Talk:Oromo people: Difference between revisions - Wikipedia
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==Horn of Africa in 1420 Map==
[[File:Map of Ethiopia circa 1420.png|thumb|Map of Ethiopia circa 1420]]
Hello [[User:EthiopianHabesha|EthiopianHabesha]], the map is not accurate and also not based on scholarly work, but please do show your evidence. -[[User:AlaskaLava|AlaskaLava]], 20 January 2017
:The map was self-created by a user (Ingoman) and references no sources whatsoever. Please, [[User:EthiopianHabesha]], do not readd it. [[User:Buckshot06|Buckshot06]] [[User_talk:Buckshot06|(talk)]] 22:07, 20 January 2017 (UTC)
::@[[User:AlaskaLava|AlaskaLava]], [[User:Buckshot06|Buckshot06]], did check the dates and boundary with mainly Richard Pankhurst Book and other books like the Futuh Al-Habash written by Arab chroniclers of Gragn Mohamed. It would have been helpful if specific issues in the map are pointed out. Anyways, since the importance of the map is to support Oromos existence in the Horn of Africa and in modern day Bale province then let me give some sources supporting that claim. Please see [https://books.google.com.et/books?id=zpYBD3bzW1wC&q=Genale+river#v=snippet&q=%22south%20or%20east%20of%20Bali%22&f=false][https://books.google.com.et/books?id=zpYBD3bzW1wC&q=Genale+river#v=snippet&q=Bali%20%22Southwards%20to%20the%20Ganale%22%20Sidama&f=false][https://books.google.com.et/books?id=cu-qCwAAQBAJ&pg=PA112&dq=%22between+the+twelfth+and+fifteenth+centuries,+the+Oromo+formed+the+Berentu+and+Borana+federations%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi6057WytPRAhVFIMAKHR95CSgQ6AEIGjAA#v=onepage&q=%22between%20the%20twelfth%20and%20fifteenth%20centuries%2C%20the%20Oromo%20formed%20the%20Berentu%20and%20Borana%20federations%22&f=false][https://www.google.com.et/search?site=&source=hp&q=%22Between+the+twelfth+and+%EF%AC%81fteenth+centuries+they+were+already+organised+into+the+Berentu+and+Borana+federations%22&oq=%22Between+the+twelfth+and+%EF%AC%81fteenth+centuries+they+were+already+organised+into+the+Berentu+and+Borana+federations%22&gs_l=hp.3...2206.5419.0.5717.3.3.0.0.0.0.200.200.2-1.1.0....0...1c.1.64.hp..2.0.0.Gj4T-xP58zA][https://www.google.com.et/search?q=However%2C+those+who+so+identify+themselves+view+their+homeland+as+being+the+southern+highlands+of+present-day+Ethiopia&oq=However%2C+those+who+so+identify+themselves+view+their+homeland+as+being+the+southern+highlands+of+present-day+Ethiopia&gs_l=serp.3...54235.54235.0.55411.1.1.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1c.1.64.serp..1.0.0.vKOTBXV6kUw][https://books.google.com.et/books?id=Glti5O1XMJ0C&pg=PA43&dq=%22fifteenth+century,+the+Oromo%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiuh_LcydPRAhULIsAKHWOiBNEQ6AEIGjAA#v=onepage&q=%22fifteenth%20century%2C%20the%20Oromo%22&f=false]. If there are other issues in the map please let me know. — [[User:EthiopianHabesha|EthiopianHabesha]] ([[User talk:EthiopianHabesha|talk]]) 15:06, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
{{od}}
@EthiopianHabesha: The map AlaskaLava and Buckshot06 removed asserts 1420 "Oromo Confederation" boundaries, as well as many other details that none of your sources verify. Pankhurst book that you mention does not support this map, it raises questions. On page 137, for example, second last para, Pankhurst states that ''Gallas'' (Oromo) were south or "east" of Bale, that too "probably" and c. 1460. The map shows them south and "southwest" of Bale with misleading certainty. What is it in these sources that leads you to believe that the map verifies? Please note that a historic map by someone, say created between 14th and 20th century, one we can verify in an externally published source can be included, but as Buckshot06 explains above, a self-created map by a wiki user is OR unless we can verify it. [[User:Ms Sarah Welch|Ms Sarah Welch]] ([[User talk:Ms Sarah Welch|talk]]) 20:15, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
:[[User:Ms Sarah Welch|Ms Sarah Welch]], "The map shows them south and "southwest" of Bale"? Richard said south or "east" of Bali [https://books.google.com.et/books?id=zpYBD3bzW1wC&q=Genale+river#v=snippet&q=%22south%20or%20east%20of%20Bali%22&f=false see] and the map also shows them mostly south of Bale with some on the southeast as well as some on the southwest. It will help in reaching consensus if you could please let me know where you think they were by 1420, so that we can draw another map online if you disagree with this one. — [[User:EthiopianHabesha|EthiopianHabesha]] ([[User talk:EthiopianHabesha|talk]]) 23:18, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
::These sources do not provide enough information to draw a "map" for 1420, 1460 or later. [[User:Ms Sarah Welch|Ms Sarah Welch]] ([[User talk:Ms Sarah Welch|talk]]) 00:02, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
:::Using a self-made map in the absence of reliable sources for it would violate [[WP:RS]] and [[WP:SYNTH]]. [[User:Buckshot06|Buckshot06]] [[User_talk:Buckshot06|(talk)]] 09:33, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
::::[[User:Buckshot06|Buckshot06]], searched wikipedia policy for maps and couldn't find, however checked many articles and almost all maps inserted say "Own Work" while not listing references [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Syrian,_Iraqi,_and_Lebanese_insurgencies.png][https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Bantu_zones.png]. I beleive why they are kept is because it's within consensus. Let me try to understand the concern of Ms Sarah in case if we can discuss and keep this one or draw another map together online, or may be once I have her concerns take it to Request for comment for other editors to comment about it. — [[User:EthiopianHabesha|EthiopianHabesha]] ([[User talk:EthiopianHabesha|talk]]) 10:57, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
[[User:Ms Sarah Welch|Ms Sarah Welch]], checked the dates put on the map and they all seem to be accurate but if you propose another map, please let me know which source we take i.e. if you disagree with Richard Pankhurst. I think Richard's location is clear and said they were found south of [[Ganale Doria River]] [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Jubbarivermap.png]. If you could please let me know which source we should take then it's not going to be diffcult to draw a map, after all, all maps drawn before 18th century are not perfect and readers do understand that. — [[User:EthiopianHabesha|EthiopianHabesha]] ([[User talk:EthiopianHabesha|talk]]) 11:12, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
:::::Well, those other maps should probably be taken down too. *It is not clearly based on any [[WP:Reliable Sources]]; and amateur map-makers taking information from multiple sources and trying to make a map out of it for WP would violate [[WP:SYNTH]]. Drop it, please. [[User:Buckshot06|Buckshot06]] [[User_talk:Buckshot06|(talk)]] 13:40, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
[[User:Buckshot06|Buckshot06]], what is realy the issue with the map if Richard said south of Genale Doria river and the map shows exactly according to what the scholar Richard Pankhurst said? I want to know the reason in case I can address them before I take it to [[Request for comment]] so that other editors give their opinion. Earlier, you said Wikipedia is not [[WP:NOTCENSORED]] so why should we censor Ricahrd's and other highly educated neutral and relevant scholar's hard work also saying south of Ganale or south of Bali sultanate? <s>— [[User:Buckshot06|Buckshot06]]</s> <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small class="autosigned">— Preceding [[Wikipedia:Signatures|unsigned]] comment added by [[User:EthiopianHabesha|EthiopianHabesha]] ([[User talk:EthiopianHabesha#top|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/EthiopianHabesha|contribs]]) </small>
:EthiopianHabesha: Please do not [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Oromo_people&diff=761359175&oldid=761356761 sign] as Buckshot06. That is basic TALK page etiquette. [[User:Ms Sarah Welch|Ms Sarah Welch]] ([[User talk:Ms Sarah Welch|talk]]) 15:30, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
::How did that happen? Just noticed now — [[User:EthiopianHabesha|EthiopianHabesha]] ([[User talk:EthiopianHabesha|talk]]) 16:10, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
:::EthiopianHabesha, please go to [[WP:SYNTH]] and read it. PLEASE DROP THIS REQUEST, IT VIOLATES WP:RS AND WP:SYNTH. [[User:Buckshot06|Buckshot06]] [[User_talk:Buckshot06|(talk)]] 19:49, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
== Final Proposal ==
There is no metion of how the region was before 20th centuary and it's not fair to censor history and let people assume the region was peaceful contrary to what reliable sources say. For this reason I am proposing to include both the following paragraphs:
:''Before 20th century, wars have been devastating in the region as well as in Oromo areas for many centuries. According to Donald, the reasons for warfare in the region is to acquire cattle, slaves, to gain territories or control over trade routes and to carry out ritual requirements or secure trophies to prove masculinity. Wars were fought between people who may be under the same linguistic group, religion, culture or between unrelated tribes, and according to Donald the centralization greatly reduced these continuous wars, thereafter, minimizing the loss of lives, raids, destruction and slavery that usually occur during battles of that era.[https://www.google.com.et/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=%22welcomed+as+a+way+to+put+an+end+to+their+own+troublesome+intertribal+fighting.%22+%22Galla-Amhara%22+%22+terribly+destructive+of+human+life%2C+economic+resources%2C+and+artistic+treasures.+%22][https://www.google.com.et/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=%22Galla%27s+most+esteemed+adversaries+in+war+have+in+fact+been+other+Gallinya-speaking+communities%22][https://www.google.com.et/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=%22indeed%2C+a+large+part+of+the+increased+slave+trade%22+%22nineteenth+century+%22+%22Galla+captives+being+sold+by+other+Galla%22][https://www.google.com.et/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=%22importance+of+warfare+as+a+form+of+intertribal+relations+in+Greater+Ethiopia%22+cattle+slaves+territory+%22trade+routes%22+%22ritual+requirements%22+%22virtually+all%22+%22hostile+contact%22+trophies+masculinity]''
:''Conquered people who are non Oromos and other Oromo tribes who resisted the Oromo occupation were subject to serfdom and cruel treatments. Several successive army leaders of various Oromo tribes known as "Lubas" carried out atrocities against civilians and combatants including torture, mass killings, depopulation and large scale slavery. People under the rule of the Oromos were adopted through Mogassa and were assimilated while their states were destroyed. Those who resisted, men or women, under the rule of the Oromos were subject to mutilation and slavery.[https://books.google.com.et/books?id=zpYBD3bzW1wC&pg=PA284#v=onepage&q&f=false][https://books.google.com.et/books?id=b0_uAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA229#v=onepage&q&f=false][https://books.google.com.et/books?id=xmp2lsKlqx0C&pg=PA123#v=onepage&q=genitals%20ritualized%20trophy&f=false][https://books.google.com.et/books?id=mGcwAQAAIAAJ&focus=searchwithinvolume&q=castration+breasts+cut+off+gugsa][https://www.google.com.et/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=%22Ras+Gugsa+did+not+rule+according+to+the+laws+of+Mahammad+although+he+was+a+Warra+Sik%22][https://books.google.com.et/books?id=Sd1RAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA40&dq=%22Boran+is+not+affected+by+any+feeling+of+sin+if+he+rips+the+belly+of+a+pregnant+Somali,+Gabbra+or+Rendille+woman,+castrates+the+embryo+and+dances+with+the+trophy%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiYvuWO8dXRAhWG7hoKHRcYAokQ6AEIGTAA#v=onepage&q=%22Boran%20is%20not%20affected%20by%20any%20feeling%20of%20sin%20if%20he%20rips%20the%20belly%20of%20a%20pregnant%20Somali%2C%20Gabbra%20or%20Rendille%20woman%2C%20castrates%20the%20embryo%20and%20dances%20with%20the%20trophy%22&f=false][https://www.google.com.et/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=%22male+prisoners+of+war+or+to+cut+off+their+genitalia+and+to+cut+off+the+breasts+of+the+females+captured%22][https://books.google.com.et/books?id=LIFGAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA813&lpg=PA813&dq=%22All+the+males+except+the+monarch+and+his+children+have+both+breasts+cut+off,+and+are+otherwise+mutilated%22&source=bl&ots=MruspsTbi9&sig=H8TL-SmPI4JnSRErVAxawTKOc2s&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwip-La6mcrRAhXEvRoKHeldDPEQ6AEIGjAA#v=onepage&q=%22All%20the%20males%20except%20the%20monarch%20and%20his%20children%20have%20both%20breasts%20cut%20off%2C%20and%20are%20otherwise%20mutilated%22&f=false][https://books.google.com.et/books?id=E1oFAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA368#v=onepage&q=Galla%20breasts&f=false][https://books.google.com.et/books?id=zpYBD3bzW1wC&pg=PA284#v=snippet&q=%22enslaved%20its%20men%22&f=false][https://books.google.com.et/books?id=zpYBD3bzW1wC&pg=PA284#v=snippet&q=%22forced%20into%20slavery%22&f=false]''
@[[User:Ms Sarah Welch|Ms Sarah Welch]], if there is consensus to give readers balanced and complete information per [[WP:NPOV]] and [[WP:NOTCENSORED]], then you may include this toned down history as well. Thanks — [[User:EthiopianHabesha|EthiopianHabesha]] ([[User talk:EthiopianHabesha|talk]]) 14:09, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
:@EthiopianHabesha: I am having trouble parsing your sentences and understanding your English. Please reread Robert McClenon's comment on this talk page and in response to your past DRN filing related to this article. If you are trying to suggest that we should summarize the conflict between Muslim Oromo and Christian Oromos and others, and that there was retaliatory violence by Oromo people on other ethnic groups in 19th and 20th centuries, there is a better way to do so within our content guidelines. [[User:Ms Sarah Welch|Ms Sarah Welch]] ([[User talk:Ms Sarah Welch|talk]]) 14:20, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
::[[User:Ms Sarah Welch|Ms Sarah Welch]], whenever I bring something that you do not like you focus on the editor instead of dealing with the content presented. The sources I listed are in proper English and if you believe Wikipedia articles need to be balanced, complete, NPOV, No history censor and if you beleive all other scholars opinion (mainly European neutrals who write without agenda) should be included then you could summerise the sources, tone it down, and include them. Thanks — [[User:EthiopianHabesha|EthiopianHabesha]] ([[User talk:EthiopianHabesha|talk]]) 14:40, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
::: Why include the various reasons for war in the region, on the Oromo article? Donald Levine bit might be better off on the Ethiopia article. [[User:Duqsene|Duqsene]] ([[User talk:Duqsene|talk]]) 15:11, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
:::: Donald is generalizing for the region (including Oromo) but if you look at the rest of the sources they also associate what Donald said with the Oromo. — [[User:EthiopianHabesha|EthiopianHabesha]] ([[User talk:EthiopianHabesha|talk]]) 16:15, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
[[User:Ms Sarah Welch|Ms Sarah Welch]], I think we need to clarify in regards to the importance of warfare before 20th century. See [https://books.google.com.et/books?id=TtmFQejWaaYC&pg=PA136#v=onepage&q=%22One%20hardly%20needs%20to%20document%20the%20importance%20of%20warfare%22&f=false] Donald's conclusion for why the people in the region used to fight. Since all the reasons for fighting listed by Donald are also shared with other neighbouring ethnic-groups, I just simply summarised it generally instead of giving the impression that it only applies to Oromo. However, if you want to be specific and say Oromos fight for this and that reasons then you may see the rest of the sources provided above specifically saying they used to fight for the reasons listed by Donald. If you need more sources you may let me know. Thanks — [[User:EthiopianHabesha|EthiopianHabesha]] ([[User talk:EthiopianHabesha|talk]]) 14:02, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
::@EthiopianHabesha: Please see the explanation above. In the source, see the section that starts on page 135. On page 136 it uses the phrase "esteemed adversaries". But to properly summarize that we need to mention jihad, Christians, Borana, Guji, Arsi, etc not just only one fragment of a sentence out of context. You are unnecessarily repeating, and you are quoting Levine out of context. [[User:Ms Sarah Welch|Ms Sarah Welch]] ([[User talk:Ms Sarah Welch|talk]]) 15:19, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
:: [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Oromo_people&diff=prev&oldid=761530199 You also added] the following
::: Some of these Oromo groups who made alliance, like [[Yejju Oromo tribe|Yejju tribe]], even end up as the rulers of Amhara-Tigrean people between 1769-1855.<ref name=A1-2-1-1>Paulos Milkias, Getachew Metaferia [https://books.google.com.et/books?id=pq1MBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA274&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=1769-1855&f=false The Battle of Adwa: Reflections on Ethiopia's Historic Victory Against European Colonialism]. Algora Publishing (2005) pp. 274-275 Google Books</ref>
{{reflist-talk}}
::Paulos Milkias and Getachew Metaferia state no such thing on pages 274-275. At all. Nor do Giyorgis and Tafla. Please provide a quote from Milkias and Metaferia pages. They are claiming intermarriage between Amhara-Oromo elites, etc and we have summarized these pages elsewhere in this article. [[User:Ms Sarah Welch|Ms Sarah Welch]] ([[User talk:Ms Sarah Welch|talk]]) 15:33, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
:::[[User:Ms Sarah Welch|Ms Sarah Welch]], page 135-136 is discussing about the division and inter-tribal fighting within the Oromo and it's not about jihad or Christians. Please see again [https://books.google.com.et/books?id=TtmFQejWaaYC&pg=PA136#v=onepage&q&f=false]. I hope you have noticed that the article is becoming large. If you think it's necessary to add one more paragraph just to summarise what is found in page 136 then please do so. As for [[Yejju Oromo tribe]], Asma Giorgis & Bairu Tafla did say that [[Gugsa of Yejju]] ruled Gojam, Begemider, Wallo and Tigre, and instead I summarised the Amhara provinces and said "rulers of Amhara-Tigrean people", please see [https://books.google.com.et/books?id=mGcwAQAAIAAJ&q=%22Gozzam,+Bagemeder,+Tegre+and+Wallo+with+absolute+authority+for+27+years%22&dq=%22Gozzam,+Bagemeder,+Tegre+and+Wallo+with+absolute+authority+for+27+years%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjm-bTB9trRAhXIOxQKHUcBB3gQ6AEIGzAA]. For more on Yejus please see [https://books.google.com.et/books?id=NWNTfztz5KoC&pg=PA107#v=snippet&q=%221786%20and%201853%22%20Yejju%20Oromo%20lords&f=false][https://books.google.com.et/books?id=H8EWAQAAIAAJ&q=1769-1855+Galla+OR+yejju+-Unification&dq=1769-1855+Galla+OR+yejju+-Unification&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj--qvh99rRAhUCVhQKHQDID-AQ6AEIKTAC][https://www.google.com.et/search?q=%22A+Yejju+Oromo+chieftain+by+the+name+of+Ali+Gwangul,+popularly+known+as+Ali+The+Great,+defeated+Atse+Tekle-Giorgis+I,+Emperor+of+Ethiopia+in+1784+and+became+the+ruler+of+Ethiopia+without+crowning+himself.%22&source=lnms&tbm=bks&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwismISkgMXRAhUkJMAKHeZSBuEQ_AUIDCgF&biw=1600&bih=770][https://books.google.com.et/books?id=caSwQZab5awC&pg=PA22&dq=%22since+1786,+the+Were+Seh+Mesfinate%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj0zIPjhtvRAhWBmxQKHUBwDSQQ6AEIGzAA#v=onepage&q=%22since%201786%2C%20the%20Were%20Seh%20Mesfinate%22&f=false] — [[User:EthiopianHabesha|EthiopianHabesha]] ([[User talk:EthiopianHabesha|talk]]) 15:04, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
::::I already checked the references. They do not support your WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. You are also mistaken about jihad/Christian/etc mention on pages 135-136. I asked you to quote the sentence that you believe supports what you added. [[User:Ms Sarah Welch|Ms Sarah Welch]] ([[User talk:Ms Sarah Welch|talk]]) 15:10, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
{{od}}
[[User:Ms Sarah Welch|Ms Sarah Welch]], what do you think we should about page 135-136, censor that? Since it is related to division and inter-tribal fighting within the Oromo, related to the paragraph you just added (beginning with "''The inter-tribal relationships within the Oromo people.....''"), then I added it there. May be we deal with this one first before discussing about Yejjus. The article is already large and it's pointless to have another paragraph just for discussing page 135-136 when we could just summarise and add them to this paragraph you added for discussing inter-tribal fighting, division, and fight with other ethnic-groups. — [[User:EthiopianHabesha|EthiopianHabesha]] ([[User talk:EthiopianHabesha|talk]]) 15:34, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
:How many times do I have to repeat myself? Read the article carefully. The old version already states "There was intertribal fighting within Oromo.[67]" Why repeat that in the article? I ask you for a quote, you don't provide one, instead argue WP:Censor which has nothing to do with the WP:OR concerns. Please consider Robert McClenon's comment, EthiopianHabesha, about your ability and competence to contribute, and that you shouldn't be editing English wikipedia. [[User:Ms Sarah Welch|Ms Sarah Welch]] ([[User talk:Ms Sarah Welch|talk]]) 15:44, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
::[[User:Ms Sarah Welch|Ms Sarah Welch]], didn't you understand my question saying "what do you think we should about page 135-136, censor that?". Ofcourse, I have seen this "There was intertribal fighting within Oromo.[67]" but what I am asking you is what should we do about a work done by a respected scholar called [[Donald N. Levine]]. Please [https://books.google.com.et/books?id=TtmFQejWaaYC&pg=PA136#v=onepage&q&f=false see], should we add one more paragraph for this, if not what do you think we should do about that? I mean if you summarised page 135-136 as simply "there was inter-tribal fighting within Oromo" then why not also summarise the Amhara-Oromo wars as simply as "there was fight between Amhara-Oromo" without explaining further? — [[User:EthiopianHabesha|EthiopianHabesha]] ([[User talk:EthiopianHabesha|talk]]) 16:06, 24 January 2017 (UTC)
== Gadda/Gadaa ==