Talk:Chamar - Wikipedia

In the military paragraph there is mentioned that Sikh Light Infantry belongs to chamar caste and there is also nentioned sikh chamars ramdasia , which is totally wrong information as Sikh Light Infantry Belongs to Ramdasiasikhs which belongs to Julahacaste snd Mazhbi Sikhs and it does not belongs to chamar caste .this thing is hurting feelings of many people So please remove the column of Sikh Light Infantry.There is a big confusion between Ramdasia(julaha) and Ravidasia(chamar).Ramdasias are not chamar .

Agreed and removed. The source refers to the Chamar Regiment and the Sikh Light Infantry but someone appears to have conjoined the two, presumably due to mis-reading what is said. - Sitush (talk) 11:33, 1 March 2018 (UTC)Reply

Sitush, NitinMlk this is not correct and the above comment that you responded was poster that was banned for caste brigading at the Ramdasia wiki page. The Ramdasia wiki itself mentions that the Chamar caste is also known as Ramdasias.

The references that can be used to link Chamar, Ramdasia and Sikh Light Infantry are here.

"The Sikh Light Infantry, composed of untouchable Sikhs, was formerly called the Mazbhi and Ramadasias Sikhs", The Untouchable Soldier: Caste, Politics, and the Indian Army", Stephen P. Cohen, The Journal of Asian Studies Vol. 28, No. 3 (May, 1969), pp. 453-468

M & R: A Regimental History of the Sikh Light Infantry, 1941-1947 Paperback: 121 pages, Publisher: J D Hookway (April 1999), Language: English ISBN-10: 0953465608, ISBN-13: 978-0953465606

Please review the above books. If no feedback, I will add to the main article page in a few weeks. 16:30, 4 April 2019 (UTC)

TimesGerman, I guess you copy-pasted the first quote from here. It's always good to provide the link if possible. Anyway, the quote given by you supports the claims of the original poster: it doesn't mention chamar anywhere, and we can only mention what the source says. BTW, how does the second source support the chamar claims? Please provide the relevant quote(s) and the page number(s). - NitinMlk (talk) 23:03, 4 April 2019 (UTC)Reply

NitinMlk - Sikh Chamars are known as Ramdasia or Ravidassia in Punjab. The Ramdasia wiki link has plenty of sources showing this and I can add it here as well in the next few days. The Sikh Light Infantry is only composed of Mazhabi (Chura/Balmiki/Valmiki) and Chamar (Ramdasia) sikhs.

Adding references to show Chamar is the same as Ramdasia.

• 1

"Both the Ramdasia and the Ravidassia are converts from the Chamar caste", Untouchability in India with a Difference: Ad Dharm, Dalit Assertion, and Caste Conflicts in Punjab, Ronki Ram, Asian Survey, Vol. 44 No. 6, November/December 2004; (pp. 895-912) DOI: 10.1525/as.2004.44.6.895,

• 2

"balmikis and ramdasias (chamar Sikh)/ravidasias were not allowed to own land.", https://www.jstor.org/stable/4413731?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents, Scheduled Castes in Sikh Community: A Historical Perspective, Harish K. Puri, Economic and Political Weekly, Vol. 38, No. 26 (Jun. 28 - Jul. 4, 2003), pp. 2693-2701

• 3

http://socialjustice.nic.in/writereaddata/UploadFile/scorder1951636011777921451566.pdf, The list of scheduled castes lists the following as Chamar castes: "10. Chamar, Chanwar Chamar, Jatava or Jatav, Chamar, Mochi, Ramdasia, Ravidasi, Raidasi, Rehgarh or Raigar".'

• 4

www.censusindia.gov.in/datagov/SC14/SC_01_00_14_DDW-2011.xls, This list from Census of India shows the Chamar castes in shows that in J&K state: "'Chamar or Ramdasia, Chamar-Ravidas, Chamar-Rohidas".

• 5

Punjab Scheduled Castes Land Development & finance Corporation, Undertaking of Punjab Government, List the scheduled castes of Punjab and the Chamar castes as "Chamar, Jatia Chamar, Rehgar, Raigar, Ramdasia or Ravidasia", http://www.pbscfc.gov.in/?q=node/21,

• 6

https://books.google.com/books?id=-XrRH157jPAC&pg=PT21&lpg=PT21&dq=ramdasia+chamar&source=bl&ots=P4RJ9rLAJr&sig=ACfU3U1yKmchARF8o3DDVIIXDsbfUlgdyA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiZ0oLlo7nhAhVQIKwKHRsLAsA4HhDoATAEegQIBxAB#v=onepage&q=ramdasia%20chamar&f=false, "Born to a low caste Ramdasia Chamar family", Poet of the Revolution: The Memoirs of Lal Singh Dil, By Nirupama Dutt, Page Numbers Source ISBN: 067008655X, Publisher: Viking (October 5, 2012), Sold by: Random House India

• 7

"Born in a Ramdasia Chamar family in a village of Punjab", Kanshiram: Leader of the Dalits, Penguin India, New Delhi, 2014, pp. xxi, Publisher: Penguin Books Limited (21 April 2014), Language: English, ISBN-10: 067008509X, ISBN-13: 978-0670085095

• 8

https://www.wider.unu.edu/sites/default/files/wp2016-85.pdf, Page 37, Affirmative action and long-run changes in group inequality in India, by Hemanshu Kumari and Rohini Somanathan. List of all Chamar castes, listing Ramdasia in this list.

• 9

"The Mahar Regiment, for instance, recruits only Mahars, who are SCs, as jawans. The Sikh Light infantry is meant for Scheduled Caste Sikhs.", https://www.telegraphindia.com/india/caste-quota-cry-in-army/cid/846149

TimesGerman (talk) 16:01, 5 April 2019 (UTC)Reply

TimesGerman, please see WP:Synthesis, which states that do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. But that's what you are trying to do here. As I've already commented in this thread, "we can only mention what the source says". BTW, the sources explicitly state that the Sikh Light Infantry recruits from the Mazhabi and Ramdasia Sikhs – e.g. see here – and we can mention just that. But you are trying to suggest that the infantry recruits from Chuhras and Chamars, which would be WP:OR. - NitinMlk (talk) 21:34, 8 April 2019 (UTC)Reply

NitinMlk what I am saying that Sikh Churas are officially called Mazhabi Sikhs or Sikh Chamars are called Ramdasia. Both castes are heavily recruited into the Sikh Light Infantry which is also previously called Mazabhi and Ramdasia Sikh regiment. This is why Sikh light Infantry can be mentioned in the Chamar wiki page. TimesGerman (talk)

TimesGerman, the recruitment-related details of the Sikh Light Infantry belong to Mazhabi Sikh and Ramdasia articles. The former already has the relevant details, and similar details can be added to the latter. As far as their connections with Chuhras, Chamars, Julahas, Valmikis, etc. are concerned, readers would know that after going through the respective articles. Having said that, if any source directly discusses the connection between the Chamars and the Sikh Light Infantry then we can cover that here, but for that to happen you must provide the relevant reliable source(s). Thanks. - NitinMlk (talk) 22:49, 9 April 2019 (UTC)Reply

Why people outside of india doing any change on this page even they don't no about anything of india. Stop doing this. SirjiIndia (talk) 02:30, 26 March 2019 (UTC)Reply

TimesGerman, Chamar is used as a pejorative term in India, and that has been covered in a large number of academic sources. They even compared it with N word. In fact, its use is "a punishable offense under the Scheduled Caste and Scheduled Tribe (Prevention of Atrocities) Act, 1989".^[1] But you removed this detail by calling it irrelevant and not being standard in other caste articles. It is surely not irrelevant, and it's not standard in caste articles simply because neither the names of other castes are considered abusive in general nor their use is a punishable offence. Here are some quality sources regarding the use of the term Chamar:

• "The negative connotations associated with the name “chamar” long ago turned it into a term of profanity used by many caste Hindus, much like the term “nigger” has been used by many non-black Americans. By officially separating his followers from a degraded livelihood, and by further attempting to disengage them from the pejorative connotations of “chamar,” Ghasidas again hoped to address and remove a major vehicle used by the caste-Hindu society for his caste community's social and religious ostracism and their status of untouchability."^[2]

• "The term 'Chamar' in India is a highly stigmatized one, equivalent to the highly derogatory term used to humiliate African Americans. Under the SC/ST (Scheduled Caste/Scheduled Tribe) Prevention of Atrocities Act of 1989, it is a legal offence to call someone a Chamar."^[3]

• "In contemporary India, the word 'Chamar' is used with caution as it still carries offensive connotations and is considered a term of abuse."^[4]

• "The debased caste status of the Chamars is reflected in the fact that, even now, the word ‘Chamar’ is used as a general derogatory term: IndoTrinidadians who wish to insult and abuse each other will often use the term as an epithet. Interestingly, this term has entered the vocabulary of Afro-Trinidadians, too. While the term ‘Chamar’, used as a term of abuse, has no reference to the caste of the person abused, the essence of the insult consists in invoking an ambivalent element of the Indian cultural heritage, namely, the backward ‘tradition’ of ascribed status: the term ‘Chamar’ not only means ‘lowly individual’, but it also implies a ‘remnant of an undesirable practice’."^[5]

In fact, you can easily find even more sources for it, e.g. [1], [2],[3], [4], etc. And it is regularly reported in the Indian media.

I will temporarily remove the mention from the article, mainly to bring you to the discussion. So please go through the above sources, and stop edit warring. Also, don't add WP:CIRCULAR to the article, as you did with this, and again with this edit. Also pinging Sitush as they were the one who added/fixed this detail. Thanks. - NitinMlk (talk) 21:55, 3 April 2019 (UTC) fixed a citation NitinMlk (talk) 22:37, 4 April 2019 (UTC)Reply

NitinMlk, This wikipedia article is about the Chamar caste and not about use of the caste name as a slur. This is not relevant to the article or should be another wikipedia article. It is in fact very casteist and elitist thinking. None of the other caste articles in wikipedia have this mentioned in the introduction section. For example: It is very common to use "Bahman" as a curse word in punjab to mean someone who is not trustworthy and cunning. "Bania" is used a curse word to mean cowardly, greedy person. "Jat" is used a curse word to mean someone who dumb and uneducated. Every caste in India, has derogatory curse words used against it, by members of other castes. This is something that should not be included in Wikipedia since it is subjective/casteist. TimesGerman (talk) 15:47, 4 April 2019 (UTC)Reply

NitinMlk, The way this sentence is written is not correct: "Chamar is one of the untouchable communities, or dalits," since it implies that this is the defining features of this caste, and comes across as castiest, elitist and condescending. The Chamar caste may have been "untouchables" in some parts of India but in other parts of India they were not Untouchables (especially in Punjab and Sikhism). The sentence implies that this caste "low" and "weak", while it is one of the biggest castes in India, is politically very powerful (for example BSP and political influence that comes from its large numbers, the huge numbers of this caste in the Indian army etc. It would be better to write the sentence as "Chamar is one of the traditionally dalit communities, or dalits, native to India, Nepal and Pakistan".

See how the other "general" caste wiki articles are introduced: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jat_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bania_(caste) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahir TimesGerman (talk) 14:09, 4 April 2019 (UTC)Reply

Firstly, the article is about Chamar caste, the name of which is used as an abuse in India, which is a punishable offence per the supreme court's judgement. So it is related to Chamar caste, and we cannot and should not cover it anywhere else.

Secondly, it is not "very casteist and elitist thinking"; rather it is the scholarly work on which all of our caste-related articles are based.

Thirdly, "none of the other caste articles in wikipedia have this mentioned" because, as I've already explained in the previous comment, neither the names of other castes are considered abusive in general nor their use is a punishable offence. If you can provide multiple academic sources which say that the terms like Brahman, Bania, Jat, etc. are considered pejorative in India, and that their use is a punishable offence, then we should surely mention that in the body as well as lead of their respective articles. But you know it yourself that that is not the case. And Wikipedia is not censored, so please stop the using the term casteist again and again.

Fourthly, we summarize the work of scholars in caste-related articles on this project. If a controversial claim is made by only one academic, then we cover that detail with attribution only in the article's body. But if the same details are covered by multiple scholars then we cover them without attribution and sum them up in the lead as well. And that's the case with the use of the term Chamar.

Finally, this section is regarding the use of the term Chamar, so you should open a new section regarding your other objection(s). BTW, before you open new section regarding the mention of dalit/untouchable in the article, you should back your every claim with academic sources, like I did above. Your personal claims count for nothing. Having said that, I will check whether the modern academic sources call them untouchables or ex-untouchables. - NitinMlk (talk) 23:34, 4 April 2019 (UTC)Reply

You seem to have problem regarding the mention of the abusive use of the term in the lead. I have no problem with its removal from the lead, and mentioning it just in the article's body, provided other experienced editors agree with that. Until then, you should focus on providing sources for your other claims, e.g. your claim regarding the Sikh Light Infantry. BTW, I might not edit WP for a day or two, so be patient. Thanks. - NitinMlk (talk) 14:16, 5 April 2019 (UTC)Reply

I agree with NitinMlk and I think that TimesGerman, after all these years of trying, needs to drop the stick. - Sitush (talk) 13:08, 6 May 2019 (UTC)Reply

TimesGerman, you have reinstated the list of Chamar subcastes inspite of my clear edit summary and the relevant comment on your talk page. Anyway, as you cited this and this source in support of your added content, please give the relevant quotes from the sources which mention that the "Chamar, Jatia Chamar, Rehgar, Raigar," etc. are the subcastes of Chamar. Thanks. - NitinMlk (talk) 22:58, 9 April 2019 (UTC)Reply

NitinMlk (talk), Please see the following - http://socialjustice.nic.in/writereaddata/UploadFile/Scan-0015.jpg, http://socialjustice.nic.in/writereaddata/UploadFile/Scan-0005636052298648822263.jpg, In both documents from the "Ministry of Social Justice and Empowerment ; "Department of Social Justice and Empowerment"; "Government of India" ; List of Scheduled Castes" they have listed all the scheduled castes in the respective states. They have listed in row 9 in brackets: "[9.Chamar, Jatia Chamar, Reghar, Raigar, Ramdasi, Ravidasi, Ramdasia, Ramdasia Sikh, Ravidasia, Ravidasia Sikh]".

NitinMlk Publisher = Government of India Press, Minto Road, New Delhi and Published by the Controller of of Publications, Delhi 2002. In the constitution of India, Order Amendment Act 25 of 2002, published by the "Gazette of India", Part II - Section 1, Ministry of Law, Justice and Company Affairs (legislative Department), New Delhi, the 27th May 2002, Page 2, "for entry 9, substitute - 9.Chamar, Jatia Chamar, Reghar, Raigar, Ramdasi, Ravidasi, Ramdasia, Ramdasia Sikh, Ravidasia, Ravidasia Sikh". http://socialjustice.nic.in/writereaddata/UploadFile/CONSTITUTION%20(SC)%20ORDER%20(AMDT)%20ACT%202002-1.pdf

TimesGerman, I guess you didn't read my relevant edit summary & two comments, so I will repeat my comment: "please give the relevant quotes from the sources which mention that the "Chamar, Jatia Chamar, Rehgar, Raigar," etc. are the subcastes of Chamar." The government notification just shows that they are all scheduled castes. It lists them together without mentioning any reason for it. And we cannot speculate on their behalf, as that will be in contravention of WP:OR. If you have a source which states that so-and-so are the subcastes of Chamars in Haryana & Himachal Pradesh, then we can add that in the article. Otherwise we cannot do that. - NitinMlk (talk) 08:08, 14 April 2019 (UTC)Reply

NitinMlk (talk), Please see this source: "The caste whose collective actions could be justifiably put under the category of “change in the caste hierarchy” leading to political implications is Chamar/Ad-dharmi. For the sake of clarification and to avoid nomenclatural confusion we may add Ramdasia and Ravidasia also. Since they are all Chamars, the subsequent reference to all these caste names would be covered under the umbrella term, ‘Chamar’.", Page 24, CHANGING CASTE RELATIONS AND EMERGING CONTESTATIONS IN PUNJAB, PARAMJIT S. JUDGE, https://sas-space.sas.ac.uk/5650/1/AHRC_2,_PS_Judge,_Caste_Hierarchy_Revised.pdf TimesGerman (talk) 18:01, 11 April 2019 (UTC)Reply

Here you've provided a new source, but how does it support your this edit? In short, which of the above sources mentions that "the Chamar sub-castes are known as Chamar, Jatia Chamar, Rehgar, Raigar, Ramdasi, Ravidasi, Balahi, Batoi, Bhambi, Chamar-Rohidas, Jatav, Jatava, Ramdasia" in Haryana and Himachal Pradesh? - NitinMlk (talk) 08:08, 14 April 2019 (UTC)Reply