Talk:Sonny Liston/Archive 1: Difference between revisions - Wikipedia

Article Images

Line 54:

:As currently written, this section is INCREDIBLY slanted and needs serious re-writing. See this article for a more neutral, encyclopedic take on the story. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ali_vs._Sonny_Liston [[User:DFS|DFS]] ([[User talk:DFS|talk]]) 21:57, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

::So fix it. --[[User:Yankees76|Yankees<~~font~~span ~~color~~style="color:darkblue;">76</~~font~~span>]] [[User talk:Yankees76|Talk]] 13:04, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

My uncle was at the Lewiston fight. It was AMAZING that a fight would be held in Lewiston, which my father always said was the ---hole of the universe. My uncle was taking his seat when the fight was stopped. The crowd went crazy yelling that the fight was a fix. Most people at the time considered it a fix (as well as the first fight) as Sonny Liston was so notorious (being owned by the mafia). Sonny lvied up to the predictions that he would throw fights.[[User:Shemp Howard, Jr.|Shemp Howard, Jr.]] ([[User talk:Shemp Howard, Jr.|talk]]) 02:08, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Line 76:

==Liston's D.O.B==

Liston is not on the 1930 census as his siblings are, therefore he was born sometime after late 1930 and was at most 41 when he died, he could have been younger than 38. The census data was not available until recently so it was true that uncertainy as to his age added to the enigma. Whatever the year the exact date given by the officially claimed date of birth - May 8, is almost certainly incorrect becuase Liston's mother was adamant he was born in January.[[User:Overagainst|Overagainst]] ([[User talk:Overagainst|talk]]) 16:15, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

:Please review Wikipedia's policy regarding [[WP:OR|original research]] with regards to the addition of speculated birth dates in this article. Any dates added to Wikipedia must be attributed to a [[WP:RS|reliable source]] --[[User:Yankees76|Yankees<~~font~~span ~~color~~style="color:darkblue;">76</~~font~~span>]] [[User talk:Yankees76|Talk]] 17:05, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

:::I don't follow how citing an [http://www.thesweetscience.com/boxing-article/1639/mysterious-birth-sonny-liston/ internet article] (Reference 2. in the article) as the reference for Liston's existence not being recorded at the time of the 1930 census is 'Personal research' (unless I was the author). it may be questioned how reliable the article's assertions are. AS FAR AS i CAN SEE THEY CHECK OUT [http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?cj=1&gst=35&gss=affiliate&hc=750&pcc=2&prox=1&_82004042__gpid=6,Arkansas&gsln=Liston&gsfn=Tobe%20&fh=0&o_xid=0002377301&o_lid=0002377301&gl=allgs Liston not on 1930 census] [http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse.dll?cj=1&gst=35&gss=affiliate&hc=750&pcc=2&prox=1&_82004042__gpid=6,Arkansas&gsln=Liston&gsfn=Charles&fh=0&o_xid=0002377301&o_lid=0002377301&gl=allgs Liston's father on 1930 census]. It remains uncertain when he was born but in light of the above data it should be mentioned that he probably was born aprox 1931- 32 and hence was not much older than the age he officially claimed.

::::Again, any dates added to Wikipedia must be attributed to a [[WP:RS|reliable source]] - reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. This means that we only publish the opinions of reliable authors, and not the opinions of Wikipedians who have read and interpreted primary source material for themselves. --[[User:Yankees76|Yankees<~~font~~span ~~color~~style="color:darkblue;">76</~~font~~span>]] [[User talk:Yankees76|Talk]] 15:02, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

::::::The link to the `1930 census record alleged to be Liston's father (above) is irrelevant as it is incorrect: a Charles E Liston b.1912 is given in that link, whereas Sonny's father was named Tobe and was born c.1866. Records show that Tobe Liston was 50 (and a widower father of 12) when he and 16 year old Helen Baskin moved from Mississippi to Arkansas in 1916 and they went on to have 13 children together - Sonny being penultimate. So that census link is completely wrong by the known facts. Also, Sonny's arrest record puts his birth date at closer to 1928 than 1931. Furthermore, although Sonny grew up in Sand Slough, he had no idea where he was actually born although it was certainly in that general Forrest City area. [[User:Plutonium27|Plutonium27]] ([[User talk:Plutonium27|talk]]) 08:35, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Line 94:

That's only an estimation. We have no way of knowing what date he was born on.--[[User:TheShadowCrow|TheShadowCrow]] ([[User talk:TheShadowCrow|talk]]) 22:51, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

:Text from the article ''Sonny was probably born in 1929, but no one knows for sure.'', is not very convincing if presented as evidence to change it from "unknown". Unfortunately, EastSide Boxing simply takes info from the various books on Sonny and creates and article from them - the same way a high school student would if they were doing a book report. There's no new information presented.--[[User:Yankees76|Yankees<~~font~~span ~~color~~style="color:darkblue;">76</~~font~~span>]] [[User talk:Yankees76|Talk]] 23:48, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

::Bringing this here from Bender's talk page.

::It definitely is not unknown. There are sources with birth years given. At the very least it should be c. 1930. This is the exact reason why [[circa]] and the [[template:circa]] are used for... don't know the exact year but was around this time.

Line 122:

How can this be so? It lasted over two minutes. The ref is to a dead link. [[User:Overagainst|Overagainst]] ([[User talk:Overagainst|talk]]) 13:08, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

Also "After the fight questions were raised on whether the fight was fixed to set up a more lucrative rematch.[19]" The ref makes it clear that this was one of a number of unlikely theories which presumed that patterson had taken a dive If this is included it ought to be mentioned it was a far fetched idea. [[User:Overagainst|Overagainst]] ([[User talk:Overagainst|talk]]) 13:21, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

:Okay so fix it...the subtitle of the source says the issue was raised after the fight. Because that particular writer doesn't agree that it could have been possible, does not change the fact that it was suspected that Patterson took a dive due to the beating he took. If it was such a far fetched idea, he wouldn't have bothered to write about it. And yes at the time it was the third fastest knockout, the source says it, and some quick research shows before that fight, it was Tommy Burns knocking out Bill Squires in 1:28 and Joe Louis over Max Schmeling in 2:04. Notice it says "at the time". --[[User:Yankees76|Yankees<~~font~~span ~~color~~style="color:darkblue;">76</~~font~~span>]] [[User talk:Yankees76|Talk]] 13:39, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

It ''was'' said by a sportswriter and you would think he'd know but (after checking) it is almost certainly not true [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Dempsey#Boxing_records Jack Dempsey's] record alone shows 3 KOs in the first minute, [[User:Overagainst|Overagainst]] ([[User talk:Overagainst|talk]]) 14:05, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

:None of those were title fights. Ebony magazine (November 1962) also says third fastest knockout in Heavyweight championship history. [http://books.google.ca/books?id=Mz8uGcoeLZQC&pg=PA36&lpg=PA36&dq=fastest+knockouts+in+boxing+history+liston+1962&source=bl&ots=nU4XlNVOlj&sig=WUlIQkGFb28su8mXvsXm6i8bBlk&hl=en&ei=snDeTdjVKcnb0QHxvdm9Cg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CD0Q6AEwBTgU#v=onepage&q&f=false]. --[[User:Yankees76|Yankees<~~font~~span ~~color~~style="color:darkblue;">76</~~font~~span>]] [[User talk:Yankees76|Talk]] 15:30, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

::The article originally said third fastest in boxing history which was misleading. I don't think it adds anything to say it was the 3rd fastest KO in a world heavyweight bout. Just saying that it was the first time in a world heavyweight title bout that the champion had been KOed in round one is enough in my opinion. If you insist on keeping the " 3rd fastest" bit i I propose the following text - "It was the third fastest knockout in a world heavyweight title fight and the first time the champion had been knocked out in round one" [[User:Overagainst|Overagainst]] ([[User talk:Overagainst|talk]]) 16:23, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

:::The article was originally quoting what the source said, but I do like the sound of the proposed replacement, provided it's not [[WP:OR]].--[[User:Yankees76|Yankees<~~font~~span ~~color~~style="color:darkblue;">76</~~font~~span>]] [[User talk:Yankees76|Talk]] 21:10, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

::::By the way, are are you aware of [[WP:CIT|citation templates]] and [[WP:REFNAME|ref name]] tags? The reason I'm asking is because it's going to take considerable work to properly cite the various books you're using as sources, while also fixing the duplicate cites (O Unlucky Man, Ebony etc.) you've added to this during your recent round of edits (not that article did that in the first place). I assume you're going to fix that when you're done? I think that's equally as important as digging up possibly misleading quotes from sportswriters... just a thought. --[[User:Yankees76|Yankees<~~font~~span ~~color~~style="color:darkblue;">76</~~font~~span>]] [[User talk:Yankees76|Talk]] 21:20, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

:::::Originally having the refs in that form allows them to be easily verified before being enshrined in the article. I appreciate the work done by people who put things into the correct format. Quotes which articulate a widely heard view among pundits show what people thought (rightly or wrongly) at the time, I try to use them without endosing any such view. Gilbert Rogin's article is very good. [[User:Overagainst|Overagainst]] ([[User talk:Overagainst|talk]]) 12:17, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

Line 142:

*2. Use "'''''c.'' 1932'''" which uses at least one authors style preference, and the year that Liston listed as his birthdate for official purposes. This leaves the date open for discussion and unsourced changes from future editors, and possible arguments over who's date theory is appropriate.

:Please discuss. --[[User:Yankees76|Yankees<~~font~~span ~~color~~style="color:darkblue;">76</~~font~~span>]] [[User talk:Yankees76|Talk]] 20:25, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

::It is not original research. If the sources give different years (I'm using dates here hypothetically and should not be taken as what should be used), say 1927-1933, then it is perfectly ok to say 1927-1933. This is what the sources actually say. It is original research to say the birth may not be in this range when no sources back this up. [[Jake Blackmore]] and others are a different story. There are no sources that give a birth year or how old they were when they died. If you have a death date and age at death you can narrow down the birth year to one of two years. It is a different case with Liston as sources do give births years.

::As I said above, I've always preferred using circa in these cases. This is the exact reason why [[circa]] and the [[template:circa]] were created... don't know the exact year but was around this time. I've given c. 1930 as the date because this was the middle between 1927-1933.

::The most common case where circa is used is when the death date and age at death is known. For Jake Blackmore, this is not the case as the age at death is not given. The category to use for deaths when circa is present is [[:category:1930s births]]. Examples are [[Ernie Afaganis]], [[Patricia Dineen]] and [[Fakhriya Abdel Karim]]. [[User:Bgwhite|Bgwhite]] ([[User talk:Bgwhite|talk]]) 21:14, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

:::I'd be more comfortable with ''c.'' 1930 than listing a range of years. We need to be cautious and note that this isn't a case where scholars agree on the years between when (for example) [[Jesus]] could have been born. This is an unrecorded birth for which there is only speculation on a birth year. As I mentioned, even today the range grew from 4 to 6 years, and could grow further as some newspaper sources state that Liston told police in 1955 that he was 20, and the [[Encyclopedia Britannica]] lists his date of birth as May 8, ''1917'', and had his first fight in 1934. Having "Circa 1917-1935" would be ridiculous. --[[User:Yankees76|Yankees<~~font~~span ~~color~~style="color:darkblue;">76</~~font~~span>]] [[User talk:Yankees76|Talk]] 22:29, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

::::I have no problems if a c. 1930 was used. I'm not as familiar with all the birth years given, so pick a year you feel is a good fit. I like the paragraph in the article on the conflicting birth years, sums it up nicele. [[User:Bgwhite|Bgwhite]] ([[User talk:Bgwhite|talk]]) 22:47, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

:::::To be blunt, he ''could'' have been born in 1743. It's just very unlikely. Therefore, Leaving it as "Unknown" is the best choice. --[[User:TheShadowCrow|TheShadowCrow]] ([[User talk:TheShadowCrow|talk]]) 23:32, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

Line 183:

:Except the date on his death certificate is December 30 which is why it's used the article. It's not up to us to question the coroner. See [[WP:V]]. Thanks. --[[User:Yankees76|Yankees76]] ([[User talk:Yankees76|talk]]) 13:52, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes it is given that the death date is still uncertain. This is forensics in 1970 not the modern age and it says later in the article the date of death was ESTIMATED by police and given to the coroner milk bottles and papers left at the front door, the coroner did not have any investigation into the date of death. It's fine not to question the coroner but you simply have to look at the facts instead of going by what you think which is 100 percent idiotic. —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/114.77.164.244|114.77.164.244]] ([[User talk:114.77.164.244|talk]]) 03:02, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

::Again, see [[WP:V]] - it's not Wikipedia's position to provide [[WP:OR|original research]]. Liston's date of death on this encyclopedia reflects the date of death on his death certificate. If you have an issue with that or think it's "idiotic", please take it up with the entire community who write the [[WP:PG|policies and guidelines]]. --[[User:Yankees76|Yankees<~~font~~span ~~color~~style="color:darkblue;">76</~~font~~span>]] [[User talk:Yankees76|Talk]] 22:19, 1 November 2010 (UTC)

Yankees76 you're clearly wrong. Original research would mean we're the ones going and estimating his death. The original research says the date of death is an estimate and thus should be treated as such, not fact. Don't like me to the same page again; I read it, it's irrelevant. The date of death was never established definitively and thus shouldn't bel isted as though it's definitive —Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[Special:Contributions/128.42.221.5|128.42.221.5]] ([[User talk:128.42.221.5|talk]]) 09:05, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

:You can debate your own interpretation of what [[WP:OR]] is or isn't all you want. The fact remains that it's merely your own personal position that forensics in 1970 was not reliable, and merely your own position that because the date of death on his death certificate is, to your best knowledge, an inaccurate estimate and we shouldn't use it. However because there ''is'' a permanent legal record of the fact of death of Sonny Liston which includes a legal date of death - as an encyclopedia, that's what we list as his date of death. Not someones assumption. Not a single use account anonymous Wikipedia editors interpretation of the "facts" as they perceive them. But the actual officially recorded date of death. This isn't a forum to advance conspiracy theories, or to challenge the work of professionals from 40 years ago. And if you read the article, the wording ''"The day of his death on his death certificate is December 30, 1970. Police estimated it by judging the number of milk bottles and newspapers at the front door.[18]"'' makes it pretty clear where the date is derived from and therefore why it's used in this an numerous other pieces of literature about Sonny. As a side point are you challenging the date of deaths of [[Layne Staley]], [[Guy Leveque]], and [[Kurt Cobain]] too? After all their dates of death are only a "coroners estimate" as well.

:I'm also not entirely clear what you're hoping to accomplish here. Are you asking Wikipedia to put "on or about" in front of this date of death or that we put "Unknown" in it's place? If so, see my note above - please take it up with entire community who write the [[WP:PG|policies and guidelines]], as more articles than just Sonny Liston's would be affected by such a change.--[[User:Yankees76|Yankees<~~font~~span ~~color~~style="color:darkblue;">76</~~font~~span>]] [[User talk:Yankees76|Talk]] 14:47, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Hey Yankees76, I just noticed the undo. I agree with you that the coroner's 12-30-70 date should be up top like it is. It is an official date, and the best estimate we seem to have. However, the coroner admitted it was ''estimated''. It seems to follow reason that either circa or est. should be added before the date, correct? [[User:Tidewater 2014|Tidewater 2014]] ([[User talk:Tidewater 2014|talk]]) 14:42, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Can someone add "est." before the death date for the infobox? Every change I make doesn't make it look right. Thanks. [[User:Tidewater 2014|Tidewater 2014]] ([[User talk:Tidewater 2014|talk]]) 14:45, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

::Unless you can provide evidence that "est" is printed on his death certificate, adding it to Wikipedia is [[WP:OR|orginal research]]. The details of his death in the article explain the circumstances of his death, and his official date of death. Since it's an official date of death (and is also marked on his gravestone), Wikipedia should not be adding "estimated" or "assumed" or any other superfluous abbreviations in front of it. My post above from over 4 years ago does a good job of explaining why if you really need more detail. Also see the Wikipedia pages of [[Layne Staley]], [[Guy Leveque]], and [[Kurt Cobain]] for other examples of how it's properly done. Please don't insert this again. [[User:Yankees76|Yankees<~~font~~span ~~color~~style="color:darkblue;">76</~~font~~span>]] [[User talk:Yankees76|Talk]] 14:10, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Fair enough Yankees76, thank you. I asked the question back on 7-31 and waited over two weeks before making that change. Had you responded to my initial message, I wouldn't have done it. Note that this precise detail was not explained above, as the other person was trying to make it "unknown" and remove the date altogether. [[User:Tidewater 2014|Tidewater 2014]] ([[User talk:Tidewater 2014|talk]]) 18:17, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

:Yeah sorry, this page is only one of many many that show up on my feed - so I didn't see it right away and I thought there was a consensus on the issue. Either way a quick brush up on [[WP:OR]] on your part should help avoid anything like this in the future. Cheers.[[User:Yankees76|Yankees<~~font~~span ~~color~~style="color:darkblue;">76</~~font~~span>]] [[User talk:Yankees76|Talk]] 21:26, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

Line 214:

== Date of birth, again ==

Today we are seeing "c. 1930" being used as the birthdate with a source (based on its own sources) where they make a rational determination. I'm starting this discussion so we can decide if the source is strong enough, and whether "c. 1930" or "Unknown" should be what we go with. Pinging {{ping|Brandmeister}} to join in. [[User:Stevietheman|<~~font~~span ~~color~~style="color:green;">'''Stevie is the man!'''</~~font~~span>]] [[User talk:Stevietheman|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Stevietheman|Work]] 14:38, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

:Although per that source his mother reportedly said "I know he was born in January, in 1932. It was cold in January", the source goes on to say that "it is almost certain that he was born no earlier than July 1930". I checked whether other sources say the same. [https://books.google.pl/books?id=aYKsBwAAQBAJ&pg=PA213&dq=sonny+liston+born&hl=ru&sa=X&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=sonny%20liston%20born&f=false African Americans in Sports], for example, seemingly relies on his later birth certificate saying it's May 8, 1932. Perhaps "early 1930s" is safe enough to state in the lead, so "c. 1930" can be swapped. [[User:Brandmeister|Brandmeister]][[User talk:Brandmeister|talk]] 14:53, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

::That sounds perfectly reasonable, and I'm comfortable with that, but I'm concerned by all the back-and-forth editing on this point. It would be nice to have a community decision that sticks. I don't mind you making the change you just outlined, but hopefully others will join in this discussion so we can have a long-lasting decision -- perhaps we should do an RfC? [[User:Stevietheman|<~~font~~span ~~color~~style="color:green;">'''Stevie is the man!'''</~~font~~span>]] [[User talk:Stevietheman|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Stevietheman|Work]] 15:16, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

I suggest bringing it back to "Unknown" because the census and his "official" DOB aren't the only dates which have been put forth. Paul Gallendar, who is quoted a few times in this article, claims that Liston was born in 1919! Also, it says right in the article that his age was reported in the newspaper as 22 when he was arrested in 1950, which would have made his birth year 1927 or 1928. I don't think there's enough evidence to put "early 30's" or "c. 1930" in the article. Was it most likely he was born around 1930? Probably. But it's not our responsibility as editors to interpret the information in that manner. Care to discuss? [[User:Tidewater 2014|Tidewater 2014]] ([[User talk:Tidewater 2014|talk]]) 19:06, 11 August 2016 (UTC)

Line 222:

No response for a while. I'll put it back to unknown if no one objects. I think that is the safest thing to do, but I'm also concerned about all the back-and-forth. Could we have a vote on this? [[User:Tidewater 2014|Tidewater 2014]] ([[User talk:Tidewater 2014|talk]]) 19:31, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

A [[WP:RFC|Request for Comment]] might be useful to not only get a consensus decision, but a more enforceable one. [[User:Stevietheman|<~~font~~span ~~color~~style="color:green;">'''Stevie is the man!'''</~~font~~span>]] [[User talk:Stevietheman|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Stevietheman|Work]] 19:59, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

Line 237:

Cheers.—[[User:Cyberbot II|cyberbot II]][[User talk:Cyberbot II|Talk to my owner]]:Online 04:44, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

== BBC article, July 2019 ==

Just so that it isn’t lost, a link to the BBC article [https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/boxing/48974341 Sonny Liston: The mysterious death that haunts boxing], 16 July 2019. [[User:JDAWiseman|JDAWiseman]] ([[User talk:JDAWiseman|talk]]) 13:20, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

== RfC: What should we list Liston's DOB as? ==

Thanks Stevie. All, please see my earlier comment so we could resolve this. I think Unknown is the best option due to the variety of dates that have been put forth. The census implies 1930, the "official" date was 1932, and the newspaper reporting his arrest places the DOB in 1927 or 1928. Additionally, biographer Paul Gallendar, already quoted a few times in this article, puts forth other possible dates, including 1917 and 1919. Gallendar's book came out in August 1st 2012, a few months after the 1940 census release. If we consider his book a reliable source, it seems that Unknown is the best option. That's what it should be IMO. What are your thoughts? Are some sources more reliable than others in this case, and, is it our business to distinguish them? [[User:Tidewater 2014|Tidewater 2014]] ([[User talk:Tidewater 2014|talk]]) 17:42, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

:This isn't quite in the regular RfC format per [[WP:RFC]]. Please read that page for instructions. [[User:Stevietheman|'''Stevie is the man!''']] [[User talk:Stevietheman|Talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/Stevietheman|Work]] 18:16, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

I think this may be a case where "circa" is the most appropriate. The most reliable information we have, the Census, points to a 1930 birth with no date other than it being after the 1930 Census was taken. So long as we have a reliable approximation, it should be used—so long as we make it clear that it is an approximation and that no reliable firsthand proof is available. [[User:JMyrleFuller|J. Myrle Fuller]] ([[User talk:JMyrleFuller|talk]]) 15:38, 6 April 2019 (UTC)

:Unknown seems justified in the absence of contemporaneous record of his birth or other reliable source. A section could explore the possibilities. With much earlier dates than around 1930 seriously suggested, and bearing in mind Foreman won at 45 there is no reliable reason to rule out the idea he was born ''well'' before 1930 by definatively setting it down as circa 1930. His family were illiterate (did not give him the name Charles, it was a nurse) and they didn't know what the initial L stood for. The age they gave him in the census is dubious, especially as it was such a big family and the father seems to have wanted to keep him home to work. In the absence of reliable sources the most honest thing for the infobox and lede would be unknown because it seems Liston's mother simply did not know what year Sonny was born. In sources I looked at years ago when I did a lot of editing, it said she was definite only about him being born in winter. In ''The Mad and the Bad: Boxing Tales of Murder, Madness and Mayhem'' (2018) By Thomas Myler it says she gave winter 1932 and summer 1927. We cannot simply split the difference. According to the book ''Night Train'', Liston could pass for fifty in his last years, but he had a long standing very serious drink problem, which maybe aged him. People like Norman Mailer said at the time Liston friends were pretty sure he was ''quite a bit'' older than he claimed, and that suggests years well before the thirties. At the end of the day there is no verifiable source, and reporters could hardly know what his mother didn't. Unknown for infobox and lede but explain in the main body of the article that circa 1930 is a timeframe favoured by the balance of opinion. [[User:Overagainst|Overagainst]] ([[User talk:Overagainst|talk]]) 13:19, 6 March 2020 (UTC)

== Nickname ==

In several places the article says Liston was known as "the big bear." Was this an actual nickname or just a taunt by Ali? [[User:HeraclitusEphesus|HeraclitusEphesus]] ([[User talk:HeraclitusEphesus|talk]]) 19:34, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

:It might have been a taunt, but I'm finding many references to him as the Big Bear in Google News. [[User:CheeseStakeholder|CheeseStakeholder]] ([[User talk:CheeseStakeholder|talk]]) 19:40, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

::To the contrary, a search of Google News for "Sonny Liston bear" (without quotes or with quotes around "Sonny Liston") produces only one such reference, a 2012 CNN article entitled "Muhammad Ali returns to the Olympic stage, once again, in London," which contains the sentence: "Despite 7 to 1 odds, the young Clay began a relentless assault of verbal attacks calling Liston 'the big ugly bear.' " Obviously this was an epithet and not a nickname. I am inclined to remove the statements in the article alleging that "the big bear" was an actual nickname of Liston (akin to "the Brown Bomber" for Joe Louis or "the Easton Assassin" for Larry Holmes) unless someone can produce a legitimate source for the alleged Liston nickname. [[User:HeraclitusEphesus|HeraclitusEphesus]] ([[User talk:HeraclitusEphesus|talk]]) 00:33, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

:::Check out [https://www.google.com/search?q=Sonny+Liston+bear&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&channel=rcs#q=Sonny+Liston+bear&hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=bYf&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&channel=rcs&tbm=nws&prmd=imvnso&source=lnt&tbs=ar:1&sa=X&ei=JWgkUIOAMcWi6gG86oAY&ved=0CDgQpwUoBQ&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&fp=86fd5e3e2608a5db&biw=800&bih=424], and be sure to go past the front page. You have to go into the archives. [[User:CheeseStakeholder|CheeseStakeholder]] ([[User talk:CheeseStakeholder|talk]]) 01:49, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

:::If you go to the second listing, which is the article on his Patterson match in July 1963, an AP story calls him "the Big Bear." [http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=JKFIAAAAIBAJ&sjid=EQENAAAAIBAJ&pg=3171,1442910&dq=sonny+liston+bear&hl=en]. The Ali fight, when Ali tagged him with that label, wasn't until the following year. So it seems pretty clear that Ali just picked up on Liston's preexisting nickname. [[User:CheeseStakeholder|CheeseStakeholder]] ([[User talk:CheeseStakeholder|talk]]) 12:53, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

:::Hmmmm. I'm finding references to Clay calling him "the Big Bear" early in 1963, before the Patterson fight, and nothing before that. So I think you're right that he was given that nickname by Ali. But the way the media used it, it looks like it stuck. I think we still have to use it, based on the information we have at this time. [[User:CheeseStakeholder|CheeseStakeholder]] ([[User talk:CheeseStakeholder|talk]]) 13:02, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

== Rubber Match? ==

''They had a rubber match on March 6, 1956, which Liston won by a ten-round unanimous decision...''

Pretty sure a "rubber match" means "re-match". Not sure if there is any added or more-specific meaning. Are the words fully-interchangeable? I don't think the word is encyclopedic without additional definition in the Article. If it means the same thing as "rematch", I think that's the word that should be used instead. I doubt anyone that is not well-versed in the American idiom would understand the connection between "rubber" and a 2nd match. Tbh, I don't think I do. Something to do with "bouncing"? Either way, it's going to create confusion and not provide information.[[Special:Contributions/68.206.249.124|68.206.249.124]] ([[User talk:68.206.249.124|talk]]) 13:49, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

:I agree, it's not very encyclopaedic so I've changed it to "fought for a third time". Just to note, "rubber match" is a specific type of rematch; one to settle a tie from previous matches. In this case, Liston and Marshall were 1–1 in their previous fights, the "rubber match" settles the score once and for all. – [[User:Squared.Circle.Boxing|''2'']].[[User:Squared.Circle.Boxing|'''''O''''']].[[User talk:Squared.Circle.Boxing|''Boxing'']] 14:40, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

::Thanks. See, I didn't know that. I thought it was just a basic rematch, not (I'm gathering) the best "two out of three". I've heard the phrase my whole life and never really knew what it meant.[[Special:Contributions/68.206.249.124|68.206.249.124]] ([[User talk:68.206.249.124|talk]]) 17:30, 7 October 2020 (UTC)