Talk:2024 Lebanon pager explosions: Difference between revisions - Wikipedia

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{{old move|date=17 September 2024|destination=2024 Lebanon–Syria pager explosions|result=not moved|link=Special:Permalink/1246569339#Requested move 17 September 2024}}

~~== Brace yourselves ==~~

Don't do it yet, but be prepared to create a [[2024 Israel-Lebanon war]] page. Hassan Nasrallah (leader of Hezbollah) announced that he [https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/09/19/israel-lebanon-attack-explosions-hezbollah/ considers the explosions to be an "act of war", or casus belli]. [[User:Bremps|'''Bremps''']][[User talk:Bremps|'''...''']] 15:14, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

:[https://www.timesofisrael.com/top-israeli-generals-approve-lebanon-offensive-battle-plans-army-says/| Hezbollah and Israel have been teasing this war since, like, June.] [[User:AmrAlWatan|AmrAlWatan]]([[User_talk:AmrAlWatan|🗣️]]|[[Special:Contributions/AmrAlWatan|📝]]) 20:27, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

:The article [[Israel%E2%80%93Hezbollah_conflict_(2023%E2%80%93present)]] already exists, since the armed conflict started on 8 October 2023. [[User:Dotyoyo|Dotyoyo]] ([[User talk:Dotyoyo|talk]]) 00:14, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

== Requested move 19 September 2024 ==

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*'''Oppose''' - The year might help some people find the article.[[User:DaringDonna|DaringDonna]] ([[User talk:DaringDonna|talk]]) 19:16, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''' Including the year is quite common for events and is much more descriptive of what event in question is being referenced. Not only now, but for the future as well. [[User:Silver seren|Silver]][[User talk:Silver seren|seren]][[Special:Contributions/Silver seren|C]] 05:00, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''' per [[WP:NCWWW]], the time period the event occurred in is important factor. Considering pagers are mostly an antiquated technology. '''[[User:cocoaguy|Cocoaguy]]''' [[User talk:cocoaguy|(talk)]] 14:53, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

*'''Support''' Per [[WP:NOYEAR]] and [[WP:CONCISE]]. Unnecessary. [[User:Sirfurboy|Sirfurboy🏄]] ([[User talk:Sirfurboy|talk]]) 17:39, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

=== Changing "Lebanon" to "Hezbollah" ===

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*'''Oppose''' Including the location or country is standard practice. Lebanon is perfectly descriptive and I don't see how there would realistically be any confusion toward Lebanon being the perpetrators. That's not an actual issue. The fact that the explosions also affected many others outside of the group in question is another reason to not specify it only to the group. [[User:Silver seren|Silver]][[User talk:Silver seren|seren]][[Special:Contributions/Silver seren|C]] 05:02, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''': Per VR, the primary location of the events, Lebanon, should be in the title as stated in [[WP:NCWWW]]. [[User:मल्ल|मल्ल]] ([[User talk:मल्ल|talk]]) 20:18, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''' per [[WP:NCWWW]] the location takes precident here in the naming conventions. There should likely be a redirect page with other names included. '''[[User:cocoaguy|Cocoaguy]]''' [[User talk:cocoaguy|(talk)]] 14:59, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

*'''Support'''. More precise name which is also used by RS [https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cz04m913m49o BBC], [https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/09/24/hezbollah-pager-explosions-lebanon-israel-middle-east-iran-us-policy/ Foreign Policy]. [[User:Alaexis|Alaexis]][[User_talk:Alaexis|¿question?]] 09:12, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

*'''Support''' - As has been noted, multiple sources including the BBC, have used Hezbollah device explosions. That is the most concise and accurate title. [[User:Sirfurboy|Sirfurboy🏄]] ([[User talk:Sirfurboy|talk]]) 17:42, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

=== Changing "pagers" to "electronics"/"communications" ===

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*'''Support''', as the explosions involved more than just pagers. I think this is the easiest part of the RFC to resolve. What exploded? Pagers, radios, maybe other things. Electronic devices or electronics should be used. "Electronic devices" is clearest, but it does add a word making the title longer. — [[User:rsjaffe|rsjaffe]] [[User talk:rsjaffe|🗣️]] 23:48, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

*'''Support''' either '''electronics''' or '''devices'''. The page's scope includes attacks involving more than just pagers. [[User:मल्ल|मल्ल]] ([[User talk:मल्ल|talk]]) 20:18, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''' It is the most known part about the incident. It is how the incident was described in the press and the average person is going to remember the pagers. Also it was the first part of the incident. Although other devices were involved I think the pagers are what stands out to most people. '''[[User:cocoaguy|Cocoaguy]]''' [[User talk:cocoaguy|(talk)]] 15:01, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

*'''Support''' - Pagers is wrong. '''device''' would match what many sources are using, e.g. the BBC [https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cz04m913m49o]. I do not understand the logic for keeping "pagers" just because that is better known than the walkie talkies (and is it?). The page is about both types of device. Move will leave an appropriate redirect. [[User:Sirfurboy|Sirfurboy🏄]] ([[User talk:Sirfurboy|talk]]) 11:45, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

=== Changing "explosions" to "attacks" ===

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*'''Comment''' - Some editors are considering these sections entirely separately - and I think that puts us at risk of having a title that is very unclear/ambiguous. {{tq|Pager attacks}} is pretty clear (attack on pagers), {{tq|electronics explosions}} is clear (there were electronics that exploded), but {{tq|electronics attack(s)}} is ambiguous. Was it an [[electronic attack]] (i.e. jamming)? Was it an attack on electronics infrastructure (i.e. cell phone towers or internet infrastructure)? Was it an attack that ''used'' electronics as the vector for the attack (this is the closest)? Does anyone have ideas for potential other words (other than explosions or attacks) that may be better? -bɜ:ʳkənhɪmez | [[User:berchanhimez|me]] | [[User talk:berchanhimez|talk to me!]] 23:59, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

*:I can't think of much that isn't too wordy or problematic for other reasons – e.g. {{tq|explosive electronics attacks}} introduces more problems than it solves. I don't honestly think {{tq|electronics}} (plural) is ''that'' likely to cause confusion regarding [[electronic attack]]s (singular). A shame that something like {{tq|2024 explosive sabotage of Hezbollah communication devices}} is just so verbose... [[User:GhostOfNoMan|GhostOfNoMan]] 22:16, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

*::(I'm not suggesting that latter title; just an example of how lengthy a title can sometimes grow when the goal is to remove ''all'' ambiguity. Or it's just a display of the poverty of my imagination when it comes to naming things...) [[User:GhostOfNoMan|GhostOfNoMan]] 22:24, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

*'''Support''': Per my comment in the previous RM, RS describe the events as an attack. [[User:मल्ल|मल्ल]] ([[User talk:मल्ल|talk]]) 20:18, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

*'''Oppose''' - Sources are using "device explosions" and that is what has happened in both cases. Attacks is not wrong but explosions is more specific and equally concise. [[User:Sirfurboy|Sirfurboy🏄]] ([[User talk:Sirfurboy|talk]]) 17:46, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

=== Including "Israeli sabotage attack" ===

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::'''?! Edit failed due to a recent RMCD bot edit (0RR)''' is what I saw on my bot's console. Sorry, imposed a 0RR restriction on the bot to mitigate possible edit warring, and did not anticipate that a new RM would open within four hours of the close of another. If you had waited 24 hours to open the new RM, the bot would have been fine with it. My bot hasn't yet found the intelligence to distinguish between its short-term edits to two different requested moves on the same page. Frankly, the whole world is watching this one; I don't think an article notice is really necessary to draw more participation. – [[User:Wbm1058|wbm1058]] ([[User talk:Wbm1058|talk]]) 13:02, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

:::IMO the hatnote serves not merely to invite editors to participate in the debate, but also to alert non-editors that the current title may not reflect a settled consensus of editors. [[User:Jnestorius|jnestorius]]([[User talk:Jnestorius|talk]]) 15:09, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

::::I raised the bot's edit limit for posting in subject-space from 0RR to 1RR. Hopefully will mitigate this issue in the future. – [[User:Wbm1058|wbm1058]] ([[User talk:Wbm1058|talk]]) 00:17, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

:I have not seen an RFC before that has been divided into multiple sections with separate votes. Is this proper practice? [[User:Makeandtoss|Makeandtoss]] ([[User talk:Makeandtoss|talk]]) 12:25, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

::This is not an RFC; this is an RM. Sdkb suggested subsections for each part of the title, so I just did that. I don't find anything unusual about this, it helps a lot with discussion organization for complex and contentious article title discussions. If this was cut and dry then the proposed title would have been speedy moved in the last RM discussion. [[User:Awesome Aasim|Awesome]] [[User_talk:Awesome Aasim|Aasim]] 12:32, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

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::::Thanks for clarifying, but I don't see this new "trainwreck" of an RM. Help please so I can add my useless opinion, maybe. [[User:DaringDonna|DaringDonna]] ([[User talk:DaringDonna|talk]]) 19:11, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

:::::Never mind, I found it. [[User:DaringDonna|DaringDonna]] ([[User talk:DaringDonna|talk]]) 19:44, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

~~== Identities of the injured ==~~

~~Of the thousands who were injured, how many were Hezbollah members, civilians or both (many Hezbollah members are civilians)? We seem to have conflicting reports:~~

*The Lebanese Health Minister [https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2024/sep/17/middle-east-crisis-live-netanyahu-expands-gaza-war-aims-blinken-heads-to-egypt said] {{tq|The “vast majority” presenting to emergency rooms are in civilian clothes, Abiad told the broadcaster, adding that this makes it “very difficult to discern whether they belong to a certain entity like Hezbollah or others”. He added: But we are seeing among them people who are old or people who are very young, like the child who unfortunately died, and there are some of them who are health care workers."}}

**The Health Minister says during [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzHYsUVAtsA a CNN interview]: "{{tq|vast majority of them [casualties] were civilians}}" in response to a CNN interviewer's question on how many were un-affiliated with Hezbollah.

*BBC journalist at [[Hotel Dieu Hospital]] [https://www.bbc.com/news/live/cwyl9048gx8t?page=4 said] the patients there were "{{tq|mainly members of Hezbollah}}."

*The Washington Post [https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/09/19/israel-lebanon-attack-explosions-hezbollah/ reported] "{{tq|According to Lebanon’s Health Ministry...Among the casualties were women, children and the elderly, as well as medical workers and civil servants.}}"

*The Guardian [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/sep/17/hundreds-of-hezbollah-members-hurt-in-lebanon-after-pagers-explode quoted] an unnamed source saying "{{tq|A senior security source said pagers all over the country exploded, primarily wounding members of Hezbollah.}}"

*ABC News says "{{tq|The dead and injured included people who are not members of Hezbollah.}}" The claim isn't surprising, but it also doesn't cite the claim other than point out children killed.

I think we should mention both views: the Health Minister's view that most ''appear'' to be civilians, and other reports that most might be Hezbollah members. The lead should probably just mention that "many casualties were Hezbollah members, including civilian members of the organization, while others were unaffiliated civilians."'''[[User talk:Vice regent|VR]]''' (Please [[Template:Ping|ping]] on reply) 05:43, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

:Given the fact that Hezbollah membership is highly secret excerpt at the highest levels and the membership of individual rank and file members only becomes public after their deaths, I think the "civilian dress" metric is of zero value. Is there any evidence that Hezbollah does ''not'' use women and health care workers and the elderly as operatives? I could be proven wrong as more evidence emerges, but it looks to me at this time that the percentage of casualties that were Hezbollah operatives was exceptionally high, and the percentage of totally uninvolved civilian collateral damage injuries was exceptionally low. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 05:59, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

::What is your basis for saying "that the percentage of casualties that were Hezbollah operatives was exceptionally high"? What exactly do you mean by the word "operatives"? It has been pointed out many Hezbollah members are, in fact, civilians. Al Jazeera points out "{{tq|Some of the blasts struck members of Hezbollah who are not combatants, according to Lebanese media accounts. For example, Tuesday’s attack killed a medic who worked at Al Rassoul Al Azam Hospital, which is linked to Hezbollah-associated charities.}}" '''[[User talk:Vice regent|VR]]''' (Please [[Template:Ping|ping]] on reply) 06:16, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

:::What is the evidence that Hezbollah strictly diffentiates between its "civilian clothed" military [[Jihad Council]] members and its "civilian clothed" "non military" [[Loyalty to the Resistance Bloc]] members? Are you saying that it is impossible that a medic by day could be a rocket launch site combatant in civilian clothes at night? If there is such a strict differentiation, then why were both groups issued the same set of command and control electronic devices? Are the "civilians" free to do what they want and say what they want, or are they always commanded to follow military orders, upon pain of death? As for unnamed {{tpq|Lebanese media accounts}}, which of them in particular are considered reliable sources for use on Wikipedia? [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 07:09, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

~~::::Pinging {{u|Vice regent}} as requested. [[User:Cullen328|Cullen328]] ([[User talk:Cullen328|talk]]) 07:12, 20 September 2024 (UTC)~~

::::Thanks for the ping. Certainly anything is possible. But civilians must not be targeted under [[International Humanitarian Law]] unless the attacker has specific evidence of them taking part in hostilities. Is there evidence that the medic killed at [[Al Rassoul Al Azam Hospital]] was also launching rockets? From what I understand, the devices were fairly regular [[pagers]]; there was nothing specifically military about them. They could be used to communicate with soldiers and civilians alike. Hospital staff in the Middle East (and across the world) use pagers all the time. I agree we don't directly quite unnamed [[WP:PRIMARY]] sources, but when a reliable [[WP:SECONDARY]] source like Al-Jazeera relies on them, we can quote that secondary source's reporting.'''[[User talk:Vice regent|VR]]''' (Please [[Template:Ping|ping]] on reply) 07:44, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

:::::But there was something specifically military about the exploded pagers: they were ordered and issued by Hezhollah to its members (per a source we cite here, Hezbollah "said 4,000 pagers carried by Hezbollah members exploded"). So it becomes a question of when is a Hezbollah member (not) taking part in hostilities? In some countries every member of Hezbollah is deemed a terrorist, i.e. not a civilian, so the question only makes outside of those countries. [[User:Lklundin|Lklundin]] ([[User talk:Lklundin|talk]]) 19:09, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

~~::::::"Hezbollah members" is incredibly vague. Does it mean a doctor employed by a Hezbollah-run hospital or someone in the group's paramilitary wing? Can it mean both? How can we know?~~

::::::None of us, here, can possibly know which of the killed and injured people were civilians or combatants based merely on whether they're described as "members" of Hezbollah or not. So all we can do is rely on RSes and reflect the consensus.

~~::::::And if RSes disagree, then we can lay out that disagreement in broad strokes, as is [[WP:DUE]]. [[User:Lewisguile|Lewisguile]] ([[User talk:Lewisguile|talk]]) 10:58, 22 September 2024 (UTC)~~

::::::@[[User:Lklundin|Lklundin]] can you cite a source which says who exactly believes every Hezbollah member is a combatant? For example, we know the US designates entire Hezbollah organization, but can you cite a source that suggests this terrorist designation leads to US military lawyers advising that every Hezbollah member is a legitimate military target? '''[[User talk:Vice regent|VR]]''' (Please [[Template:Ping|ping]] on reply) 14:43, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

:The Lebanese Health Minister's claim can be mentioned, but shouldn't affect how we describe the events in wikivoice, since it's both a [[WP:PRIMARY|primary]] and [[WP:NIS|non-independent]] source. — [[User:XDanielx|xDanielx]] [[User talk:XDanielx|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/XDanielx|C]]\[[Wikipedia:Editor review/xDanielx|R]] 16:23, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

::I'm fine to include attribution. Keep in mind that ultimately, the most comprehensive casualty counts have come from government sources (the Israeli social security data for the [[October 7 Hamas attacks]], the Gaza Health Ministry for the [[Israeli invasion of Gaza]] etc.).'''[[User talk:Vice regent|VR]]''' (Please [[Template:Ping|ping]] on reply) 17:34, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

~~== A useful source==~~

I think that this source is useful to expand this article. Source is https://newsable.asianetnews.com/world/lebanon-pager-explosions-probe-turns-toward-kerala-man-malayali-company-financial-dealings-under-scrutiny-anr-sk3n1w. If this source is useful, please add content sourced to it. Source is from [[Asianet News]]. [[User:Pachu Kannan|Pachu Kannan]] ([[User talk:Pachu Kannan|talk]]) 07:28, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

~~:I'm not sure it's a very reliable source. [[User:Lewisguile|Lewisguile]] ([[User talk:Lewisguile|talk]]) 08:19, 22 September 2024 (UTC)~~

~~== Terrorism ==~~

~~RS have either used or reported on this attack being a form of terrorism by the Israeli state:~~

* Washington Post: "Numerous international law experts, including a U.N. panel, accused Israel of violating international law and carrying out a form of terrorism, no matter that it was an attempt to weaken a known terrorist organization." [https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2024/09/20/hezbollah-pager-attacks-israel-lebanon-war/ ]

* Jacobin: "Israel carried out two terrorist attacks across Lebanon this week, bringing the entire region ever closer to the brink of all-out war." [https://jacobin.com/2024/09/lebanon-israel-beeper-attacks-terrorism ]

~~Governments have also used this term:~~

* BBC: "Iranian Foreign Minister Abbas Araghchi said he told his Lebanese counterpart that he "strongly condemned Israeli terrorism"." [https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cd7xnelvpepo ]

* AJ: "Belgium’s deputy PM denounces ‘terror attack’ in Lebanon and Syria" [https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2024/9/18/israels-war-on-gaza-live-thousands-injured-in-lebanon-pager-explosions?update=3186244 ]

~~Maybe there are other RS I have missed, but clearly this should be highlighted in this article. [[User:Makeandtoss|Makeandtoss]] ([[User talk:Makeandtoss|talk]]) 12:34, 20 September 2024 (UTC)~~

: Terrorism is a value-laden and generally non-objective term. We can report on what significant people say, but Wikipedia should be very restrained in calling anything terrorism, or anyone a terrorist. We can say organization X designated Y a terrorist, but that's different from stating it as a conclusion. Obviously this is a high profile article and there's a lot at stake for people to try to sway this article away from NPOV. We should resist those efforts. [[User:Jehochman|Jehochman]] [[User talk:Jehochman|Talk]] 12:42, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

::It "should be highlighted in this article," does not imply that Wikipedia should call it anything or that is is a fact or conclusion. [[User:Makeandtoss|Makeandtoss]] ([[User talk:Makeandtoss|talk]]) 12:47, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

:::Choose any military event. We can scour the sources and find some that call it terrorism. The question is whether these claims are significant enough to deserve mention, or [[WP:FRINGE]]. I read a lot of news every day and haven't seen this claim featured prominently. I think the article should have [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Lebanon_pager_explosions#International_law a discussion] about whether these attacks are within the laws of war or not, presenting all sides in fair proportion. This is a fair question. [[User:Jehochman|Jehochman]] [[User talk:Jehochman|Talk]] 12:53, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

::::Numerous international law experts, including a U.N. panel, are obviously significant sources, and they deserve a mention, as they were reported by RS. That has no bearing on whatever other material that might be added. [[User:Makeandtoss|Makeandtoss]] ([[User talk:Makeandtoss|talk]]) 13:03, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

::@[[User:Jehochman|Jehochman]] I removed a link under See Also to [[list of terrorist incidents in 2024]] because this attack is not on that list. [[User:Seananony|Seananony]] ([[User talk:Seananony|talk]]) 02:35, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

:@[[User:Makeandtoss|Makeandtoss]] what is the basis for the terrorism claim? It is terrorism under Lebanese law? Under International law? I've been adding in the section "International law" a detailed basis for this being a [[war crime]]. But if there is no basis for the terrorism claim, maybe you can mention it in the Reactions section, but I wouldn't give it much more [[WP:WEIGHT]] than that. '''[[User talk:Vice regent|VR]]''' (Please [[Template:Ping|ping]] on reply) 17:37, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

::It isn’t a reaction, it’s a characterization. It doesn’t necessarily have to be under law, it can be made as a description by experts, which a UN panel and international law experts are. It can be added in body with attribution; it shouldn’t be controversial to reflect RS. [[User:Makeandtoss|Makeandtoss]] ([[User talk:Makeandtoss|talk]]) 17:52, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

:::@[[User:Makeandtoss|Makeandtoss]] [[Definition of terrorism|terrorism is a legal term]]. Under which law, is this act considered terrorism? Is there a detailed analysis that considers this terrorism, or do the sources just accuse Israel in passing? '''[[User talk:Vice regent|VR]]''' (Please [[Template:Ping|ping]] on reply) 13:58, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

::::We should mention it in the form of the WP and state that numerous international law experts have characterised it as an act of terrorism. That is uncontroversial. Many have, including also, separately, [[Geoffrey Nice]] on Middle East Eye. It was textbook state terrorism. [[User:Iskandar323|Iskandar323]] ([[User talk:Iskandar323|talk]]) 14:50, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

~~:::::I agree that there are enough RSes calling this ''terrorism'', so it should be noted, at least in the ''Reactions'' section, as per [[WP:DUE]].~~

:::::I also agree with the stance that WP probably shouldn't be describing things as ''terrorist'' in general. I'm actually surprised we have an actual list of terrorist attacks on here, since that seems to be using Wikivoice to label things that way. But that's another can of worms.

:::::So, as others point out, we should note this but we shouldn't say it in Wikivoice. Putting it in ''Reactions,'' and ascribing it to the relevant RS, seems the natural thing to do. It can always be added to the lede later on if major players (e.g., the UN) describe it in that way. [[User:Lewisguile|Lewisguile]] ([[User talk:Lewisguile|talk]]) 07:31, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

::::Not necessarily. Terrorism is a concept; that is of the deliberate targeting of civilians for political or other purposes. Whoever chooses to label a certain incident as terrorism, can do so either by matter of checking the applicability of this concept and/or how it violates international law. Either way WP reflects RS; if the Guardian reported it, so should we. [[User:Makeandtoss|Makeandtoss]] ([[User talk:Makeandtoss|talk]]) 10:05, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

:::::I added the UN experts' comments, BTW. All of the other notable people calling this ''terrorism'' were already quoted in the article (e.g., the Belgian politician). I'm not sure anything else needs to be added, but feel free to take another look and add anything I might've missed. At the very least, those RSes might be useful for showing the notability of those existing comments if anyone were to remove them later on. [[User:Lewisguile|Lewisguile]] ([[User talk:Lewisguile|talk]]) 11:37, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

~~:So, on checking, most of the articles upthread are either op-eds or repeat claims of ''terrorism'' which this article already covers. As such, I haven't added most them.~~

:I ''have'' added the UN experts' comments to the legality section. They carefully echo the wording of the UN description of terrorism without coming out and saying it directly. Because of that, I've simply quoted the experts directly, since it would be [[WP:OR]] to conclude what the UN means by that wording until RSes start interpreting it one way or another. (The ''Washington Post'' article does appear to interpret the wording as rebuking Israel for "a form of terrorism", but it's an op-ed, so isn't strong enough to support that reading yet, I don't think.) [[User:Lewisguile|Lewisguile]] ([[User talk:Lewisguile|talk]]) 08:16, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

~~== Number of deaths ==~~

~~An Iranian news agency has reported the total death toll has reached 41. [[User:Aminabzz|Aminabzz]] ([[User talk:Aminabzz|talk]]) 20:43, 20 September 2024 (UTC)~~

~~:Unless you can provide a reference, this is useless information. [[User:The Mountain of Eden|The Mountain of Eden]] ([[User talk:The Mountain of Eden|talk]]) 21:07, 20 September 2024 (UTC)~~

~~:We'd need to get an RS on that before anyone can make any changes. [[User:Lewisguile|Lewisguile]] ([[User talk:Lewisguile|talk]]) 07:20, 22 September 2024 (UTC)~~

~~== Opening sentence ==~~

I think the definition of Hezbollah should be trimmed from the opening sentence. Whoever is not familiar with Hezbollah can simply access its WP article. This would be on par with the lack of definition of Al-Qaeda on [[September 11 attacks]], Nazi Party on [[Kristallnacht]], etc. [[User:Makeandtoss|Makeandtoss]] ([[User talk:Makeandtoss|talk]]) 08:41, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

:Agreed. I see no issue with changing "used by members of the Lebanese political party and paramilitary group Hezbollah" → "used by [[Hezbollah]]". I've already seen the lede switch between "militant group", "political party and militia", "armed political group", etc. etc. and this change nicely does away with the bickering over wording. [[User:GhostOfNoMan|GhostOfNoMan]] 01:21, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

::Change made. Personally, I would say "intended for use by Hezbollah", since at least some of the devices may have been in the possession of civilians at the time. But for now, I've changed as suggested, and will leave as is unless the consensus shifts. [[User:Lewisguile|Lewisguile]] ([[User talk:Lewisguile|talk]]) 07:19, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

~~:::Thanks; and I agree "intended for use" might be more accurate. [[User:Makeandtoss|Makeandtoss]] ([[User talk:Makeandtoss|talk]]) 10:54, 22 September 2024 (UTC)~~

~~::::I've implemented that now, too. [[User:Lewisguile|Lewisguile]] ([[User talk:Lewisguile|talk]]) 11:33, 22 September 2024 (UTC)~~

~~:::Agreed – that's a more accurate description. Thanks for that. [[User:GhostOfNoMan|GhostOfNoMan]] 12:38, 22 September 2024 (UTC)~~

~~== Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 September 2024 ==~~

~~{{edit extended-protected|2024 Lebanon pager explosions|answered=yes}}~~

~~change title from "2024 Pager Explosions" to "2024 Pager Attacks"~~

~~reasons:~~

~~1. "attacks" more precises describes this event as "explosions" could be referring to a spontaneous or unplanned event.~~

~~2. for 9/11 we have (in English) "September 11th attacks" and for Oct7 we have: "2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel".~~

~~To call this "explosion" and not "attack" would go against Wikipedia's stated goal of neutrality. [[User:Mx.rezazadeh|Mx.rezazadeh]] ([[User talk:Mx.rezazadeh|talk]]) 15:13, 21 September 2024 (UTC)~~

:[[File:Red information icon with gradient background.svg|20px|link=|alt=]] '''Not done:''' ongoing RM discussion above, feel free to participate [[User:Cannolis|Cannolis]] ([[User talk:Cannolis|talk]]) 22:06, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

~~== Secret Hezbollah document about casulates ==~~

Has anyone seen this Hezbollah document? If this document is real, then the casulates must be changed.[https://x.com/VividProwess/status /1837028598177239383 Source] [[Special:Contributions/109.197.206.119|109.197.206.119]] ([[User talk:109.197.206.119|talk]]) 17:30, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

:Link is dead, but I've seen it. If you have a RS giving any weight to that document then we might want to consider publishing it but until then, it's all unverified and speculative. [[User:Kcmastrpc|Kcmastrpc]] ([[User talk:Kcmastrpc|talk]]) 17:36, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

::Here's a fixed link: https://x.com/VividProwess/status/1837028598177239383 (''/status/'' was ''/status+/'' in the above URL). I have no idea as to its authenticity. [[User:GhostOfNoMan|GhostOfNoMan]] 18:00, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

~~:::It claims a death toll of 879. Obvious fake. [[User:Mporter|Mporter]] ([[User talk:Mporter|talk]]) 19:23, 21 September 2024 (UTC)~~

::::Not to mention {{tq|1,735 injured in “reproductive organs.”}} – that screams bogus, to me. The only 'major' source I've been able to find reporting on this ostensible Hezbollah document is OpIndia; I can't even link the article here as OpIndia is a blacklisted domain. Per [[OpIndia]], it is an "Indian right-wing news website known for frequently publishing misinformation". No [[WP:RS]] seems to have taken any interest in this document one way or another. [[User:GhostOfNoMan|GhostOfNoMan]] 01:15, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

:::::Apparently, so does [https://newsable.asianetnews.com/world/lebanon-leaked-document-reveals-879-hezbollah-members-killed-in-pager-walkie-talkie-explosions-details-here-snt-sk3pff Asia Net News]. But I agree this is likely a hoax.'''[[User talk:Vice regent|VR]]''' (Please [[Template:Ping|ping]] on reply) 14:58, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

~~== Mistake ==~~

When I published my edit on the injuries, I put 780 instead of 708. The adding is correct, I just put the wrong numbers in the edit publish note. Sorry [[User:Bloxzge 025|Bloxzge 025]] ([[User talk:Bloxzge 025|talk]]) 01:54, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

:[[H:SUMMARYONLY]] - {{tpq|a slight change in a page's wikitext that has no effect on the rendered page but allows an editor to save a useful edit summary.}} Though at this point, I would leave it as is. --[[User:Super Goku V|Super Goku V]] ([[User talk:Super Goku V|talk]]) 07:47, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

~~:Also, please review the discussion above: [[#Casualty figures in infobox]] -[[User:Super Goku V|Super Goku V]] ([[User talk:Super Goku V|talk]]) 07:57, 22 September 2024 (UTC)~~

~~== Least important comment on misspelling ==~~

I was looking for how the Hungarian relations are featured and noticed a misspelling in the name of the company: the company form in the name of a company is spelled '''''Kft.''''', i.e. with capital K but small f and t, and always followed by a period; the spelling ''KFT'' with all-caps and without the period belongs to [[hu:KFT (együttes)|the band]]. You who find it important and can edit protected articles, please, correct it! Thank you in advance! [[User:CERBERUS - ii iv iii|CERBERUS - ii iv iii]] ([[User talk:CERBERUS - ii iv iii|talk]]) 06:29, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

~~:Fixed in the article body and in the references. Let me know if I missed anything. [[User:Lewisguile|Lewisguile]] ([[User talk:Lewisguile|talk]]) 07:11, 22 September 2024 (UTC)~~

~~== Israeli denial ==~~

~~The lead and elsewhere say this was an Israeli attack, which seems obvious, but...~~

On 22 September 2024, Israeli President [[Isaac Herzog]] denied any Israeli involvement in the explosions.<ref>{{cite news |title=Israel-Lebanon latest: Israel had ‘no connection’ with deadly exploding pager attack, president claims |url=https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-lebanon-hezbollah-pager-attack-haifa-latest-b2616933.html |work=The Independent |date=22 September 2024}}</ref> [[User:Seananony|Seananony]] ([[User talk:Seananony|talk]]) 15:19, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

: I think it's worth reporting that he said that, not for the truth of the matter, but to document what he said. [[User:Jehochman|Jehochman]] [[User talk:Jehochman|Talk]] 22:08, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

::I can deny the earth is round, but that doesn't mean my statement should be inserted at the opening paragraph of the [[earth]]. I have moved it down to reactions paragraph. [[User:Makeandtoss|Makeandtoss]] ([[User talk:Makeandtoss|talk]]) 15:28, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

:::I restored it, if we're going to include claims that Israel perpetrated this attack in the lead but bury their denial somewhere in the body that seems awfully [[WP:UNBALANCED]]. [[User:Kcmastrpc|Kcmastrpc]] ([[User talk:Kcmastrpc|talk]]) 15:43, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

::::There’s a difference between refuting a fact and denying it. So far no one has refuted it, so there is no balance to be made. [[User:Makeandtoss|Makeandtoss]] ([[User talk:Makeandtoss|talk]]) 19:49, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

:::::@[[User:Makeandtoss|Makeandtoss]] So, guilty until proven innocent? Why not quote a source that claims Israel is responsible rather than stating it as fact in Wikivoice? [[User:Seananony|Seananony]] ([[User talk:Seananony|talk]]) 00:01, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

~~::::::See revision. [[User:Seananony|Seananony]] ([[User talk:Seananony|talk]]) 00:17, 24 September 2024 (UTC)~~

~~{{Reflist-talk}}~~

~~== Extended confirmed edit request ==~~

~~Note the pager model allegedly used by hezbolah is not listed on Gold Apollo website. [[User:Nitsanbar6502|Nitsanbar6502]] ([[User talk:Nitsanbar6502|talk]]) 19:48, 22 September 2024 (UTC)~~

~~:https://www.gapollo.com.tw/ is geoblocked, maybe anyone from Taiwan can acsess? [[User:Nitsanbar6502|Nitsanbar6502]] ([[User talk:Nitsanbar6502|talk]]) 19:51, 22 September 2024 (UTC)~~

~~== Allegedly by Israel ==~~

Hey, it's says the attack was made by Israel, Israel never took responsibility of the attack, further more they denied been part of it, where is the source that confirms Israel was behind it? I mean yes Israel probably was behind it but u can't write something like that if it hasn't been proved yet.

~~https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-lebanon-hezbollah-pager-attack-haifa-latest-b2616933.html (Israel denied)~~

I brought some source thats says Israel denied doing it, but actually the writer need to prove that Israel did it, I don't need to prove that they didn't. innocent until proven otherwise. [[Special:Contributions/2A00:A041:E196:DB00:7514:C6AE:815E:5F91|2A00:A041:E196:DB00:7514:C6AE:815E:5F91]] ([[User talk:2A00:A041:E196:DB00:7514:C6AE:815E:5F91|talk]]) 22:58, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

~~:See the discussion above called [[#Israeli denial]]. --[[User:Super Goku V|Super Goku V]] ([[User talk:Super Goku V|talk]]) 01:07, 23 September 2024 (UTC)~~

== Israeli attack ==

Line 519 ⟶ 382:

:Thanks for addressing that! Sorry if my edit summary sounded a little accusative (with the "NPOV"); I'd assumed it was a return of the IP who was inserting "occupied Palestine" to describe essentially the entirety of northern Israel proper (unrelated to e.g. Shebaa Farms or Golan). I appreciate you letting me know. [[User:GhostOfNoMan|GhostOfNoMan]] 18:22, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

::No problem at all. I just thought that if you end up having to make another revert, you can point to my post as proof that it was really a "self-revert" by proxy. [[User:Lewisguile|Lewisguile]] ([[User talk:Lewisguile|talk]]) 18:32, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

== WP:V violation ==

The background section says "{{tq|A day after Hamas launched its 7 October 2023 attacks on Israel, Hezbollah joined the conflict in "solidarity with the Palestinians" by firing on Shebaa Farms, Safed, Nahariya, and other Israeli positions.}}"

This looks unverifiable. On October 8, Hezbollah didn't fire on Israel but on Israeli-occupied Golan Heights[https://www.aljazeera.com/program/newsfeed/2023/10/9/hezbollah-treads-carefully-as-it-shells-israeli-position][https://apnews.com/article/lebanon-israel-chebaa-farms-gaza-rocket-attack-cd7b26f890bf4cae32491721506ec0a1] and Israeli-occuped Shebaa Farms[https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-strikes-lebanon-after-hezbollah-hits-shebaa-farms-2023-10-08/]. In response, Israel fired back, killing several Hezbollah members, and only then did Hezbollah fire into Israel[https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/9/hezbollah-fires-on-israel-after-several-members-killed-in-shelling].

The [https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/article-820536#google_vignette source] currently in the article, says "{{tq|Further, as time went on, both Israel and Hezbollah started attacking areas in the other side’s territory further from the border and larger cities. Hezbollah attacked Safed and Nahariya, and the IDF attacked as far as Baalback, which is 100 kilometers into Lebanese territory.}}"

Given this is a [[WP:V]] violation, and the article is on the main page, I will remove this immediately.'''[[User talk:Vice regent|VR]]''' (Please [[Template:Ping|ping]] on reply) 02:04, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

:That's fine with me. I noticed similar wording had been changed on one of the related pages already, so I think there's consensus elsewhere on WP for what you say. [[User:Lewisguile|Lewisguile]] ([[User talk:Lewisguile|talk]]) 07:26, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

:@[[User:Galamore|Galamore]] Please see links above for the timeframe of events on 8 October and thereafter. I believe the confusion in your last edit was due to the ''Times of Israel'' article, which says "Since 8 October" and then gives an overview of the whole conflict since that date, rather than specifically detailing the initial attacks by Hezbollah on Israeli forces in the occupied territories.

:So the order of events seems to be Hamas attacks on Israel > Hezbollah attacks on Shebaa Farms and Golan Heights > response from Israel into Lebanon > response from Hezbollah into Israel, and then it carries on as described.

:My view is that describing the first two events (Hamas attack, attacks on occupied territories) and then saying "Since then..." adequately covers this entire sequence of events, since it doesn't require us to detail every exchange but does confirm that both Israel and Hezbollah attacked across the border, with civilians hurt and killed. If we specifically mention that Lebanon attacked civilian areas, then I think we also have to say that Israel did too, and we have to get the order right.

:I think the wording as I've tweaked it is now accurate without needing to go into that much detail, but I'm happy to discuss further if you have additional queries or suggestions. [[User:Lewisguile|Lewisguile]] ([[User talk:Lewisguile|talk]]) 09:14, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

:I didn't see your removal of the text, so I wonder if you've made it on a different page? Your comment is worth copying to the talk pages of the related articles anyway (e.g., September 2024 Lebanon strikes). Here's the amended text, as I've left it:

:"On 8 October 2023, a day after [[Hamas]] launched its [[7 October attacks|7 October 2023 attacks]] on Israel and [[Israeli bombing of the Gaza Strip|Israel began its bombing of Gaza]], [[Hezbollah]] joined the conflict in "solidarity with the Palestinians",[1][2] initially firing on Israeli military outposts in [[Shebaa Farms]] and the [[Golan Heights]] — both territories [[Israeli-occupied territories|under Israeli occupation]]."[1]

:[1]: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/10/9/hezbollah-fires-on-israel-after-several-members-killed-in-shelling

:[2]: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/10/violence-escalates-between-israel-and-lebanons-hezbollah-amid-gaza-assault

:Let me know what you think. [[User:Lewisguile|Lewisguile]] ([[User talk:Lewisguile|talk]]) 09:28, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

::I agree that such a wording would be not a [[WP:V]] violation. But I think better wording needs to be found, and we are talking about that at [[Talk:September_2024_Lebanon_strikes#More_background_issues]].'''[[User talk:Vice regent|VR]]''' (Please [[Template:Ping|ping]] on reply) 11:56, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

:::This is way too detailed. This should be a summary of how the war developed between Israel and Hezbollah. Hamas attacked, a day later Hezbollah joined with attacks against Israel, and it developed to a long cross-border conflict until the recent escalation. That's it [[User:Galamore|Galamore]] ([[User talk:Galamore|talk]]) 12:54, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

::::"{{tq| a day later Hezbollah joined with attacks against Israel}}" That's misleading, as we're trying to tell you. The October 8 firing was not "against Israel" but against Israeli military positions inside occupied Syria/Lebanon. Secondly, before Hezbollah attacked, Israel had killed hundreds in Gaza (see [[Talk:September_2024_Lebanon_strikes#%22unprovoked%22|this discussion]]) through its bombing.'''[[User talk:Vice regent|VR]]''' (Please [[Template:Ping|ping]] on reply) 15:53, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

:::::This is getting into slippery slope territory because the conflict goes so far back that editors who want to POV push will argue that one side or the other started it.

:::::What's the point of the background section? Why is it even necessary to have, outside of a link to [[Israel-Hezbollah conflict]]? [[User:Kcmastrpc|Kcmastrpc]] ([[User talk:Kcmastrpc|talk]]) 16:20, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

== Two edit requests ==

An IP has made a polite edit request on my user talk page that I think merits consideration:

*1. We should add (per [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/sep/18/hezbollah-pagers-what-do-we-know-about-how-the-attack-happened The Guardian]) that it was the circuit board of the pagers, that was infected with the explosive PETN, not the battery.

*2. We should add that Hezbollah's military wing used since 2008 for its communications its fiber optic network (per [https://thisisbeirut.com.lb/lebanon/293445 This is Beirut]).

'''[[User talk:Vice regent|VR]]''' (Please [[Template:Ping|ping]] on reply) 01:12, 29 September 2024 (UTC)