Talk:Sonny Liston/Archive 1 - Wikipedia

I removed the material which said:

"If you search you may find that Moe Dalitz of the Cleveland Mob, the real godfather of Las Vegas, had an argument with Liston, when Liston called Mr Dalitz dirty names. Moe Dalitz suposedly said "One phone call and you are dead in 24 hours". After all, the death is still unsolved."

If someone wants to put something in about the Cleveland Mob and Moe Dalitz, I think it should be a little less awkwardly worded. What I mean to say is that this sounds a bit loony and less neutral than it should be.

69.92.82.104 23:38, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

There is a difference between a fight being fixed and a fighter taking a dive. A fix implies participation by both camps. However, Ali was as surprised as everyone else when Liston went down and would not have been a party to such a charade.

While I personally believe that Liston took a dive (for whatever reason), the article needs to remain neutral. While it is fair to say that the bout ended in controversy, which can be backed up, we need to be careful about calling it a fiasco, a fix, an affair, or anything else along those lines. It was a controversial ending to a title fight.

We can quote the opinions of experts in the fight game, but need to be careful about making declarations one way or the other -- or injecting our own opinions. --NameThatWorks 20:00, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

My uncle was at the Lewiston fight. It was AMAZING that a fight would be held in Lewiston, which my father always said was the ---hole of the universe. My uncle was taking his seat when the fight was stopped. The crowd went crazy yelling that the fight was a fix. Most people at the time considered it a fix (as well as the first fight) as Sonny Liston was so notorious (being owned by the mafia). Sonny apparently lived up to the predictions that he would throw fights. --Shemp Howard, Jr. (talk) 02:08, 17 September 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shemp Howard, Jr. (talk • contribs)

And you wonder why this article has a grade of C? Sonny Liston's contract was owned by the two most notorious gangsters (who controlled pro boxing and went to jail for it). This was documented by the FBI and the press. Sonny Liston TESTIFIED BEFORE THE U.S. SENATE in the Kefauver Committee's investigation into Mafia control of boxing, and offhandedly dismissed criticims of Blinky Palermo and Frank Carbo. Anyone with any knowledge of Liston and the fight game in the early 1960s knows what a major thing this was -- an unapologetic Mafia-connected boxer becoming heavyweight champ, the speculation that he would throw the fight, and then the two dubious losses to Clay/Ali. DOES ANYONE BOTHER TO READ, since you have no memories of the period? It's Liston's Mafia connections and the two dubious fights (Sports Illustrated ran an article after the fight in '64 answering the question was the first fight fixed, and everyone but the deaf, dumb and blind knows the second one was) that defined him, and it is left out. This article is a blot on Wikipedia.Shemp Howard, Jr. (talk) 01:44, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

(Angelo== Ali vs. Liston == Liston never had a proper fight with Ali he was always running away if you ask he was afraid he was tring not to serve himself embarrasment. Liston stayed on the ground for around 20 seconds How? Why? Rumors say he bet against himself because he had to give money to the Mafia He knew he couldn't beat ALi. Ali was THE Greatest. (Shabbir Bokhari)

In 'The Phantom Punch', I replaced 'toss himself off' with 'take a dive'. 'Toss himself off' is an English euphimism for 'masturbate'. Ketlan

I just watched the Liston-Ali fight and here's what happened: Sonny gets hit quite hard on the head. He stumbles around and keels over on his back. He tries getting up on one knee and almost tips over again. He finally gets up before the 10 count and the fight continues. Ali attacks aggressively and Liston is still too dazed to fight back, so the ref calls the fight. It didn't look like there was anything amiss at all. I think Sonny Liston later said he threw the fight because he was too embarassed to admit he went down in the first round like that. Anyway, I think the description should be changed to more accurately describe the knockout. As it is it minimalizes the hit by Ali, when in fact it looked like a devastating blow to the head. JettaMan April 24, 2006

He didn't get hit quite hard on the head. Ali didn't even know he hit Liston as you can see him mouthing the words later "did I hit him". Why do you think he's telling Liston to get up? It's because he knew it wasn't a loaded punch. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.77.164.244 (talk) 02:37, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

"The photograph of the conclusion of this fight is one of the most famous pictures in boxing history": So the article appears to be grossly misleading: it suggests a stoppage by KO, while the special article dealing with these two fights (as well as the posting above) say there was further fighting action until the referee stopped the fight!

The sentence "It is documented that muslims from the Nation of Islam, which controlled Ali, had threatened Liston before the fight" sounds a little loony and almost certainly wrong. I removed it.

I changed "the conclusion of this obviously fixed fight" to "the conclusion of this fight" in the 'Subsequent fights' section. The possibility of a fix is discussed later in the section, and it is of course not known whether the fight was fixed or not.

I'm fairly sure that the black and white photo of Ali standing over Liston, with his arms by his sides is more famous than the one shown (although both are famous), so I think it should be the one mentioned. 211.28.185.39 (talk) 20:11, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

As currently written, this section is INCREDIBLY slanted and needs serious re-writing. See this article for a more neutral, encyclopedic take on the story. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ali_vs._Sonny_Liston DFS (talk) 21:57, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

So fix it. --Yankees76 ^Talk 13:04, 21 April 2011 (UTC)

My uncle was at the Lewiston fight. It was AMAZING that a fight would be held in Lewiston, which my father always said was the ---hole of the universe. My uncle was taking his seat when the fight was stopped. The crowd went crazy yelling that the fight was a fix. Most people at the time considered it a fix (as well as the first fight) as Sonny Liston was so notorious (being owned by the mafia). Sonny lvied up to the predictions that he would throw fights.Shemp Howard, Jr. (talk) 02:08, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

First of all, I'm not going to say much but I'm from South Philly and my father knew Angelo Dundee, Frankie Dundee, and Chris Dundee as well as being very good friends with Joe Pollino, who stood for my father during confirmation. My father also knew Blinky Palermo very well and Frankie Carbo actually had a house in Philadelphia. Joe Pollino lived and died on the 900 block of McClellan street in South Philadelphia. Our family is from the 900 block of Morris Street and the Dundees were from the 700 block of Morris Street. My grandfather trained fighters on the 700 block of Morris Street. If I remember correctly, Joe Pollino was Sonny Liston's trainer until the last few fights before the Ali fight where he was assistant trainer. Joe Pollino was in a wheel chair and could hardly speak in the last days of his life. When I was young and we went to visit him and we talked about Sonny Liston, he said, "tank, both fights, tank." He's dead so I can say it. I met Frankie Dundee (Angelo Dundee's brother) in 1983 or 1984 up Passyunk gym on Passyunk and Moore in South Philly. He was with ex fighter Tommy Forte who passed away in 2001. Tommy Forte and my father boxed together in the 30's. I don't know if Frankie is still living, but Angelo is. All I can say is that Frankie never said that the fight was a tank nor did he infer it. But I can say that he told me and Tommy Forte what his brother Angelo told Ali in between rounds to get Ali to go out and fight because Ali wanted to quit and what Frankie told us was very different than the mild version that Angelo talks about on TV. After Ali finally went out, Liston quit the next round. According to old time Philadelphia mobsters years ago in the 70's, and this is hearsay from my father, is that the first fight was supposed to go the distance and that Liston was supposed to take it easy on Ali. However, since Ali was going to quit the plan changed and they made Liston quit in the next round. Because of the problem with the first fight, they didn't want to take any chances in the second fight so they told Liston to lay down in the first round. As for the second fight, they even had Jersey Joe Walcott as the referee who was Felix Bocchicchio's fighter. Felix was Blinky's partner.

The word phantom is used incorrectly. A phantom is something that is seen but has no existence or effect. Ali's punch was the opposite. It supposedly had existence and effect, but it was not seen.Lestrade 17:29, 9 April 2007 (UTC)Lestrade

Most people look at Ali's left punch, which missed Liston as he was falling from Ali preceding right punch. Ali right punch, got Liston on the left temple. It was the ankor punch (this should be added). GoodDay 20:20, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

It *is* THE Phantom Punch. That is what it was called then, and that is what it is known by. People who have no knowledge of Sonny Liston and the two Clay fights should withhold their comments.Shemp Howard, Jr. (talk) 01:38, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Sonny Liston/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Using a self-serving, non-scientific television show like "Unsolved Mysteries," especially when quoting a biased friend, to establish the so-called fact that Liston was in car accident preceding his death, when the program could easily document the fact by searching hospital and police records, is very suspect and should be viewed very skeptically.

Last edited at 12:29, 9 May 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 06:31, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Liston is not on the 1930 census as his siblings are, therefore he was born sometime after late 1930 and was at most 41 when he died, he could have been younger than 38. The census data was not available until recently so it was true that uncertainy as to his age added to the enigma. Whatever the year the exact date given by the officially claimed date of birth - May 8, is almost certainly incorrect becuase Liston's mother was adamant he was born in January.Overagainst (talk) 16:15, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Please review Wikipedia's policy regarding original research with regards to the addition of speculated birth dates in this article. Any dates added to Wikipedia must be attributed to a reliable source --Yankees76 ^Talk 17:05, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't follow how citing an internet article (Reference 2. in the article) as the reference for Liston's existence not being recorded at the time of the 1930 census is 'Personal research' (unless I was the author). it may be questioned how reliable the article's assertions are. AS FAR AS i CAN SEE THEY CHECK OUT Liston not on 1930 census Liston's father on 1930 census. It remains uncertain when he was born but in light of the above data it should be mentioned that he probably was born aprox 1931- 32 and hence was not much older than the age he officially claimed.

Again, any dates added to Wikipedia must be attributed to a reliable source - reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. This means that we only publish the opinions of reliable authors, and not the opinions of Wikipedians who have read and interpreted primary source material for themselves. --Yankees76 ^Talk 15:02, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

The link to the `1930 census record alleged to be Liston's father (above) is irrelevant as it is incorrect: a Charles E Liston b.1912 is given in that link, whereas Sonny's father was named Tobe and was born c.1866. Records show that Tobe Liston was 50 (and a widower father of 12) when he and 16 year old Helen Baskin moved from Mississippi to Arkansas in 1916 and they went on to have 13 children together - Sonny being penultimate. So that census link is completely wrong by the known facts. Also, Sonny's arrest record puts his birth date at closer to 1928 than 1931. Furthermore, although Sonny grew up in Sand Slough, he had no idea where he was actually born although it was certainly in that general Forrest City area. Plutonium27 (talk) 08:35, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

His arrest record date of 1928 is pure fiction. They had no way of knowing if that was his birth date if they cared to investigate staunchly. Even his mother can't remember the specific month he was born. (seeing as she had 25 children to take care of) I think the 1930 Census is the most objective piece of evidence we have. (Dcfb111, 23: 24GMT, 24 February 2011) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dcfb111 (talk • contribs) 23:25, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Dcfb111 - if you were replying to my comment, you clearly didn't read it. All the birth dates have to be "pure fiction" - as you put it - because none can be established as true. Meanwhile, the 1930 census info quoted above (para 3, unsigned but by Overagainst) which you continue to believe is the most objective piece of evidence we have does not link to Liston's father and so as evidence is useless. (It purports to identify Liston's father on 1930 census as "Charles Liston". This is not, and cannot be, Sonny's father - Tobe Liston). Of course, anyone who has access to the records can check for his father (and/or mother Helen Baskin) but there is no guarantee that all information would be present and correct regarding the family (especially juveniles), given the realities of the time and place.

Your comment about Sonny's mother isn't correct either: she repeated to contemporary writers she was sure he was born in January. They were a farming family, I am inclined to believe that even if they did not have a calendar or other marker, she would know the month by seasonal observation (and maybe because of a memorable Xmas/New year etc). (BTW I doubt she would have 25 - or anywhere near that number - of kids to look after all at the same time.!

Anyway, all we can go on is circumstantial evidence and educated guesses. Just like St Louis PD and the judiciary back in 1940s when faced with sentencing and incarcerating a young offender. Estimating age in such circumstances is not something to be taken lightly and there is no reason to suspect they did anything other than make as reliable a guess as they could based upon what they knew and were told. As for "if they cared to investigate staunchly" - what more could they do? Plutonium27 (talk) 17:58, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Regarding the Liston's birthday (currently said "unknown"), an article from eastsideboxing.com highlights January 1929 as possible date : The Troubled Life And Sad Legacy Of Sonny Liston
What do you think about that ? -- Mats01 (talk) 19:27, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

That's only an estimation. We have no way of knowing what date he was born on.--TheShadowCrow (talk) 22:51, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Text from the article Sonny was probably born in 1929, but no one knows for sure., is not very convincing if presented as evidence to change it from "unknown". Unfortunately, EastSide Boxing simply takes info from the various books on Sonny and creates and article from them - the same way a high school student would if they were doing a book report. There's no new information presented.--Yankees76 ^Talk 23:48, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Bringing this here from Bender's talk page.

It definitely is not unknown. There are sources with birth years given. At the very least it should be c. 1930. This is the exact reason why circa and the template:circa are used for... don't know the exact year but was around this time.

It is not original research IF sources say various years between 1927-1933. There is no original research done here as it is the sources that give a range. Saying born between 1927-1933 is perfectly fine. However, I've always preferred just using circa. Bgwhite (talk) 20:21, 9 April 2012 (UTC)

A brief search on Google Images, brings up several images (some of which are in the public domain), that could be used instead of the current unflattering, harrowing image used for this article.

This man encountered things most of us cannot even contemplate, during his lifetime. Wikipedia, being a venerable online information resource, can help introduce this man to a new audience. The least that can be done would be to use a photograph that would treat him with some respect and dignity, instead of making him a figure of derision and contempt - even after death.

I tried to use an alternative photograph, but could not edit the picture. Please kindly advise me on how to do this. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.68.84.187 (talk • contribs) 09:13, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

We need to have an image which is free to use and compatible with our license and we only have one at the moment. The image must be uploaded before it can be used in an article, you cannot link to an image on an external website. Keith D (talk) 13:21, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

Keith D, where did you discover the present one? (from Dcfb111, 23:13 GMT, 24 February 2011)

I did not, it originated from the Finnish Wikipedia by a user there. Keith D (talk) 23:55, 24 February 2011 (UTC)