Talk:Sonny Liston/Archive 1: Difference between revisions - Wikipedia

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::::By the way, are are you aware of [[WP:CIT|citation templates]] and [[WP:REFNAME|ref name]] tags? The reason I'm asking is because it's going to take considerable work to properly cite the various books you're using as sources, while also fixing the duplicate cites (O Unlucky Man, Ebony etc.) you've added to this during your recent round of edits (not that article did that in the first place). I assume you're going to fix that when you're done? I think that's equally as important as digging up possibly misleading quotes from sportswriters... just a thought. --<b>[[User:Yankees76|Yankees<font color="darkblue">76</font>]] [[User talk:Yankees76|^Talk]]</b> 21:20, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

:::::Originally having the refs in that form allows them to be easily verified before being enshrined in the article. I appreciate the work done by people who put things into the correct format. Quotes which articulate a widely heard view among pundits show what people thought (rightly or wrongly) at the time, I try to use them without endosing any such view. Gilbert Rogin's article is very good. [[User:Overagainst|Overagainst]] ([[User talk:Overagainst|talk]]) 12:17, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

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== Date of Birth Revisted ==

:There have been edits recently advocating using a range of years to represent Liston's date of birth[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sonny_Liston&diff=486470201&oldid=486466803]. My position on this is that "Circa 1927-1933" is not correct here because it's [[WP:OR|original research]]. The policy for which states ''"Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources."'' Because one source says it could be 1928 or 1932 and another says 1927, and a third says it might be 1933 does not make Liston's date of of birth between 1927 and 1933. It's original research to list his birth date in an encyclopedia in this manner. There are no degrees of unknown, we either know his birth date or we don't. It's not our job to "narrow down" the years through detective work by using theories postulated by various authors ranging from published Liston experts to freelance boxing writers with access to Google.

:You'll notice that this detective work is not present in articles for [[Jake Blackmore]] and others in the ''Category:Year of birth unknown'' on Wikipedia, and none of them list a range of possible birth years. Their date of birth either listed as unknown, or only their place of birth and their date of death (if known and sourced) is listed. Using the argument that ''it is not totally unknown, like he could've been born in 1743. The range is known, only the exact date is not'' is flawed because the range is actually only known with a probable degree of certainty, and having a 6 year range of possible years that Liston could have been born is certainly not encyclopedic. It also leaves the article open for further edit wars based on what sources are used for the two dates. Already today, one editor has changed the date range from 1928-1932 to 1927-1933 even though no new sources were added.

:In my opinion there are two options.

*1. Leave Liston's birthdate as "'''Unknown'''", which could also be argued as unencyclopedic but will not violate any Wikipedia policies.

*2. Use "'''''c.'' 1932'''" which uses at least one authors style preference, and the year that Liston listed as his birthdate for official purposes. This leaves the date open for discussion and unsourced changes from future editors, and possible arguments over who's date theory is appropriate.

:Please discuss. --<b>[[User:Yankees76|Yankees<font color="darkblue">76</font>]] [[User talk:Yankees76|^Talk]]</b> 20:25, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

::It is not original research. If the sources give different years (I'm using dates here hypothetically and should not be taken as what should be used), say 1927-1933, then it is perfectly ok to say 1927-1933. This is what the sources actually say. It is original research to say the birth may not be in this range when no sources back this up. [[Jake Blackmore]] and others are a different story. There are no sources that give a birth year or how old they were when they died. If you have a death date and age at death you can narrow down the birth year to one of two years. It is a different case with Liston as sources do give births years.

::As I said above, I've always preferred using circa in these cases. This is the exact reason why [[circa]] and the [[template:circa]] were created... don't know the exact year but was around this time. I've given c. 1930 as the date because this was the middle between 1927-1933.

::The most common case where circa is used is when the death date and age at death is known. For Jake Blackmore, this is not the case as the age at death is not given. The category to use for deaths when circa is present is [[:category:1930s births]]. Examples are [[Ernie Afaganis]], [[Patricia Dineen]] and [[Fakhriya Abdel Karim]]. [[User:Bgwhite|Bgwhite]] ([[User talk:Bgwhite|talk]]) 21:14, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

:::I'd be more comfortable with ''c.'' 1930 than listing a range of years. We need to be cautious and note that this isn't a case where scholars agree on the years between when (for example) [[Jesus]] could have been born. This is an unrecorded birth for which there is only speculation on a birth year. As I mentioned, even today the range grew from 4 to 6 years, and could grow further as some newspaper sources state that Liston told police in 1955 that he was 20, and the [[Encyclopedia Britannica]] lists his date of birth as May 8, ''1917'', and had his first fight in 1934. Having "Circa 1917-1935" would be ridiculous. --<b>[[User:Yankees76|Yankees<font color="darkblue">76</font>]] [[User talk:Yankees76|^Talk]]</b> 22:29, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

::::I have no problems if a c. 1930 was used. I'm not as familiar with all the birth years given, so pick a year you feel is a good fit. I like the paragraph in the article on the conflicting birth years, sums it up nicele. [[User:Bgwhite|Bgwhite]] ([[User talk:Bgwhite|talk]]) 22:47, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

:::::To be blunt, he ''could'' have been born in 1743. It's just very unlikely. Therefore, Leaving it as "Unknown" is the best choice. --[[User:TheShadowCrow|TheShadowCrow]] ([[User talk:TheShadowCrow|talk]]) 23:32, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

::::::Everybody ''could'' have been born other than their given birth date. Actresses are a good example of fudging dates. However, sources are given for Liston's birth year. You go with the sources and not do original research in thinking he could have been a 225 year old boxer. Sources say he was born around 1930. [[User:Bgwhite|Bgwhite]] ([[User talk:Bgwhite|talk]]) 00:56, 10 April 2012 (UTC)

:::::::The 1940 Census indicates a birth year of 1929 or 1930. See following section. Using it may be Original Research, so I've raised the issue on a noticeboard. [[User:CheeseStakeholder|CheeseStakeholder]] ([[User talk:CheeseStakeholder|talk]]) 18:57, 10 August 2012 (UTC)

::::::::I changed the ref to point to Familysearch. Familysearch gives the information in printed form, so it is easier for the normal reader to understand. It also contains a better image. Census is not original research as the information comes directly from the person, if the census form contains the right family. The census form has a an X inside a circle next to Tobbie's name, the father. This means the information on the census form comes from Tobbie. I do genealogy and have seen quite a few census forms in my day. Don't trust the spelling of the name as the census taker usually does the spelling. Other information can be wrong, depending if the census taker heard accurately, person giving the information gives it accurately, etc. Great find CheeseStakeholder. [[User:Bgwhite|Bgwhite]] ([[User talk:Bgwhite|talk]]) 20:43, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

:::::::::Looks good. Thanks for your help. [[User:CheeseStakeholder|CheeseStakeholder]] ([[User talk:CheeseStakeholder|talk]]) 21:30, 13 August 2012 (UTC)