Talk:LGBT rights in Poland - Wikipedia

Generally speaking, a very informative article but there are clearly biased moments with a colonial taste. This is just one example: "Nevertheless, in the 21st century, attitudes have become more accepting, in line with worldwide trends. In 2011, Anna Grodzka became the third transgender member of parliament in the world (...)" There is no trend if that was indeed the 3rd case in the whole world. If anything - Poland here should be considered a trendSETTER in that respect. If there is truly a trend to which the author refers (although it is not clear to what kind of trend the author refers) - the example provided is anything but illustrative. 91.231.45.1 (talk) 10:35, 12 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

"Worldwide trends" are demonstrably "more accepting" of the LGBT+ minorities in Western democracies, with same-sex marriage legal in 26 countries. Many more offer 'skim milk marriage' (cf Ruth Ginsburg) in the form of civil partnerships, and anti-discrimination laws that protect the LGBT+ citizens' right to employment, housing, education, healthcare and public accommodation. In that light, Anna Grodzka is an appropriate example of this trend, albeit in Poland where, as in Russia, there is rising animus against LGBT+ citizens.Chrisdevelop (talk) 20:07, 22 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

Before 1968 the worldwide trend was to ban homosexual relations. Poland didnt follow the trend. Poland doesnt need to follow the trend, what is important that Poland let people be themselves. --Cautious (talk) 20:50, 19 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

The notion that supposedly "municipalities declared themselves LGBT-free zones" is not excatly true. The idea of "LGBT-free zone" came from stickers included with one edition of an pro-PiS newspaper "Gazeta Polska" in June 2019. The "LGBT-free zones" supposedly declared by some municipalities refer to two documents, which were accepted as resolutions by these municipalities: "The Charter of Family Rights" and "Resolution against the LGBT ideology". The first one focuses on praising "family values" and claims their importance for social policies. It doesn't even mention LGBT at all in any context. The "Resolution" does mention LGBT: it declares an opposition "to promotion of the ideology of the LGBT movement" and to "political corectness". However even this one does not contain any statements of creating an "LGBT-free zone" or any other statements which be in any way hostile to LGBT people. Both types of these resolutions were labelled as "LGBT-free zones declarations" by media and some politicians, but it should be notet that it doesn't really correspond to their actual text. The actual resolutions - in Polish - can be found under this link: "Atlas nienawiści" ("Atlas of hate")

--Monsieur empereur (talk) 10:36, 31 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

@Monsieur empereur: Thanks for the info. We generally follow what WP:RS state, in this case media and scholars. Many of them do use the phrase "LGBT-free zone", and in a recent discussion some evidence have presented that that term is also used in Polish-language media.[1] So that's what we have. Other than that, AFAIC we can certainly include some of the text of these declarations as well as their background, as long as RS are provided for that purpose. François Robere (talk) 10:47, 31 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

Please also refer to the satellite article discussion at Talk:LGBT_ideology-free_zone regarding name change and possible merger with this article. Chrisdevelop (talk) 12:22, 31 July 2020 (UTC)Reply

Information about legal homosexuality in former Poland is at least partially false. Polish legal acts from the times of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth didn't mention homosexuality, but the Church law was in force and homosexuality was prohibited. There are sources, but they are in Polish language. https://fakenews.pl/spoleczenstwo/polska-nigdy-nie-karala-za-homoseksualizm-sprawdzamy/ https://tytus.edu.pl/2018/10/08/mezolubnicy-i-samcoloznicy-co-wiemy-o-homoseksualistach-w-dawnej-polsce/ https://ciekawostkihistoryczne.pl/2020/07/27/polscy-homoseksualisci-spaleni-na-stosie/ Poland is often called państwo bez stosów (literally: a country without stakes), but some homosexuals in Poland were burnt in the stake. After the Commonwealth period, partitoners' laws prohibited homosexuality and independent Poland adopted this laws in 1918 and kept it until 1932. Therefore, homosexuality in Poland wasn't always legal. Ukamhu (talk) 16:03, 15 March 2021 (UTC)Reply

We much prefer scholarly sources to random online ones. Can you find some peer-reviewed published material that can support this (Google Scholar is a good place to start)? Also, if the source isn't in English, could you attach a short translation to English of the relevant parts? Thanks. François Robere (talk) 16:55, 15 March 2021 (UTC)Reply

Translation of an information about Sieradz Trial of 1633: The most famous case of a homosexual couple sentenced to death in Poland is the Sieradz Trial of 1633. At that time, the bakery master, Marcin Gołek, had secret relations with his student, Wojciech from Sromotka - in the summer outside the city walls, and in the winter in secluded urban nooks and crannies. According to Wojciech's testimony, his master enslaved him under the influence of alcohol and then paid for his silence. It all came to light when the baker revealed intimate secrets to the hostess. Young Wojciech then began to accuse Marcin in court, standing in the position of the prosecutor... But he quickly became an accomplice himself. Marcin, testifying in front of the judge, described how the student had persuaded him to engage in abusive relations. Wojciech was supposed to mate with animals on the pasture earlier. The latter, of course, denied everything, stubbornly claiming that the master was forcing him into intercourse. There was no conclusion, so the court sentenced both men as complicit in sodomy [obsolete word for homosexuality - my information]. They were burned at the stake on 9th of November, 1633. I searched for sources and there are sources, but I don't have access to them. Most sources of articles, which I presented, don't have PDF version and even if I would want to buy them, they aren't available in bookshops.

Ukamhu (talk) 18:19, 15 March 2021 (UTC)Reply

This seems like a good source, but I can't find a copy: Nastulczyk, T. and Oczko, P. (2012) Homoseksualność staropolska: przyczynek do badań. Kraków : Collegium Columbinum (Biblioteka Tradycji. Seria Druga, ISSN 1895-6076; nr 107), pp. 541, [1], XXVIII. François Robere (talk) 19:07, 15 March 2021 (UTC)Reply

The previous version suggested that LGBT people are discriminated against, which is not proved by any fact. Poland in general respects equality of all people, the problem is focusing on specific rights, which shall protect LGBT postulates. Let us start discussion on the first paragraph. The current version: "esbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender (LGBT) people in Poland face legal challenges not faced by non-LGBT residents. " is not summarising the content of the article. --Cautious (talk) 20:30, 19 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

All changes to Wikipedia articles must be supported by reliable sources. It is simply untrue that LGBT people enjoy equal rights in Poland, as you can tell by reading the sources already cited in the article. (t · c) buidhe 20:39, 19 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

Nope. The current summary doesnt correspond to the content of the article. The whole article shows that LGBT people have equal rights in Poland, but they lack the specific rights focues on LGBT issues. However, summary contradicts the article. Please explain, what exactly doest it mean that LGBT people face legal challanges??? Do they need to go to court to get approval for gay relationship???Cautious (talk) 20:45, 19 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

Do straight people need to file lawsuits in order to obtain Polish citizenship for their child?[2] Do they need to go to the European Court of Human Rights to obtain legal recognition of their relationship, lack of which leads to various unfavorable situations and obstacles for same-sex couples not encountered by opposite-sex couples?[3] ILGA-Europe notes that "it has become a practice of local authorities to attempt to ban equality marches", so we can add that straight people do not need to defend their freedom of assembly in court.[4] (t · c) buidhe 21:09, 19 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

The first point: children registration form is the same for all, there is no discrimination there. Everyone, who presents wrong form, where numbers of mothers or fathers is higher than 1, will be refused. The second point: every couple in Poland is protected according to Polish constitution as union of a woman and a man. If someone has other kind of couple, it is his private affair. Do you think Poland shall change its constitution to accommodate claims of Mr & Mr Smiths? If Mr & Mr fulfill the conditions given by Polish law, their couple will be recognized. If not it is their private problem. No discrimination here. Third point: any proof that all people, who want to take part in "equality march" are LGBT? Any proof that no straight person can have its demo banned? All your points gone. --Cautious (talk) 19:05, 22 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

You're free to believe there's no discrimination against LGBT in poland if you want. But the fact remains undeniable that LGBT people may encounter "legal challenges not faced by non-LGBT residents". The above situations would not have happened if the people involved were straight. (t · c) buidhe 19:19, 22 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

Point 1: legal challenge may be encountered by LGBT and non-LGBT people alike. Point 2: legal challenge may be encountered by LGBT and non-LGBT people alike. Point 3: legal challenge may be encountered by LGBT and non-LGBT people alike. You don't have a point. --Cautious (talk) 20:35, 22 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

You are forcing your POV. Your POV statement is that LGBT people face challenges, but non-LGBT not and I can have an example that denies your point on all accounts. However, you are not interested in honest debate. You have removed my source that denies your point #1--Cautious (talk) 20:54, 22 June 2021 (UTC)

This is WP:NOTAFORUM. If you want to make a contribution and have the sources to back it, then you're more than welcome. Otherwise, take it elsewhere. François Robere (talk) 19:40, 22 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

You are welcome. You might not be aware, but all Polish people have legal chellanges and they face problems in public offices. I gave a source about parents that cannot register their, because of some bogey reason. I contributed accordingly, because LGBT people DO NOT FACE CHALLANGES THAT ARE UNKNOWN TO NON-LGBT people. --Cautious (talk) 20:43, 22 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

Again, without a source that specifically discusses LGBT rights in Poland the article can't be changed. See WP:Original research. The article's first sentence is similar to other articles on LGBT rights in countries that aren't considered to fully protect them, such as LGBT rights in Romania or LGBT rights in Russia. (t · c) buidhe 21:02, 22 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

I do not care that you like the summary sentence to be the same in many countries if it goes against content of the article. This makes completly no sense to anybody. I have at hand examples that all people face challanges in Poland. Please stop forcing your POV, because it goes against wiki guidelines and start discussion in good faith. --Cautious (talk) 21:15, 22 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

I agree with buidhe and François Robere. This article looks to use reliable sources to indicate where the rights of LGBT Polish residents are unequally protected. I woudn't recommend continuing this line of discussion unless you find other reliable sources that contradict that point or have good reason to believe some of the existing sources are unreliable Firefangledfeathers (talk) 21:17, 22 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

Here you have a source ^[1]

It describes a non-LGBT parents that are not able to register a child, because of the formal reasons. This denies point 1 of the above example. I meant that this formulation is clearly wrong, as every person in Poland can face legal challenge. The fact that you are non-LGBT doesn't make you challenge free.--Cautious (talk) 21:29, 22 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

@Cautious: I advise you to drop the WP:STICK. Admins do not take homophobia lightly. tgeorgescu (talk) 21:35, 22 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

tgeorgescu this is your baseless claim, you tried to offend me for alleged homophobie and put no merit point. --Cautious (talk) 22:03, 22 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

The current formulation is wrong and is not supported by sources. --Cautious (talk) 22:03, 22 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

All people have legal challenges in Poland sounds too much like And you are lynching Negroes. Why? Both are deflections from recognizing the reality. tgeorgescu (talk) 23:17, 22 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

Sorry, do you understand English? It is claimed that one group face challenges while the other not. I just proved the claim is false. Any conclusions?--Cautious (talk) 07:37, 23 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

a single case is not the same as structural discrimination—blindlynx (talk) 00:12, 23 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

Sorry, but people with the documents that do not fit into agreed templates face in Poland systematic discrimation. By the way, there is no claim of systematic discrimination in the whole article. And you don't have any source that claims that. 3:0 --Cautious (talk) 07:37, 23 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

That is like the Confederates would have replied to Abraham Lincoln: No, no, no, there are no slaves. No, no, no, there is no slavery. tgeorgescu (talk) 10:31, 23 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

Nope, it is not. Any proof? --Cautious (talk) 12:12, 23 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

There are tonnes of sources in the article. A few random ones from the last year are: [5], [6], [7]. Please stop POV pushing—blindlynx (talk) 14:01, 23 June 2021 (UTC)Reply

"which was made in accordance with Poland's anti-discrimination laws," - WP:RSOPINION that was removed from the source.
Do we keep such opinion based on archival version of the source, or should we rather remove it?
I'm not very sure, but it doesn't seem right to keep removed content on basis of verifiability.
I couldn't find any guideline (If anyone has link to one, I would be thankful) that would inform what should we do if web source does remove part we cite. --Wiedzosław (talk) 11:34, 28 August 2021 (UTC)Reply

We currently say: Both male and female same-sex sexual activity were decriminalized in 1932, when the country introduced an equal age of consent for homosexuals and heterosexuals, which was set at 15.[3][4]

But it's a common understanding for those particularly interested in this subject that the Polish state had never got round to laws on same-sex sexual activity in the first place, so it couldn't have decriminalized something that wasn't criminal. AFAIHH the 1932 legislation on sexual activity specifically stated what was a crime and homosexuality was simply ignored as it was not included in that definition. The LGBT activist and subject specialist Robert Biedron puts it more precisely: "Since 1932, Polish law had not contained any penalties for homosexual relations"^[1] which is not the same as decriminalization per se. Prior to that legislation there was nothing in the law that said it was either legal or illegal, as far as I had understood. Out Polish gays such as Witold Gombrowicz and Karol Szymanowski were never arrested before 1932 and had high-profile careers. So for us to say this was the year of "decriminalization," please can we see any verifiable proof that it was criminal in the first place, in case anyone has it to hand? I have looked, and can't find any. - Chumchum7 (talk) 07:32, 18 November 2023 (UTC)Reply