Talk:Greek genocide - Wikipedia

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Is there any point to this following the IAGS recognition of the massacres as genocide? Genocide denialists and kemalist apologists should not be on an equal footing to an international body of scholars dedicated to the subject. It is removed.

I also amended the first sentence to reflect the definition of genocide as set out in Britannica

"the deliberate and systematic destruction of a group of people because of their ethnicity, nationality, religion, or race." (Britannica, 2007 ed.)

http://genocidescholars.org/images/PRelease16Dec07IAGS_Officially_Recognizes_Assyrian_Greek_Genocides.pdf

Xenovatis (talk) 16:04, 25 December 2007 (UTC)Reply

Britannica may define genocide as that, but since there is a large amount of people that disagree with it being called a genocide, you cannot use the definition in such a manner. It has not been proven enough to these people that it was deliberate and systematic in Pontus, hence the controversy. You cannot say they are all Turks, and to call them all denialists is to paint with a broad brush. I should have restored the POV tag, but I didn't. Monsieurdl ^{mon talk-mon contribs}

18:36, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

• Please specify who you mean by "a large amount of people" do you imply laymen or scholars?
• If the relevant academic body has pronounced on the issue wouldn't that indicate that the scholars scholars most competent to do so have decided that it was in fact a genocide? One of the arguments previously leveled against use of the term was that of non-recognition, specifically by IAGS and the UN. The first is now moot while the second argument conflicts with counter-arguments regarding the use of US resolutions that recognize it as deriving from political as opposed to scholarly bodies.
• I will awai response before reverting. Thank you.

Xenovatis (talk) 21:39, 25 December 2007 (UTC)Reply

I imply both- hence why it is controversial, and so many nations have not made it an official genocide.

It is not proof by X scholarly body that is needed; it is evidence that directly names Pontic Greeks and those along the Black Sea as victims of genocide within the article. Greek genocide and Pontic genocide are two different subjects, hence this article being here.

I think it is perfectly clear as I have edited it that it is under debate, and a majority of people still do not recognize it as a genocide, be it scholarly or no. I am not the one to share the burden of proof in this case- it is up to you to prove that it is so by using balanced references rather than me prove it did not happen. I am not a Turk, a sympathizer, nor a denialist- I fully believe that facts taken in a neutral, scientific manner prevail over facts taken from a nationalist or emotional view point and skewed to a particular POV. To me, newspaper articles and scholars who get together for the sole purpose of labeling ganocides are NOT valid references- they have biases (i.e. sell newspapers or promote their genocide work) over being truly neutral. They can say they are neutral, but are they truly? I have seen so many times certain British authors be decried for their biases while others are quoted like gospel who have the same kinds of biases argued by others. I want the truth, not rhetoric. Monsieurdl ^{mon talk-mon contribs}

22:17, 25 December 2007 (UTC)

• "Greek genocide and Pontic genocide are two different subjects." Actually I kinda wondered about that one. I searched for "Greek genocide" in WP and there is no such article. While I am new to the discussion could someone enlighten me as to whether there were similar killings in other parts of modern Turkey and if so why use the adjective "Pontic" as opposed to talking about a "Greek" or "Hellenic" genocide?
• While I conced the possibility of bias in any source this begs the question of what it would take to decide the matter? If we can agree on that first then we can set about looking if such information exists or not. Otherwise people argue against inclusion due to non-recognition by IAGS and when that is forthcoming, other issues arise and we have wasted time discusiing it in the first place. From what I understand at any rate the bone of contention is not whether the massacres occured but whether they should be labelled genocide. Again I fail to see how the opinion of one historian (who is if anything more likely on an a-priori basis to be biased) convince those unmoved by that of a group of such. Perhaps we can attempt to discern the current opinion of the scientific community by listing those scholars of the period who do and those who don't recognize these massacres as genocide. Criteria of objectivity (e.g. not ethnically involved, no ethnic agendas, no political biases) could be discussed.I agree that WP should reflect as opposed to influence estavlished scientific opinion.

Xenovatis (talk) 09:49, 26 December 2007 (UTC)Reply

I have wondered myself why there was no such article, and yet this one exists. Of course the problem has always been the use of the term massacre versus the term genocide- I think what the problem rightly is is the automatic linking of the term genocide to what Hitler did, and that is what causes all of the vitriol.

As far as the sources, I have found it particularly difficult to find distinct references regarding Pontic genocide, but there are many more regarding Greek genocide subjects. If there was a proposal to delete and merge this article into Greek genocide then it would easily get my vote. By doing so, sourcing everything would really be simple. I would hope you'd agree by your comments above. Monsieurdl ^{mon talk-mon contribs}

• I agree that this is the reason behind the reaction, most people who object object on that term alone as opposed to the historicity of the facts presented. Again though genocide does not imply nazism, e.g. the genocides in Darfur and Rwanda which are called such without anyone linking their perpetrators with nazism.
• I agree with your proposal and support removing the adjective Pontic.
• My last proposal would be to try to list historical sources and establish whether the term genocide is widely accepted.

Xenovatis (talk) 19:39, 27 December 2007 (UTC)Reply

The map by William R. Shepherd suggests that extent of the Albanian population extended across the majority of present-day southern Serbia up to the city-boundaries of Nis. The document is false (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Kosovo). Another source should be used for the map that is consistent with historical fact or the map should be removed altogether.

I've read through the article, and feel that it is written in a Greek POV tone. I suggest the lead mention that the International Association of Genocide Scholars hasn't recognized it, and that Turkey refuses to call this "genocide", as those things are quite important, and having them near the top (as well as where they are) would reduce the bias towards the Greek end considerably. Also, should the title not be "Pontic Greek genocide", with "genocide" lowercased? · AndonicO ^Talk 17:16, 6 June 2007 (UTC)Reply

If you want to add anything to the lead, feel free to, about the title that seems to be the general practice (Armenian Genocide, Assyrian Genocide, Rwandan Genocide, Bosnian Genocide...). Anything else?--Ploutarchos 17:25, 6 June 2007 (UTC)Reply

Okay, I thought I'd ask because there's an edit war going on though. · AndonicO ^Talk 17:29, 6 June 2007 (UTC)Reply

It says that the International Association of Genocide Scholars, European Union, Council, and UN haven't made reference to the genocide, but that isn't sourced... I only added the Turkish Minister's view (since that did have a source). · AndonicO ^Talk 18:11, 6 June 2007 (UTC)Reply

I understand this is how this article works. Unless a source is found saying that they do recognize it this article shall write they do not (regardless of sources). Perhaps the title of this section should be renamed from "Greek POV" to "Yet more Turkish POV".--Ploutarchos 18:22, 6 June 2007 (UTC)Reply

Just commenting on this [1]. I find it very rich comming from the land where admitting that the Armenian Genocide took place is a criminal offence but denying that an Algerian Genocide took place is also to be a criminal offence [2]. Turkish Foreign Minister speaks of a "traditional Greek policy of distorting history" ... is the pot calling the kettle black?--Ploutarchos 18:22, 6 June 2007 (UTC)Reply

Perhaps you like the title better? By the way, I'm not Turkish, I'm Greek, born in America. · AndonicO ^Talk 21:28, 6 June 2007 (UTC)Reply

I note that you self-declare as an "American" of "multiple ancestries" on your userpage. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 21:36, 6 June 2007 (UTC)Reply

Yes, American (born), multiple ancestries (my family's never stayed in one place too long), and Greek (as far as I know, that's the origin of my family tree; my last name is also Greek). · AndonicO ^Talk 21:41, 6 June 2007 (UTC)Reply

Not quite the same as a "Greek, born in America", e.g. George Andreas Papandreou. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 22:00, 6 June 2007 (UTC)Reply

Well, I doubt eating 500 gyros will convince you I'm Greek, so I'll stop trying. :-) · AndonicO ^Talk 22:02, 6 June 2007 (UTC)Reply

Your ancestry is irrelevant. I'm merely noting inconsistencies. By the way, proclaiming your "Greekness" doesn't legitimise anything, if that's what you thought. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 22:06, 6 June 2007 (UTC)Reply

Ploutarchos said I was Turkish, which I'm not, but rather (in this article at least) the opposite. I wasn't trying to legitimize, I just wanted to clarify (I'm not Turkish, I pointed this out, and you say it's irrelevant). And I'm not sure what "inconsistencies" you're refering to. · AndonicO ^Talk 22:21, 6 June 2007 (UTC)Reply

Um, I never said you were Turkish. In fact, I never said you were anything. All I was doing was bitching about Turkish Foreign Minister's hypocrisy and the Turkish POV standards which have overwhelmed this article. Could we please stop discussing Andonicos's ancestry; I'm sure it's a very interesting tale, most people have an interesting story behind them, but it makes this section confusing and hard to read.--Ploutarchos 22:26, 6 June 2007 (UTC)Reply

Ah, sorry, I misread your comment. And I would gladly stop discussing my ancestry. · AndonicO ^Talk 22:57, 6 June 2007 (UTC)Reply

I agree with the edit. I'd just remove "however", since it is argumentative. NikoSilver 23:04, 6 June 2007 (UTC)Reply

Already done. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 23:07, 6 June 2007 (UTC)Reply

Yeah, saw it. AndronicO, I don't want to be close when you burp! NikoSilver 23:12, 6 June 2007 (UTC)Reply

;-) · AndonicO ^Talk 00:27, 7 June 2007 (UTC)Reply

The same sources youre using in the article says that there were organised atrocities between the years 1919-1922 on the part of greeks, what is has to do with "trivializing" the genocide? And the genocide nobody but greece recognize in the face of earth..Ah sorry ı forget to mention cyprus recognize it as well--laertes d 20:02, 12 June 2007 (UTC)Reply

İm really bored with all these silly games of reverting articles, there are enough and credible sources quite clearly stating organized greek massacres in western anatolia during the greek occupation of it, and there is nothing wrong to say thhat massacres in the period 1919-1922 was mutual..--laertes d 22:30, 12 June 2007 (UTC)Reply

Regardless of of who commits massacres, they are regretable. However, there is a big difference between massacres that constitute a genocide and a few isolated massacres/atrocities. The Turkish victims numbered several thousand ( see Rummel's accounts), the Greek victims hundreds of thousands. The Turkish atrocities were premeditated and centrallly planned (see Akcam's accounts). The Greek atrocities were spontaneous, isolated individual or group acts of violence. There was no premeditated and/or central Greek plan. Please provide a third party source which states that there was a premeditated and centrally directed Greek plan. - Rizos01 16:53, 23 June 2007 (UTC)Reply

Rizos, both Arnold J. Toynbee and Taner akcam actually argues that Greek atrocities were organised in nature, they were not some isolated acts..And these opinions are shared by Inter allied commission reports and by the representative of red cross..--laertes d 10:07, 13 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Please provide book titles and page numbers, as well as report titles, page numbers, and date of reports. Otherwise your arguments are not credible.--Rizos01 22:59, 15 July 2007 (UTC)Reply

Kekrops, do not change the content of citations the way you want please, ı merely quoted the authors. toynbee states in his book that "There were both spontaneous and organized atrocities on either side since the Greek occupation of Smyrna".. he doesnt say outside of Pontus, what he says includes Pontus as well..And that is also true for the citations taken from Akcam..--laertes d 10:14, 18 August 2007 (UTC)Reply

A millenium of Turkish inhabitance should be enough to secure the city's name as Izmir. I've deleted Smyrna in the parentheses. Anyone who wishes to find out the past names of the city can click its link. By the way, I didn't see Selanik in parentheses after Thessalonika...— Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.38.194.49 (talk • contribs)

What's the big deal? Izmir comes from the Greek name anyway; it's not as if it constitutes such a grand example of Turkish authenticity that it must be guarded so zealously against the hated gavurlar. Thessaloniki, on the other hand, does not derive from Selanik, but rather the contrary. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 16:14, 13 August 2007 (UTC)Reply

WP:BITE and lol for gavurlar. The argument wasn't about etymology, that's your argument. Should we write next to each word the word it derives from in parentheses? The argument was probably the Greek name vs Turkish name for a Turkish city. Turks might have taken the name from the Greeks, and changed it a little bit over years to make it easier pronounceable for a Turkish speaker, but so did Greeks changing the Hittite or Assyrian name or the name of the Amazonness queen into Greek. Also Turkish name of the city is İzmir (note the capital letter). Deniz^T_C , the infidel (infidelis) (writing the word it derives from)

It's not a question of Greek vs Turkish names, but a question of accurate chronology. The fact of the matter is that the names Smyrna (and Constantinople, for that matter) were in common usage and were the internationally recognized names of the cities during the time period. Ataturk changed the names in 1930. Hence we should write Smyrna, perhaps with "modern-day Izmir" in parentheses, for any reference to the city in question that is pre-1930, in order to be historically accurate. After-all, no one would think in antiquity of substituting Tunis for Carthage, etc. and the same principle applies here. Cheers, 74.134.238.58 23:21, 13 August 2007 (UTC)Reply

"The Greek name vs Turkish name for a Turkish city" is not a serious argument, as the city has been Greek much longer than it's been Turkish. I was simply noting the absurdity of the seemingly pathological aversion of many Turkish editors to the original Greek names of places in modern Turkey. However, I agree with the second anonymous editor that it is a matter of accurate chronology, so İZMİR is fine when discussing the Turkish mayor's rather amusing spitting of the dummy, as it occurred in 2006. Finally, please note the city's name in English is Izmir without the dotted I; this is en.wikipedia.org, after all. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 00:56, 14 August 2007 (UTC)Reply

User:Laertes d has reverted my clarifications on the nature of the Genocide. He would like us to believe that the massacres in Pontus were somehow the direct result of the Greco-Turkish War of 1919-22, which took place in western Anatolia, several hundred kilometres away. There were no Greek forces in Pontus at the time and hence no war there. It is essential to distinguish between these two discrete historical events. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 10:21, 18 August 2007 (UTC)Reply

Kekrops thats the problem they were not two discrete historical events, according to a multitude of historians, that includes Toynbee and Akcam as well, there wouldnt be such a thing as Turkish national Movement without Greeks occupying smyrna..There was a war between Greece and Turkey regardless of where the Greek army was..Btw, ı recently noticed that Rummel calls the masssacres greeks committed in western anatolia a "genocide" as he calls the Turkish massacres of greeks as such..--laertes d 10:23, 18 August 2007 (UTC)Reply

You admit then that the Greeks were slaughtered in Pontus in retribution for the Hellenic Army's landing at Smyrna, at the other end of the Anatolian peninsula; they were not casualties of any fighting between Greece and Turkey as such. That is a crucial distinction to make. Your attempt to present the victims of the Genocide as mere casualties of war is historical revisionism and has no place on Wikipedia. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 10:47, 18 August 2007 (UTC)Reply

Historical revisionism? This article cannot find one monograph to its name, not one encylopedic article, nor one journal article. The title is unsourced, the only country to recognise a so called genocide is Greece, the editors who wrote this are Greeks, and the editors who blocked an arbitration to resolve the title are, again, Greeks. So I find it odd, actually laughable, when you get on your high horse and talk about "historical revisionism having no place on Wikipedia". Honestly, a joke! --A.Garnet 11:06, 18 August 2007 (UTC)Reply

The only joke here is your suggestion that Greeks are the problem. That's exactly what the perpetrators of this genocide thought. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 21:13, 22 August 2007 (UTC).Reply

Spare us the melodrama and read what I said. --A.Garnet 10:30, 23 August 2007 (UTC)Reply

You haven't said anything new that would warrant a serious response. Just the same old insecure Turkish denialism ("so-called") and blatant lies ("unsourced"). ·ΚέκρωΨ· 11:10, 23 August 2007 (UTC)Reply

Then Kekrops Turks who were slaughtered in occupied lands were also not the victims of casualties of war, they were also massacred in areas where there was not an organized Turkish unit..What distinction are you referring to? And you keep changing source content the way you want, toynbee doesnt say "outside of Pontus" but he says "There were both spontaneous and organized atrocities on either side since the Greek occupation of Smyrna"..what's the point of having citations if youre going to change them according to your personal ideas?

And im not representing them as causalities of war but ım simply citing reliable non-pro turkish sources which shows that there were massacres towards civilianss at both side..--laertes d 13:16, 18 August 2007 (UTC)Reply

No, what you're really trying to say is that because Greeks killed Turks too in a different part of the country, Turks did not commit genocide against Greeks in Pontus. It's the same pathetic relativist argument used in the case of the Armenian Genocide and is equally unconvincing. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 21:03, 22 August 2007 (UTC)Reply

I do not think going until detail is really right, we should focus on the article it self instead of adding more controversial material. --Vonones 08:19, 19 August 2007 (UTC)Reply

Vonones what is that controversial material are you talking about? the article itself is controversial as Garnett said.Im making reference to absolutely non-pro turkish sources like Toynbee and Akcam, toynbee's book is perhaps the only book which is written exclusively about the atrocities of the greco-turkish war..Plus you are changing the source material to something the sources doesnt say..--laertes d 09:20, 19 August 2007 (UTC)Reply

The references of shameful act are all fine except for this, this is really irrelevant this has nothing to do with the text in the book and in the article, and throughout 1920-23, the period of the Turkish War of Independence. --Vonones 00:25, 21 August 2007 (UTC)Reply

how it is irrelevant can you explain it vonones? That is how it is written in the book and that is completely relevant with the article..The citations from Toynbee are also quite relevant..--laertes d 09:03, 21 August 2007 (UTC)Reply

Yes, you add "here were both spontaneous and organized atrocities on either side since the Greek occupation of Smyrna" than that sentence which is irrelevant you cannot speculate. --Vonones 19:57, 21 August 2007 (UTC)Reply

I still cant see how it is irrelevant, obviously you dont like the naming of turkish war of independence..--laertes d 07:54, 22 August 2007 (UTC)Reply

The "Turkish War of Independence" is the name given in hindsight in official Turkish nationalist discourse to a series of wars fought against a multitude of enemies on numerous fronts over several years. As your attempt to relativise the Genocide pertains specifically to the war between Greece and Turkey in western Anatolia, a link to Greco-Turkish War (1919-1922) is more appropriate. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 20:51, 22 August 2007 (UTC)Reply

Scenes of the Pontic Greek Genocide are prominent in the initial chapters of Middlesex, the 2003 Pulitzer Prize-winning novel by Jeffrey Eugenides. Under which heading would this best be added to the page? As it's a work of fiction, Further reading seems inappropriate. For now I'll add a heading, In literature — though I'm unfamiliar with the WP Style Guide on this point. -- Thanks, Deborahjay 10:55, 24 August 2007 (UTC)Reply
Further to the above: other pages do use the heading Further reading; however the page is presently protected from editing. -- Deborahjay 11:17, 24 August 2007 (UTC)Reply

Thanks, Deborah. No doubt the author's Greek surname will cause it to be deprecated by Turkish editors. See above. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 11:21, 24 August 2007 (UTC)Reply

"hellenicgenocide.org" and the likes of it are most emphatically not reliable sources by any standard. I will strongly object to the inclusion of just about anything sourced to nationalist hate sites like that. We've been through it before. These are completely unacceptable. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:04, 13 October 2007 (UTC)Reply

"British historian Arnold J. Toynbee wrote that it was the Greek landings that created the Turkish National Movement led by Mustafa Kemal and it is almost certain that if the Greeks had never landed at Smyrna, the consequent atrocities on the Turkish side would not have occurred." Well i guess Toynbee was either a fortune teller or a retarded man as i can't remember Armenian army landing in Turkey before the Armenian genocide and i can't remember Greek army landing in Asia Minor in 1915 when "Amele Tamburu" (=forced labour aka work till you die in Lake Van etc) where at their prime.All in all i can't see how a totally personal view based on someone's "good wi$$" (to say at least) can be presented as a fact here.Eagle of Pontus 11:25, 27 October 2007 (UTC)Reply

Kekrops enough is enough we have been over this before, and now you turned back to do the same kind of editing again without trying to initiate a discussion over it..These two sources are relevant to the article, Akcam`s work perhaps the newest book written on the subject, Toynbee was an eyewitness to the whole series of massacres committed by Greeks and Turks, citing them is completely relevant for this article..

And these info belong to the intro, as they summarize what happened, they are not about why it happened-that would suit to the background section- but what happened in this period..--laertes d 08:44, 28 October 2007 (UTC)Reply

Kekrops, youre just pushing me to create an article, which i thought should exist anyway, that of the massacre committed against Turks by greek army of invasion, naming it Greek atrocities in Anatolia(as it would be the translation of Turkish expression of the atrocities committed by greek army `anadoluda Yunan mezalimi`)..There are enough sources to do this..I already have two neutral sources to begin with which uses the word genocide in relation of what greeks had done..Rummel and Cedric James uses the word genocide in describing these acts..--laertes d 10:19, 28 October 2007 (UTC)Reply

Kekrops, i know that you noticed this section, but as always you are just pushing your POV without having a discussion over it, in other words you have nothing to say..Your remark is again ridiculous, im quoting you the expert historians about the issue, you`re naming it `relativising the genocide.`

I think you should have been banned beacause of your insistent edit warring in several articles with your deliberate tactic of running away from discussion and changing the topic when you stuck up.. However as none of this happens i get completely dissatisfied with how this place is being ruled.. You did the same thing in several articles and you have gone away with it..--laertes d 20:32, 28 October 2007 (UTC)Reply

• Can you please justify what is the connection of the Pontic genocide (with anti-Christian measures being traced as back as 1915) with the Greco-Turkish war of 1919-1922 and in which way is justified the extermination of Greeks in Pontus with the Anatolian campaign in Smyrna several thousand miles away;Eagle of Pontus 21:12, 28 October 2007 (UTC)Reply

You may read the talk page of the greco turkish war article for similar extending discussions, but just to summarize my point:

first i dont justify anything, massacre is a massacre and it has to be condemned..

2-There wasnt such a thing as a Turkish national movement before the Greeks invaded Anatolia, Greek invasion created it and thats why toynbee blames partly Venizelos and Llyod George for the atrocities committed by both sides during the conflict.. The Ottoman government in Istanbul was already under British control, and rulers of the previous regime had already fled as they were being sought as war criminals..

3-Greek army starting from the first day of the invasion had committed atrocities towards Turks in the occupied areas or forced expelled Turkish populations inhabiting those regions, dont you think it may somehow lead to unjustified acts of violence against greeks who are inhabiting elsewhere in Anatolia..

4-Greeks were not exterminated in Pontus, however there were massacres towards them thats something i dont dispute..Often they were forced to flee inwards Anatolia, however there were still about 200.000 greeks in the Pontus region at the time of the population exchange..

I can reverse your question, greek army had complete control over the areas it occupied, it also had nothing to do with the war between greece and turkey at the time, how do you justify then massacres committed by greek army in the regions it had complete control over, where there wasnt an actual war..

--laertes d 22:12, 28 October 2007 (UTC)Reply

• I don't justify any massacre by the Greek army whatsoever.I am a Pontic Greek and my grand-parents fled to Russia and Greece because they saw their houses looted, their beloved ones either massacred or convicted (to death) in the "Labour battalions" near lake Van and all that justified in the name of being "infidels".They were expelled from a region they inhabited for several thousands years, and the remaining survivors had to try to rebuild everything from the scratch living the lives of refugees in a alien place (Makedonia) where the others saw them as aliens, just because the were an easy pray for the Turkish nationalists.Naming what the Greek army did in Smyrna (which i very much doubt if a Muslim in Pontus could learn taking into account the distance ) as an explanation is disorienting the reader.i must remind you that at the same time 500,000 Muslims lived in Macedonia(and they remained in tact during the war).How would you feel if Greeks started to massacre them as a retaliation for what was happening in Pontus;In your eyes ones explains the other;Just asking.Eagle of Pontus 10:33, 29 October 2007 (UTC)Reply

Eagle, my point here is that both Greek and Turkish nationalists tried to build homogeneus zones and they did so by either massacring or expelling the populations under their control..i dont think it is disorienting the reader but it explains what had happened in this period..

About the Muslims in Macedonia, youre right but there wasnt much a point of expelling or killing these people beacuse they were in the established Greek lands however that wasnt the case in much of the western anatolian coastlans, where there was a mixed population, and both sides were claiming it is their right to have their state upon that territory as they were constituting the majority..

Btw, Turkish nationalists used the excuse for forced marching Pontus people that Venizelos had already claimed right on black sea coastal areas in the Paris Peace conference and if Greeks would remain there, they would facilitate a possible greek invasion..I dont explain one massacre with another massacre, i am simply saying there were massacres committed against Turkish civilians by the greek army in that same period of time, and we need to mention of these acts in terms of some historical accuracy..--laertes d 11:37, 29 October 2007 (UTC)Reply

Laertes, basically your discussion has made it clear that you are attempting to justify the Turkish massacres of Greek civilians. AlexiusComnenus 09:49, 30 October 2007 (UTC)Reply

I ignore your comment, and i assume you either havent read what is written above or simply trying your best not to discuss the issue in hand..--laertes d 07:31, 31 October 2007 (UTC)Reply

Please stop your mindless reverting. The subject of this article is the Pontian Genocide; any complementary information on the casualties of the Greco-Turkish war in a geographically distant part of Anatolia belongs outside the lead. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 13:05, 3 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

Point you insist not understanding is, as usual, the lead is to give info about what happened in this period of time, you cant use it to present isolated segments of events, in which only the atrocities that Turks had committed would be shown, whereas the Greek atrocities moved elsewhere..

By simply following your `logic`, i now have to open an article called `Turkish Genocide in Asia Minor`, since there are enough sources about the atrocities performed by Greek troops and there are also sources who use the `Genocide` word..

Unfortenetly i agree with Garnett when he said: `Its like talking to a brick wall.`..Regards..--laertes d 10:22, 4 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

Laertes, there's a huge leap between the info being included below, and a separate article. We're not discussing whether the information should be included at all or not. We are discussing if it has such high relevance to the subject to warrant inclusion in the lead. And it hasn't. NikoSilver 12:23, 4 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

And yet it has been there for over months, it gets truly pathetic of what you two have been doing in several articles..Youre supposed to make up your own minds, not to back each other in each and ever occasion no matter what the discussion topic is..

About your recent comments, it certainly has such a relevance to be included in the lead and thats obvious why it has, since both sides committed similar atrocities, singling out what one party had done is definitely not a neutral way of presenting what actuallly had happened at that period..

Alternative to it would be a separate article about isolated segments of events in which Greek atrocities against Turkisn civilıans would be mentioned, and perhaps with the genocide word in the title, as you Nıko like to use that word so often..--laertes d 12:32, 5 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

I'd like to see you try. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 19:07, 5 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

Dont worry you`ll get what you want..--laertes d 22:24, 6 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

How about some real argument why this background piece is worthy being included in the intro? I say it is undue in the intro, and irrelevant. It is the one who makes the claim who has to back it up, not the other way round, and you are not doing a good job at it. NikoSilver 22:33, 6 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

It seemed to me quite relevant, we`re not talking about a background info, but about what happened in this period of time..i keep backing it up, as you may read from above, (Personal attack removed) ..thts quite simple, the Turks being systematically massacred, just in the same period of time, is not a background info but the info itself..

Most ridiculously, after waiting for so long you showed up with your discussion offer just when i revert the article back into its old format, and when i said that i`m going to open a separate Greek atrocities article if that normal format would be continued to (Personal attack removed)

laertes d 23:06, 6 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

Yes, but the point is that these things that happened (if they happened), it was during the retreat of the Greek armies, which was preceded many years by the events on the Pontic Greeks and not "in the same period of time". So, this is the definition of "background information" (or better it could be in the aftermath section, but since bits of the Smyrna catastrophe are mentioned here, then it is complete "background"). Oh, and watch your language too, please. NikoSilver 20:07, 7 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

Im really sick and tired of such an attitude persistently repeated by you two, these events had not taken place during the Greek retreat, but started to occur by the time greek army had set its food in Anatolian soil..All the citations that ım quoting are demonstrating this fact and youre still talking about the retreat of the Greek army as if you have not noticed the citations from Akcam and Toynbee, and yet you expect calmness and call people for a "debate"..You dont debate anythıng just delibaretly turn a blınd eye to the sources cited..

Akcam and Toynbee clearly states that there were organized Greek atrocıtıes throughout the period of Greco Turkish war, which retreat are you talking about?--laertes d 13:00, 8 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

The genocide of Christians in eastern Anatolia began years before the Greek army set foot in western Asia Minor. They simply aren't directly related. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 15:13, 8 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

And thats your own private point of view that you keep repeating, which is unsupported by sources..You just keep repeat the same things, and call it a debate? In any case, there had been organised Greek atrocities in the same period of time(1919-1922), Toynbee and Akcam and several other sources make ıt quıte clear, what is your aim then Kekrops other than pushing your POV? --laertes d 19:13, 8 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

Ummm, calm down Laertes please. 1919 is three years after 1916. NikoSilver 20:20, 8 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

So? What despises me the most with your behavior is that youre acting like you dont understand, these specific citations are about the atrocities of the Greco-Turkish war, and that happened during the period of 1919-1922..

Article already mentions about the atrocities that took place before that time, so again what is your point other than pushing your POV relentlessly without saying one single word worthy of consideration?..--laertes d 21:43, 8 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

Two words: Causality and excuse. You make it sound like the cause for PGG was the Greek atrocities by including it in the info. Well, no. It is the other way round. Also, this info in the intro serves you as an "excuse" or as a "hell, both of them did ugly things there", while it is not so. So you are committing WP:OR by elevating this paragraph to that status. No scholar ever equated the two issues, no scholar ever linked causality to one another, and therefore WP will not mention a background info in the intro to serve your purpose of excusing the inexcusable. And for the millionth time, watch your language. NikoSilver 21:56, 8 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

My point is, and has been that Greek army, according to non-pro Turkish historians had committed severe atrocities towards the Turkish population in the invaded lands. And obvioulsy someone called Arnold J. Toynbee, a well known, respectable historian, who happened to be an eyewitness to the massacres committed by both sides durign the war, had actually equated thse massacres..

But that is not my purpose, im not trying to produce excuses but im trying to make this article reflect what happened durign this time period, not to let this article be the show case of ugly nationalist rhetoric..Check your talk page top see what some scoholars had actually said..--laertes d 22:09, 8 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

I'm wondering about another thing: "undue weight", how many Turks were killed by Greeks, do you have a number? I think this is relevant when we talk about hundereds of thousands of Greeks killed (I'm pretty sure that a Jew killed a German at some point in time, is that relevant in the discusion of Holocaust? OK, this is an exageration, but you see my point) -- AdrianTM 22:17, 8 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

Check line 382 in this table and line 473 in that one vs line 428 in the first. The source is Rummel, so 15,000 Turkish civilians as a low estimate should be considered "exaggerated". NikoSilver 22:31, 8 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

Again that is the same problem, these are you private opinions, i am showing you reliable, non-pro Turkish historians who claim that there were organised atrocities -massacres and expulsion numbering some not so important thousands of causalties- since the time Greek army invaded anatolia.. We`re not talking here about the Jews but the organised units of an established state in the areas it has complete control..--laertes d 22:24, 8 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

I understand that, but it would be nice if we could find a number, that would make things more clear for all the parts interested in the issue. -- AdrianTM 22:31, 8 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

Thanks Niko, I didn't see your response when I replied. -- AdrianTM 22:33, 8 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

Oh common, Rummel mostly relies on George Horton and Marjori Housepian Dobkin, at the other opposite end, Justin A. McCarthy would say the Turkish civilian deaths were either the same or more..Plus that list also ignore the forced expellings..But the issue i think a serious discussion has to focus on should the intent on the part of Turkish and Greek national movements, not how many could have they managed to kill..--laertes d 22:42, 8 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

Where he relies is here. NikoSilver 22:46, 8 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

i meant for the numbers, he relies the `estimates` of this horton guy for the numbers..

Anyway, i think there is enough source that the Greek army had tried to build up homogenous or majority greek populations in western anatolia by expelling or massacring the Turkish civilian population there, as the Turkish forces were doing it elsewhere in the exact same period of time, so these informations has to be included in the intro of this article..There is nothing wrong with having cited neutral, respectable historians

Add this source to Toynbee and akcam, note that he uses that word genocide in relation with what the Greek army had done in the occupied zones:

`The short-sightedness of both Lloyd George and President Wilson seems incredible, explicable only in terms of the magic of Venizelos and an emotional, perhaps religious, aversion to the Turks. For Greek claims were at best debatable, perhaps a bare majority, more likely a large minority in the Smyrna Vilayet, which lay in an overwhelmingly Turkish Anatolia. The result was an attempt to alter the imbalance of populations by genocide, and the counter determination of Nationalists to erase the Greeks, a feeling which produced bitter warfare in Asia Minor for the next two years until the Kemalists took Smyrna in 1922 and settled the problem by burning down the Greek quater..` [3] By C. J. Lowe, M. L Dockrill Published 2002 Routledge ISBN 0415265975--laertes d 23:04, 8 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

Niko if you dont want to discuss and reply to the comments made in this article, then why are you so fanatically revert the article? I happen to wait for an answer from you..--laertes d 10:52, 9 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

Note the word "attempted" you quoted, which is very different from the words "perpetrated", "committed" etc that apply to the Turkish atrocities. Also note the numbers above for comparison (15 vs 350 thousand). Finally, Rummel relies on two methods for his estimations: First, he adds up all the documented massacres as they appear in academic sources, and second, he calculates the population deficit of the remaining Greeks versus the Greeks that existed before. The numbers absolutely coincide. NikoSilver 17:10, 10 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

Note also (for the other related articles) that the "Turks burnt down Smyrna" and the "determination of Nationalists to erase the Greeks". NikoSilver 17:10, 10 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

Finally, you are not welcome to discuss public edit disputes privately in my talkpage, especially with your continuing insulting tone. NikoSilver 17:10, 10 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

Sigh.., as i keep saying i already quoted you enough sources, please stop your immature behavior of changing the sourced content to something that the sources actually dont say..Believe me I really dont want to waste more time in here, make sure you just dont change the sources the way you want..--laertes d 10:11, 11 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

Can editors tell me whether Tatz, Rummel, or Jacob specifically use the term "Pontic Greek Genocide" since they are being used to source this as a verifiable term? I know for a fact Rummel does not use term. If it is a case of these authors saying there was a "greek genocide" or "genocide of greeks" it still does not source the title of this article which the sources are apparently being used for. To me this is only one example of the OR running through this article. Other sections such as "Reasons for limited recognition" are purely original research, using a mish mash of sources to prove an editors own position. This is a problem I've highlighted from the very beginning, and something obvious to any editor with a basic knowledge of wiki policy. --A.Garnet 10:26, 31 October 2007 (UTC)Reply

Don't be ridiculous. The term is used specifically in relation to the subject of this article; the notion that it means anything else is your original research. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 10:54, 31 October 2007 (UTC)Reply

I point you to a discussion we had on this preivously. To quote Fut. "The wording of the lead sentence is very specifically about the question to what extent people use that "controversial term" for it. So, if it is indeed the case that those particular authors don't use it (as Domitius seems to agree), then those refs shouldn't be at that place. I'm sure the positions of those authors can be adequately covered elsewhere.".

So according to your position Kekrops, I can create an article called "Turkish genocide of Asia Minor" and cite Rummel who uses the term "Greek genocide" for the conduct of Greek soldiers. That is A + B = C = Original reserach. If the present title is academically verifiable and part of the mainstream literature, then there should be no problem finding a source that does spefically use that term right? --A.Garnet 11:08, 31 October 2007 (UTC)Reply

Tatz refers very specifically to Turkey's "genocide of the Armenians, Assyrians and Pontian Greeks", Rummel refers to a democide or genocide against the Greeks, and Jacobs includes the fate of the Pontians in a comparative study of genocide. If you have a suggestion for the name of the article that better sums up the subject they are referring to, you're more than welcome to make it. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 11:34, 31 October 2007 (UTC)Reply

We shouldnt have to sum up or interpret anything. Those lead references are being specifically used to prove the common usage of the term "Pontic Gree Genocide", therefore those sources should be explicit in their use of this term to prove it is a commonly held academic position. If this were the case then you would have no such problem doing this. For example go to amazon.com and type "Armenian Genocide", that gives you 951 book results which prove the term is verifiable among literature. Now type "Pontic Greek Genocide", result: "Your search ""Pontian Greek Genocide"" did not match any products".

It is has always been very clear that the current title is not in common usage, that is why no sources can be found explicitingly supporting this articles thesis. That is why it rests on interpretation and original research. Also, about Rummel, if you look at the table where he uses the term genocide for Greeks, most references are for the West of Turkey in Marmara and Smyrna etc. The only reference to Black Sea is for those who were deported, there is no mention of Black Sea Greeks being killed as part of his use for that term, so this proves how original research is being used to reach conclusions not supported by those authors. --A.Garnet 11:54, 31 October 2007 (UTC)Reply

Your arguments are getting increasingly desperate; they all refer to a genocide committed by the Turks against the Greeks. Would you prefer Tatz's Genocide of the Pontian Greeks? That's fine, too. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 12:46, 31 October 2007 (UTC)Reply

I think my arguments are quite clear and logical, it is your reasoning to ignore them that is getting more desparate. Those opening references are there specifically to prove common usage of that term, therefore is it asking too much that those sources refer explicitly to that term alone? I mean if I was an editor on the Armenian genocide article (of which your fond of claiming similarities), then I'd have no problem sourcing that title, heck I'd have 950 books at my disposal which use that term explicitly. As for your suggestion, no, we dont base articles on scraps of sentences which say what we want to hear. We base them on a large body of academic work - monographs, journals, encylopedias etc - which confirm a common position.

Face it, this article is a good candidate for deletion. It violates Undue weight, npov, original research and personal synthesis. There is not even an article to be found here, where is narrative for the events? There is a background and a casualty count and nothing in between. The whole thing is an exercise in pov pushing, from top to bottom. I'm not saying there isnt an article to be made on what the Pontians experienced, just not in this ugly form. If you want my suggestion it is this, rename the article to something general such as Pontian casualties of World War I, or Deportation of Pontians in the Ottoman Empire or Expulsion of Pontians from the Black Sea that way you do not restrict yourself to pushing one pov (a genocide one) throughout the article, but can actually focus on what happened to the Pontians --A.Garnet 13:16, 31 October 2007 (UTC)Reply

Face it, your burning desire to uphold the sanctity of Article 301 will remain a mere fantasy, because we have enough sources that use the term genocide in reference to the plight of the Pontians to justify the article's current title. Your "argument" that we cannot call it that because the words in the sources cited are not used in that exact sequence - but refer to the exact same thing - is a rather pathetic attempt at sophistry, frankly. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 13:52, 31 October 2007 (UTC)Reply

Its like talking to a brick wall. If your going to source a TERM "Pontian Greek Genocide" (with a capital G no less), then those sources should refer to PGG...That is not sophistry, its simply wiki policy. --A.Garnet 14:36, 31 October 2007 (UTC)Reply

Let me get this straight, once and for all. In your opinion, does Tatz's "genocide... of the Pontian Greeks" have a different meaning from Pontic Greek Genocide? ·ΚέκρωΨ· 14:43, 31 October 2007 (UTC)Reply

Let me ask you, does "the Turks did not seek to exterminate the Greeks, as the previous regime had done to the Armenians" (Valentino) and "Under these conditions, genocide of the Ottoman Greeks was simply not a viable option" (Midlarsky) or "these deportations were on a relatively small scale and do not appear to have been designed to end in their victims' deaths" (Mazower) mean Pontic Greek Genocide? There is clearly no academic consensus for the use of this title. --A.Garnet 14:54, 31 October 2007 (UTC)Reply

What utter hypocrisy. You denounce the sources you dislike for not referring verbatim to a Pontic Greek Genocide, but happily parrot passages that don't refer specifically to the Pontians at all. I've had enough for one evening. Cheers. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 15:03, 31 October 2007 (UTC)Reply

1. (No Nikosilver, youre not entitled to change the sourced content the way you want, neither Toynbee nor Akcam use the word `limited`.)

   Rummel uses that word, and it is "limited" by all means of reason when you compare numbers like 15,000 vs 350,000. I had added Rummel as a source right next to it, if you noticed. NikoSilver 12:28, 11 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

He might have used that word but definitely that word isnt used by Toynbee and Akcam, even more definitely it wasnt used by that quotation i presented above which claims Greece attemted to make a `genocide`..Several sources say that there is nothing limited about it..I dont use Justin Mccarhty in the armenian genocide article, nor even in that article, so you rather refrain from using rummel as an ultimate source..--laertes d 12:36, 11 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

1. (Background - Again, do not add something that the authors do not use..)

   Same here. NikoSilver 12:28, 11 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

2. (→Academic views - im still not sure about the accuracy of the quote, as it was added by Alexiuscomnenus at the time, but at least say who made such a claim..)

   Sorry, but this attempt for remedy, actually puts all the following words in Ferguson's mouth, which isn't so. I choose to mention who said what only below in the refs, and I apply this to everyone. The other solution would be to add all the names of all the authors next to each word, but I'm afraid that it would really be unreadable. Feel free to try this. NikoSilver 12:28, 11 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

I will, i think that is the correct way doing it, many of these citations are not reliable..--laertes d 12:39, 11 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

1. (lets make it sure that who says what, instead of presenting them as a majority point of view..Still thats is a hell of a confusion, who says what for which exactperiod isunclear):

   This adds more to the confusion. If your concern is the majority vs minority point of view, then please add sources to enhance what now appears to you as a majority view presented like a minority one. There sure isn't any intent to do so. "Primary sources" is an accurate description, and I would argue that it helps the Turkish position more than a mere reference to their names (which says less if the reader doesn't know them in my view). NikoSilver 12:28, 11 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

If primay source is cming someone like George Horton, surely we have to mention qho is saying it..--laertes d 12:39, 11 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

How many do you think know him by name? Indeed "primary sources" is a much better description for your purpose I believe. NikoSilver 13:17, 11 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

A final comment: I am really tired with your repeated insults ( [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] ), and I am seeking the foreseen remedies. NikoSilver 12:28, 11 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

i cant see any insult at all, if somebody just bother to read what you have been doing in several articles for a long period of time..And believe i am tired of people like you, and i still dont get how such a blatant, ugly nationalist POV pushing rhetoric demonstrated by you for such long period of time can still be tolerated...--laertes d 12:36, 11 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

The exact problem with your behavior is that you can't see the insults. NikoSilver 13:17, 11 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

niko, just stick to the dispue in hand, and if you have anything relevant to say, say it, or do not revert the article, or do not put your own ideas in it..Clear?--laertes d 13:20, 11 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

The relevant stuff is right above, along with a response to your latest aphorism. Your incivility is a separate issue. NikoSilver 13:41, 11 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

I have again placed the distinct events of western Anatolia outside the lead and reworded the text to avoid some of Laertes's more inane repetition regarding the atrocities. As for the word "limited", my inclination is to avoid it if it isn't used in the source. ·ΚέκρωΨ· 14:56, 12 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

There has to be a quantitative comparison of the number of Turks killed in atrocities vs that of Greeks. If "limited" is not the word to describe a difference of 1/23d (i.e. about 4%), then I can accept any kind of rewording that does so, but I will not accept equal terms for things that are simply unequal. NikoSilver 20:18, 12 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

Kekrops says see the talk page, but I can't seem to find the rationale for his edit. It might be time to archive. Also to avoid WP:SYN, Niko, we should maybe split that sentence, if you do not want to insist on violating WP:SYN and WP:NPOV Deniz^T_C 02:53, 14 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

No problem with that, but I think it would give even more emphasis. I am open to suggestions. NikoSilver 13:02, 14 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

An attribution tag was requested on the "reasons of limited recognition" section. In my view, the attribution is right below, in the whole section. It is attributed to Constantine Fotiades, and one of the "excuses" he uses concurs with a (very descriptive IMO) comment by Levene. Denizz, can you please explain if there is an additional reason why the tag is needed? NikoSilver 13:09, 14 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

Why is the following passage being used in this article?:

The Turks extended their policy of exterminating the Christians of the [Ottoman Empire] to the Armenians, Greeks, Syrians, and Lebanese.... According to an Associated Press report, of 500,000 Greeks deported from Thrace, in Asia Minor, an estimated 250,000, or half, died of disease and torture. Starting in 1910, the Ottoman Turks made about one million Greeks homeless and deported hundreds of thousands; as many as 300,000 Greeks died of hunger, disease, and the cold as a result. In the 1920s, the Turkish nationalists massacred about 200,000 more Christians, mostly Greeks, in cities such as Smyrna. Greek men became victims of murder, torture, and starvation; Greek women suffered all this and also became slaves in Muslim households; Greek children wandered the streets as orphans ‘‘half-naked and begging for bread’’; and millions of dollars’ worth of Greek property passed into Muslim hands

Can anyone tell me where it a)mentions Pontians or Pontus or b)a genocide of Pontian Greeks? Are we going to paste is any large passages which allude to a massacre of Greeks, even if they dont refer to Pontians? Just in case you forgot what the intro of the article says, it states "Pontic Greek Genocide[2][3][4][5][6][7] is a controversial term used to refer to the fate of Pontic Greeks during and in the aftermath of World War I." Can anyone give a justification for it? --A.Garnet 12:40, 15 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

My interpretation would be that those that "started in 1910" would be the Pontic Greeks in question. For the rest, I think it gives a pretty good idea of the background. I mean, if we're gonna list the estimate of 15,000 Turkish civilian casualties as background info, then the info on the Thracian, and Smyrnan Greeks is much more relative. NikoSilver 13:58, 15 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

Well the beauty of mainstream academic positions is that interpretation is not necessary. An abundance of sources should allow you to pick the most explicit sources which support your position. In this case, Travis could be referring to the Aegean Greeks who were deported in the run up, and after, the Balkan wars of 1912. For the sake of this vague sentence, I dont think the block quote provides any additional value to the article, it should be removed. --A.Garnet (talk) 19:15, 17 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

Aegean or whatever, they'd still be more relevant than the 15,000 Turks (you do not choose to argue about). And what's with the "just Pontians" argument again? Is this serious? NikoSilver 19:49, 17 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

Ok, so you agree it could basically mean anything. As for what you call "just Pontians" argument, that is not my argument my friend, it is the thesis of this article, that what Pontians endured is recognised as a genocide (the intro again: "a controversial term used to refer to the fate of Pontic Greeks during and in the aftermath of World War I") except the majority of quotes refer haphazardly to Smyrnans, Aegeans and Thracian Greeks, there is scant mention here for Pontian Greeks. If you cannot find sources which specifically refer to Pontians in the context of a genocide, not what you think constitues genocide (that would be OR), then do not put it in. It violates, WP:OR, WP:SYN and so forth. Once again, this block quote should be deleted, it is irrelevant. With regards to the sentence about Turks, I agree, it is OR, but no less than rest of the statements being made in this article, when you realise this you will realise the article needs to be blanked and start from scratch. But I doubt that day will come soon, unless of course you want to seriously discuss resolving this dispute... --A.Garnet (talk) 21:00, 17 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

Also why was Levene reinserted as an intro reference, didnt we agree he was not explicit enough? --A.Garnet 12:42, 15 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

Yes. We are not adding this as an explicit or non-explicit justification. We are adding it as a reference which very much relates with that term. The reader will judge how explicit or non explicit that is, if they want to read more. I presume you agree that the number of references next to a term is not an index for veracity. It always depends on their actual content, its interpretation, and its reliability. My view is that Levene's most successful comment is the one about "historians, perhaps concerned not to magnify the events in comparison to those of 1915". NikoSilver 13:58, 15 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

Look, read the large arguments above with Kekrops. If your going to source the term "Pontian Greek Genocide", and state that it is a TERM used to refer to Pontians, then at lest used academics who explicility use that term. Levene does not, he does not even use the term genocide. Myself, Fut. and Francis all argued for this and since it was added without discussion I'm going to revert it. --A.Garnet (talk) 19:15, 17 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

I said, I am not "sourcing" the term "Pontian Greek Genocide" with it. Levene has done an excellent job in highlighting its use, or lack of it, and not including him next to the term is an omission IMO. NikoSilver 19:49, 17 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

Well then excuse my bluntess, but what the heck is it doing there then? Those references are specifically there to show use of the term, if there is no use of the term, then the reference should not be there. Since Levenes views which you consider essential are at the bottom, there is zilch reason for his reference in the intro. --A.Garnet (talk) 21:00, 17 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

• How many Pontic Greeks were accounted in Ottoman census of early 20th century;How many came to Greece through population exchange;What's the difference in numbers;That's the answer to all revisionists.Enough is enough.Ottomans did it to Armenians to Assyrians.Someone has to see what Kurds are going through the last 80 years to understand how credible is the ""virgin Mary" aka ultra-innocent picture of Turks you are trying to pass.You did it and the biggest proof is that you continue to do it as we speak. Eagle of Pontus (talk) 18:13, 19 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

I am astonished as to what is going on here- this is absolute editing chaos. You all need to calm down and get down off of your grandstands and stop this edit warring post haste. These are my points from what I have seen:

• This article ahould not be a candidate for deletion- there is enough verifiable information on this belief that it does deserve its own place here.
• The references presented are generally balanced and are not all that bad. I have no problem with the sources for the most part.
• Levene is a bad source because if you are going to link to it, it should be available to all and not by subscription only. I think he should be removed until you find a source that can be verified.
• This article, despite good sources, is full of POV problems, a lot of which can be solved if no more edit warring takes place. The article reads like a propaganda pamphlet, and that should not be so. We can do better.
• Take the attitudes and the personal enmity and get rid of them... these events happened, no matter what you call them, and the way they happened is merely interpretation- not by us, but by academics who are unbiased. Monsieurdl (talk) 19:16, 20 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

Monsieurdl, what I said was the article is a good candidate for deletion in its current state, which is why I said "I'm not saying there isn't an article to be made on what the Pontians experienced, just not in this ugly form." No one disagrees that events happened, no is trying to suppress or hide material - despite the frequent insults I receive of being a "Turkish denialist" and my "burning desire to uphold article 301" (I'm not a Turkish citizen btw). Where the disagreement lies is how to represent these events in the most encyclopedic fashion possible. The route taken by Greek editors is essentially to put whatever happened to the Pontians (and to be honest, from this article I still don't know what happened to them) on a par with the Armenian genocide. This position is recognized only by one country, Greece (the reference for Cyprus still hasn't been made clear), but most importantly lacks any coverage in mainstream academia. No journal articles, no monographs, no encyclopedic articles are dedicated to these events. You simply cannot equate the academic work behind the Armenian genocide article which lends credence to that thesis with this article.

To have one or two authors use the term genocide in a few sentences, or ethnic cleansing, or massacres or atrocities in relation to Greeks (of which few explicitly refer to Pontians) does not automatically mean that this is evidence of a large body of academic work in favour of calling these events a genocide or the Pontic Greek Genocide or whatever. Consider for example an eminent historian like Mazower in the London review of books who states the fate of the Greeks of the Ottoman Empire was not the same as the Armenians (i.e. no genocide). Now how are these views being accommodated under the current title and current article which simple states the position of the Greek government and few non-descript authors as fact? Articles should not be based on minority views, they should not give undue weight to these views and they should not synthesise varying sources into a new thesis. These are Wiki policies which i've tried to explain fail in this article. In return, I've witnessed the arrogance of editors who rely on reverting in groups to push their view and rather than counter the arguments I raise, instead label me a "denialist" and what not. I stand by my view, the title needs to change, the article needs to be rewritten, I've more than justified this position and would not support it unless I had good reason to do so. --A.Garnet (talk) 20:02, 20 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

I see your points, and I have stated how I feel after perusing the state of the article and the discussion. It doesn't help to go on in this manner by edit warring- taking a break and calling for help from others is the right thing to do. I can see this article badly needs more reviews from third parties, and I am here to help. The language is indeed a problem within the article, and like I said, we can do better. Calling each other names is unacceptable behavior in any case, and it is not our job to label others as deniers and such. We are not interpreters, we are supposed to be historians with high standards of performance. Monsieurdl (talk) 20:19, 20 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

I and User:Francis Tyers have the Levene text; if anyone is interested for verification, e-mail me. I think he is the best source in terms of content, and in terms of careful language. NikoSilver 22:19, 21 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

R.J. Rummel does not mention Pontic Greeks in his calculation chart, and does not differentiate between them and the rest of the Anatolian Greeks. Any mention of Turkish massacres are not to go beyond the scope of the region of Pontus- anything beyond that makes this a general article on Anatolian Greek genocide, which it is not. Please stick with Pontus only references. Monsieurdl (talk) 20:49, 20 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

To be fair, Rummel does mention "Black Sea coast" deaths of 10,000, which would cover Pontus, but not all of it was Pontus. It says it here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Monsieurdl (talk • contribs) 20:54, 20 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

Use ref #19: Merrill D. Peterson, Starving Armenians: America and the Armenian Genocide, 1915-1930 and After. Or ref#20 G.K. Valavanis, "Contemporary General History of Pontos" 1925, 1st Edition. In general, I must note that most academics I've seen don't make a distinction between Pontic and non-Pontic Greeks, because they are both ...Greeks. (BTW, I find it very silly that the Greek government restricts the Greek deaths to just Pontians, when relatively few academics do so, and when the numbers are logically less). I think we should note in the article that most academics don't make such distinction (or would it be WP:OR?) NikoSilver 22:50, 21 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

Well if few academics refer to just Pontians, that that works against the case for even having the article separate. That's why it is vitally important that we find some that are specific to validate everything- even if it refers to the Black Sea, Trabzon, etc. Statistics don't have to be mentioned if they are not present- mere passages refering to it in a general sense would suffice. Monsieurdl (talk) 18:32, 22 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

If the term is controversial to begin with (as the first sentence suggests), then why is the controversial term used as the title, rather than as an alternative name? Why not change the title to something like:

"XXXXXX" [Whatever a more neutral name is that has been used in other sources] was a mass murder perpetrated against the Pontic Greeks by the Young Turk Administration during and immediately after World War I. Many historians[linked to sources for] in retrospect now refer to this event as the Pontic Greek Genocide; however, this term is still very controversial[linked to sources against]. The title "Pontic Greek Genocide" has no standing in any nation other than Greece and is not recognized by the United Nations, the UN Security Council, or the European Union. The Turkish government opposes the inclusion of the word "genocide" to describe the events that took place and has disagreed with the number of Pontic Greeks that died.

...Or something else that is more suitable. I think I made my point. The title itself shouldn't be controversial. Is this internationally recognized as a genocide like the Armenian Genocide and the Holocaust? I do not believe it is. When I type Pontic Greek Genocide into google, I only get Greek websites. It appears the Greeks are clearly the ones with the bias in this article. - 68.43.58.42 01:13, 4 December 2007 (UTC)Reply

The term seems to be well sourced -- there are 6 (SIX) sources quoted there, that's what matters here on Wikipedia. "The Turkish government opposes the inclusion of the word "genocide" to describe the events that took place" that is quite irrelevant. Also, there's no need to start an argumentation about what the "truth" is, Wikipedia is not about truth, it's about providing referenced info from reliable sources, since the 6 sources seem to be reliable I don't see what you can do about it. Unless you can prove that the sources don't follow WP:RS policy and have them eliminated... or if you can bring more reliable sources (not T. government) that claim that "genocide" is not an appropriate term in this case. -- AdrianTM 06:44, 4 December 2007 (UTC)Reply

No international body accepts the term, including the United Nations. I think that makes the term genocide POV. The only nation that recognizes it is Greece (and Cyprus). Several of the academics quoted are Greeks themselves (since the nation of Greece is the only nation that accepts the term, one has to question the partisanship of Greek scholars). The term is not found in any major encyclopedia... Wikipedia is INTENDED to be an encyclopedia, and therefore one has to question the validity of this article as a whole. Calling the Pontic Greek Genocide a Genocide is intended to evoke sympathy for Greeks, who were perpetrating War Crimes against the Turks themselves. No one calls the extermination of entire Turkish cities during the Greco-Turkish War to be "genocidal," even though it had the same effect as this event. It is a blatant POV term and would be similar to declaring the bombings of Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki and Tokyo to be "genocides." We all know that that would be nonsense, even if 2-3 million people were displaced and at least half a million were killed in those 4 bombings alone. The fact that this source is missing from encyclopedias, from textbooks, it is not acknowledged by the international community, and it has almost no representation online other than through Greek websites, one really has to question whether or not this article can legitimately be called a genocide. An unencyclopedic term has no place in an online encyclopedia (wiki). -68.43.58.42 (talk) 21:17, 8 December 2007 (UTC)Reply

If you feel that way, then bring this article to Articles for Deletion. Otherwise, the article is staying and being edited properly with good sources. That's how it has always been done here :) Monsieurdl (talk) 21:36, 8 December 2007 (UTC)Reply

I fail to see why Turks are so adamant against the word "genocide" but they gladly accept "massacre" (slaughter: the savage and excessive killing of many people), they probably think that massacre means less planning than genocide, and this for some strange reasons is "better". -- AdrianTM (talk) 22:22, 8 December 2007 (UTC)Reply

Funny, because I'm not Turkish? I acknowledge the Armenian Genocide. This article seems like a silly way to elevate what occurred to the Greeks to the level of what occurred to the Armenians and that's nonsense. If the term is not located in any encyclopedia, then it's an unecyclopedic term. If the "genocide" really occurred, why does not a single major international body on PLANET EARTH acknowledge it? Even the EU doesn't acknowledge it! This is blatant POV and Greek chauvinism. It would be equivalent to Turks creating an article on cities that the Greek forces exterminated during the Greco-Turkish Wars and label those are "Genocides." Elevating such events to the level of things like the Holocaust or Armenian genocide in which millions were killed systematically is nonsense. -68.43.58.42 (talk) 05:11, 12 December 2007 (UTC)Reply

I didn't know that there's a quantitative requirement... where do you draw the line? 1,000,000... 500,000... 300,000 deaths? Please provide a quote that 300,000 to 360,000 victims are not enough to qualify as "genocide". No source? please count, there are 6 (six) sources listed in the article that use that word. -- AdrianTM (talk) 07:40, 12 December 2007 (UTC)Reply

More people died in the combined Tokyo, Nagasaki and Hiroshima bombings. Was it genocidal? If something is not internationally recognized or included in any modern encyclopedia, then how can this possibly be encyclopedic? Finding sources is great, but you can't point to any international body or any encyclopedia that includes this, so the entire article is fundamentally questionable, hence why the it will never be neutral if a word like genocide is included. -68.43.58.42 (talk) 18:53, 12 December 2007 (UTC)Reply

Wikipedia is not supposed to follow other encyclopedias or to follow official positions, the main issue is to present info from reliable sources and this seems to me is respected here, I'm not a main editor of this page, I think I just reverted some vandals this is how it came to be on my watch list but since I see 6 sources that support that I don't find this discussion very persuasive. Please raise the issue in other place, bring this article to Articles for Deletion -- somebody else gave you this advice before... -- AdrianTM (talk) 19:19, 12 December 2007 (UTC)Reply

The entire premise of this article is suspect. However, before concluding either way, would one of the authors of this article please address the following questions.

1. Can someone please explain why the man who was Greece's Prime Minister during the events alleged nominated the President of the Republic of Turkey for the Nobel Peace prize some 10-15 years later? That would be like Israel's first President nominating Hitler for the Nobel Peace Prize. This article's premise is inexplicably at odds with the actions undertaken by those who were officials of Greece's government during the period discussed and makes no sense whatsoever.

Some of the citations also raise questions:

2. This article cites Niall Ferguson for the assertion that "According to a German military attaché, the Ottoman Turkish minister of war Ismail Enver had declared in October 1915 that he wanted to 'solve the Greek problem during the war... in the same way he believe[d] he solved the Armenian problem.'" However, if one looks at this assertion in Ferguson's book, Ferguson makes this statement without citing anything. Ferguson then immediately states that the Greeks were more likely a 5th Column during WWI than Armenians, which argues against concluding a genocide occurred. The citation to this reference is misleading. Moreover, the accuracy of Ferguson's narration of history is suspect. Within the same chapter, Ferguson attributes the existence of the nationalist movement solely to the Greek invasion of Izmir. This is factually incorrect and counter to all archival documents from the time. Ferguson's bio at Wiki even writes that Ferguson's views are highly controversial and not universally accepted and that he is considered a "revisionist" historian. As I understand it, Wiki is not here to revise history. As such, this seems to be an inappropriate reference.

3. This article also cites Colin Tatz, who has degrees in political science and earned his Ph.D. from the Australian National University, for work on the policies and practices of Aboriginal administration in the Northern Territory and Queensland. The Tatz publication cited is an opinion piece, it is not a scholarly work resulting from historical research. Can someone explain why an opinion piece is an appropriate source of citation for this article?

4. RJ Rummel is also cited as a source, but he too is a political scientist, not a historian. He conducts demographic studies and admits that "There are therefore many items in my references that no self-respecting scholar would list normally. I include them because I use their estimates and not because I believe them objective or of high quality." This Wiki article is not about population studies. It is asserting a genocide was committed. Thus, this wiki article should reference scholarly works by historians that have concluded a genocide occurred based on archival research. This article should not be referencing political scientists, revisionist historians, or those conducting demographic studies who rely on references no "self-respecting scholar" would use.

5. This article also cites numerous legislative resolutions, e.g., items 34-39. Can someone explain why political activity is deemed reliable evidence of facts? We all know that legislative bodies in the American south passed Jim Crow laws (which are much more potent than resolutions) establishing that African Americans were inferior and not entitled to equal treatment, yet we now know that was wrong. We also know that politicians are motivated by constituencies and not historical accuracy, and that the Greek and Armenian constituencies in the U.S. are hugely larger than those of Turks. References to legislative resolutions like these smacks of bullying less populous ethnic groups by those that are more populous, as legislatures are swayed by votes, not facts. Hence, references like these to resolutions are point of view as they provide no evidence of historical accuracy.

6. What evidence from historical archives, or scholarly works that reference historical archives, has been cited to support the premise that there was a genocide committed against Greeks?

Thank you in advance for your responses. Pebblicious (talk) 21:44, 9 December 2007 (UTC)Reply

• 1)Venizelos was a pragmatist politician and his move was like to solidify the peace between the countries.After all he agreed to population transfer just for the shake of realpolitic.Greeks from mainland who experienced the arrival of 1,5 million refugees after 1922 didn't see their struggle for recognition of the genocide other than an obstacle for good relations between the countries just after the Greek elit had doubled the size of the country(Balkan wars etc) and now wanted to harvest the goods.And yes there used to be great deal of hatred between refugees and mainlanders up until WW2.

• 6)According to Ottoman archives there were close to 700,000 Christian Rums(Greeks) in Pontus and less than half of that number made it to Greece after the population exchange.Just do the maths.Anyway there is a ton of memoirs from ambassadors Humanitarian volunteers in the region so on.

Eagle of Pontus (talk) 14:08, 16 December 2007 (UTC)Reply

The second image describing 800,000 Armenians being murdered by the Turks seems somewhat tangential to an article on this event. The Armenian Genocide, the Assyrian Genocide and this event are not universally acknowledged as pieces of one larger genocide. The image of Armenians being killed, however, reinforces that point of view. Shouldn't an image on Armenians being killed be kept in an article on the Armenian Genocide, not the Greek one? I thought I would come here before deleting anything. -Rosywounds (talk) 20:54, 3 January 2008 (UTC)Reply

That image has been around for some time and the same question been in my mind since.--Doktor Gonzo 01:45, 4 January 2008 (UTC)Reply

The POV tag was removed without discussion. I re-added it, since this dispute has obviously not been resolved (nor was the removal ever discussed) and the article is susceptible to POV pushing. Moreover, the title of the article immediately pushes for a specific POV (that the event is worthy of being called a "genocide"). If the article refers to the event throughout as a "genocide" even though the event is not officially recognized internationally, then the article is clearly pushing for that POV. The Greeks themselves did not even refer to this event as a genocide until the 1990s. Moreover, this is a sensitive topic and it should be known that this page is and has been susceptible to bias. I'd be willing to discuss this more thoroughly.-Rosywounds (talk) 06:27, 4 January 2008 (UTC)Reply

Why is the tag necessary? It is absent in both Armenian Genocide and Assyrian Genocide, despite those terms being equally controversial in Turkey. After the recognition of the genocide by the IAGS, the insistence on calling it a "controversial term" and retaining the tag is in itself POV. ·ΚέκρωΨ· (talk) 06:50, 4 January 2008 (UTC)Reply

Major works of history does not call the events as a genocide, thats the the basic point which separates it from the armenian genocide article.Thus tag is necessary.--88.242.196.76 (talk) 12:39, 4 January 2008 (UTC)Reply