Talk:Andy Ngo: Difference between revisions - Wikipedia

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:(as a side note) NY Times, BBC, CNN, etc. are ''not'' non-special interest outlets, and definitely not less than Al Jazeera. [[User:BeŻet|BeŻet]] ([[User talk:BeŻet|talk]]) 18:24, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

:I agree that "widely" is Wikipedia-editor opinion and should be removed (not replaced), but will ping editors who were involved earlier by giving a possibly-incomplete history. [[User:Noteduck|Noteduck]] on February 22 [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Andy_Ngo&diff=1008201578&oldid=1007561762 added "widely" etc.]. [[User:CaptainPrimo|CaptainPrimo]] on February 23 [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Andy_Ngo&diff=1008556841&oldid=1008468496 added "by leftists"]. [[User:Black_Kite|Black Kite]] on February 23 [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Andy_Ngo&diff=1008558084&oldid=1008556841 removed "by leftists"]. [[User:Thomas_Meng|Thomas Meng]] on March 16 [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Andy_Ngo&diff=1012377329&oldid=1012374426 changed to "Multiple sources have accused"].[[User:NorthBySouthBaranof|NorthBySouthBaranof]] on March 16 [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Andy_Ngo&diff=1012378706&oldid=1012377329 reverted Thomas Meng]. TomReagan90 on June 29 [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Andy_Ngo&diff=1031042514&oldid=1030681438 changed to "by some"]. BeŻet on June 29 [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Andy_Ngo&diff=1031114864&oldid=1031042514 reverted TomReagan90]. [[User:Peter Gulutzan|Peter Gulutzan]] ([[User talk:Peter Gulutzan|talk]]) 19:11, 30 June 2021 (UTC)

: There are many variations on this theme but I think this is entirely commensurate with the view of most RS's I've seen, which don't treat Ngo as a credible journalist or someone who can be trusted to give an honest account of events. I honestly don't have time to run through the many examples of good sources reporting on Ngo as dishonest/misleading/not credible, but for a start: see [[Rolling Stone]],<ref>{{cite news|last1=Dickson|first1=E. J.|date=3 September 2019|title=How a Right-Wing Troll Managed to Manipulate the Mainstream Media|work=Rolling Stone|url=https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/andy-ngo-right-wing-troll-antifa-877914 |quote=While the Portland Mercury story could cost him whatever was left of his mainstream reputation, it certainly won’t cost him his career. In the ever-expanding right-wing media ecosystem, there is plenty of room for trolls with a knack for video-editing software and gaming Twitter to find an audience, particularly if they are telling that audience what they know they want to hear. It should, however, serve as a chastening teachable moment to those who took him seriously, if only for a short time.}}</ref> [[CNN]],<ref>{{cite web |last1=Darcy |first1=Oliver |title=Right-wing media says Antifa militants have seized part of Seattle. Local authorities say otherwise |url=https://edition.cnn.com/2020/06/11/media/seattle-antifa-protest-trump/index.html |website=CNN |access-date=1 July 2021 |date=11 June 2020 |quote=As evidence, The Gateway Pundit cited a tweet from a less-than-reliable right-wing media personality Andy Ngo, in which he claimed Antifa militants "have taken over & created an 'autonomous zone' in city w/their own rules." Ngo, who did not respond to a request for comment, often does not cite strong supporting evidence to back up the claims he makes about Antifa on Twitter.}}</ref> Harvard academic [[Joan Donovan]] for [[MIT Technology Review]]<ref name=":17">{{cite web|url=https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/09/03/1007931/riot-porn-right-wing-vigilante-propaganda-social-media/|author=Joan Donovan|website=MIT Technology Review|date=3 September 2020|title=How an overload of riot porn is driving conflict in the streets|quote=These narratives have been intensified and supplemented by the work of right-wing adversarial media-makers like Elijah Schaffer and Andy Ngo, who collect videos of conflict at public protests and recirculate them to their online audiences. Both have even gone “undercover” by posing as protesters to capture footage for their channels, seeking to name and shame those marching. Their videos are edited, decontextualized, and shared among audiences hungry for a new fix of “riot porn,” which instantly goes viral across the right-wing media ecosystem with the aid of influential pundits and politicians, including President Donald Trump.}}</ref>, [[Salon (magazine)]]<ref name="salon2019">{{cite web |last1=Derysh |first1=Igor |title=Right-wing "journalist" Andy Ngo outed: Video shows him hanging out with far-right hate group |url=https://www.salon.com/2019/08/28/right-wing-journalist-andy-ngo-outed-video-shows-him-hanging-out-with-far-right-hate-group/ |website=Salon |access-date=21 January 2021 |archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210119162141/https://www.salon.com/2019/08/28/right-wing-journalist-andy-ngo-outed-video-shows-him-hanging-out-with-far-right-hate-group/ | quote=Ngo, who has used selectively edited videos to paint antifa as a violent, criminal group was hit with punches and milkshakes during a clash between antifa activists and members of the Proud Boys, an organization labeled a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center. |archive-date=19 January 2021 |date=28 August 2019}}</ref> [[The Oregonian]],<ref name="Butler">{{cite news|first1=Grant |last1=Butler |access-date=January 5, 2020|title=Oregon's top 15 newsmakers of 2019|url=https://www.oregonlive.com/news/2019/12/oregons-top-15-newsmakers-of-2019.html|date=December 29, 2019|newspaper=[[The Oregonian]] |quote=But he circulated heavily edited videos of several altercations to his then-270,000 Twitter followers, racking up millions of views online while spreading inaccurate claims and limited context about what transpired.}}</ref> [[Media Matters for America]],<ref>{{cite web |last1=Hagle |first1=Courtney |title=Media presented far-right grifter Andy Ngo as a credible journalist. He was just caught covering for far-right extremists as they plan violent attacks. |url=https://www.mediamatters.org/fox-news/media-presented-far-right-grifter-andy-ngo-credible-journalist-reporting-left-wing |website=Media Matters for America |access-date=18 February 2021 |date=28 August 2019 |quote=Far-right writer Andy Ngo has been presented as a credible authority on left-wing violence following an attack on him at a rally in late June. Now it’s been revealed that Ngo has secretly been working alongside a violent far-right group to cherry-pick and misrepresent left-wing activism in an attempt to downplay right-wing violence.}}</ref> [[BuzzFeed News]],<ref><ref name="Buzzfeed" |quote=I was in talks to shadow him at the upcoming demonstration, which I thought might be a good way to illustrate how Ngo constructs an incendiary political narrative out of a narrow selection of facts. </ref> [[The Intercept]],<ref>{{cite web |last1=Mackey |first1=Robert |title=Defeated Trump Campaign Tells Supporters “The Left HATES YOU” in Fundraising Emails |url=https://theintercept.com/2020/11/18/defeated-trump-campaign-tells-supporters-left-hates-fundraising-emails/ |website=The Intercept |access-date=1 July 2021 |date=19 November 2020 |quote=The edited video was posted by Andy Ngo, a right-wing activist who uses selectively edited video and false captions to create misleading propaganda about protesters.}}</ref> [[The Guardian]],<ref>{{cite web |last1=Wilson |first1=Jason |title=How to troll the left: understanding the rightwing outrage machine |url=https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/mar/18/how-the-right-trolls-the-left-college-campus-outrage |website=The Guardian |access-date=1 July 2021 |date=18 March 2018 |quote=In the lead-up to Damore’s appearance, Ngo penned an article for the Wall Street Journal alleging that the event had been threatened, writing that that “we expected controversy. But we also got danger.” The evidence of danger, as reported in Willamette Week, was “two violent threats on Facebook, three diversity events held on campus as counter-programming, and a scornful blog post”. This was more than enough for Fox News, who ran an item under the headline “Antifa targets ‘Google memo’ author James Damore’s talk at Portland State”. Despite the headline, Portland’s Rose City Antifa told the Guardian ahead of time that no antifascist counterprotest was ever planned, and none materialized. There was only a small audience walkout. Nevertheless, along with spreading the video, Ngo wrung from the evening an article for Quillette, a website obsessed with the alleged war on free speech on campus.}}</ref>[https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/mar/18/how-the-right-trolls-the-left-college-campus-outrage] [[NME]],[https://www.nme.com/en_au/news/music/mumford-sons-winston-marshall-quits-band-after-praising-right-wing-agitator-andy-ngo-2977896] [[Los Angeles Times]][https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/books/story/2021-02-08/andy-ngo-new-book-still-pretends-antifa-real-enemy], [[New York (magazine)]][https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2018/08/institutions-challenged-by-vloggers-and-busybody-journalism.html], renowned public intellectual and Yale Professor [[Jason Stanley]] in an interview for the [[SPLC]],<ref name=":6">{{Cite web|last=Hayden|first=Michael Edison|date=August 27, 2020|title=The Fascist Underpinnings of Pro-Trump Media: An Interview With Author Jason Stanley|url=https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2020/08/27/fascist-underpinnings-pro-trump-media-interview-author-jason-stanley|url-status=live|archive-url=|archive-date=|access-date=2021-01-12|website=Southern Poverty Law Center|language=en |quote=Stanley: Oh, he’s terrifying. Watching him go through essentially a tunnel, you know, into the far right, which is what he’s been doing. There was the milkshake incident and then it just went, you know, paranoid, completely paranoid. He had convinced various editors that there was this, you know, this false equivalence [between left and right political violence in the U.S.], when there’s no such equivalence at all. I mean, there’s been literally hundreds of murders of people by white supremacists on U.S. soil since 1990 and none by antifa. Hatewatch: Ngo’s also been caught misrepresenting facts and then what he says goes substantially viral after that. Stanley: Yeah.}}</ref>, [[Columbia Journalism Review]],<ref name=":26">{{cite web |last1=Tovrov |first1=Daniel |title=Dropshipping journalism |url=https://www.cjr.org/special_report/newsweek.php |website=Columbia Journalism Review |access-date=18 February 2021 |date=23 October 2019 |quote=The space freelancers once occupied has been partially taken up by new, inflammatory opinion writers like Ben Shapiro, Nigel Farage, and Newt Gingrich, who wrote the magazine’s May 10 cover story about China. Some of these writers, I’m told, do get paid. Other recent Newsweek writers have included Charlie Kirk, discredited provocateur Andy Ngo, and former Blink-182 frontman Tom DeLonge, who wrote a thinly veiled advertisement for his new TV show about UFOs.}}</ref> plus[https://www.cjr.org/the_media_today/nikole_hannah_jones_unc_tenure.php][https://www.cjr.org/analysis/quillette-antifa-journalist-smear-campaign.php], a report by Harvard's [[Nieman Foundation for Journalism]] by four subject-matter experts with impeccable credentials,<ref>{{cite web |last1=Penney |first1=Jon |last2=Donovan |first2=Joan |last3=Leaver |first3=Nicole |last4=Friedberg |first4=Brian |title=Trudeau’s Blackface: The Chilling Effects of Disinformation on Political Engagement |url=https://niemanreports.org/articles/trudeaus-blackface-the-chilling-effects-of-disinformation-on-political-engagement/ |website=Nieman Reports |access-date=1 July 2021 |date=3 October 2019 |quote=Using social media analytics, we see that the photos have been widely shared among known U.S. right-wing operators who have also amplified disinformation in the past, including Andy Ngo and Jack Posobiec.}}</ref> [[Above the Law]].<ref name=":12">{{cite web|url=https://abovethelaw.com/2019/09/andy-ngo-is-journalisms-problem/|title=Andy Ngo Is Journalism's Problem|date=September 3, 2019|first=Alaric|last=Dearment|website=Above the Law}}</ref> In fact, I haven't found many RS's that ''do'' treat Ngo as a credible journalist. In the absence of more contrary opinions from RS's, I'd recommend a '''direct quote in the header''' that roughly aggregates what the majority of good sources have said about Ngo - one possibility is something like: {{tq2|Ngo has been widely accused of sharing misleading or selective material,[SOURCES] described as a provocateur,[SOURCES] and accused of having links with militant right-wing groups in Portland[SOURCES]. Accordingly, [[Columbia Journalism Review]] has described Ngo as a "discredited provocateur".<ref name=":26">{{cite web |last1=Tovrov |first1=Daniel |title=Dropshipping journalism |url=https://www.cjr.org/special_report/newsweek.php |website=Columbia Journalism Review |access-date=18 February 2021 |date=23 October 2019 |quote=The space freelancers once occupied has been partially taken up by new, inflammatory opinion writers like Ben Shapiro, Nigel Farage, and Newt Gingrich, who wrote the magazine’s May 10 cover story about China. Some of these writers, I’m told, do get paid. Other recent Newsweek writers have included Charlie Kirk, discredited provocateur Andy Ngo, and former Blink-182 frontman Tom DeLonge, who wrote a thinly veiled advertisement for his new TV show about UFOs.}}</ref>}}

:: Widely is your subjective opinion. Additionally the CJR opinion is not sure for specific mention in the lead. Removing widely and leaving the rest as is is a sufficient fix. [[User:Springee|Springee]] ([[User talk:Springee|talk]]) 05:37, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

:::in line with [[WP:BOLD]] I went ahead and removed '''"widely"''', which drew objections, to the more value-neutral term '''"frequently"'''. Given the volume and quality of source material that has been adduced to support this point, I think this is unproblematic. [[User:Noteduck|Noteduck]] ([[User talk:Noteduck|talk]]) 05:59, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

:::: Frequently is weasely and again subjective. It's not a good fix. [[User:Springee|Springee]] ([[User talk:Springee|talk]])

:::: [[User:Springee|Springee]], I'm curious as to what evidentiary standard you would require and what terminology you feel would be appropriate. "Frequently described" gets hundreds of hits on Wiki pages,[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?search=%22frequently+described%22&title=Special%3ASearch&go=Go&ns0=1] as does "widely described".[https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?search=%22widely+described%22&title=Special:Search&profile=advanced&fulltext=1&ns0=1] Of course, there are many, many more variations of this theme [[User:Noteduck|Noteduck]] ([[User talk:Noteduck|talk]]) 06:16, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

== Kirkus Reviews ==