Talk:Boeing 737 MAX - Wikipedia

The 737-900 and now max10 announcement confirm the blunder of cancelling the 757, which was more capable, and rode better in turbulence. Dmp717200 (talk) 20:17, 13 January 2017 (UTC)Reply

Talk pages are not forums for discussing the topic, or your opinions on the topic. - BilCat (talk) 20:49, 13 January 2017 (UTC)Reply

They could be for proposing an addition ... so one addition could be 737max vs 757 as implied by Dmp717200 202.87.170.66 (talk) 13:44, 11 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

Phrasal adjectives (also called compound adjectives) are hyphenated. When a number of words together modify or describe a noun [in this case "fuel"], the phrase is ordinarily hyphenated. If two or more consecutive words make sense only when understood together as an adjective modifying a noun, hyphenate those words.

Therefor, hyphenate two or more words when they come before a noun they modify and act as a single idea, as in these phrases (in boldface): "The 41:1 overall pressure ratio, increased from 28:1 and advanced hot-section materials enabling higher operating temperatures permit a 15% reduction in thrust-specific fuel consumption (TSFC) along 20% lower carbon emissions, 50% lower nitrogen-oxide emissions, but each weighs 849 lb (385 kg) more at 6,129 lb (2,780 kg).[22]"; and in, "The smaller Leap-1B engine will weigh less and have a lower frontal area but a lower bypass ratio leading to a higher thrust-specific fuel consumption than the 78 in (200 cm) Leap-1A of the A320neo.[citation needed]"

I think this settles the matter; please revert your reversion!

Someone else can fix the link, preferably the author of the article. Autodidact1 (talk) 22:22, 4 September 2017 (UTC)Reply

Industry terms don't always follow grammar rules. Please provide reliable published sources showing the usage of the term "thrust specific fuel consumption" with a hyphen. Thanks. - BilCat (talk) 23:21, 4 September 2017 (UTC)Reply

I think Autodidact1's point is that the default should be normal grammar. It's the industry-specific deviation that should require a source. 204.194.77.3 (talk)

• No, the industry wording is used in the published sources such as from Flight, Aviation Week and the like. -Fnlayson (talk) 13:51, 11 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

BUT the problem is that without hyphenation, there is no clue as to what "specific" applies to. But there doesn't seem to be a reason to use jargon .. its strongly implied that the fuel flow rate is what determines thrust.. (which is fuel per unit time, not mileage which is fuel per unit distance.) 202.87.170.66 (talk) 13:49, 11 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

Like with Lion Air last year, a Boeing 737 800 MAX used by Ethiopian Airlines has crashed, killing over 150 people. Leo1pard (talk) 11:44, 10 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

Did you read the article? it is already mentioned. MilborneOne (talk) 12:53, 10 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

Why are there so many problems with this aircraft model's airspeed indicators? 173.88.241.33 (talk) 21:18, 10 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

Not really relevant to this talk page as this page is for article improvement, you could try a forum like pprune or similar as this is an encyclopedia not a forum. MilborneOne (talk) 13:58, 11 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

Fnlayson, please explain your lead edit to disregard flight system under scrutiny for both crashes:

The MAX 8 has been involved in two crashes^[1] in which there were no survivors. In both incidents, the MCAS (Maneuvering Characteristics Augmentation System) of the aircraft is particularly under scrutiny for faultiness. The Federal Aviation Administration of the United States issued an emergency order^[2] concerning the system, which details a scenario in which erroneous flight data from the angle of attack sensors could cause the nose to pitch down and initiate an unrecoverable stall, especially at lower altitudes. The emergency operation directive included giving the flight crew horizontal stabilizer trim procedures to neutralize any similar scenario.

You said it lacked sourcing and it is out of place, but yet if you view pages for the DC10, or 787, for example, you will see information such as this in the lead. Also, sourcing is there for the claims and no certainty of the MCAS was stated. Thank you.

Reverted edit until further discussion is had by users. I contest the MCAS should be mentioned in the lead paragraphs. I would also attest to the fact that the two crashes should be detailed further in the lead as in the 787 battery troubles and DC10 cargo door problems in their respective Wikipedia pages (as an example). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Curivity (talk • contribs) 23:02, 10 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

Edits are being reverted. What does the community think? Should we put MCAS issues in the lead paragraphs?— Preceding unsigned comment added by Curivity (talk • contribs) 23:06, 10 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

What you added in the lead is too detailed for a summary. The Lead is supposed to summarize the body of the article and not introduce new information (see MOS:LEAD for more). Also, the text starting at "concerning the system" is not clearly cited since it follows the references. I moved this text and refs to Accidents section and shortened/reworded. -Fnlayson (talk) 23:42, 10 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

Fnlayson Yes, I understand. I wasn't presenting new information in the lead as the MCAS issues have already been introduced and described in the body. I maintain we should describe the specific faults in the lead as we learn more information.

I was on this flight - UA1168 left engine caught fire in flight - airplane made emergency landing at Houston (original destination). Everyone evacuated safely to the tarmac. Kmajmudar (talk) 07:49, 11 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

Sounds like a minor incident and therefore not notable; "I was on this flight" is WP:OR; there does seem to be a report at [1] but I can't access it (probably due to poor GDPR compliance by small US news sites) to read the details. Rosbif73 (talk) 08:11, 11 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

I don't remember having seen this usage before, and it seems unnecessary here. Suspension of operations is no doubt temporary; it is briefly described in the Accidents and incidents section, and the full list of airlines that have suspended operations is given on the Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 in any case. Thoughts, anyone? Rosbif73 (talk) 11:24, 11 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

I haven't either. Some editors seem to be going to extremes here. -Fnlayson (talk) 13:54, 11 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

I have recently removed a large table of "grounded" airlines from the accident article, it has been reverted. MilborneOne (talk) 14:09, 11 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

I have removed the operators section, it has just been added to make a point, a sub-article for orders and delivieries was sufficient last week. MilborneOne (talk) 14:16, 11 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

Boeing 737 MAX → Boeing 737 Max – MOS:TM / MOS:ALLCAPS. I count about 35 sources that are cited in the article that have "Max" in their titles (with mixed case). That is a large number. I see no indication that the all-caps "MAX" is anything other than a promotional styling. The company's self-published material follows the all-caps, but we should pay more attention to independent sources. Wikipedia guidelines say to use ordinary English styling in such a situation where the sources are mixed. (I note that there was some prior discussion of this issue in 2012, although not a formal RM discussion, which is archived in Talk:Boeing 737 MAX/Archive 1#Boeing 737 Max or Boeing 737 MAX?.) —BarrelProof (talk) 21:13, 11 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

• Oppose - "737 MAX" is the company's aircraft designation, not a name as such, therefore it is exempt from the guidelines. The company has every right to call an aircraft what it choses, and that is "737 MAX". - BilCat (talk) 21:31, 11 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

@BilCat: according to the United States Patent and Trademark Office,[2] it is a trademark registered by Boeing for use on aircraft, so we need to comply with Wikipedia policy for article names containing trademarks for this. -- DeFacto (talk). 21:07, 12 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

• Strong oppose Wikipedia:Naming conventions (capitalization) states "Do not capitalize the second or subsequent words in an article title, unless the title is a proper name". 737 MAX with "MAX" being all caps is the proper name as that's how Boeing named it. We should keep with the proper name. funplussmart (talk) 21:40, 11 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

Comment: Both of the above comments seem like some variation of just saying "it's official!" Is there something more to it than that? Also, the WP:NCCAPS remark about capitalizing proper names is only about capitalizing the first letter of a word, not about using all-caps, and also I believe this isn't strictly a proper name since there are hundreds of these airplanes – please see the "Corvette" example in the Proper noun article. —BarrelProof (talk) 21:54, 11 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

There are also hundreds of thousands of Corvettes. Also, if "Boeing 737 MAX" is substituted for "Chevrolet Corvette", that paragraph would read the same. So I'm not sure what your point is in mentioning that. Also, if this article is retitled, then there are several other aircraft and military articles that would have to be retitled, including the Airbus A320neo page (to Airbus A320 Neo). (Note that Airbus A320 NEO would be allowed, as it is an acronym, if these guidelines applied to designations, had Airbus chosen that style.) Oddly, no one has ever proposed changing the A320neo article's title. Curious. - BilCat (talk) 22:10, 11 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

See also Airbus A330neo. - BilCat (talk) 22:14, 11 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

You asked what is my point in mentioning the Corvette example. It is that that the proper noun article notes that "Corvette (referring to a car produced by the company Chevrolet) is not a proper name" and "Similarly, Chevrolet Corvette is not a proper name." And "Boeing 737 MAX" is also not a proper name. So the boldfaced guidance above about what to do with a proper name is irrelevant to this discussion. —BarrelProof (talk) 22:18, 11 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

I figured out why. :) - BilCat (talk) 22:25, 11 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

This is referring to capitalising the first letter. There would be no other reason for it to start from the "second word". It is not referring to all caps. - Estoy Aquí (talk) 20:42, 12 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

• Strong support per the nomination and further supported by WP:TITLETM and MOS:TMSTYLE, and exemplified in Mini (marque), an article about the car that BMW call "MINI". "MAX" may be the way Boeing choose to stylise the name, but normal English, as evidenced in a multitude of secondary references, is to write "Max". -- DeFacto (talk). 22:27, 11 March 2019 (UTC)Reply
• Strong support Advertising copywriters write "MAX"; journalists write "Max". We're writing an encyclopedia here, not trying to sell airplanes. TypoBoy (talk) 01:57, 12 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

Not necessarily, a google search will show news sources do not unanimously use "Max", many do capitalize all the letters. funplussmart (talk) 04:03, 12 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

You're right that some sources write "Max" and others write "MAX". The relevant Wikipedia policy here is WP:TITLETM, and it says we should follow standard practice (that is, "Max") "unless the trademarked spelling is demonstrably the most common usage in sources independent of the owner of the trademark". Your observation therefore supports the move. TypoBoy (talk) 14:19, 12 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

• Support (agreed): Reputable aviation press such as Flight Global use "Max" and "Max 8", a recent example is here. zmm (talk) 07:39, 12 March 2019 (UTC)Reply
• Support: Per WP:TITLETM, stylized titles are typically noted in the lede, whilst the title of the article remains as it is expected by the convention. Thus, there should be a sentence that goes something like Boeing 737 Max, often styled as Boeing 737 MAX, ... etc.BrxBrx(talk)^{(please reply with {{SUBST:re|BrxBrx}})} 06:16, 12 March 2019 (UTC)Reply
• Strong oppose That some journalists don't get the name correct isn't a good argument for making it incorrect here, too, in my opinion. Mainstream news coverage of aviation is of notoriously poor quality. The correct name, per Boeing, is Boeing 737 MAX. News sources that are more reputable in aviation matters typically use the correct name with the capitalization. For example, Aviation Week's tag page for the Boeing 737 MAX uses the capitalization, as do most of their article titles that you can see listed there. Even well-known frequent flyer blogs like View from the Wing, One Mile at a Time, and The Points Guy correctly use the all-caps. While I apparently can't link those here, you can do a Google site search on their domains to confirm. Vbscript2 (talk) 08:24, 12 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

@Vbscript2: but Wiki policy for article titles at WP:TITLETM explicitly says Article titles follow standard English text formatting in the case of trademarks, unless the trademarked spelling is demonstrably the most common usage in sources independent of the owner of the trademark. Items in full or partial uppercase (such as Invader ZIM) should have standard capitalization (Invader Zim); however, if the name is ambiguous, and one meaning is usually capitalized, this is one possible method of disambiguation. We are bound by that. -- DeFacto (talk). 09:05, 12 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

It seems that it is demonstrably the most common usage among sources that actually know what they're talking about. The usage of all upper-case seems relatively consistent among sources that are reputable in aviation-related matters. AvHerald is another example. Like I said before, some reporters who aren't very knowledgeable of aviation getting it wrong seems like a rather poor justification for making it incorrect here, too. I would also disagree about being 'bound' by WP:TITLETM. There's also WP:IGNORE to consider. Though, in this case, I think keeping the all caps does follow at least the spirit of the "demonstrably the most common usage" language in WP:TITLETM. Vbscript2 (talk) 16:17, 12 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

Also of note, the US Federal Aviation Administration, the UK Civil Aviation Authority, the Air Line Pilots Association, and the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association all use "MAX", not "Max." The usage seems mostly consistent among sources that are actually reputable in aviation matters. Vbscript2 (talk) 16:29, 12 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

• Oppose. The manufacturer refers to this model as 737 MAX.[3] We are required to use WP:COMMONNAME. WWGB (talk) 11:22, 12 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

@WWGB: there are no plans to change the name, so it will still comply with WP:COMMONNAME. The change proposed is to write it using standard English capitalisation per WP:TITLETM, another part of the naming policy which we are required to use. -- DeFacto (talk). 16:19, 12 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

• Oppose. Uppercase MAX definitely is common usage, though admittedly not universal among reliable sources. In any case WP:TITLETM is inconsistently applied (e.g. we let easyJet get away with their camelcase styling despite relatively common usage to the contrary), and WP:IGNORE tells us that improving Wikipedia should take priority over individual rules. Rosbif73 (talk) 12:06, 12 March 2019 (UTC)Reply
• Oppose. Multiple reliable independent sources, like Reuters, Time magazine and the Wall Street Journal use the all-caps MAX form. Eilidhmax (talk) 13:17, 12 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

According to Wikipedia guidelines, the question isn't whether you can find some independent sources that use the all-caps styling. It is whether there are independent sources that don't. Actually, the article in The Wall Street Journal that is cited in this article uses "Max". So do the cited articles of BBC and The Guardian (plus the 35 that have it in their headlines). —BarrelProof (talk) 13:33, 12 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

The question is not whether there are some that do or some that don't, it is whether the trademarked usage is demonstrably the most common (per WP:TITLETM, though that is not the only applicable guideline). Rosbif73 (talk) 13:45, 12 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

Yes, I suppose I was focusing on MOS:TM, which is phrased a bit differently: "examine styles already in use by independent reliable sources. From among those, choose the style that most closely resembles standard English – regardless of the preference of the trademark owner. Do not invent new styles that are not used by independent reliable sources. ... Follow standard English text formatting and capitalization practices, even if the trademark owner considers nonstandard formatting "official", as long as this is a style already in widespread use, rather than inventing a new one". I think the 35+ identified sources are sufficient to demonstrate widespread use. (The degree of independence of the sources is also important, of course.) —BarrelProof (talk) 14:50, 12 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

• Support WP:TITLETM is clear we use standard formatting unless a majority of reliable sources do not do so. Here are some sources that do use standard formatting (aka the proposed title): Washington Post NY Times The Guardian BBC The Associated Press. Calidum 15:08, 12 March 2019 (UTC)Reply
• Oppose This is Boeing's designation. Using this same logic, we would rename the Fairchild Republic A-10 Thunderbolt II article to A-10 Warthog, since that seems to be the popular name. --rogerd (talk) 15:10, 12 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

That specific analogy would be relevant only if this article would refer to the frequent spelling as Max somewhere in the first few lines (like the A-10 article does). Since it does not, the analogy is at best flawed. Arnoutf (talk) 15:24, 12 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

@Rogerd: the proposal isn't to change the designation though, the only change proposed is to write it in standard English - to conform with the Wikipedia article naming policy at WP:TITLETM. There is nothing though to stop us qualifying it at the top of the article, to explain how Boeing stylise it per MOS:TMSTYLE. -- DeFacto (talk). 16:13, 12 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

I stand by my original argument, that the manufacturer's designation should be used. --rogerd (talk) 16:21, 12 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

@Rogerd: given that, according to move request closing instructions: Consensus is determined not just by considering the preferences of the participants in a given discussion, but also by evaluating their arguments, assigning due weight accordingly, and giving due consideration to the relevant consensus of the Wikipedia community in general as reflected in applicable policy, guidelines and naming conventions, Which of Wikipedia's policies, guidelines or naming conventions are you relying on to support your "original argument"? -- DeFacto (talk). 19:43, 12 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

The all uppercase usage is the common usage on many sites as demonstrated by others here. --rogerd (talk) 22:43, 12 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

• Oppose as per the last discussion we had on this earlier when it was confirmed from sources close to Boeing that MAX is not an acronym or a captialisation of Max just a Boeing marketing name. MilborneOne (talk) 19:06, 12 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

Can you supply a link to that previous discussion please. -- DeFacto (talk). 19:46, 12 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

Look on this talk page's archive page. -Fnlayson (talk) 20:20, 12 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

This item from 2012 then, I guess. -- DeFacto (talk). 20:30, 12 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

MilborneOne the argument there in 2012 assumes that the requirement to use standard English is only a MOS guideline, and so can be ignored. Now, in 2019, WP:TITLETM is official Wikipedia policy, and trumps MOS guidelines and project conventions, so really needs to be complied with I think, regardless of how we characterise the nature of Boeing's use of the word. -- DeFacto (talk). 20:51, 12 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

• Support - Clearly a stylisation. Move to standardised form per MOSTM - Estoy Aquí (talk) 20:43, 12 March 2019 (UTC)Reply
• Support - Unless MAX is an initialism for something, regular mixed case should be used. Trivialist (talk) 22:21, 12 March 2019 (UTC)Reply
• Oppose - I think that it the way Boeing using it as a trademark. It just how we know it as. However, I agree with some of the "support" comments. But I want to oppose it for now. GCunknown (talk) 03:49, 13 March 2019 (UTC)Reply
• Oppose - It is the registered trademarked name. It is the name also on all regulatory certifications, licenses etc. --Bohbye (talk) 07:19, 13 March 2019 (UTC)Reply
• Oppose Per WP:NCCAPS, proper names are exceptions for non-capitalizing in article titles. MAX is a proper name here, so correctly capitalized, even if other sources use inconsistent capitalization. Brandmeister^talk 15:23, 13 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

@Brandmeister: I think you've misunderstood WP:NCCAPS. It means just the first letter of words that are proper names, not all the letters. Like Supermarine Spitfire is not Supermarine SPITFIRE. That means, as it's the proper name of an aeroplane model, we can call this article Boeing 737 Max (but not Boeing 737 MAX) and we don't have to follow the normal rule of no caps - as with Airbus A320 family where "family" isn't part of the proper name, for example. Please reconsider your declaration. -- DeFacto (talk). 16:30, 13 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

My bad, but as per others. Multiple official documents follow Boeing's own capitalization, like FAA's Airworthiness Notification, EASA's type-certificate data sheet, ICAO's Boeing Product Update etc. Brandmeister^talk 16:54, 13 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

• Comment, just to save repeating it several more times, for those who are opposing the move based on it being Boeing's trademark, or because it's the way Boeing write it (including, I think, GCunknown and Bohbye) that is exactly the case that the Wikipedia policy for article names containing trademarks covers and states cannot be capitalised this way. -- DeFacto (talk). 18:22, 13 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

@DeFacto: Then why don't we rename COBOL to Cobol or AstroTurf to Astro Turf or Astro turf? --rogerd (talk) 18:41, 13 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

We use the common capitalizations of those because they're the common ones. For terms that are sometimes, but not always, capitalized funny, we use standard capitalization, even if the vendor has a non-standard one. @DeFacto is pointing out (correctly) that a lot of the people who weighed in above seem to think that the rule is "spell it however the vendor does" That's not the rule. TypoBoy (talk) 19:00, 13 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

@Rogerd: COBOL is an acronym, so is correctly written in all capitals, and isn't a trademark anyway, so WP:TITLETM policy doesn't apply. AstroTurf is correct per WP:TITLETM, as neither word is written fully capitalised (AstroTURF or ASTROTurf would be wrong). -- DeFacto (talk). 20:35, 13 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

• Strong oppose Even though some writers in journalism are writing it as Max, Boeing officially writes it as MAX. --Atomicdragon136 (talk) 21:39, 13 March 2019 (UTC)Reply
• The default according to WP:TITLETM is “Max”. Boeing’s trademark is “MAX”. Unless the trademark “MAX” is the most common in sources other than Boeing, the default “Max” should be used. I reviewed recent news stories that involve this airplane, and about 2/3 of sources called it “Max”. “MAX” isn’t demonstrated to be the most common usage, so the article should be titled with “Max”. I support the move. — Pseudonymous Rex (talk) 23:28, 13 March 2019 (UTC)Reply
• Support A number of press outlets use "Max", WP:TITLETM is pretty clear on this. Boeing has said the spelling is a marketing style not an acronym. The only real reason to keep is because that's what Boeing wants it to be called and that's not a very strong one. Wugapodes [t^hɑk] [ˈkan.ˌʧɹɪbz] 23:59, 13 March 2019 (UTC)Reply
• Oppose On Boeing's actual site it says Boeing 737 MAX SchoolBusesC2 (talk) 00:56, 14 March 2019 (UTC)Reply
• Support I agree with that DeFacto. May as well Support the merger and renaming of the page. GCunknown (talk) 01:17, 14 March 2019 (UTC)Reply
• Neutral. Per WP:TITLETM: "Article titles follow standard English text formatting in the case of trademarks, unless the trademarked spelling is demonstrably the most common usage in sources independent of the owner of the trademark". This, or the lack thereof must be demonstrated by those arguing for one choice or the other. Optakeover^(U)(T)(C) 02:53, 14 March 2019 (UTC)Reply
• Oppose 737 MAX is the official name of the product, given to the product by its manufacturer. We should stick to that official name. Kestreltail (talk) 03:02, 14 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

• Support WP:OFFICIALNAME we do not use official names just because they are official. WP:MOSCAPS/WP:MOSTM uses sentence case when a word is artistically capitalized, when it is not an acronym/initialism/abbreviation. WP:AT use sentence case for naming articles, not title case. -- 70.51.201.106 (talk) 06:33, 14 March 2019 (UTC)Reply
• Oppose 737 MAX is the official name, the trademarked name, the name used by a decent number of reliable sources (no hard numbers, just an observation from a scan of the first few page of Google News on the topic), and the name used by official aviation regulation agencies (i.e. the FAA). --HunterM267 ^talk 07:23, 14 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

The article currently says "350" delivered but adding up the past several years deliveries in the chart equals 320.

MartijnWo (talk) 18:05, 12 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

That map image belongs at 2019 Boeing 737 MAX groundings instead of this general article. -Fnlayson (talk) 19:00, 12 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

I've just come to the article and read the lede expecting to learn what role the plane was designed for (short range, medium range, long range; budget airlines, full service airlines; high efficiency etc) but did not find it. Nor did I find it when I scanned the rest of the article. I'd suggest this information should figure fairly prominently in the article. Oska (talk) 01:23, 13 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

While editors are edit warring over giving Trump credit for everything we can add the FAA announcement actually grounds all the MAXs in the whole world not just US. MilborneOne (talk) 19:38, 13 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

The article now says that Trump announced the FCC ..., where my understanding (from radio news) is that Trump ordered the grounding. That may or may not be important. Gah4 (talk) 21:24, 13 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

"Following these crashes, Boeing and the FAA recommended the plane be grounded worldwide."

What kind of bootlicker thought it would be a good idea to put the FAA prominently in this sentence, the one agency who was last behind the grounding? 91.10.14.249 (talk) 21:59, 13 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

Yes we should get this right, and it sounds like it might need fixing. Though we won't know who is right, until more details come out. Gah4 (talk) 23:42, 13 March 2019 (UTC)Reply