Talk:Sri Lankan Civil War: Difference between revisions - Wikipedia
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:{{ping|Jayingeneva}} Thank you for your interest in this difficult subject, we usually put a range in these circumstances, because no one really knows. if you think the lower estimate is wrong, lets discuss [[User:Kanatonian|Kanatonian]] ([[User talk:Kanatonian|talk]]) 03:29, 9 February 2021 (UTC)
::{{ping|Kanatonian}} Thank you for welcoming me and taking the time to write on the Talk page. The sections referring to the death toll lack citations. A bit more due diligence appears to be required in this area. Do you have any recommendations on how to proceed efficiently? Is [[WP:SLR]] the recommended way to approach this topic? Are these guidelines followed by most Editors on this page? I created this section on the Talk page first to avoid edit warring. However, I note that three edits were swiftly reverted without any explanation on the Talk page. One of which added additional citations. I am aware, "[https://www.nature.com/articles/srep36333 that users who revert frequently tend to revert users who revert rarely.]". In such situations, is it better to take the dispute to the [[WP:DRN]] sooner rather than later? [[User:Jayingeneva|Jayingeneva]] ([[User talk:Jayingeneva|talk]]) 23:28, 18 February 2021 (UTC)
:::{{ping|Obi2canibe}} Please note the following errors in your edit [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sri_Lankan_Civil_War&diff=prev&oldid=1005436202 1005436202]
:::# The UN Panel report was published in 2011, not 2013.
:::# The UN Panel report does not refer to civilian deaths exceeding 100,000.
:::# The quote, from the Time article you cite, is from the Policy Research and Information Unit of the Presidential Secretariat of Sri Lanka, not the UN Panel.
:::# Your edit removed the citation and the hyperlink to the UN Panel report. Have you read it?
:::# For no reason, your edit removed 2 citations to articles by the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation (2011) and the British Broadcasting Corporation (2014).
:::# Your edit included death toll figures with no citations that are 50% more than the official UN range.
:::Please take some time to do some due diligence, and then do a self-reversion. Next time, please look at the Talk page first. Thank you. :::[[User:Jayingeneva|Jayingeneva]] ([[User talk:Jayingeneva|talk]]) 00:22, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
:::{{ping|El_C}} What would your advice be? Do I revert {{u|Obi2canibe}}'s edit? There has been no response to the list of errors I documented above.
::::The civilian death is likely much higher than 40,000 in the final stages of the war. Over 140,000 civilians from the Vanni region were unaccounted for following the final phase of the war in 2009.
::::Quoting estimates from outdated sources in May 2009 is not reliable at all. For example, in late May 2009, the Times newspapers quoted 20,000 dead. Later estimates in the year went up to 40,000. Even later estimates by one of the UN Panel Yasmin Sooka went even higher to 75,000. If a survey is ever done in Sri Lanka (which likely never will happen, as the Sri Lankan government is still intimidating witnesses and is engaged in a cover up), a figure over 100,000 is likely to be met which fits with the census deficits [[User:Oz346|Oz346]] ([[User talk:Oz346|talk]]) 00:33, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
::::https://www.crisisgroup.org/asia/south-asia/sri-lanka/sri-lankas-dead-and-missing-need-accounting
::::https://www.tamilnet.com/art.html?catid=13&artid=33380
::::These above articles suggest 100,000+ civilians missing from the 2009 war. [[User:Oz346|Oz346]]([[User talk:Oz346|talk]]) 00:43, 19 February 2021 (UTC)
:::::{{ping|Oz346}} Thank you for joining the discussion on the Talk page. Let us be focused, concise and refrain from tangential discussions about one's opinions and beliefs. Please download the UN Panel report published on 31 March 2011 and read the section "E. The number of civilian deaths". In Paragraph 133, it clearly states that "others" have estimated 75,000 deaths, however, the Panel concludes in Paragraph 137, "up to 40,000 civilian deaths cannot be ruled out". The UN Panel, that includes Yasmin Sooka, appears to disagree with your assertions. [[User:Jayingeneva|Jayingeneva]] ([[User talk:Jayingeneva|talk]]) 18:02, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
::::::::{{ping|Jayingeneva}}I have personally been in the audience of Yasmin Sooka, when she herself publicly said to Stephen Sackur of the BBC during the book launch of 'Still counting the dead' in October 2012 that she believed that the death toll was closer to 75,000. Now it is true many government apologists want to cover up the death toll and reduce it as low as possible.[[User:Oz346|Oz346]] ([[User talk:Oz346|talk]]) 18:47, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
:::::::::{{ping|Oz346}} We have to be objective and consistent. The UN Panel report published in 2011, which she was a prominent member of, concluded "up to 40,000" and disregarded 75,000. As you say, what stops a "government apologist" from coming along and saying the death toll is only 7,000 because X, Y and Z said so verbally in a discussion? We end up with a situation where they argue it's 7,000 and you argue it's 75,000. It leads to yet another edit war. [[User:Jayingeneva|Jayingeneva]] ([[User talk:Jayingeneva|talk]]) 19:53, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
:::::::{{ping|Kanatonian}}, {{ping|Obi2canibe}}, {{ping|Oz346}} Is edit [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Sri_Lankan_Civil_War&diff=1006891705&oldid=1006099297 1006099297], by an unknown editor, vandalism? [[User:Jayingeneva|Jayingeneva]] ([[User talk:Jayingeneva|talk]]) 18:08, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
:::::::{{ping|Kanatonian}}, {{ping|Obi2canibe}}, {{ping|Oz346}} Could the description of the death toll be split into 'official UN estimate', 'Sri Lankan government estimate', 'LTTE and affiliated organisation's estimates'? That would increase the encyclopaedic value of this page and allow the reader to understand the complexity of the conflict and the difficulties facing reconciliation. [[User:Jayingeneva|Jayingeneva]] ([[User talk:Jayingeneva|talk]]) 18:12, 21 February 2021 (UTC)
:::::::::: That's not a bad idea [[User:Kanatonian|Kanatonian]] ([[User talk:Kanatonian|talk]]) 21:42, 25 February 2021 (UTC)
{{outdent}} {{ping|Jayingeneva}} I don't know if you're a genuine editor or a troll but saying that 80,000-100,000 were killed is unbelievable. The fact is that there is no "official" estimate of the death toll. The Sri Lankan government went to great lengths during and after the war to hide casualty levels. We will probably never know how many died.
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:Please do a self-reversion. [[User:Jayingeneva|Jayingeneva]] ([[User talk:Jayingeneva|talk]]) 01:34, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
::Obi2canibe is right. The May 2009 quote from the UN you are using is highly unreliable. It is very suspicious why one would push that source, especially if one has basic knowledge of the human rights situation in Sri Lanka.
::After May 2009, starting with the confidential UN leaks, the true extent of the death toll in the final phase of the war was becoming apparent with tens of thousands of dead. Why would one stubbornly use that May 2009 source, unless they wanted to reduce the extent of the death toll.[[User:Oz346|Oz346]] ([[User talk:Oz346|talk]]) 09:32, 3 March 2021 (UTC)
:::{{ping|Oz346}} As I said above, you can disagree with the official UN estimate. However, you can not simply pretend that it doesn't exist. Can you please elaborate why the UN estimate is "highly unreliable"? Can you please suggest which estimates are 'reliable'? The IDP numbers were also tracked by the UN. Those are the numbers the UN Panel report uses to define a possible range. It seems you don't like some UN stats, but like other UN stats. Also, can you please clarify whether you agree with the 100,000-276,000 death toll that Obi2canibe just re-introduced? Where does this 276,000 number come from? [[User:Jayingeneva|Jayingeneva]] ([[User talk:Jayingeneva|talk]]) 00:45, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
::::For the silent readers reading this. The UN were accused of suppressing the death toll during the war to prevent them from looking bad. The article which Jay is stubbornly trying to use is from this period of cover up. This cover up was confirmed by the UN's own internal reports (read the Petrie report and UN report itself.) Anonymous UN whistle blowers reported to the The Times newspapers of at least 20,000 + dead in late May 2009 (estimates later went up to 40,000, 75,000 and even 100,000 + from the census deficits). Jay now appears engaged in continuing this cover up by using the old statistics from the cover up period.[[User:Oz346|Oz346]] ([[User talk:Oz346|talk]]) 09:04, 4 March 2021 (UTC)
:::::{{ping|Oz346}} When death tolls are collated, they are based on confirmed deaths. The UN Panel Report in 2011 clearly states that counting confirmed deaths was not possible in the last week of the war, "The United Nations Country Team is one source of information; in a document that was never released publicly, it estimated a total figure of 7,721 killed and 18,479 injured from August 2008 up to 13 May 2009, after which it became too difficult to count". The official UN estimate was not a range prior to the final phases of the war.
:::::The 2011 UN Panel report also states, "Others have put the estimate at 75,000" and dismisses the figure by concluding, "but multiple sources of information indicate that a range of up to 40,000 civilian deaths cannot be ruled out at this stage."
:::::Where did you get the 100,000+ estimate from? From the estimates you have listed, would it be fair to say that 276,000 looks like [[WP:VD]]? :::::[[User:Jayingeneva|Jayingeneva]] ([[User talk:Jayingeneva|talk]]) 01:14, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
::::::if anyone is vandalising or distorting its you. It is clear what your motive is. To cover up the death toll to aid the Sri Lankan government cover up.
::::::"dismisses the figure" You need to learn the definition of dismiss. Because the UN does not dismiss the 70,000+ figure at all. Only Sri Lankan government supporters dismiss that figure. No neutral does. But the silent readers can make their own mind up.[[User:Oz346|Oz346]] ([[User talk:Oz346|talk]]) 16:16, 5 March 2021 (UTC)
:::::::{{outdent}} {{ping|Oz346}} Can you please provide examples of what you believe to be vandalism? Also, please explain where this 276,000 death toll number comes from? In general, citations and quotes would be appreciated. This conversation is of no value if you can't provide citations. It might be worth reading [[WP:NPA]].
:::::::The UN Panel report refers to the 75,000 estimate here:
::::::::"133. Some have developed estimates based on the statistics of the injured and dead collected by the doctors, which were collated by the hospitals and the District Disaster Management Unit. One estimate is that there were approximately 40,000 surgical procedures and 5,000 amputations performed during the final phase. Depending on the ratio of injuries to deaths, estimated at various times to be 1:2 or 1:3, this could point to a much higher casualty figure. Others have put the estimate at 75,000, a figure obtained by subtracting the number of people who emerged from the conflict zone (approximately 290,000) from the estimate of the number thought to have been in the conflict zone (approximately 330,000 in the NFZ from January, plus approximately the 35,000, who emerged from the LTTE-held areas before that time)."
:::::::The UN Panel then refers to the 7,721 estimate here:
::::::::"134. The United Nations Country Team is one source of information; in a document that was never released publicly, it estimated a total figure of 7,721 killed and 18,479 injured from August 2008 up to 13 May 2009, after which it became too difficult to count. In early February 2009, the United Nations started a process of compiling casualty figures, although efforts were hindered by lack of access. An internal “Crisis Operation Group” was formed to collect reliable information regarding civilian casualties and other humanitarian concerns. In order to calculate a total casualty figure, the Group took figures from RDHS as the baseline, using reports from national staff of the United Nations and NGOs, inside the Vanni, the ICRC, religious authorities and other sources to cross-check and verify the baseline. The methodology was quite conservative: if an incident could not be verified by three sources or could have been double-counted, it was dismissed. Figures emanating from sources that could be perceived as biased, such as Tamil Net, were dismissed, as were Government sources outside the Vanni."
:::::::The UN Panel report dismisses the 7,721 and 75,000 number by asserting "up to 40,000" in the conclusion of the section:
::::::::"137. In the limited surveys that have been carried out in the aftermath of the conflict, the percentage of people reporting dead relatives is high. A number of credible sources have estimated that there could have been as many as 40,000 civilian deaths. Two years after the end of the war, there is still no reliable figure for civilian deaths, but multiple sources of information indicate that a range of up to 40,000 civilian deaths cannot be ruled out at this stage. Only a proper investigation can lead to the identification of all of the victims and to the formulation of an accurate figure for the total number of civilian deaths."
:::::::It is clear the section first describes the various estimates and then concludes with what it believes to be reasonable. [[User:Jayingeneva|Jayingeneva]] ([[User talk:Jayingeneva|talk]]) 18:01, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
::::::::The UN panel report does not state anywhere that the 75,000 number is unreasonable or not credible. Only Sinhala racists say that to cover up the depraved deeds of their army. Just because the UN panel mention the more conservative 40,000 estimate in their final conclusion, is just that, a cautious estimate. Only someone with an agenda would distort this to mean that the UN panel outright dismiss the 75,000 figure. Especially when we have Yasmin Sooka, one of the UN panel saying on record that she believed the death toll was closer to 75,000.
::::::::The follow up UN Internal Panel report in 2012 said on page 14:
::::::::'Other sources have referred to '''credible''' information indicating '''that over 70,000 people are unaccounted for.''''
::::::::Now maybe in Sri Lanka, where lie means truth, and truth means lie, you would interpret that as a dismissal of the 70,000+ figure. But this is not Sri Lanka, this is wikipedia.[[User:Oz346|Oz346]] ([[User talk:Oz346|talk]]) 18:43, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
:::::::::{{outdent}} {{ping|Oz346}} To a native English speaker, "but multiple sources of information indicate that a range of up to 40,000 civilian deaths cannot be ruled out at this stage", is a carefully qualified statement setting the maximum limit of the range.
:::::::::Thank you for providing a quote and bringing my attention to the UN Internal Review report. Again, one needs to read the entire paragraph to realise it describes various estimates and, in this instance, makes no conclusion:
::::::::::"34. On 19 May, with the death of the LTTE’s leadership, the Government claimed victory in the war. The final phase of the decades-long Sri Lankan conflict was catastrophic. The Panel of Experts stated that “[a] number of credible sources have estimated that there could have been as many as 40,000 civilian deaths”. Some Government sources state the number was well below 10,000. Other sources have referred to credible information indicating that over 70,000 people are unaccounted for."
:::::::::That paragraph uses the term "deaths" when referring to "as many as 40,000" and uses the term "unaccounted for" when referring to "over 70,000". In a UN document, one would assume the choice of words is very deliberate. [[User:Jayingeneva|Jayingeneva]] ([[User talk:Jayingeneva|talk]]) 00:32, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
::::::::::"setting the maximum limit of the range."
::::::::::That is your biased conjecture. They say nothing of the sort. There is no mention of 'upper limits'. You come to that conclusion yourself out of thin air.[[User:Oz346|Oz346]] ([[User talk:Oz346|talk]]) 10:43, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
::::::::::A whistle blower in the Sri Lankan Army said the following:
::::::::::https://www.channel4.com/news/the-sri-lankan-soldiers-whose-hearts-turned-to-stone
::::::::::The Sri Lankan government attempted to cover up such acts by burying the bodies in mass graves, according to “Fernando”.
::::::::::“Massive numbers of children, women and men were killed in the final stages of the war. When I say massive, in Puthumathalan alone, over 1500 civilians were killed.
::::::::::“But they couldn’t bury all of them. What they did was, '''they bought a bulldozer, they spread the dead bodies out and put sand on top of them''', making it look like a bund.
::::::::::“I saw 1500 bodies only in Puthumathalan, but '''I saw the same happen to more than 50,000 people like that'''.”
::::::::::Questioned on the accuracy of the numbers he cited, “Fernando” said: “In the final stage, all that I saw in Puthumathalan were dead bodies. When I entered the last place… it was totally full of dead bodies.
::::::::::“They wanted to clear them that’s why they brought that big vehicle. All they could do was just put sand on them. In some areas you couldn’t go because there was such a terrible smell of decomposing bodies.”
::::::::::“They were just innocent Tamil civilians and did not belong to either warring party.” [[User:Oz346|Oz346]] ([[User talk:Oz346|talk]]) 12:19, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
::::::::::What is more disgusting than mass murdering tens of thousands of civilians, preventing independent witnesses to enter the massacre site, burying the bodies in mass graves, importing bone dissolving chemicals to destroy the evidence, is to try and bury the truth. I repeat this is wikipedia, not Sri Lanka [[User:Oz346|Oz346]] ([[User talk:Oz346|talk]]) 12:23, 7 March 2021 (UTC)
{{outdent}} {{ping|Jayingeneva}} If you don't like the Guardian source, here are [[BBC News]], [[Reuters]] and [[Al Jazeera]] reports from 2007 giving a death toll of 70,000 ([http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6898002.stm 1], [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7074450.stm 2], [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7116335.stm 3], [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7153213.stm 4], [https://www.reuters.com/article/srilanka-violence-idINCOL24265920071015 5], [https://www.reuters.com/article/idINIndia-30337920071105 6], [https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2007/10/12/sri-lanka-fighting-claims-lives-2 7], [https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2007/11/13/several-dead-in-sri-lanka-clashes 8]).