Summary of dispute by SheriffIsInTown

I observed their effort to delete information regarding his misogynistic comments towards Maryam Nawaz and the addition of an irrelevant threat attributed to Sobia Shahid from an unidentified Twitter account, which seemed like an endeavor to censor information and shift blame onto the victim. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 23:35, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

I didn't delete the comments about Maryam, I actually included it here WikiEnthusiast1001 (talk) 00:48, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

I clearly see the whole chunk regarding Maryam being deleted which was the big reason for dispute commencement. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 02:11, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

The "chunk" your referring to is just one sentence about Maryam. I rewrote it and included the exact details of what he said with a source. WikiEnthusiast1001 (talk) 02:26, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

By "chunk," I mean that you eliminated all the information related to Maryam in your initial edit. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 02:32, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

The initial edit is irrelevant as I corrected it in the next one. This doesn't explain why you continued to delete it. WikiEnthusiast1001 (talk) 02:39, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Your most recent edit also had its issues, which led to its reversal. You removed the sourced information from the start which captured the gist of everything about his remarks against Maryam. Additionally, what you assert you added concerning Maryam barely scratched the surface of the offensive remarks he made about her. Furthermore, your attempt to mitigate sexism against Sobia by introducing unwarranted and unrelated content from an unidentified Twitter account was questionable. Thus, the burden of explanation should fall on you instead of me in this instance. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 04:13, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Ali Amin Gandapur discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

• Volunteer Note - Discussion has been in progress on the article talk page for only a few hours, not 24 hours. Continue discussion on the article talk page for 24 hours. Be civil, and comment on content, not contributors. I am neither opening nor closing this case at this time. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:03, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

First statement by moderator (Ali Amin Gandapur)

I am ready to act as the moderator. Please read DRN Rule D. The subject of the article is a Pakistani politician, and articles about Pakistani politics and politicians are covered by the ArbCom decision on India, Pakistan, and Afghanistan. I will repeat a few rules. Be civil and concise. Comment on content, not contributors. Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion. That already hasn't worked. The moderator (me) will ask the questions, and is the representative of the community. The editors will address their answers to the moderator and the community.

Do the editors agree to abide by the rules, and agree that the contentious topic procedure is in effect?

The purpose of moderated discussion is to improve the encyclopedia. So I will ask each editor: What do you want to change in the article, or what do you want to leave alone that another editor wants to change? You don't need to say why at this time. I will ask that in the next round. Exactly what is the content dispute? Robert McClenon (talk) 01:18, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

I agree to abide by the rules and that the procedure is in effect. I'm sort of okay with how the page looks now, but the part about being "misogynistic" is being taken out of context. In Gandapur's speech, he quotes Maryam saying "jaisa moo vaisi chapair" which translates to "As the face, so the slap" in English. Gandapur then proceeds to respond to her threat with "I have a lot more to say but I will only say this to her (Maryam) that if we come to slap then you will get slapped so much that your [real] face will be uncovered from the Rs80 million [cosmetic] surgery you have done from our [tax] money." I believe someone who knows Urdu can vouch for me as there really isn't a misogynistic element here. WikiEnthusiast1001 (talk) 22:37, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

I agree by the rules and procedures. Currently, I have no intention of altering anything further, and I also prefer that other editor refrains from making any further changes to the "Controversies" and "Arrest" sections. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 04:18, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Second statement by moderator (Ali Amin Gandapur)

It appears that one editor is satisfied with the current version of the article. I am not exactly sure what the other editor wants changed. I see that there is a controversy involving another politician, Maryam Nawaz, whom Gandapur says had expensive cosmetic surgery at public expense. I don't see any discussion of a controversy about cosmetic surgery in the article on Maryam Nawaz, and so wonder whether discussing it only in the article on a different politician is undue weight. However, I am asking the editor who wants to change the wording to indicate exactly what they would like the article on Gandapur to say. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:15, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

My position is that what he said was NOT misogynistic. He quoted Maryam's threats about slapping where she says "jaisa moo vaisi chapair" which translates to "As the face, so the slap", Gandapur replies to it by saying "if we come to slap then you will get slapped so much that your [real] face will be uncovered from the Rs80 million [cosmetic] surgery you have done from our [tax] money." I think a Wikipedia admin who knows Urdu can verify this. WikiEnthusiast1001 (talk) 20:52, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

I haven't found any evidence of Maryam saying what was quoted by the other editor. Furthermore, the sources characterize the behavior of Gandapur as misogynistic and sexist. I believe we should stick to what the sources say without adding our own interpretations. I'm fine with the current version of the article. If the other editor agrees, we can close this discussion. Otherwise, I'm not inclined to make changes that deviate from the sources' essence. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 02:57, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

You're Pakistani and understand Urdu, listen to the speech from 1:56 - 2:02. I'm fine with the article once this issue is addressed. WikiEnthusiast1001 (talk) 03:57, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Second statements by editors (Ali Amin Gandapur)

First statements by editors (Ali Amin Gandapur)

Third statement by moderator (Ali Amin Gandapur)

Either there isn't a disagreement about the content of the article, or the disagreement hasn't been stated specifically. If either of you want any change made to the article, please read Be Specific at DRN, and state what you want changed. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:51, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

The other editor must clarify precisely what they wish to remove or add. They objected to the term "misogynistic," which has been removed. However, they still believe there is an issue, so they need to specify what it is. Sheriff | ☎ 911 | 12:14, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

I am satisfied with the article. I agree to close this discussion. Thanks for your cooperation Sheriff. WikiEnthusiast1001 (talk) 21:51, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Third statements by editors (Ali Amin Gandapur)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Rolls-Royce Mustang Mk.X (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Completeaerogeek (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

The designation of these 5 unique aircraft is incorrect in the article. Rolls-Royce and RAF original sources (documents, letters and performance charts and reports (all refer to the aircraft as the Mustang X not MK X. As the aircraft were limited in number, the effective manufacturer or design authority was Rolls-Royce and their designation should be used. I do not believe that the 'common use name' principle applies here. I have uploaded documentation to the talk page in support of this. it is a very narrow topic and the correct designation should be used. This has been discussed at length on the talk page.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Rolls-Royce_Mustang_Mk.X

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Review the reasoning and sources behind this debate and decide on the evidence.

Rolls-Royce mustang Mk X discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

As the user who Completeaerogeek has a dispute with, I believe that it is far too early to bring this here. They have yet to open a formal move request on the article's talk page, and seem to have made little effort to seek a consensus from the rest of WP:WikiProject Aviation. - ZLEA _T\^C 00:20, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• List of countries by GDP (nominal) (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Minchuchui (talk · contribs)
• 北京555 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Until the 07:45, 12 March 2024 edition, Taiwan, Kosovo, and Palestine were ranked in the article for a long time. User Beijing555 skipped the three countries mentioned above from the ranking and changed their ranking. The first part of the article says "states with limited international recognition (such as Kosovo and Taiwan) are included in the list where they appear in the sources.", and if Beijing 555 were to exclude those three countries from its ranking, I think that sentence would have to be changed as well. However, since the three countries have been ranked for a long time, I don't think it should be changed.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

[8]

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

We would like to hear opinion or judgment on whether we should keep the version of the article as it was in the past or change it to be consistent with 北京555's edits.

Summary of dispute by 北京555

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

List of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal) discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Ziyavudin Magomedov (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Spotted springer7 (talk · contribs)
• Odlanier2024 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

The dispute relates to the page of Ziyavudin Magomedov, a Russian oligarch imprisoned in Russia. I’ve had several disagreements with a fellow editor, Odlainer2024, over recent months and despite the fact we’ve traded several long messages on the Talk Page we haven’t reached a consensus. I’ve tried to integrate many of Odlainer2024’s suggestions, but we don’t seem to be getting anywhere. The dispute is quite complex, but written as briefly as possible it essentially boils down to:

• The length of the lead section, and the prominence/due weight given to claims which are either: a) not relevant enough for the first paragraph, b) reproduced in a very similar form elsewhere in the article or c) overly detailed/obscure for the lead section.

• Along similar lines, there’s a question about the due weight/prominence given to certain material. This is primarily within the "Career" section, as well as the proposed “proximity to Putin’s regime” section. This proposed section details every potential connection Magomedov, or family members had to the “Russian elite” prior to his arrest which I’ve argued creates a misleading impression for readers. A very detailed breakdown of the problems here, and Odlainer2024’s responses can be found on the Talk Page.

• The length and use of quotes which are often several lines long and not properly summarised and contextualised. This means that the contents of the quotes are often deployed as an appendage to re-iterate/emphasise a particular narrative.

There are also disagreements about the approach to editing the page, and in some places, the actual content/sourcing and language used. I’m happy to provide more detail, but there is already a very detailed Talk Page discussion. The most relevant material will probably be found in recent posts.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

[9]

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

I think it would be useful to suggest a few ways to reach a consensus on the page

Summary of dispute by Odlainer2024

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Ziyavudin Magomedov discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

• Volunteer Note - The filing party has not notified the other editor on their user talk page. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:53, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• 1977 anti-Tamil pogrom (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Cossde (talk · contribs)
• Oz346 (talk · contribs)
• Petextrodon (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Current dispute is over cited content has been removed by two users Oz346 and Petextrodon who have repeatedly removed cited content added by me claiming "ruining the flow of the article with unnecessary details". Given the highly controversial nature of the article, I feel that the events leading up to the events of at the core of the article needs to be clearly stated to established the context of the events mentioned in the article. Furthermore, these events have been mentioned in the government commission that has been cited heavily to narrate the events that took place during the time covered by the article. However these editors feel that should focus on the pogrom which I feel that is non-WP:NPOV.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Talk:1977_anti-Tamil_pogrom#Discussion_on_background_section

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Decide if the content that has been removed should be kept in the article.

Summary of dispute by Oz346

User Cossde wants to have an overly long background section, which expands greatly on Tamil separatism, anti police violence and the 1977 Tamil electoral history. See his preferred version here: [10]. I think this is of undue weight and that the current background section already summarises these topics concisely, without submerging the actual topic of the article which is the 1977 anti-Tamil pogrom. His reliance on the framework of a government commission which has been described as being biased towards the government by other reliable sources, should not be the basis of how an encyclopaedic article on this topic is framed.

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

1977 anti-Tamil pogrom discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Zeroth statement by moderator (1977 pogrom)

I am ready to act as the moderator if at least two editors request a moderator. Please read DRN Rule A and follow the instructions. Be civil and concise. Comment on content, not contributors. Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion.

Will each editor state briefly what they want to change in the article (or what they want to leave the same that another editor wants to change). It is not necessary at this time to state why you want to change it or do not want to change it. Robert McClenon (talk) 07:23, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

Zeroth statements by editors (1977 pogrom)

Cossde: Yes please. I would greatly appreciate your involvement in this matter and agree to follow the rules mentioned.

The key dispute at hand is over the that was added by my and removed by these editors over the write up of the prelude to the events of this article. The removed content explains the events leading up to the riots in August 1977 and were fully citied. These are supported by both primary and secondary sources. A primary source, the report of the Government public inquiry was used since it was heavily cited to detail incidents that took place during the riots, coving majority of the written content of this article. My request is that you review the deleted content and consider what needs to be included to develop a meaningful prelude section that covers the events leading up to the riots in August 1977. Cossde (talk) 13:19, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes please, I would appreciate your moderation. I want to leave the current background section as it is, as I believe the proposed changes by the other user is of undue weight for this article, which is about the 1977 anti-Tamil pogrom. Oz346 (talk) 23:08, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

First statement by moderator (1977 pogrom)

One editor has said that they want a third party to review the content in question and decide whether it should be in the article. The usual function of this noticeboard is to facilitate discussion between the parties rather than to make a decision. I am willing to review the content in question and make a decision as to whether it should be kept, and how much of it, but only if the parties agree that they will accept and be bound by the decision. The reason that I insist that my decision must be binding is that I know that it is otherwise likely that one party will not accept the decision, and then it may be difficult or impossible to find a neutral mediator for the continuing argument. So I have two questions. First, do the editors want me to make a binding decision on the questioned content? Second, are the editors willing to take part in moderated discussion (mediation), which, if unsuccessful, will be followed by an RFC?

After those questions are answered, we will continue in one direction or another. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:41, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. Cossde (talk) 13:07, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

yes I agree. Oz346 (talk) 13:41, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

First statements by editors (1977 pogrom)

Second statement by moderator (1977 pogrom)

I think that the question that I asked to answer had to do with the addition and then removal on 19 February of several paragraphs of background information that was described as excessive detail in an edit summary. I don't consider it to be excessive detail to add to the background section. The details about the Tamil separatist movement and about the killing of the policemen help to understand the background of the violence. At least, that is my answer to what I think the question was. There may be some remaining issues about that content that can still be discussed, but my opinion is that it is useful additional background.

Are there any other article content issues? Robert McClenon (talk) 03:22, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

If this section (Events leading to August 1977) is just added to the current page, will that be suffice from your POV?

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=1977_anti-Tamil_pogrom&oldid=1209136268#Events_leading_up_to_Augest_1977

I think the additional section edits of "St. Patrick’s College Carnival" is not a good change, as the events of the carnival are already recorded in clear chronological order in this existing section:

1977 anti-Tamil pogrom#Jaffna District Oz346 (talk) 00:13, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Robert. Events leading up to the riots helps understand the background to the violance. Only one suggestion here, we could change "Events leading to August 1977" to prelude if that makes better sence. I disagree with Oz346, the section on St. Patrick’s College Carnival should be kept as it gives the diffirent conflicting accounts to the start of the violance.Cossde (talk) 14:45, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

The different conflicting accounts are already mentioned in this section: 1977 anti-Tamil pogrom#The ethnic pogrom.

It does not make sense to me to excise the events of August 12th from the chronological timeline already set out here: 1977 anti-Tamil pogrom#Jaffna District. Oz346 (talk) 13:27, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

As I agreed earlier, I do not want to take part in a continuing argument. I have stated my view. I defer to the judgement of @Robert McClenon on this matter. Cossde (talk) 13:38, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Second statements by editors (1977 pogrom)

@Robert McClenon: I did not think this was completely resolved. I left some concerns which went unanswered regarding whether to have a separate section on the carnival divorced from the overall chronology. I would appreciate the moderators decision on that before final closure. Thank you. Oz346 (talk) 05:02, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Third statement by moderator (1977 pogrom)

Will each editor please state concisely what they want to change in the article, or what another editor wants to change in the article that they want left alone? The purpose of discussion at DRN, or any content discussion, is to improve the article, so state exactly what the issue is about the article. Robert McClenon (talk) 07:42, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Third statements by editors (1977 pogrom)

I believe that a separate section entitled 1977_anti-Tamil_pogrom#St._Patrick’s_College_Carnival is unnecessary, and that its current first paragraph should be removed, with the section being renamed back to the "the ethnic pogrom" as before.

The current first paragraph is as follows:

St. Patrick’s College Carnival

On 12 August, four policemen visited a carnival at St. Patrick’s College, where they assaulted Mr. Kulanayagam, who asked them for an entry free.[9][21] The policemen misbehaved and helped themselves freely to food at food stalls without paying.[21] The four off-duty policemen had tried to enter the carnival without paying the entrance fee, policmen were accustomed to using public transport and entering places of entertainment without paying entrance fee. Many policmen regarded this as a privilage. On 12 August the carnival orgernizers resisted and a scuffle ensued, with the uniformed policemen on duty coming to the aid of their colleagues. [15][better source needed] On the 13th, the same policemen again went to the carnival where they clashed with locals around midnight. Two policemen were injured and hospitalised as a result.[21] The policemen had claimed that they had gone in search of two men wanted for a rubbery, this was rejected by Sanson.[21]

This information is better integrated in the existing 1977_anti-Tamil_pogrom#Jaffna_District section, where the chronology of events can be followed more logically from August 12th onwards. Having the events of the carnival separated from the subsequent days does not flow well. At the moment there is also repetition of content.

Finally, there has been a dispute about the reliability of a source used in that section, which I feel should not be in the article, as the author Chandraprema has been accused of gross human rights violations as part of the Sri Lankan security forces, and for glorifying Gotabaya Rajapaksa. See discussion here: [11]

Oz346 (talk) 11:44, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

I don't agree with Oz346, given that many sources accpete that rioting started after the events at St. Patrick’s College Carnival and that there are conflecting accounts of what happened there as shown in the current St. Patrick’s College Carnival section, it is common sense to keep it where it is. Much of the events there after are very much based on events reported in the public hearing. I leave it to Robert McClenon to make a call on it. Cossde (talk) 02:20, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

On Oz346's final point, that content has been removed by me [12], hence I don't think it is an issue here. Cossde (talk) 02:25, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

I would like to raise another content issue that has come up. Petextrodon has removed a secondary source that have reviewed the report of the public hearing [13], which does not mentioned any bias and have stacked up sources to claim that the report is bias [14]. I reques that this be included in the scope of this DRN. Cossde (talk) 01:23, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Fourth statement by moderator (1977 pogrom)

Read DRN Rule D again. There has been editing of the article. I had closed this discussion briefly, and some of you may have taken that as a signal to resume editing. So I am not going to parse the exact times at which the edits were made to determine which edits were improper. But do not edit the article while moderated discussion is in progress. If you continue to take part in this discussion, you are continuing to agree to DRN Rule D.

At this point we need to identify what the content issues are. I see at least two issues. The first is whether to have a separate section about the St. Patrick's College Carnival. I will only provide an opinion about keeping or merging the section if the editors agree to abide by my opinion (because otherwise we will need to find another mediator). The second is an issue about the removal of a source. There are also issues about the reliability of sources. Are there any other issues?

Any issues about the reliability of sources should be referred to the Reliable Source Noticeboard. I am asking each editor to please identify all of the sources about which there are reliability issues, and the points in the article that are the context for the issues. Please also identify any other content issues. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:04, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Fourth statements by editors (1977 pogrom)

Yes, I agree. I think the issue of the reliability of sources has been settled via a RSN, with the source and related content removed based on the RSN outcome by me and Oz346 cleared the few bits I missed. Hence I feel that this issue is settled. I feel the issues at hand are:

1. A separate section about the St. Patrick's College Carnival

2. The content on the section on the public hearing (Presidential Commission of Inquiry) the current narrative is not WP:NPOV, it gives WP:UNDU weight with several sources making it feel as if the report is generally accepted as bias, while other sources that have quoted it and does not claim its bias have been removed [15]. Cossde (talk) 04:10, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

1. Yes the first issue is whether to have a separate section about the St. Patrick's College Carnival, or whether to merge it. I will agree and abide with your opinion.

2. The second issue, is that Cossde wants to add repetitive information about the Sansoni reports explanations for the riots. One source already summarises them (Kearney), there is no need to repeat them again with another source (Manogaran). In addition, multiple reliable sources do question the objectivity of the Sansoni report.Oz346 (talk) 09:30, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

1) Yes, I will abide by your opinion on whether St. Patrick's College Carnival remains as a separate section.

2) The second issue concerns a newly added content by Cossde which I removed. It's a summary of the Sansoni commission report by another author (Manogaran) which is unnecessary since the summary by another author (Kearney) already exists. Both authors give descriptive summaries of it but remain mute on the overall bias of the report. -- Petextrodon (talk) 10:23, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Fifth statement by moderator (1977 pogrom)

First, my opinion is that a separate subsection on the St. Patrick's College Carnival provides useful background information. Second, if there are any changes that any editor thinks should be made to the article, please state exactly what language in the article you want to change. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:32, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Fifth statements by editors (1977 pogrom)

\\First, my opinion is that a separate subsection on the St. Patrick's College Carnival provides useful background information.\\

Just to clarify, have you noted that the same "background information" is already mentioned in the ethnic pogrom section? Where it is arranged chronologically: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1977_anti-Tamil_pogrom#Jaffna_District

If this information is already provided, why the need for a separate section? I do not quite follow the reason given above for a separate section. Clarification would be appreciated. Thank you. Oz346 (talk) 00:59, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

@Robert_McClenon, I agree with user Oz346 here. It doesn't make much sense to have a separate section with the similar content repeated in a different section (Jaffna District). Background sections don't need to be so overcomplicated as they divert focus from the main topic which is the pogrom. --- Petextrodon (talk) 05:08, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, separate subsection on the St. Patrick's College Carnival provides useful background information on the start of the rioting.

The subsection on the "Presidential Commission of Inquiry" needs to be writing as such:

President William Gopallawa appointed former Chief Justice Miliani Sansoni, who had served as Chief Justice of Ceylon from 1964 to 1966, as the Commissioner of a Presidential Commission of Inquiry on 9 November 1977 to inquire and report on the events "to ascertain the circumstances and the causes that led to, and the nature and particulars of, the incidents which took place in the Island between the 13th day of August, 1977 and the 15th day of September, 1977". Following his inquiry, Justice Sansoni submitted his report, which was known as the "Sansoni Report" to President Jayewardene in July 1980.

Over the years the Sansoni Report has been recived diffrent reviews. Robert N. Kearney found that the Sansoni Report explained the riots in terms of "Sinhalese reaction to Tamil separatist demands, terrorist acts committed in the name of separatism, and anti-Sinhalese statements allegedly made by Tamil politicians in the course of the 1977 general election campaign". According to Chelvadurai Manogaran, the Sansoni Report attributed many factors as the cause of the riots, including "TULFs anti-Sinhalese proganda advocating separatism, Sinhalese extremists' statements claiming that Tamils intended to wipe out the Sinhalese and acts of violence committed by the liberation Tigers". The immediate cause of the violence Manogaran finds is rumor of Sinhalese policemen been attacked in Jaffna by Tamil militants. He further states that due to the violance (in Augest 1977) and events that followed many Tamils both extreme and moderate were convinced the need to establish a separate state.

The Sansoni Report has been criticized for pro-government bias by Rajan Hoole of the University Teachers for Human Rights and T. Sabaratnam in his biography of Velupillai Prabhakaran.

The current content appears to be WP:OR as the refs say something else and based on the opinions of some sources, concluding the report is bias is not how Wikipedia works. Cossde (talk) 09:08, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Sixth statement by moderator (1977 pogrom)

One editor wishes to rework the section on the Presidential Commission of Inquiry, also known as the Samsoni Report, by including a paragraph on positive and negative reviews of the report. Does any other editor oppose the expansion and wish to leave the paragraph unchanged, or does any other editor have an alternate reworking? Robert McClenon (talk) 18:38, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Sixth statements by editors (1977 pogrom)

It is incorrect to say that the current paragraph suggested by Cossde has positive and negative reviews of the report. The so-called "positive reviews" are merely a summary of the reasons given in the Sansoni report. They are neither positive nor negative. Nor are they the personal opinions of Kearney or Manogaran. In fact, they are unnecessary repetition. There is no need to have two secondary sources summarising the same thing in different words. To make this abundantly clear, I have made a table showing this repetition:

Table showing the reasons attributed by Sansoni for the riots (as summarised by Kearney and Manogaran)

Robert N. Kearney	Chelvadurai Manogaran
Sinhalese reaction to Tamil separatist demands	TULFs anti-Sinhalese propaganda advocating separatism
anti-Sinhalese statements allegedly made by Tamil politicians	TULFs anti-Sinhalese propaganda advocating separatism
terrorist acts committed in the name of separatism	acts of violence committed by the liberation Tigers
anti-Sinhalese statements allegedly made by Tamil politicians	Sinhalese extremists' statements claiming that Tamils intended to wipe out the Sinhalese

Repeating the same thing multiple times, especially something controversial, can have a Goebbelsian effect. It is not fitting of an encyclopaedia. Oz346 (talk) 01:02, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

In addition, how does a separate subsection on St. Patrick's College Carnival provide "useful background information" that cannot be provided elsewhere? The same information is already mentioned here: [16] in a more chronological and logical order. Clarification would be appreciated. Thank you. Oz346 (talk) 01:10, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Summarising this table I feel will be WP:OR. For example is Sinhalese reaction to Tamil separatist demands and TULFs anti-Sinhalese propaganda advocating separatism the same thing? Who is confirming this Kearney or Manogaran or Oz346? Lets stick to the writings in the sources, both Kearney and Manogaran has accepted the Sansoni report and presented its findings in their own interpretation which is the case of WP:SECONDARY, Manogaran goes on to added his own observations. Including this along with the contradictory sources is exactly how a Wikipedia article should be written. Cossde (talk) 01:40, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Kearney and Manogaran have not accepted the Sansoni Report. You have misunderstood their texts. They merely recount what the Sansoni reports says. Its original research to say that they have accepted it (or agreed with it). Neither of them do. Oz346 (talk) 01:50, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Kearney states "The 1977 riots were explained in terms of Sinhalese reaction to Tamil separatist demands, terror-ist acts committed in the name of separatism, and anti-Sinhalese statements allegedly made by Tamil politicians in the course of the campaign" citing directly the Sansoni Report and Manogaran states "The reasons for the 1977 anti-Tamil riots were outlined in the

Report ofthe Presidential Commission of Inquiry into the Incidents which TOok Place between 13th August and 15th September, 1977. It attributed the cause to many factors, including the TUlF's antiSinhalese propaganda advocating separatism, Sinhalese extremists' statements claiming that Tamils intended to wipe out the Sinhalese race, and acts of violence committed by the liberation Tigers." citing Arasaratnam. I don't think thats a "merely recount", per my understanding thats not how WP:SECONDARY works. Cossde (talk) 03:25, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Cossde, none of that proves what you're saying. They are just summaries of the report, not meant as personal approval of them by the authors. --- Petextrodon (talk) 05:18, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

@Robert_McClenon, I think we need to you to step in here, since there is a clear disagreement on how WP:SECONDARY works. Cossde (talk) 06:05, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

I agree with Oz346. Kearney and Manogaran both provide summaries of the report and it's repetitive to include both, therefore one of them should be removed. In contrast, the criticism of the report are explicit about the misgivings and are not just intended as summaries. Cossde seems to have difficulties telling the difference. --- Petextrodon (talk) 05:28, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

@Robert_McClenon, I would request that this discussion remains WP:CIVIL, else I cannot proceed with it. I find Petextrodon's comment "difficulties telling the difference" here offensive, especially since Petextrodon has insinuated that I have "comprehension difficulties" [17] in the recent past, I will not accept such personal attacks. Cossde (talk) 06:07, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Russo-Ukrainian War (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Pofka (talk · contribs)
• Mzajac (talk · contribs)
• Slatersteven (talk · contribs)
• Parham wiki (talk · contribs)
• RadioactiveBoulevardier (talk · contribs)
• Cinderella157 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Hello, I and others attempted to reach a WP:Consensus regarding the role of Belarus in the article Russo-Ukrainian War, but the issue is quite complicated and requires a strong, broad and long-term WP:Consensus. I think that in the infobox (and elsewhere in this article) Belarus should be described as a "co-belligerent" or as "Supported by" in the side of Russia in this war (e.g. like that) because of Belarus exceptional role in this war which is already more than just "Supplied by" (e.g. military hardware to Russia).

The role of Belarus in this war is exceptional because during the highly intensified phase of this war since 24 February 2022 (see: Russian invasion of Ukraine), the Russian Army forces were allowed to: 1) invade Ukraine from the Belarusian territory through ground (1, 2); 2) Russian jets have taken off from Belarus (from Belarusian airbases) to subsequently enter Ukraine from Belarusian airspace (3); 3) Belarus allowed Russia full access to its military airbases for Russian military aircraft to launch aircraft and its army installations to shoot artillery and missiles from Belarusian territory towards Ukraine (4, 5); 4) see more info here: Belarusian involvement in the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Consequently, although no evidence was collected that the Armed Forces of Belarus themselves invaded Ukraine (which would make Belarus a full belligerent in this war), the role of Belarus is clearly not equal to other military suppliers (e.g. United States/Germany to Ukraine; Iran/North Korea to Russia) because they have never allowed to use their territories for direct military actions against Ukraine/Russia (and their armies), while Belarus allowed to do that.

Many sources describe Belarus as a "co-belligerent" in this war: Institute for the Study of War (6, 7), Ukrainian sources (8, 9), and others (e.g. 10, 11).

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

• Talk:Russo-Ukrainian War#Belligerents: supported by Belarus (the latest discussion about the role of Belarus where no consensus was reached; started in November 2023)
• Talk:Russo-Ukrainian_War/Archive 20#Belarus' involvement (discussion about the role of Belarus in this war; started in March 2022)
• Talk:Russo-Ukrainian_War/Archive 18#Belarus as a direct participant of the war in the first sentence (discussion about the role of Belarus in this war; started in February 2022)

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

I think that a qualified help is necessary to start a broad WP:RFC discussion (by informing as many users as possible through Wiki projects, etc.) and reach a WP:CONS. I believe that in the upcoming RFC other users should be informed about my arguments provided here in the "Dispute overview" section. To simplify the upcoming RFC voting, I think that the users should be given three options regarding the role of Belarus: A) Co-belligerent; B) Supported by; C) Supplied by.

Summary of dispute by Mzajac

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Slatersteven

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

At its heart, the issue really is not about Belarus, but attempts to claim parity with NATO.

Belarus allowed Russian forces to launch attacks from its soil but did not (as far as I am aware) participate. As such it both did more and less than just supplying arms. This creates a rather odd situation where they are not (technically) a belligerent but also are not uninvolved. Thus is seems that they need a middle-ground approach. Slatersteven (talk) 18:03, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Parham wiki

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by RadioactiveBoulevardier

I doubt that another round of discussions will forge a clearer consensus at this time, despite the passage of some real time and the topic-banning of a major and…polarizing contributor. I think Slatersteven is right about “wait for the historians” (which means big thick hardcover books of sober analysis, not ideology-laced works like those of Timothy Snyder and the infelicitously named Serhii Plokhy).

It sounds like Pofka wants Belarus listed as a co-belligerent. This is, as Cinderella157 said, WP:EXCEPTIONAL (since the term has a specific formal definition). The term has occasionally been bandied about by biased sources like our old friends at ISW (which is, last I checked, still a post-neocon Washington think tank) and stuff but it would be functionally equivalent to listing Belarus along with Russia with no caveats.

This possibility was at multiple points raised by Mzajac and, unlike the use of “supported by” to represent Belarus’ unique status during the initial invasion, was not endorsed by a plurality.

On other pages I’ve already stated quite a lot (although by the metrics a fraction of the amount several others have written). I don’t see the point in rehashing old arguments when diffs are forever.

In fact, I would like to continue the slow fade from talk pages in this topic area. I have better things to do –having already fallen down the rabbit hole that is EE studies at college, I don’t feel like being contrarian and realistic is consistent anymore with the part of me that enjoys sipping tea with cute refugees and erudite dissidents.

I hope some of this late-night stream-of-consciousness has been helpful to the DR process. While I’m not leaving RUSUKR entirely, I’ve pretty much had more than enough of the talk page atmosphere.

Summary of dispute by Cinderella157

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Slatersteven summarises the situation quite well. The evidence omits where Pofka added Belarus to the infobox under the heading of Co-belligerence. It was deleted by me with the summary: A WP:EXCEPTIONAL claim. The status of belligerence is not supported by the body of the article per WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE. There is nuance to co-belligerence here. It is not consistent with the usual meaning - engaged in the fighting. From the discussions, there is clearly no appetite to add Belarus to the infobox as a co-belligerent because it is too nuanced in this instance. Supported by is depricated unless there is an affirmative consensus (RfC) to use it as in Russian invasion of Ukraine. As Russian invasion of Ukraine is a daughter article, of the Russo-Ukrainian War, I am in two minds that the RfC at the invasion article supports inclusion in the war article but other editors have indicated the need for a separate RfC in recent discussions. That is fine. Just start the RfC using the RfC at the invasion article as the template. On a side note, Supplied by in the war article is clearly and end-around the deprecation of "supported by", contrary to the spirit and intent of the RfC deprecating "supported by". It should be removed. Cinderella157 (talk) 03:50, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Robert McClenon, the first question is whether Belarus should be listed at all. The second is how. But the distinction might be moot. My observation is that an RfC to list Belarus under "supported by" would likely gain consensus. An RfC with multiple options would likely result in "no consensus" just because that is commonly how non-binary RfCs conclude. A binary RfC for anything other than "supported by" will not, in my considered opinion, result in "consensus for". This seems to me to be an unusual DR, since the solution is evident - an RfC. It appears to be a case of asking advice on what the RfC should ask, when this usually occurs through TP discussion. My advice is to make an RfC to list Belarus under "supported by". It is better to go with the flow than to try to push shit up-hill with a pointy stick. Cinderella157 (talk) 12:00, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Russo-Ukrainian War discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

Zeroth statement by possible moderator (Ukrainian War)

I am ready to act as the moderator for discussion that may lead to an RFC. We will use DRN Rule D because this dispute involves a contentious topic. Some topic areas in Wikipedia are subject to battleground editing because they have been real battlegrounds in the past. Eastern Europe has been a battleground too many times in the past century and is the bloodiest battleground of the twenty-first century. If you agree to take part in this discussion, you are agreeing that Eastern Europe is a contentious topic.

Are there any questions other than how Belarus should be listed? Robert McClenon (talk) 05:31, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Zeroth statements by editors (Ukrainian War)

Zeroth statement by Pofka

@Robert McClenon: Yes, I fully agree that this contentious topic is highly problematic due to likely disruptive editing and that is why I have requested assistance to reach a long-standing WP:CONS about the role/status of Belarus in this war in order to prevent battleground editing in this article in the future. Currently, I have no additional questions to you Robert.
By the way, in June 2023 Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko claimed that "the only mistake we made’ was not finishing off Ukraine with Russia in 2014" (see: full article), which makes it clear that Lukashenko also tractate the current Ukraine as the enemy of Belarus and seeks for Ukraine's defeat militarily (clearly acting as co-belligerent). I think "co-belligerent" is a suitable middle ground approach for Belarus between belligerents (Russia and Ukraine) and military suppliers (United States, France, Germany, Iran, North Korea, etc.). -- Pofka (talk) 20:44, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

First statement by moderator (Ukrainian War)

One editor has made a statement and thinks that Belarus should be listed as a co-belligerent. There was an opening comment that Belarus should be listed as providing support. If there are no other viewpoints presented, the RFC will ask the community whether to list Belarus as providing support or as a co-belligerent.

Are there any other content issues? Robert McClenon (talk) 07:04, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

First statements by editors (Ukrainian War)

First statement by Cinderella157

A proposed RfC must explicitly state something to effect: "Should Belarus be listed in the belligerent section of the info box with Russia: a) no, b) without qualification, c) under a heading of Co-belligerent, or d) under a heading supported by".

To choice a), listing Belarus as providing support or as a co-belligerent is not actually a binary question. Belarus is not listed at present. Continuing to not list it is an option.

To choice b) where multiple belligerents are listed in the same column of the infobox, they are ipso facto co-belligerents, by which, listing Belarus under an explicit heading of "co-belligerent" is redundant, if not ambiguous.

Trying to list Belarus under an explicit heading of co-belligerent is ambiguous and would attempt to convey nuance for which the infobox is totally unsuited. Such a proposal will (in my humble and experienced opinion) be shot down in flames faster than a SCUD missile heading for Jerusalem. If Pofka wants to continue to push this uphill with a pointy stick, then all I can say is knock your socks off (ie - go ahead). Cinderella157 (talk) 10:29, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Second statement by moderator (Ukrainian War)

Is there agreement that the RFC should state something to effect: "Should Belarus be listed in the belligerent section of the info box with Russia: a) no, b) without qualification, c) under a heading of Co-belligerent, or d) under a heading supported by".?

Are there any other proposals for what the RFC should ask? Are there any other content issues? Robert McClenon (talk) 00:35, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Second statements by editors (Ukrainian War)

Second statement by Pofka

@Robert McClenon: I mostly agree with the upcoming RFC voting choices suggestion described in your second statement (according to Cinderella157's first statement above), but I think that Belarus should be described as "co-belligerent" not only in the infobox of this article, but elsewhere in the article as well (otherwise it would likely violate infobox guidelines). Moreover, I repeat once again that information and sources from my initial statement ("Dispute overview" section) should be also provided in the upcoming RFC (before these a, b, c, d voting choices) because many users-voters might not be fully familiar with the role of Belarus in this war and why it is significantly different from other military suppliers (e.g. United States/Iran). Here is how I think the RFC should look like:

Extended content

This RFC was initiated because it is necessary to reach a strong WP:CONS in article Russo-Ukrainian War regarding the role of Belarus in this war. The role of Belarus in this war is quite exceptional because during the highly intensified phase of this war since 24 February 2022 (see: Russian invasion of Ukraine) the Russian Army forces were allowed to: 1) invade Ukraine from the Belarusian territory through ground (1, 2); 2) Russian jets have taken off from Belarus (from Belarusian airbases) to subsequently enter Ukraine from Belarusian airspace (3); 3) Belarus allowed Russia full access to its military airbases for Russian military aircraft to launch aircraft and its army installations to shoot artillery and missiles from Belarusian territory towards Ukraine (4, 5); 4) see more information in dedicated article: Belarusian involvement in the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Consequently, although no evidence was collected that the Armed Forces of Belarus themselves invaded Ukraine (which would possibly make Belarus a full belligerent in this war), the role of Belarus is possibly not equal to other military suppliers (e.g. United States/Germany to Ukraine; Iran/North Korea to Russia) because they have never allowed to use their territories for direct military actions against Ukraine/Russia (and their armies), while Belarus allowed to do that. Moreover, in June 2023 Belarusian President Alexander Lukashenko claimed that "the only mistake we made’ was not finishing off Ukraine with Russia in 2014" (see: full article). Popular sources already describe Belarus as a "co-belligerent" in this war: Institute for the Study of War (6, 7), Ukrainian sources (e.g. 8, 9), and others (e.g. 10, 11). Please provide your opinion how Belarus should be described in article Russo-Ukrainian War (in the infobox and elsewhere in this article where events since 24 February 2022 related with Belarus are described): A) not as belligerent (in the infobox and content of this article); B) without qualification (in the infobox and content of this article); C) as co-belligerent in Russia's side (in the infobox and content of this article); D) under a heading "supported by" in Russia's side in the infobox and as military supplier of Russia in content of this article.

@Cinderella157: @RadioactiveBoulevardier: what do you think about such RFC text suggested by me above? -- Pofka (talk) 21:08, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Third statement by moderator (Ukrainian War)

I have created a draft RFC for review, at Talk:Russo-Ukrainian War/RFC on Listing of Belarus. Please review and comment on it. It is not an active RFC, and has tags to deactivate it until it is moved to the article talk page. Do not !vote in it. Comment on it here, not in it.

Are there any other questions? Robert McClenon (talk) 10:14, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Third statements by editors (Ukrainian War)

Third statement by Pofka

@Robert McClenon: If you think that a more extensive explanation why the role of Belarus is likely exceptional in this war should not be included, then I think the RFC draft (Talk:Russo-Ukrainian War/RFC on Listing of Belarus) should be at least modified like that: "Should Belarus be listed in the infobox (and accordingly described in other parts of the article concerning the events since 24 January 2024): (a). no (as at present); (b) as supported by; (c) as a co-belligerent; (d) without qualification?" The RFC should not be simplified only towards the infobox but must cover the whole article because with the provided RFC draft of yours, Robert, we will most likely be voting to violate/ignore WP:INFOBOX guidelines or no because information provided in the infobox must be described in the body of the article as well. We cannot vote to whenever describe Belarus as a co-belligerent in the infobox only, but not elsewhere in the article, so I disagree with your currently proposed RFC draft, Robert. Please add my suggested green text with a wiki link to article Russian invasion of Ukraine to RFC draft and then I will support it. -- Pofka (talk) 14:50, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Fourth statement by moderator (Ukrainian War)

User:Pofka - Please do not attribute positions to the moderator or lecture the moderator. I have no specific desire to present the role of Belarus in this war as exceptional. I think that you do, and I am trying to work to ask the community if they agree with you. If you want to help me help you, you can do it by not being harsh in your correction.

I have revised the draft RFC in accordance with your comments, and am now asking you and the other editors to comment further on whether it is ready to go live. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:38, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

Fourth statements by editors (Ukrainian War)

Fourth statement by Pofka

@Robert McClenon: Sorry if I sounded harsh. I was just trying to explain how I think the question in the upcoming RFC should be presented. I fully agree with the updated RFC draft, but I think there is a grammatic mistake with that dot between "in the infobox. and accordingly". Shouldn't it be a comma or brackets? -- Pofka (talk) 09:11, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Fifth statement by moderator (Ukrainian War)

I have unarchived this thread. If there are no further comments on the draft RFC within 24 hours, I will move it into the article talk page and enable it to be a live RFC. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:46, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Fifth statements by editors (Ukrainian War)

Fifth statement by Pofka

@Robert McClenon: Just my final thoughts. I think we should make a minor non-disputed addition to the upcoming RFC text: "Should Belarus be listed in the infobox in Russia's side, and accordingly described in other parts of the article concerning the events since 24 January 2024: (a). no (as at present); (b) as supported by; (c) as a co-belligerent; (d) without qualification?". From the start it was not disputed that Lukashenko's Belarus is an ally/supporter of Russia, not Ukraine, so I think it can be added without further discussion. However, I think this minor addition should be made to make the RFC 100% clear and to avoid controversy in the future. -- Pofka (talk) 18:00, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Ziyavudin Magomedov (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Spotted springer7 (talk · contribs)
• Odlanier2024 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

The dispute relates to the page of Ziyavudin Magomedov, a Russian oligarch imprisoned in Russia. I’ve had several disagreements with a fellow editor, Odlainer2024, over recent months and despite the fact we’ve traded several long messages on the Talk Page we haven’t reached a consensus. I’ve tried to integrate many of Odlainer2024’s suggestions, but we don’t seem to be getting anywhere. The dispute is quite complex, but written as briefly as possible it essentially boils down to:

• The length of the lead section, and the prominence/due weight given to claims which are either: a) not relevant enough for the first paragraph, b) reproduced in a very similar form elsewhere in the article or c) overly detailed/obscure for the lead section.

• Along similar lines, there’s a question about the due weight/prominence given to certain material. This is primarily within the "Career" section, as well as the proposed “proximity to Putin’s regime” section. This proposed section details every potential connection Magomedov, or family members had to the “Russian elite” prior to his arrest which I’ve argued creates a misleading impression for readers. A very detailed breakdown of the problems here, and Odlainer2024’s responses can be found on the Talk Page.

• The length and use of quotes which are often several lines long and not properly summarised and contextualised. This means that the contents of the quotes are often deployed as an appendage to re-iterate/emphasise a particular narrative.

There are also disagreements about the approach to editing the page, and in some places, the actual content/sourcing and language used. I’m happy to provide more detail, but there is already a very detailed Talk Page discussion. The most relevant material will probably be found in recent posts.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Extensive discussion has occurred on the Talk Page.

I did also post on this noticeboard a few weeks ago, but the discussion was seemingly closed down (I don't know why - it just says the topic has been deleted - i can't see any explanation, so I've posted again - is there any other place to post this sort of thing?).

[23]

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

I think both Odlanier_2024 and I want to reach a consensus but have disagreements about the due weight given to certain areas of the page which need a third-party to weigh in on.

Summary of dispute by Odlanier2024

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Ziyavudin Magomedov discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Mainstreet Research (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Ontlib20 (talk · contribs)
• Funnyfarmofdoom (talk · contribs)
• Yeeno (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

I have followed the page for Mainstreet Research of and on for the past 7 years. I noticed that shortly after a polling error occurred in Calgary in 2017, that a full section was added to that company page referencing the error, then in 2019 when another error took place, it was added.

As someone who works in this field in Canada, I am familiar with both polling arror and the industry. Instead of being considered a subject matter expert, I am accused of conflict howevere. When I made the initial edit, I posted this message as the basis for the edits to the editor who reverted the document (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Ontlib20)

I have cited every other public opinion firm page available, and cited "Controversies" each was involved with, yet this one firm is the only one with a section dedicated to it's polling errors. All polling firms have errors, it is a statistical gusrantee that this happens.

Now I am being threatened with having my editing ability restricted. I have clearly explained multiple times with citations on why I believe the edit is reasonable.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

The discussion is here, it escalated to a threat pretty quickly, I don't believe either editor is familiar with either a) Canada or b) the polling industry and it appears nobody took the time to read my detailed response.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Ontlib20

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Allow my edits and stop threatening me, I have cited all the other industry pages, this feels like personal and malicious content. Or ask the editors who are insisting on the section staying to post all the polling errors for all polling firms, be consistent.

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A9ger_(company) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanos_Research - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forum_Research - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abacus_Data - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ekos_Research_As

Summary of dispute by Funnyfarmofdoom

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Summary of dispute by Yeeno

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Mainstreet Research discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

• Volunteer Note - The filing editor has not notified the other editors on their user talk pages. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:48, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• California High-Speed Rail (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Robert92107 (talk · contribs)
• Nweil (talk · contribs)
• Shannon1 (talk · contribs)
• XavierItzm (talk · contribs)
• Citing (talk · contribs)
• DracaenaGuianensis (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

How much refenceability is allowed in an article?

Consider the following two paragraphs:

- - - - - - - - The CAHSR Authority has requested that trainsets built for the line meet the following specifications, among others: a maximum testing speed of 242 mph (389 km/h), a lifespan of at least 30 years, the ability to operate two trainsets as a single "consist" (a long train) which is no longer than about 680 feet (210 m), have at least 450 seats and carry eight bicycles, earthquake safety systems for safe stopping and exiting, business class and ordinary seating as well as child-friendly family areas, food service, and on-board Wifi and train information displays.

[PP] The train design, its development program, and procurement timeline is shown in more detail in a presentation to the Board in February 2024.[61]

- - - - - - - -

Does the second paragraph contravene Wikipedia rules? This is an example of an important issue, since there are a number of links to external sources where more information on that topic is available.

Thanks for your input.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Talk:California High-Speed Rail#Clean-up and Harmonization Talk:California High-Speed Rail#This article is a mess

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

(1) I think there is a great deal of value in providing references to more information in external links.

(2) CAHSR is undergoing a lot of different activities now. The project is not static, so an entirely historic perspective is inadequate. So, I think that timely/transitory information (which will eventually be deleted/replaced) should be provided.

My inclination is to try to do these, not whether or not they should be done.

What is the consensus on this?

Summary of dispute by Nweil

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Shannon1

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by XavierItzm

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by Citing

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Summary of dispute by DracaenaGuianensis

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

California High-Speed Rail discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

• (To potentially help answer your question, WP:Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. Articles should generally be written for a general audience.) Remsense诉 00:44, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
• Volunteer Note - The filing editor has not notified the other editors on their user talk pages. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:27, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• List of 2023–24 Premiership Rugby transfers (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• LouisOrr27 (talk · contribs)
• NikeCage68 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

The user is removing content which is notable enough to be on the page without providing reasoning, I have tried discussing this on the talk page with the user but they keep reverting the edits without reason or replying on the talk page.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Talk:List_of_2023–24_Premiership_Rugby_transfers#Monty_Bradbury_&_Lovejoy_Chawatama

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Provide a third opinion and explain to the user that they should provide edit summaries or use the talk page in a content dispute.

Summary of dispute by NikeCage68

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

List of 2023–24 Premiership Rugby transfers discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Seamus Heaney (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Thedarkknightli (talk · contribs)
• Martinevans123 (talk · contribs)
• Anna Roy (talk · contribs)
• Ceoil (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

There's an ongoing dispute on whether we should include Heaney's notable works in the infobox. Of the 4 editors involved, 2 support the inclusion and the other (including myself) oppose it. Martinevans123 has suggested keeping the information on a collapsed list.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Talk:Seamus Heaney#This reversal

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

I hope we can reach a consensus on this. Some advice on handling this kind of situations would be appreciated.

Summary of dispute by Martinevans123

I think the seven works listed should appear in the infobox, in a collapsed list if necessary, especially as they are all linked to articles of their own. I'm not too bothered about the list of awards, which I suspect the average reader would be far less interested in. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:29, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

I'm fine with major works being included and uncollasped. Not fond of the awards however. Meaningless trinklets and they make the whole box so long :( Ceoil (talk) 18:35, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Anna Roy

I wasn't aware we were having a dispute. Some people think some infobox details some people useful to add, some people are anti info box detail on point of principle. No big deal. Anna (talk) 18:19, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Summary of dispute by Ceoil

This is a routine content dispute, and not a very heated one as I recall. My preference is that infoboxes for writers, if we have to have them, should be as brieft as possible (see discussion and resolution for James Joyce), but not include sections like "notable works" which necessarily require editorial judgement. That said, I don't really care that much either; a benefit might that if the works included have separate articles, then having the links so prominent might attract readers to explore further. Anyway, fine with either outcome. Also to say, I think all parties here have been acting in good faith (Martin I know for years, Anna is a very solid and skilled contributor). Ceoil (talk) 18:15, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I'm quite unskilled and a bit liquid/ gaseous, alas. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:33, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Seamus Heaney discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

I’ve become a more frequent visitor to this page than I’d wish! But being here, and seeing this, I have to say it seems an odd referral. There’s a perfectly collegiate discussion on the article Talkpage, and all of the editors, three of whom I know, seem amenable to compromise. I’d think it very likely that an appropriate outcome could have been agreed without bringing the issue to formal dispute resolution. KJP1 (talk) 19:09, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

You could just take up residence here, KJP1, and stoppeth one of three? Only my second visit here in 17 years, but I have to commend Thedarkknightli on the efficiency of this quick meeting. All now sorted. More disputes should be like this. There was an owl liv'd in an oak.... Martinevans123 (talk) 20:26, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Its all now moot and resolved given this evenings agreement between myself and Thedarkknight that the infobox includes a few major works but no accolades.[34][35]. Thedarkknight, who has one of the coolest user-names on wiki, was probably overly litigious, but no harm done. Ceoil (talk) 23:01, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Zeroth question by volunteer (Seamus Heaney)

Has the article content issue been resolved by discussion? If so, thank you. If not, please read DRN Rule A, and then I will ask some other questions. Has this issue been resolved? Robert McClenon (talk) 02:51, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Zeroth statements by editors (Seamus Heaney)

Yes...now resolved by parties Ceoil (talk) 03:09, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Morocco (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• NAADAAN (talk · contribs)
• Skitash (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

The infobox in the article for Morocco gives ethnic statistics from a 2012 business brochure as added by Skitash, I removed this from the infobox arguing that this wasn't a category in the census and there weren't reliable enough sources, and whatever I was able to find contradicted one another, this is alongside the near-impossible task of distinguishing the Arab and Berber populations of Morocco. I hence deemed this too nuanced and controversial to be able to be conveyed through simple numbers, that it was better to remove it and elaborate further and give a nuanced view in the Demographics section of the article. Skitash reverted the edits and a heated argument ensued on the talk page which led us, despite some attempts to compromise, to run around in circles with no resolution. On the talk page, @Moxy agreed that such statistics shouldn't be included in the infobox. Despite this and after a failed attempt to raise this to WP:3O, Skitash has insisted on reverting all removals on the basis that "no consensus had been reached".

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

Talk:Morocco#"Ethnic_groups"_in_infobox, raised to WP:3O but was unfruitful

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

I trust the volunteers on the noticeboard to find a mutually convenient solution, as I have failed to do on many occasions.

Summary of dispute by Skitash

NAADAAN is insisting on the removal of the long-standing ethnic group parameter from the article, which has been in place for over a year, on the grounds of insufficient reliable sources. Contrary to this claim, I have provided numerous sources that consider all ethnic groups and establish an ethnic percentage range of 65-70% Arab and 30-35% Berber. In response, NAADAAN has presented their own sources, but I have pointed out that the sources they provided are either unreliable, inaccurate, or exhibit WP:UNDUE bias by focusing excessively on a single ethnic group.

Moreover, we have already reached a consensus regarding Morocco's ethnic composition on Talk:Moroccans#Third Opinion? a few months ago, with a nearly unanimous agreement on the established ethnic percentage range. In our efforts to find a middle ground, NAADAAN suggested adding a nationality parameter like the France article, although I pointed out the incompatibility of such an approach for the Morocco article, given the country's multi-ethnic and heterogeneous population, unlike France, where nationality is intertwined with ethnicity. The user also suggested using linguistical statistics based on estimates, when these would be contradicted by the official Moroccan census that explicitly states that 92% of the population speaks Arabic while 26% speaks Berber. In conclusion, I don't believe NAADAAN's proposal to omit ethnic statistics would be beneficial to the article in any way, especially considering that the articles for Morocco's neighboring countries such as Algeria, Tunisia and Libya do include ethnic group parameters with percentage ranges that largely align with those of Morocco. Skitash (talk) 21:48, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Egypt has had its ethnic statistics omitted since 2013(!) despite possibly being as multi-cultural as Morocco. I was unaware of the dispute on Talk:Moroccans#Third Opinion? and nowhere was it mentioned in previous attempts to resolve the dispute, I can gladly offer a myriad of sources contradicting one another but this doesn't involve the infobox on Morocco. I proposed putting linguistic estimates as well as estimates about ethnicity in the body of the article, I'm sorry if that was not clear. NAADAAN (talk) 22:47, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Egyptians are considered a distinct ethnic group per Egyptians and constitute 99.7% of the population of Egypt, thereby making Egypt a homogenous country unlike Morocco. Moroccans can belong to various ethnic groups; what unites them is their citizenship or nationality to the Kingdom of Morocco. These two cases are clearly different. I have informed you of the discussion on Talk:Moroccans here. Skitash (talk) 23:24, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

There's a difference between Copts, Nubians and Arabs in Egypt is there not? Seems like I overlooked the paragraph about the last discussion, my bad. NAADAAN (talk) 00:12, 25 March 2024 (UTC)

Morocco discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.