Talk:2024 Lebanon pager explosions: Difference between revisions - Wikipedia

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{{old move|date=17 September 2024|destination=2024 Lebanon–Syria pager explosions|result=not moved|link=Special:Permalink/1246569339#Requested move 17 September 2024}}

~~==Death of a child==~~

*Aside from the fact that civilians were injured, we also know that a girl was killed[https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/dozens-hezbollah-members-wounded-lebanon-when-pagers-exploded-sources-witnesses-2024-09-17/]. But this keeps getting removed. Why? '''[[User talk:Vice regent|VR]]''' (Please [[Template:Ping|ping]] on reply) 17:21, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

**ABC News says[https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/dozens-wounded-after-pagers-detonate-lebanon-officials-point-113754464#:~:text=BEIRUT%20%2D%2D%20Pagers%20used%20by,wounding%20several%20thousand%2C%20officials%20said.] "killing at least nine people – including an 8-year-old girl -- and wounding several thousand, officials said." So it doesn't seem like only a Hezbollah claim.

**We also have: "{{tq|The 10-year-old daughter of a Hezbollah member was killed in Lebanon's east when his pager exploded on Tuesday, her family and a source close to the group said. "A 10-year-old girl was martyred in the Bekaa Valley after her father's pager exploded while he was next to her," her relatives told AFP."}}" So we seem to have sufficient confirmation.'''[[User talk:Vice regent|VR]]''' (Please [[Template:Ping|ping]] on reply) 20:27, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

** AP confirmed the death of an 8-year-old girl: [https://apnews.com/live/lebanon-syria-pagers-hezbollah-updates#00000192-0133-d78d-a79f-3dff2bfb0000 At least 9 people killed in pager explosions]

* I see claims above of 8-year old, 9-year old, and 10-year old, with no reliable source. There's not enough substance here to put it in the article.

~~::How is AP now a reliable source? '''[[User talk:Vice regent|VR]]''' (Please [[Template:Ping|ping]] on reply) 04:37, 18 September 2024 (UTC)~~

~~::If sources agree that a child died and disagree on the age, it is still enough to include. --[[User:Super Goku V|Super Goku V]] ([[User talk:Super Goku V|talk]]) 20:29, 18 September 2024 (UTC)~~

~~:::Yes, it can be mentioned even if we can't confirm her age. Just say, "a girl aged 8–10". [[User:Lewisguile|Lewisguile]] ([[User talk:Lewisguile|talk]]) 11:54, 19 September 2024 (UTC)~~

* At what point (under Casualties) do we just say "including children"? I see reports of an 8-, 9-, 10-, and 11-year-old killed. I don't think we need to list each—and it isn't always abundantly clear whether these are different children; the "daughter of a Hezbollah member", for example, has been cited as various ages, so a source stating an 8-year-old girl died could easily be referring to the same child but with an erroneous age. And to be clear: this belongs in the Casualties section, not the infobox. [[User:GhostOfNoMan|GhostOfNoMan]] 21:15, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

*:I agree we don't need to mention them individually, we should just say "including 3 children" in the infobox. The "daughter of Hezbollah member" might be useful to the reader as it explains how the child was killed/why they happened to be close to an exploding device.'''[[User talk:Vice regent|VR]]''' (Please [[Template:Ping|ping]] on reply) 07:46, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

*:I'm happy with "including children", though I think "including at least three children" with the option to update as more info comes in is better. The first is more future-proof, but the second is more accurate. I '''strongly object''' to "child of a Hezbollah member", as it's [[WP:BIAS]]/[[WP:TE]], victim blaming and unnecessary (the article already makes it abundantly clear who the intended targets were). [[User:Lewisguile|Lewisguile]] ([[User talk:Lewisguile|talk]]) 08:23, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

~~{{ping|Vice regent|}},{{ping|Super Goku V}},{{ping|Lewisguile}},{{ping|GhostOfNoMan}}~~

Editors might like to note that ''[[three]]'' children were killed on 18 September 2024. As reported in Lebanon in the French-language daily newspaper [[L'Orient-Le Jour]]. Here a link for easy accessibility and convenience to its English-language edition "L'Orient Today":

*"''[https://today.lorientlejour.com/article/1427494/after-pager-explosions-hezbollah-announces-death-of-10-fighters-vows-to-continue-operations-day-348-of-the-gaza-war.html At least 14 dead and over 450 injured in new explosions of communication devices across Lebanon: Day 348 of the Gaza war'' - 10:28 Beirut Time]", [[L'Orient-Le Jour|L'Orient Today]], 18 September 2024 - [L'Orient's editorial stance: "a fierce line against Hezbollah"/ per our enWP article]

~~Please, note the time: "10:28 Beirut Time", this was before the "Second wave".--[[Special:Contributions/91.54.12.244|91.54.12.244]] ([[User talk:91.54.12.244|talk]]) 07:02, 21 September 2024 (UTC)~~

~~==Solar panels, etc==~~

I just added this to lead paragraphs, but it is not yet confirmed that any reports of solar panel or other device explosions are actually self-detonating, or just catching fire from walkie talkie explosions.[https://www.theweek.in/news/world/2024/09/18/lebanon-panic-as-two-solar-panel-systems-explode-amidst-pager-walkie-talkie-blasts-in-beirut-targeting-hezbollah.html] The fog of some people thinking this is the case is very understandable, but I'm not seeing videos of such devices exploding on their own yet in any reporting.--'''[[User:Milowent|Milowent]]''' • [[Special:Contributions/Milowent|has]][[User talk:Milowent|spoken]] 17:55, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

:I've removed the mention from the lead, pending better sourcing: a single breaking news report claiming solar panels exploded isn't sufficient to say that they were targeted. [[User:Elli|Elli]] ([[User_talk:Elli|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Elli|contribs]]) 19:56, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

~~:Solar panels explosion was stated by the Lebanese government official news agency:~~

:https://www.nna-leb.gov.lb/ar/justice-law/722390/اصابة-فتاة-في-المروانية-جراء-انفجار-نظام-الطاقة-ال [[User:Stephan rostie|Stephan rostie]] ([[User talk:Stephan rostie|talk]]) 20:13, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

::[https://www.democracynow.org/2024/9/19/lebanon Lebanon: 37 Dead, 3,400+ Injured in Wave of Explosions in Electronic Devices Booby-Trapped by Israel], [[Democracy Now!]], 19 September 2024 → "Lara Bitar (editor-in-chief of The Public Source, a Beirut-based independent media organization): So, as you can imagine, the events of the past two days have caused a lot of panic, a lot of fear and, to a large extent, paranoia, which was aided by a disinformation campaign, to a large extent. Over the past couple of days, or at least yesterday, for the most part, people were receiving messages over different WhatsApp groups, on social media platforms, that any and every electronic device can be detonated by the Israelis. So people were scared of using their cellphones. People were hearing that even kitchen appliances were exploding, solar panels, laptops and so on. Thankfully, for the most part, this turned out to be a disinformation campaign, and it did not really — was not really materializing on the ground as was being reported across different channels. That may be the only solace from the events of the past couple of days, where we saw civilian areas and civilians being targeted."

::Here the is an other clarification: [https://today.lorientlejour.com/article/1427662/did-solar-power-energy-systems-explode-during-wednesdays-attack.html?_gl=1*d9suwa*_gcl_au*MTIyNzkyODg3NC4xNzIzMjU3MDY4 Did solar power energy systems explode during Wednesday's attack? According to the state-run National News Agency, solar energy systems exploded in homes in several areas of Beirut and the south on Wednesday, but the reports remain unconfirmed.], [[L'Orient Today]], 19 September 2024 21:30. --[[Special:Contributions/93.211.221.30|93.211.221.30]] ([[User talk:93.211.221.30|talk]]) 12:39, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

:::Deutsche Welle: [https://www.dw.com/en/fact-check-no-iphones-solar-panels-laptops-exploded-in-lebanon/a-70281061 Fact Check: No iPhones or solar panels exploded in Lebanon] The article also debunks one of the photos used in the ref titled "Chaos in Lebanon as Home Solar Systems, Appliances Explode" in the ''Second Wave'' section.

:::The 961: [https://www.the961.com/fact-check-pager-attack-in-lebanon/ Fact Checking What’s True & Untrue From The Pager Attack] "No solar panels, phones, laptops, or any other electronic devices have exploded."

:::It's understandable in the immediate aftermath of an attack like this (particularly the second): mass panic & hysteria, the fog of war, unedited rolling news coverage, etc. But it's also telling that none of the major news outlets are talking about solar panels, fingerprint readers, smartphones et al. two days down the line. [[User:Moscow Mule|Moscow Mule]] ([[User talk:Moscow Mule|talk]]) 03:50, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

::::I think we're spreading misinformation here in the infobox. I just see MSM talking about pagers and walkie talkies. Not car batteries, not solar panels, etc. I'm going to remove it from the infobox and article until we get real confirmation from high-quality RS. [[User:Levivich|Levivich]] ([[User talk:Levivich|talk]]) 06:37, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

~~== Timing ==~~

{{ping|Martinevans123}} Why do you think the timing is so important as to be in the opening sentence? [[9/11]] page does not mention the timing in the first sentence or first paragraph, and [[MOS:OPEN]] highlights that the opening should be as general as possible without giving too much details. [[User:Makeandtoss|Makeandtoss]] ([[User talk:Makeandtoss|talk]]) 11:47, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

:I think it could find many examples of disasters' attacks where the time of day is included in the first sentence, but then [[WP:OSE]]. I'd suggest that the simultaneity of such a widespread series of explosions confers added significance to a single time. But perhaps it could be moved down slightly. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 11:53, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

::{{ping|Martinevans123}} I can't think of any; and [[MOS:OPEN]] states: "The first paragraph should define or identify the topic with a neutral point of view, but '''without being too specific'''". Mentioning the time of day in the hours and minutes is too specific and distracts the reader. Also [[MOS:FIRST]]: "Do not overload the first sentence by describing everything notable about the subject." I already had moved it down to the second lede paragraph. [[User:Makeandtoss|Makeandtoss]] ([[User talk:Makeandtoss|talk]]) 11:58, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

:::Oh yes, so you did. Thanks for telling me. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 12:16, 19 September 2024 (UTC) p.s. the [[September 11 attacks]] didn't happen all at once, so I'm not surprised a single time is not given there.

::::{{ping|Martinevans123}} We already mention "simultaneous" so no need to be overspecific, especially in the opening sentence. [[User:Makeandtoss|Makeandtoss]] ([[User talk:Makeandtoss|talk]]) 12:38, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

:::::Yes, we certainly should mention "simultaneous". I don't see the time of day as being "overspecific". I see it as a fundamental fact. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 12:44, 19 September 2024 (UTC) p.s. you need not add a ping to me every time you reply here. I have this page watchlisted, I can see from the indent you are replying, no one else is in this discussion, and I'm sure any responses aren't time critical. Thanks.

::::::I disagree on the need to mention the time in hours and minutes because it overloads the opening sentence without providing any value. Will wait for the input of other editors. [[User:Makeandtoss|Makeandtoss]] ([[User talk:Makeandtoss|talk]]) 12:57, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

:::::::It provides no value? It's just a basic fact. It overloads? It's four words, with 20 characters. But I'm also happy to hear the views of other editors. Perhaps the total time that it took all the devices to explode should also be mentioned somewhere, although I suspect this may not have been accurately reported. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 15:00, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

::::::::{{ping|Vice regent}}, {{ping|Super Goku V}}, {{ping|Huldra}}, {{ping|Lewisguile}},{{ping|GhostOfNoMan}}, {{ping|Nishidani}}, {{ping|Moscow Mule}}, {{ping|nableezy}}, {{ping|Levivich}} The First Wave went off around 15:30 EEST, the time when parents pick up their children from kindergarten and school, when everyone is out and about, when everyone is running errands. We saw people in street-markets and supermarkets and stores being exploded. The Second Wave started around 17:00 EEST, the time for funerals. If someone is acquainted with Lebanese society and wants to have the maximum impact on the civilian population, he would pick those times. So, yes! I agree with Martin that it is important to have the time in the lead. And we should add the time of the Second Wave.

::::::::Here a link for easy accessibility and convenience to the French-language daily newspaper [[L'Orient-Le Jour]] in Lebanon [L'Orient's editorial stance: "a fierce line against Hezbollah"/ per our enWP article] to its English-language edition "L'Orient Today":

::::::::*"''[https://today.lorientlejour.com/article/1427494/after-pager-explosions-hezbollah-announces-death-of-10-fighters-vows-to-continue-operations-day-348-of-the-gaza-war.html At least 14 dead and over 450 injured in new explosions of communication devices across Lebanon: Day 348 of the Gaza war'']", [[L'Orient-Le Jour|L'Orient Today]], 18 September 2024 — Quote: "17:08 Beirut Time ⚡ At least one explosion was heard in the southern suburbs of Beirut, Reuters reported, noting that ambulance sirens were also heard."

::::::::Those two points in time have been widely discussed and reflected upon in the news over the last few days. Please, note the Second Wave detonations were stronger. --[[Special:Contributions/91.54.12.244|91.54.12.244]] ([[User talk:91.54.12.244|talk]]) 09:35, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

:::::::::I have absolutely no objection to including the time. It's relatively brief. If anyone has a strong objection, we could move it out of the lede. The lede is already fairly detailed, though, so I don't think it's out of place.

:::::::::There is, of course, a discussion to be had about whether the lede is too long/detailed in general. If that were the case, then the existing lede could be moved down into an ''Overview'' section, and we could replace it with a shorter summary.

:::::::::But in an article such as this, I suspect there will always be too much info that people want to put into the lede, so it will tend to be longer than usual anyway. I think that's okay in these circumstances—especially if it prevents protracted debates. [[User:Lewisguile|Lewisguile]] ([[User talk:Lewisguile|talk]]) 09:50, 21 September 2024 (UTC)

== Brace yourselves ==

Line 89 ⟶ 31:

:The article [[Israel%E2%80%93Hezbollah_conflict_(2023%E2%80%93present)]] already exists, since the armed conflict started on 8 October 2023. [[User:Dotyoyo|Dotyoyo]] ([[User talk:Dotyoyo|talk]]) 00:14, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

~~== Casualty figures in infobox ==~~

The numbers of those killed and injured ought to appear in the main body text, if they are to be used in the infobox? Currently the total number of those injured "3,450+" doesn't seem to be supported by the two sources there. The report on ITN Main page is showing "more than 3,200". [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 16:27, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

:I previously reverted it to the figure found in both references (2,750 at the time), but it was added back with an edit summary stating that the figure was based on adding casualties together for both waves – even though neither reference mentioned any figure besides 2,750. I didn't revert it a second time, even though I couldn't find any reliable source that cited a total figure. But if that 3,200 is now being reported, then it should be updated, so we can avoid the current [[WP:SYNTH]]. [[User:GhostOfNoMan|GhostOfNoMan]] 16:39, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

~~::Shouldn't [[WP:2+2=4]] apply? [[User:FunLater|FunLater]] ([[User talk:FunLater|talk]]) 17:01, 19 September 2024 (UTC)~~

:::Probably! I didn't revert it a second time for that very reason, once I saw the edit summary. But where we have a single source providing a reliable total, I feel that's preferable to our own calculations – especially considering the wildly different figures being reported (f.i. one edit summed 2,750 + 400, but a later edit used 3,000 + 400 based on a separate source). [[User:GhostOfNoMan|GhostOfNoMan]] 17:34, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

:::I believe {{u|Pachu Kannan}} arrived at the current 3,450+ number as 2,750 + 708. The math itself is certainly within what [[WP:CALC]] allows, but the available sources for 708 don't seem very reliable (Al Jazeera's [[WP:NEWSBLOG]] or [[Morocco World News]]).

:::More importantly, it doesn't seem entirely clear that 2,750 + 708 is a proper aggregation with no double counting. Al Jazeera says {{tq|708 were injured while on Tuesday, 12 people were killed and 2,323 injured}}, so we could reasonable combine them to get 3,031, aside from the [[WP:NEWSBLOG]] issue. It's less clear how 2,750 relates to the other numbers - it seems like an early estimate by the health minister, while the other numbers seem like specific cases recorded by hospitals. [[WP:CALC]] is normally reserved for cases where it's more obvious what the proper calculation is. — [[User:XDanielx|xDanielx]] [[User talk:XDanielx|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/XDanielx|C]]\[[Wikipedia:Editor review/xDanielx|R]] 18:01, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

::::{{ping|xDanielx}}, so do we need a source in the infobox for the "2,750+"? The ITN item on Main page currently says "more than 3,400 others injured". Thanks. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 15:22, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

:::::Added the source. {{yo|Stephen}} it looks like you did the ITN [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Template:In_the_news&diff=prev&oldid=1246660455 update], could you change it to 2,750 for now? (This is probably a short-term change, pending a reliable source with a total figure.) — [[User:XDanielx|xDanielx]] [[User talk:XDanielx|T]]/[[Special:Contributions/XDanielx|C]]\[[Wikipedia:Editor review/xDanielx|R]] 15:47, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

~~::::::Many thanks. Have now requested an update at Main page errors. [[User:Martinevans123|Martinevans123]] ([[User talk:Martinevans123|talk]]) 09:00, 21 September 2024 (UTC)~~

== Requested move 19 September 2024 ==

Line 473 ⟶ 402:

:Unless you can provide a reference, this is useless information. [[User:The Mountain of Eden|The Mountain of Eden]] ([[User talk:The Mountain of Eden|talk]]) 21:07, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

:We'd need to get an RS on that before anyone can make any changes. [[User:Lewisguile|Lewisguile]] ([[User talk:Lewisguile|talk]]) 07:20, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

~~== Who said? ==~~

"Sky News reported '''a Lebanese security''' had said...." (Final paragraph of "Use of pagers" section.) What is a "Lebanese security", and how does it say things? [[Special:Contributions/67.231.67.253|67.231.67.253]] ([[User talk:67.231.67.253|talk]]) 21:33, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

:Thank you for the observation. [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2024_Lebanon_pager_explosions&diff=prev&oldid=1246754355 I have fixed it]. [[User:The Mountain of Eden|The Mountain of Eden]] ([[User talk:The Mountain of Eden|talk]]) 21:43, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

== Opening sentence ==