Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lauren Fagan: Difference between revisions - Wikipedia

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Revision as of 03:45, 27 September 2024 edit Liz (talk \| contribs) Autopatrolled, Administrators 727,297 edits ← Previous edit		Revision as of 01:21, 29 September 2024 edit undo GMH Melbourne (talk \| contribs) Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, New page reviewers, Rollbackers 14,052 edits Next edit →
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	*'''Keep''' - although I would greatly prefer that someone add the sources found and explain in context - per [[WP:HEY]]. I am an opera queen, but I’m not familiar with the subject. [[User:Bearian\|Bearian]] ([[User talk:Bearian\|talk]]) 01:38, 25 September 2024 (UTC)		*'''Keep''' - although I would greatly prefer that someone add the sources found and explain in context - per [[WP:HEY]]. I am an opera queen, but I’m not familiar with the subject. [[User:Bearian\|Bearian]] ([[User talk:Bearian\|talk]]) 01:38, 25 September 2024 (UTC)
	:<p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"><span style="color: #FF6600;">'''{{resize\|91%\|[[Wikipedia:Deletion process#Relisting discussions\|Relisted]] to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}'''</span><br />'''Relisting comment:''' Relisting to see if we can get a review of the sources. A reminder, AFD isn't CSD so we needn't be focused on a previous tagging and stick with standard notability assessment of creative professionals that occurs in AFD deletion discussions.<br /><small>Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">[[User:Liz\|'''''L'''''iz]]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">[[Special:Contributions/Liz\|'''''Read!''''']] [[User talk:Liz\|'''''Talk!''''']]</sup> 03:09, 27 September 2024 (UTC)</small><!-- from Template:XfD relist --><noinclude>[[Category:Relisted AfD debates\|Lauren Fagan]]</noinclude></p>		:<p class="xfd_relist" style="margin:0 0 0 -1em;border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 2em;"><span style="color: #FF6600;">'''{{resize\|91%\|[[Wikipedia:Deletion process#Relisting discussions\|Relisted]] to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.}}'''</span><br />'''Relisting comment:''' Relisting to see if we can get a review of the sources. A reminder, AFD isn't CSD so we needn't be focused on a previous tagging and stick with standard notability assessment of creative professionals that occurs in AFD deletion discussions.<br /><small>Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, <span style="font-family:Papyrus; color:#800080;">[[User:Liz\|'''''L'''''iz]]</span> <sup style="font-family: Times New Roman; color: #006400;">[[Special:Contributions/Liz\|'''''Read!''''']] [[User talk:Liz\|'''''Talk!''''']]</sup> 03:09, 27 September 2024 (UTC)</small><!-- from Template:XfD relist --><noinclude>[[Category:Relisted AfD debates\|Lauren Fagan]]</noinclude></p>
			* '''Comment''': {{ source assess table \|
			{{ source assess
			\| source = https://www.rbo.org.uk/people/lauren-fagan
			\| ind = n
			\| ind_just = From a website which seems to have an vested interest in promoting Fagan
			\| rel = n
			\| rel_just =
			\| sig = y
			\| sig_just =
			}}
			{{ source assess
			\| source = https://www.rbo.org.uk/news/young-artist-profile-lauren-fagan-being-an-opera-singer-isnt-a-normal-job-its-a-vocation-that-influences-your-whole-life
			\| ind = n
			\| ind_just = From a website which seems to have an vested interest in promoting Fagan
			\| rel = n
			\| rel_just =
			\| sig = y
			\| sig_just =
			}}
			{{ source assess
			\| source = https://www.harrisonparrott.com/artists/lauren-fagan
			\| ind = n
			\| ind_just = Talent management agency
			\| rel = n
			\| rel_just =
			\| sig = y
			\| sig_just =
			}}
			{{ source assess
			\| source = https://www.theguardian.com/music/2018/may/30/la-traviata-opera-holland-park-review-verdi
			\| ind = y
			\| ind_just =
			\| rel = y
			\| rel_just =
			\| sig = y
			\| sig_just =
			}}
			{{ source assess
			\| source = musicalamerica.com/news/newsstory.cfm?storyID=50995&categoryID=2
			\| ind = y
			\| ind_just =
			\| rel = ?
			\| rel_just =
			\| sig = y
			\| sig_just =
			}}
			{{ source assess
			\| source = https://www.thetimes.com/article/la-boheme-opera-review-royal-opera-house-london-rk3khdt9h
			\| ind = y
			\| ind_just =
			\| rel = y
			\| rel_just =
			\| sig = ?
			\| sig_just = Paywall
			}}
			}} [[User:GMH Melbourne\|GMH Melbourne]] ([[User talk:GMH Melbourne\|talk]]) 01:21, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Revision as of 01:21, 29 September 2024

Lauren Fagan

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Article makes no claim to encyclopedic importance. It should have been speedy deleted per WP:A7 but it was oddly declined. Being a student and in a program that trains opera singers does not make one encyclopedic. 4meter4 (talk) 02:55, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Bands and musicians, Women, and Australia. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 05:52, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Thank you, 4meter4, but as a long-term editor, one would expect you to at least follow WP:BEFORE before an AfD nom. Fagan was a student in 2016, some eight years ago. She is now a successful soprano. For example, she sang Musetta in La bohème at Covent Garden earlier this year. A simple search of Google News turns up plenty of results. AfD is not clean-up. Edwardx (talk) 09:25, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Edwardx WP:SPEEDY is different than a WP:GNG deletion rationale. The article still fails to make a credible encyclopedic claim in its current state and should be deleted under A7. SPEEDY is cleanup for articles that don’t meet a basic level of stub competency. Please read A7 which specifically excludes notability as a relevant issue. Yes notable topics can get deleted under A7.4meter4 (talk) 13:26, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@4meter4 Your CSD nom was declined. AfD is not for relitigating declined CSDs. Different criteria apply at AfD. You need to make a different argument. Edwardx (talk) 13:47, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No. That argument is WP:WIKILAWYERING and a subversion of both deletion policy and WP:CONSENSUS. It was the wrong call to not delete this article under A7 which doesn't make a credible encyclopedic claim. It's perfectly valid to seek community consensus to overturn a bad decision made by an editor who ignored A7 policy. If you want the encyclopedia to keep this article than I suggest you edit the article to meet a basic level of encyclopedic competence so A7 isn't valid. Otherwise, we don't keep articles on WP:BLPs that don't make a credible claim of encyclopedic importance no matter how many sources we find because WP:Notability is not relevant under A7 which is policy.4meter4 (talk) 13:52, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you think it "was the wrong call to not delete this article under A7", then why have you not raised this at User talk:asilvering? It was their call, not mine. Edwardx (talk) 14:06, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That should be obvious. It's better to use the WP:CONSENSUS process when there is a difference of opinions. That's wikipedia community policy, and WP:AFD is the community forum to discuss deletions. FYI WP:SPEEDY policy gets used at AFD with some frequency. It's not like this is an out of the norm conversation. Not all AFDs involve just WP:N. Best.4meter4 (talk) 14:11, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

On a side note, the tone of the comments here is overly terse and accusatory. You might want to try WP:AGF and actually look at A7 policy objectively. You can't seriously be telling me that an article telling us someone went to a music school and got into a training program for opera singers is encyclopedic.4meter4 (talk) 14:22, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: Seems more than just a student. There are roles in major notable productions, as well as sources like these [1] TheJoyfulTentmaker (talk) 14:40, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@TheJoyfulTentmaker WP:A7 has to do with in article text. Not what is outside the article. Please engage with WP:A7 policy language.4meter4 (talk) 14:47, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. It seems like none of the keep voters are engaging with WP:A7 as policy. If the current in article text remains unaltered and we close this as keep, this will be a prime candidate fro WP:DELETIONREVIEW. We either follow deletion policy or we don't. It's that simple. If editors are finding encyclopedic achievements not currently in the article text please add a sentence or two to the article so that A7 is no longer an issue. 4meter4 (talk) 14:52, 20 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I think these are about this person [2], [3], but I'm unsure. European opera isn't in my wheelhouse. Oaktree b (talk) 00:43, 21 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - although I would greatly prefer that someone add the sources found and explain in context - per WP:HEY. I am an opera queen, but I’m not familiar with the subject. Bearian (talk) 01:38, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting to see if we can get a review of the sources. A reminder, AFD isn't CSD so we needn't be focused on a previous tagging and stick with standard notability assessment of creative professionals that occurs in AFD deletion discussions.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 03:09, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comment:

Source	Independent?	Reliable?	Significant coverage?	Count source toward GNG?
Source assessment table:
https://www.rbo.org.uk/people/lauren-fagan	From a website which seems to have an vested interest in promoting Fagan			✘ No
https://www.rbo.org.uk/news/young-artist-profile-lauren-fagan-being-an-opera-singer-isnt-a-normal-job-its-a-vocation-that-influences-your-whole-life	From a website which seems to have an vested interest in promoting Fagan			✘ No
https://www.harrisonparrott.com/artists/lauren-fagan	Talent management agency			✘ No
https://www.theguardian.com/music/2018/may/30/la-traviata-opera-holland-park-review-verdi				✔ Yes
musicalamerica.com/news/newsstory.cfm?storyID=50995&categoryID=2		?		? Unknown
https://www.thetimes.com/article/la-boheme-opera-review-royal-opera-house-london-rk3khdt9h			? Paywall	? Unknown
This table may not be a final or consensus view; it may summarize developing consensus, or reflect assessments of a single editor. Created using {{source assess table}}.

GMH Melbourne (talk) 01:21, 29 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]