User talk:Doc James - Wikipedia
3 people in discussion
Note: Mostly over at MDWiki.org
What do you think of the BRI vs. BMI? Also, this.
We don't have an article on BRI yet, but it's getting more public attention. Might be worthwhile to include in your calculators project. Zefr (talk) 01:28, 21 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
- User:Zefr Yah for sure it would be reasonable to have that calculator aswell. Do you want to give it a try building it? It is not that complicated. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 02:07, 21 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
- Sure. Will work at it over the next few days, and will alert you here. Zefr (talk) 02:18, 21 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
- A start class article is completed. Would benefit from your review and edits. Zefr (talk) 02:29, 24 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
- Amazing. You want to build a calculator to go in the article? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 02:09, 25 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
- Using this format, I drafted an equation and tried to solve my own BRI, but it looked and felt clumsy.
- When you say "build", how does that work? It would be a significant public contribution for Wikipedia to provide a calculator. The one in the article is easy to use, but is owned by a commercial enterprise. The one offered in the Thomas article is defunct.
- For the article, I copied and cited the equation from the 'BRI definition' in the Zhang article, but the original equation development is more extensive and calculus-based under 'Supplementary material' (downloadable file) in the Thomas article. Zefr (talk) 02:42, 25 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
- User:Zefr Okay here is a draft User:Doc James/BRI. Will need some work to get it to function with metric and imperial like we have for BMI. Also need to figure out how to get two significant figures after the decimal point. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:24, 25 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
- The variables presented in the calculation in your draft and in the article (from the Zhang source) are waist circumference and height, but the original Thomas calculation (from the publication under Web-based Calculator states:
Screen shot of Body Roundness Calculator. After the user enters personal information for age, height, weight, sex, race, waist and hip circumferences, the program outputs total percent body fat, amount and percent of VAT, the body roundness index, and whether the individual is within the determined healthy range of body roundness. A graph depicting the resulting individual ellipse (African American curve) and healthy range (green shaded area) provide the user a visual representation of their body roundness relative to the healthy range.
(my underlining). - In the Discussion, Thomas summarizes: "we may have reached the limits of maximal accuracy of predictions of VAT and % body fat that rely solely on the circumference measurements (waist and hip), age, height, sex, race, and weight."
- The easy-to-use calculator here uses these same 6 variables (race/ethnicity is optional).
- I explained in the article under Calculation: "The only device needed to determine BRI is a measuring tape for circumference of waist and hips, and determination of height," which comes from the sources.
- Thoughts on best dealing with these variations for the BRI calculator? Zefr (talk) 18:47, 25 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
- That calculator provide Percent Body Fat, BMI, and BRI. Depending which one of those you want you need to provide different variable. For BRI you only need height and waist. And that is all my BRI calculator uses. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:56, 25 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
- Anyway the calculator can also be adjusted to take imperial as we see here mdwiki:Template:BMI calculator2 Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 00:25, 26 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
- That calculator provide Percent Body Fat, BMI, and BRI. Depending which one of those you want you need to provide different variable. For BRI you only need height and waist. And that is all my BRI calculator uses. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:56, 25 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
- The variables presented in the calculation in your draft and in the article (from the Zhang source) are waist circumference and height, but the original Thomas calculation (from the publication under Web-based Calculator states:
- User:Zefr Okay here is a draft User:Doc James/BRI. Will need some work to get it to function with metric and imperial like we have for BMI. Also need to figure out how to get two significant figures after the decimal point. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:24, 25 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
- Amazing. You want to build a calculator to go in the article? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 02:09, 25 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
- A start class article is completed. Would benefit from your review and edits. Zefr (talk) 02:29, 24 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
- Sure. Will work at it over the next few days, and will alert you here. Zefr (talk) 02:18, 21 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
- User:Zefr Yah for sure it would be reasonable to have that calculator aswell. Do you want to give it a try building it? It is not that complicated. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 02:07, 21 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
User:Zefr Built another one here mdwiki:Pulmonary_embolism#Probability_testing Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 00:57, 26 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
- Both the BMI and PE calculators are nice. What is needed to finish the BRI calculator? Zefr (talk) 01:07, 26 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Another one at mdwiki:Chest_pain#Risk_scores. Same data that EN WP provides but is interactive and calculates a result based on user imputs. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 02:04, 26 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
- Another good one. Given your experience in building the BMI calculator, can't that one be the model to complete the BRI? I wasn't following the VP-Tech discussion you had earlier this month - are there editors from there that could finish the BRI?
- As I didn't have VP-Tech on my watchlist, and didn't know about your discussion, I posted a question there today. Apologies for the replication. Zefr (talk) 02:42, 26 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
- User:Zefr tool takes a bit of trial and error. Have the inputs formating correctly for metric and imperial here User:Doc James/BRI2 but just struggling to get the formula to work... Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:22, 26 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
- User:Zefr okay have it working now. Will need to get the tool activated by default to have it be generally useful. That will require consensus at WT:MED and VPT. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 15:16, 26 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
- Does look good, thanks. The equation in the article was rewritten with this interesting history.
- Uwappa had some thoughts about color-coding the cells. What do you think?
- As you are working on several calculators, are you going to provide a list for WT:MED to review? VPT seems it's had enough discussion about calculators for now. Zefr (talk) 15:45, 26 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
- We have both formating styles for BMI results mdwiki:Body mass index. IMO no need to limit oneself to one.
- Yes working on a bunch of calculators for MDWiki. If folks here wish to use some of them they are more then welcome to. All material licensed under a compatible license. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 15:51, 26 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
- What do you recommend next for the BRI calculator being in the article? Should it be applied as for BMI, or was there something further you'd prefer to tweak or add? Zefr (talk) 16:40, 26 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
- User:Zefr IMO I think it is ready to go in the article. But we would need to get it turned on for general use. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:33, 26 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
- Done, with thanks for your quick work. As a fairly wide box, it seems practical in the white space beside the TOC, knowing this may violate a style rule. Thoughts? Zefr (talk) 18:01, 26 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
- Placed in the infobox... Let me know what you think?
- Also it does not work unless people have turned the gadget on. So we either need to build a notice for those who do not have it on how to turn on the gadget, or get it activated by default.
- Asked at User_talk:Xaosflux#Updating Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:11, 26 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
- Good point about the gadget - most visitors to the page would not know otherwise, and may be frustrated by an unsolved BRI (IP users especially).
- Concerning the BRI for % total fat and % visceral adipose tissue, Thomas says "maximal accuracy of predictions of VAT and % body fat rely solely on the circumference measurements (waist and hip), age, height, sex, race, and weight", indicating another calculator including the additional 5 variables - hip, age, gender, ethnicity, weight - would offer something more (possibly only for researchers)... or does this get too deep into the weeds? Zefr (talk) 18:39, 26 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
- One could build other calculators for % total fat and % visceral adipose tissue, these are different than BRI though. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 19:13, 26 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
- Good points. Seems best for the widest viewership to remove it until a fix or disclaimer is provided. Thoughts? Zefr (talk) 01:34, 27 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
- One could build other calculators for % total fat and % visceral adipose tissue, these are different than BRI though. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 19:13, 26 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
- Done, with thanks for your quick work. As a fairly wide box, it seems practical in the white space beside the TOC, knowing this may violate a style rule. Thoughts? Zefr (talk) 18:01, 26 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
- User:Zefr IMO I think it is ready to go in the article. But we would need to get it turned on for general use. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 17:33, 26 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
- What do you recommend next for the BRI calculator being in the article? Should it be applied as for BMI, or was there something further you'd prefer to tweak or add? Zefr (talk) 16:40, 26 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
- User:Zefr okay have it working now. Will need to get the tool activated by default to have it be generally useful. That will require consensus at WT:MED and VPT. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 15:16, 26 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
- User:Zefr tool takes a bit of trial and error. Have the inputs formating correctly for metric and imperial here User:Doc James/BRI2 but just struggling to get the formula to work... Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:22, 26 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Discussion now at Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)#Turning_on_the_Calculator_gadget_as_default Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 18:33, 26 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
- Thought 1: Provide realistic default values.
- The calculator will show a meaningful result from the start, even to readers who do not input numbers.
- Meaningful default input examples are more inviting to enter real data. Also it will require less clicks to step up/down, compared to clicking all the way from zero.
- Exceptions like "NaN" and "infinity" will be rare.
- Thought 2: Compute a healthy target. Given the input height, what range should the weight or waist be to score "green"? E.g. for a height of 180cm, a 'green' weight should be in the range 60-81kg. Uwappa (talk) 15:45, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
- Yah default values are already possible. What would you like them to be. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 16:01, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
- Any realistic numbers will do. So, just go for something close to the worldwide average? Numbers found using Wolphram Alpha:
- height: 162 cm
- weight: 69 kg
- And update those defaults later when anyone comes up with a better idea? Uwappa (talk) 16:25, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
- Any realistic numbers will do. So, just go for something close to the worldwide average? Numbers found using Wolphram Alpha:
- Yah default values are already possible. What would you like them to be. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 16:01, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
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