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Line 426: :::::::The iniquities of ISIL are a major topic in relation to the group. In relation to article content there have been what you have described to be surreptitious attempts to edit the article which have had the effect to remove critical content; There are currently attempts to declare in Wikipedia's voice that the group are (Islamic) caliphate despite several "facts": that the claimed authority of the group is extremely widely disputed; that they are widely regarded to be un-Islamic; that, when RS use the word caliphate in connection to this group, they typically qualify the use of the term and that other groups with similar but less extreme claims to Islam are fighting against them. Accurate heading descriptions in relation section content have been disputed. I think that various issues are being pushed in the article and that they are telling, IMO. :::::::Thanks for mentioning the point about other references in this article. I was interested to see a primary source text dating back to 2005 (in the goals section) in which the establishment of a caliphate is mentioned 6 times and state is mentioned (in the context of becoming one) is mentioned 4 times. There is also an interesting justification of slaughter amongst other things. The Shia are mentioned 19 times. Again I have to wonder whether the aim was to build a "caliphate" or destroy the Shia. What do you think? [[User:Gregkaye|GregKaye]] [[User talk:Gregkaye|<span style="color:Black"><big>✍</big>♪</span>]] 10:38, 23 December 2014 (UTC) {{collapse top|Refactoring muddle}} :::::::*(The big difference is that I never tell you what to think, Greg! Perhaps you don't realise you do this ... {{P|:)}}. That has been on our Talk pages, not here, and has not been in connection with challenged ''edits''. You must be careful not to misrepresent, though I believe (hope) this was accidental.) [[User:P-123|P-123]] ([[User talk:P-123|talk]]) 11:42, 23 December 2014 (UTC)▼ <small> Some major refactoring seems to have gone on here which makes nonsense of this part of the thread. My comment "I am a bad person to ask ..." was initially in direct response to the comment ending "What do you think?" My other comments have been moved about. [[User:P-123|P-123]] ([[User talk:P-123|talk]]) 18:58, 23 December 2014 (UTC) </small> ▲ :::::::::<small>''[Content originally placed within my edit [[User:P-123|P-123]] and moved as above. I have mentioned this a number of times and will delete content on the next occasion. [[User:Gregkaye|GregKaye]] [[User talk:Gregkaye|<span style="color:Black"><big>✍</big>♪</span>]] 16:39, 23 December 2014 (UTC)]''</small> ::::::::::[[User:P-123|P-123]] Again your [[WP:ASPERSIONS]] are misplaced here. Please cite instances in which I have told you what to think. Otherwise please stop badgering. You are welcome to edit on my talk page but please be ready to substantiate your claims. [[User:Gregkaye|GregKaye]] [[User talk:Gregkaye|<span style="color:Black"><big>✍</big>♪</span>]] 16:46, 23 December 2014 (UTC) ::::::::::*(Ah, diktats! My only wish is to stick to NPOV (as I understand it to be) and if it looks like being pro-ISIL I cannot help that. {{P|:(}}) [[User:P-123|P-123]] ([[User talk:P-123|talk]]) 11:17, 23 December 2014 (UTC) :::::::::<small>''[Content originally placed within my edit [[User:P-123|P-123]] and moved as above. I have mentioned this a number of times and will delete content on the next occasion. [[User:Gregkaye|GregKaye]] [[User talk:Gregkaye|<span style="color:Black"><big>✍</big>♪</span>]] 16:39, 23 December 2014 (UTC)]''</small> {{collapse bottom}} ::::::::[[User:Gregkaye|GregKaye]]: I am a bad person to ask as I don't know too much about it, but I would say the aim was to do both. It is alien to our way of thinking, but I can see how for groups that seem to think like ISIL do those goals would not be incompatible. (One of the big problems in understanding ISIL, I think, and much of the Middle East for that matter is that the mindset is so completely different from the Western one. Sorry, this is not a [[WP:FORUM]].) I am puzzled why that 2005 letter you refer to is cited in support of ISIL's caliphate/Islamic state dream, because I don't think it is from a member of ISIL (in a former incarnation) at all. I looked it up before and I think the person who wrote that letter, Abu Muhammad, is Ayman al-Zawahiri from al-Qaeda. That name is listed in the wiki article on him as one of his aliases. [[User:P-123|P-123]] ([[User talk:P-123|talk]]) 11:17, 23 December 2014 (UTC) | |||