Talk:Michael Servetus: Difference between revisions - Wikipedia

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:OK, so you acknowledge that Echeverría's theory is defective, because it does not give a reasonable explanation about "Villanueva"'s Jewish father, the invisible and unknown one, who must appear in the story simply to justify the birth in Tudela and the surname (another assumption, because Echeverría only shows data from one hundred years later to justify that there could be a "Villanueva" in Tudela), and then the poor guy conveniently disappears (Dead? Exiled? Who knows!) when the family has to be moved in the story to Villanueva de Sigena to comply with historical facts. So far, so good, right?. By the way, Echeverría does not explain either what was Catalina Conesa, originally from Barbastro in Aragon, doing in Tudela of Navarre, very far from home. And why a respectable man like Antón Serveto would marry a Jewish widow coming back to Aragon with a Jewish child (according to Spanish social context in early 16th century, of course. Let's remember that compulsory conversion or exile was in effect since 1492). Good! No explanations, who cares! Everything is alright for the sake of "perfect theory". (In the standard version of the story, it is easy to explain: Antón Serveto, an ''infanzón'' from the countryside, would be glad to marry a young maiden from a noble house like the Conesas, a Catalan aristocratic family with branches in Aragon, Valencia, and Murcia, to gain respectability and honors; the Conesas would also be honored by marrying one of their daughters to a respectable notary serving at a Royal Monastery). Let's go on. Finally all your defense comes to the retinue (Hebrew is a minor issue and it could be explained even if there were no conversos in the family, but having conversos in the matrilinear ancestors, then it is no longer a question). Let's examine the retinue. Echeverría based his hypothesis exclusively on a denial: Urriés and García de Padilla "did not know about" a Miguel Serveto alias Revés accompanying Quintana (p. 89). But notice that a denial is not an affirmation. They did not know about a Miguel de Villanueva either! They simply did not know who he was. But Echeverría himself acknowledges then that Servetus could be a "porter, officer, etc.", but would appear "not as Miguel Serveto alias Revés" but as "Miguel de Villanueva" and so Padilla and Urriés "would not be aware of who he was even if they did know him or even talk to him" (pp. 89-90). So, again, Echeverría transforms a non-event into an event. If there was no father, Echeverría invented a father in Tudela to justify the birth and surname. If there was no recognition, Echeverría assumed that the name was different. But <u>there is no name in the retinue</u>, neither Servetus nor Villanueva. There is no positive proof, but Echeverría does not care (and you do not care either), and out of ignorance from these two guys, he invents a "proof" that Servetus' name was different. But there is no such proof! It is an assumption, just one more. These two guys may have paid absolutely no attention to the young boy anyway, irrelevant as he was at the service of Quintana, who was the really important guy. And when Echeverría says that Servetus was not in his list of "Aragoneses", he forgets the fact that he could be in the list of Catalans, because Villanueva de Sigena, although within the kingdom of Aragon, ecclesiastically belonged to the diocese of Lérida, which depended on the arch-diocese of Tarragona, not Zaragoza! (BTW that's why, many years later, "Alphonsus Lyncurius" called himself "Tarraconensis" when he wrote his apology). So, not being in the list of Aragonians is no proof at all that Servetus was using a different name. It simply proves that he was not in that list. Again, minor data are conveniently manipulated to justify the "perfect theory". --[[User:Jdemarcos|Jdemarcos]] ([[User talk:Jdemarcos|talk]]) 12:01, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

::BTW, how does Echevarría justify this text: ''"E stato mandato qua in dieta una opra di 7 libri composta da un spagnolo aragonese chiamato Mihel Serveto alias Dereves sub titulo De erroribus Trinitatis... Il confesor de sua Maesta dice cognoscelo, huomo di 26 anni, de grandissimo ingegno, et era gran sophista."'' (Excerpt from letter by Gerónimo Aleandre, quoted in Barón, p. 460). The "confessor of his Majesty" is obviously Quintana. But, if "Michael Servetus" was a nickname used just for writing the book, and at the retinue he was called "Miguel de Villanueva", as Echeverría says, why did Quintana say that he knew him? He was not using that name at his service, and he was supposedly from Navarre not Aragon. Why could he recognize him so easily, while Padilla and Urriés failed? If you are the expert on Echeverría's wisdom, perhaps you can provide a satisfactory answer instead of the usual chatter and rambling. --[[User:Jdemarcos|Jdemarcos]] ([[User talk:Jdemarcos|talk]]) 12:28, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Delighted , Quintana misguides the inquisition to a diocese, Huesca, which has no information On michael de Villanueva, nor information in the Serveto family. He protects himself. If they find information on DE villanueva they would figure out he is very related to HIM. If he would have sent them to lerida he would have led em to the Serveto family,. if he woudl have led em to zaragoza, eh woudl have led em to DE Villanueva family. SO he wants them to find nothing. That is why he says what he says, evidently, quintana knows what goes on. But he lies. By the way you said a false statement Michael de Villanueva name is not in the RETINUE OF the CROW OF CASTILLE. that is what Gonzalez says. He does not haveto be there. Third. The hebrew eduaction, on Astrology, MAthematics, Geography is a RABBI education, guess where from. Urries is the lord for the things of Aragon, lol, he travels with michael for a long time and you expect him not to know people form Aragon, Good luck with it.

I said, speficif individual of hsi father does not matter. So just dont say bullshit.

You lie on de Villanieva in tudela. In the Manta the tudela, there are names from the XVI century, developed in the XVII. SO , a lie. And yes there are De Villanuevas.

Third, Anton was not INfanzon from birth, he starts signing as an Infanzon in 1529. Before he NEVER does it. SO another lie.

Exile and bad treatment of the Conversos in Aragon, of course. That is very posssibly why Michael left Anton, cause it was a hell to stay with him.

Lol your retinue and teh Catalans, yoy wish. nah, Gonzalez checked the dioceses of Lerida, he found Juan Serveto with graphical proof., Michael is not there, so , do not say again lies, or check the archives.

Alphonsus, lol again, that is a fan of Sevretus, even the name is faked. nevermind what your friend alcala says.

ANyway, De Marcos, enough, you can say all teh bullshit you want. We think differently. You have atheory based on letters of Calvin, and documents which were never issued after presentation of Indentity proofs!. Never. No document of those who u say. and again, Gonzalez has 2, inspected by teh highest organisms of France. yours were not inspected by nobody! cause they did not require information, nor in Geneva, nor letters, nor any kind of oppinion, like taraconensis , post morten. in the other hand, there are clear evidences he was not called taht, in the retinue, and quintana tries to hide his contact with him, cause the info of Micahel is registered ALWAYS, as De Villanueva, that is why he sais @ Serveto@, of course he knowshwat goes on, he stays with him, and he know what he writes, not like the other members, who just know his official name, De Villanueva.

Lol there is no official document where Michael is registered as Serveto Servetus, cause HE COULD NOT PRESENT DOCUMENTS, cause he had none!. He was eduacted in Tudela, and later possibly in Zaragoza, sorry but not in Barcelona, he never has Catalalisms. He does uses words from the ebro valley, which were not used in Sijena, but Zaragoza and.. curiously , another ebro valley, city, TUDELA.

You get annyed by it, well I do not care. You try to convince librarians we pay attention the same way to documents that are not inspected. You have a wrong idea of history. You can now write letters, have epopel talking of you, and u even can assure to be someone, you can sign, you can be in prison for several months. So what, does it proof who you are? no. It proofs who you are thet fact you get to be a spanish citizen, if you come from france and you asked for it, and you had to present documents, as in any procedure, and if you were one of the 17 who got it with that king, and even more if the countries were at war, even more inspections. And of course the same with the UNiversity of Paris. OFFICIAL, INSpected. you say " ah well those are french", LOl so what. So lets see, what is easier to falsify the most inspected documents, or to utter statemenst with no documents?. guess again. No documents were ever inspected. A pitty. Now you have many letters and bullshit, but legally, Michael is Michael de Villanueva, and never Serveto, in spain there is no data, at all, and the indications shows he was not called that , such as in the retinue, and in ALL THE Official documents that extis which required PROOFS of his identity, he is DE Villanueva, never Serveto. A name for danegrous works and for theological confrontations. Whether you like it or not. You rather defend a lie, a lie you were used to. bye. I will not debate with a person who calls himself a" religious faith scholar" which is ridiculous by teh way , and has no idea on notarial protocols, such like the 1504 falsification defended by the MSI, which was one of the most gross actions we knew of in Lomonosov Uni. So, no more replies, you are a COI, and you are in teh pic with your sources, you are in the board of trutseess of a dull institution that has tried to destroy half of the work of servetus, and defends ideas on patriotic reasonings. Even if Michael would rise from teh tomb would say " what the hell are you guys doing". For me calvinism. End of the debate. I have better things to do than to try to convince in a public media, dishonest people, evenm when i already proved their interests, their benefits, and their lies, online. Truth is the daughter of Time, not of authority. and MSI has shown it is not an authority in anything. But it hiding and destroying, that is what Michael wil tell you, with his own mouth. pathetic try to destroy. Bye, no more debate, no replies.--[[User:Anatoly Ilych Belousov|Anatoly Ilych Belousov]] ([[User talk:Anatoly Ilych Belousov|talk]]) 17:46, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

== Dispute resolution on New Works section ==