Talk:Samaria - Wikipedia

from article

, which is currently under Israeli military occupation.

I think the West Bank article explains the control vs. occupation thing well enough. Not every mention of these disputed territories has to call them "occupied", any more than Tibet has to be called "occupied by China". See occupied territory.

-- could not find related article at the URL mentioned --

For links to this interesting movie and a review check this URL out: http://urijamjari.blogspot.com

It's about an amateur prostitute that is in High School. She and her friend are seeking enough cash to travel abroad, but there is a very major price to be paid to avoid being caught in what could be considered a very puritanical country. Sorry to take you guys off topic, but this movie has some very high impact images in it.

The previous article was unsure, though that really seems irrelvant to this article. The official US position is to sit on the fence and wait for a final-status agreement to be reached by Israelis and Palestinians. Official US policy has never recognized Israeli sovreignty in Samaria, but has reluctantly tolerated the establishing of Jewish settlements with a very watchful eye. Shuki 23:07, 21 January 2006 (UTC)Reply

Merge - though this large section about the city/ruins of Sebastia in this article needs major cleanup. --Shuki 20:07, 18 May 2006 (UTC)Reply

I'm not sure if merging would be accurate, because though Sebastia is next to Samaria (site), one is a village, and one is an archaelogical/national park. One is Area B and run by the Palestinian Authority, and one is Area C and run by Israel. Tewfik^Talk 21:09, 18 May 2006 (UTC)Reply

If the article is written properly and clearly, confusion arising out of this will be avoided. The way I see it in general without getting POV: Samaria is a region, but also the ancient city Samaria, Hebrew:Shomron, Greek:Sebaste. Sebastia is also a nearby Palestinian hamlet (I linked to on the article). I don't know if a seperate disambiguation article would do, or a 'other article' tag enough on multi-pages, though in the end, the result[s] is relevant to Sebastia as well. --Shuki 22:17, 18 May 2006 (UTC)Reply

I think that "Samaria is a region" should be in a separate entry than "Samaria (site), as village, or as an archaelogical/national park". the site should have one entry clearly explaining the historical & political complexities, and the region should have another, emphasizing its natural qualities; unique climate, topography, flora-fauna, and general geography

if there's no objection, i'll write in that direction. when i get a "round toit" :) Shilonite 12:36, 21 August 2006 (UTC)Reply

Merged

Separating Samaria as a modern region and political bounderies, versus archaeological site makes sense, and would merit separate articles if it's long enough. I've merged the Sebastia, Middle East article to here for now, since 90% of the material was already duplicated [to or from] here. —Quarl ^(talk) 2007-02-28 06:46Z

Hi Quarl. Today I was looking for the page on Sebastia and I was redirected here. I am going to re-create the page Sebastia, Middle East since it is a topic in its own right and while located in Samaria is not by any means its equivalent. I hope that's okay with you. Tiamut 21:19, 14 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

Okay then. What I've done is created Sebastia, West Bank. I replaced the redirect to this page with a redirect to that page which also mentions that the modern-day town is directly adjacent to the ancient ruins of Samaria-Sebaste, and remains of Sebastia (from at least as early as the Roman period onward) also lie within the modern-day town. The modern-day town itself has been scarcely excavated. I'm going to expand the other article slowly over the next little while. Your feedback there would be appreciated and also on how to untie the gordian knot between all these articles. Tiamut 00:21, 15 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

Where is Samaria on the map? 131.123.231.143 22:28, 12 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

Where is Samaria on the map? Badagnani 13:51, 21 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

Samaria is another name for the city of 'Sebastia' located near Sebastia, West Bank as well as the area described in the 'Geographical location' paragraph. --Shuki 22:45, 22 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

Thanks. Where is it on the map? Badagnani 23:08, 22 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

[1] or goto [2] and search for Sebastya. --Shuki 23:26, 22 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

Thanks, where is it on the map in this article? Badagnani 23:28, 22 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

It says Shomron on the map. --Shuki 18:54, 23 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

Well, then, that's very confusing and not helpful to our readers. Either the map or the article needs to be changed to make this clear. Also, some maps I have seen depict "Samaria" as a region, not simply a dot (city). This also needs to be made clear in whatever map is used in this article. Badagnani 19:07, 23 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

The map remains highly inappropriate, not listing the name "Samaria," nor the region of the same name. Please address this. Badagnani 07:00, 3 December 2007 (UTC)Reply

"Palestine" is a term that came about for the land in 70 AD by the Romans after the first Roman-Jewish war.

It would be "Palestine" as a term for this land before 70 AD.

In the "sister" article, I have presented an argument why we need a usage note to indicate that the term "Samaria" is 1) controversial and 2) not commonly used outside Israel. To keep the discussion manageable, please post counter-arguments (and arguments in support of adding a usage note) there. MeteorMaker (talk) 16:33, 9 April 2008 (UTC)Reply

I have suggested a modification of the lead in Talk:Judea#Term_usage_note that also applies to this article. Your views are welcome (but please post there, not here). MeteorMaker (talk) 09:42, 13 April 2008 (UTC)Reply

Accuracy disputed: "Samaria", a historical or modern toponym?

I have added a "Disputed" tag to the page, until the toponym dispute started in the sister article on Judea, which also affects this article, can be resolved. To keep the discussion manageable, please post your views there, not here. MeteorMaker (talk) 16:45, 16 April 2008 (UTC)Reply

My edit was not vandalism. Bullet items NEVER have spaces between them. Look at any wikipedia article. Look at any references section.68.148.164.166 (talk) 02:50, 26 April 2008 (UTC)Reply

What does "historic mountainous northern part of the West Bank of the Jordan River" mean in connection with Samaria? Is the phrase intended to distinguish it from the "non-historic mountainous northern part of the West Bank of the Jordan River"? Is it intended to distinguish it from the southern part of the West Bank, which is presumably "non-historic"? Please avoid meaningless POV words. Thanks. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:10, 31 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

It's intended to align it with the "sister" article on Judea, which uses the same word, although slightly differently. I have now copied the exact phrase amended it slightly because using the exact phrase wouldn't be geographically correct. MeteorMaker (talk) 07:44, 31 October 2008 (UTC)Reply

The other article didn't use it that way, and the phrase "what is today" is also a pleonasm. Please stop inserting unnecessary words which serve only to confuse, not illuminate. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:07, 2 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

If it's a pleonasm, where else in the article is the same thing stated? If it's confusing, what confusing message does it convey? MeteorMaker (talk) 08:57, 2 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

When you insert "what is today" before the West Bank, are you trying to distinguish it from what was yesterday the West Bank? Should we replace all occurrences of "West Bank" in Wikipedia with "what is today the West Bank"? Please avoid pleonasms. Jayjg ^(talk) 21:50, 2 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

No, but for consistency's sake, you will have to level your pleonasm charge against 2,800 occurrences of the phrase "what is today" on Wikipedia [3]. To take just one example:

The District of Athabaska covered the northern half of what is today Alberta. [4]

To distinguish it from what was yesterday Alberta? Hardly. MeteorMaker (talk) 22:33, 2 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

The District of Athabaska is, however, only a historical term, whereas Samaria is still used to today. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:44, 2 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

Where is it used? MeteorMaker (talk) 22:48, 2 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

In about 3.1 million web-pages. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:50, 2 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

Not with the meaning "the northern part of today's West Bank". Remove refs to the Bible and biblical history, various religious orgs named after Samaria, the Samaria Gorge on Crete, the Korean movie Samaria, and you're left with significantly fewer Google hits than Athabasca [5]. MeteorMaker (talk) 22:59, 2 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

Here are modern sources:[6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15]. That was done with a 5 minute Google search, there are hundreds more. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:42, 2 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

Don't Jerusalem Post, Israel National News, Jerusalem Newswire, Jewish World Review, Ynet.co.il, the Yediot Achronot newspaper, the IDF's official website, Tamir Eshel (a former IDF officer), and Israel's Ministry of Foreign Affairs have something in common? MeteorMaker (talk) 00:09, 3 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

What do they have in common with Newsweek, Defense Update, Jewish World Review, and the Jewish Virtual Library, and why would that be relevant? Jayjg ^(talk) 00:15, 3 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

If you read your own sources (maybe the 5-minute time span didn't allow for that), you will find that Defense Update is run by Tamir Eshel, a former IDF officer (and his brother) [16], that the JVL article quotes the Yediot Ahronot newspaper verbatim [17], and that the Jewish World Review sometimes publishes articles by the deputy managing editor of The Jerusalem Post, such as the one you linked to [18]. Why is it relevant that 9 out of 10 of your sources are Israel-based, and that the tenth, a Newsweek article, consistently calls the area in question the West Bank, except in the Bible-alluding title? MeteorMaker (talk) 00:34, 3 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

Defense Update is published in the U.K., and what makes you think Newsweek is alluding to the Bible? And how does that tie in, for example, to Ian Lustik's reference to "the young Gush Emunim settlements in Samaria" in For the Land and the Lord: Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel, p.54, published by the Council on Foreign Relations in 1988? And what on earth would all that be relevant to anyway? What argument are you trying to make? Jayjg ^(talk) 00:57, 3 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

Defense Update is published by an ex-IDF officer, who didn't lay off his Israel-specific terminology when he based his website in the UK. How your new quote from Ian Lustik's book on Israeli fundamentalists ties in is difficult to say without the book handy, but my suspicion is that he's quoting one of those fundamentalists. And if you read the second page of the Newsweek article, the Bible allusion is right there.

The relevance, since you asked, is that "Samaria" seems to have a very different denotation than "the northern West Bank", and the only part of the world where it isn't so seems to be Israel. Should English Wikipedia begin to use Israel-specific terminology, or should we adhere to the WP guidelines about place names? MeteorMaker (talk) 07:35, 3 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

Defense Update is a U.K. publication, Newsweek is American, GeoJournal is Dutch, Ring and Salkin refer to the modern location, and Lustik wasn't quoting anyone. Now, according to what reliable source is it the case that ""Samaria" seems to have a very different denotation than "the northern West Bank", and the only part of the world where it isn't so seems to be Israel."? Jayjg ^(talk) 02:08, 4 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

For the third time, Defense Update is a U.K. publication, owned and edited by a former IDF officer. If he chooses to publish abroad, that does not make him a non-Israeli. The Newsweek article uses "the West Bank" consistently except in the Bible-alluding title. Israeli researchers retain their nationality (and their idiosyncratic terminology) even if they publish their papers (such as the one Oboler linked to) in Dutch journals.

If, as you claim Ring and Salkin (from Oboler's link below) refer to the modern location, a full quote would be helpful. The same goes for Lustik.

Again, I'm not claiming anything, only requesting evidence for your claim that "Samaria" is still used today. The evidence produced has led to the conclusion that it's used exclusively in Israel. MeteorMaker (talk) 06:51, 4 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

Nice try. I haven't made any claims; rather, it is you who is claiming that the term "Samaria" is not used today, or only used in Israel, or only used by ex-Israelis, or only used in sources you don't trust. Provide sources for your claims. Jayjg ^(talk) 02:53, 5 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

As you might recall from the Judea thread, negatives cannot generally be proven. You have provided ten sources, and each one reaffirms the conclusion that Israelis use "Samaria", the rest of the world "the West Bank". If you want to present your opposing hypothesis as fact on Wikipedia, uniquely among reference works, you must be able to provide some kind of evidence for it, preferably a reliable source. MeteorMaker (talk) 07:32, 5 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

You don't have to prove a negative though, just prove your unsourced argument about the term "Samaria". Jayjg ^(talk) 00:21, 6 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

How do you suggest one goes about proving that X does not exist in location Y, Jayjg? One would think it's rather more easy for those who claim it does to come up with at least one good example of it. MeteorMaker (talk) 07:25, 6 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

(Remove indent) This is getting a little silly. Here are some more links showing the use of the term published by sources unconnected to the conflict, Israel, Israelis, Jews, etc. As a point of principle this should NOT be needed as it is problematic when there is well poisoning based on country / religion etc. Here are my two additional sources: Spatial analysis of historical migrations in Samaria, GeoJournal, Springer Netherlands. The author may be Israeli, but the Journal is academic, international and would have gone through blind peer review (making the author irrelevant to the question of acceptable usage interntionally). International Dictionary of Historic Places by Trudy Ring, Robert M. Salkin - 1996 (book) Published by Fitzroy Dearborn Publishers (Chicago, IL)(bought by Taylor & Francis Group in 2002). The usage is not purely historic but is used to refer to the place today. See the text in Google Books. Can we now move away from spurious allegation? Oboler (talk) 01:36, 3 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

The preface of your post summarized it well. Of your two examples, that were intended to show that many non-Israelis use the term "Samaria" for the modern West Bank, one is written by an Israeli, and the second is about historic Samaria. MeteorMaker (talk) 07:41, 3 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

Inadvertently, and contrary to the intentions I stated above, I seem to have moved the name debate from the article on Judea to here. For those unfamiliar with it, it can be read here and here. I encourage posting there, since the toponym issue is essentially the same, but we seem to have a good debate going here, so I will not try to put a lid on it.

To recapitulate: Some editors have objected to the time qualifier "what is today" in "Samaria [...] is a term used for the mountainous northern part of what is today the West Bank". They state that:

• "it is bad English" - if true, it must also be deleted from 2,800 other WP articles that also use the exact same time qualifier in the exact same manner [19].
• "it's a pleonasm" - not in any immediately obvious sense of the word, since it does not repeat information from elsewhere in the article.
• "it is still used today" - none of the sources that have been provided supports the hypothesis that the toponym "Samaria" is still used today, except in Israel, which was never in question but not particularly relevant for English WP. What something is called in Israel does not override the established English name in any case, and English WP should use English place names. To make a similar example, if the article on Germany implied that "Germania" is a valid alternative name in English, it would be both incorrect and confusing, regardless of the fact that Israelis still use the Roman Empire-age name. MeteorMaker (talk) 11:56, 3 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

You have been shown a number of examples above which are not "in Israel" and which refer to the location as "Samaria". Now, what reliable source supports your theory regarding the nature of the term "Samaria"? Jayjg ^(talk) 02:12, 4 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

Two editors have supplied quotes (posted in the section above) to support their hypothesis that the toponym "Samaria" for the modern West Bank is used outside Israel.

• Of Jayjg's ten examples, all except one have been shown to be written by Israelis. The tenth uses "the West Bank" consistently, except in the title, which alludes to Bible-era Jewish history.
• Oboler supplied two examples. Both are dealing with the area's history, and one was written by an Israeli. Jayjg will supply a full quote to support his claim that the authors of the other book also use the term for the modern area.

The results so far:

• Miscategorized (dealing with historic Samaria): 2 cases.
• "Samaria" is used exclusively by Israelis: 10 cases.
• "Samaria" is used by others than Israelis: 0 cases, but it may change if better evidence comes along.

MeteorMaker (talk) 07:22, 4 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

Ian Lustik is Israeli? Amazing. Anyway, please provide reliable sources for your theories about the term "Samaria". Jayjg ^(talk) 02:55, 5 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

Ian Lustik (your 11th example) uses the term "the West Bank" consistently in his book about Israeli fundamentalist settlers, except in two or three places where he is writing from the fundamentalist settlers' perspective [20]. If he had been writing about white supremacy groups in today's Germany and used the term "Fatherland" in that context, you wouldn't conclude that that's a valid alternative to "Germany", even if some groups he writes about may be using it that way. Please stop misrepresenting sources, and please stop demanding that your opponents must prove a negative. You have still not shown that your use of the term "Samaria" is consistent with WP rules about place names. MeteorMaker (talk) 07:27, 5 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

Err, Lustik uses both terms, and he doesn't use it to "write from the fundamentalist settler's perspective", you just invented that, like you invented the claim that Newsweek meant the term in the Biblical sense. You really need to find some reliable sources for your thesis. Jayjg ^(talk) 00:23, 6 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

Lustick uses "West Bank" 141 times and "Samaria" 8, each time when writing about settlers' ideology or ambitions, plus two where he explains that:

[...]the annexationist camp in Israel prefers to refer to the area betwen the Green Line and the Jordan River not as the West Bank but as Judea and Samaria."

Here's a link to the book[21] in case you want to see for yourself. "Samaria" is not part of Lustick's own terminology any more than of mine, despite both of us using it in discussions.

The Newsweek article uses "West Bank" 9 times, "Palestine/ian" 3, and "Samaria" twice: 1) in a direct quote from an Israeli and 2) in the title ("Last Stand in Samaria", because the article (on page 2) alludes to the Masada siege. Again, "Samaria" is not part of Newsweek's own terminology. A search on their site on "Samaria" yields 22 hits [22], six of which are found in interviews with Israelis, two deal with ancient Samaria, one with the "Trans-Samarian Highway" and no less than 12 that explicitly say "the West Bank, which Israelis call Judea and Samaria". In comparison, a search on "West Bank" yields 695 hits, "Palestine" 495. MeteorMaker (talk) 09:15, 6 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

Since Lustick and Newsweek qualify as reliable sources, I have now added a usage domain note in the lead. MeteorMaker (talk) 10:10, 6 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

As had been explained to you before, "Judea and Samaria" is not the same as "Samaria", and Lustick himself uses "Samaria" as a simple toponym, in that very same book. Jayjg ^(talk) 13:04, 6 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

The available evidence would not seem to support that hypothesis. If you had a source for that claim, and your claim that "Judea and Samaria" is not the same as "Judea" and "Samaria", your argument would perhaps have some merit. I am also still waiting for your evidence that "Samaria" is a modern toponym outside Israel - what you have produced so far has in fact done a good job to help disprove your own theory. MeteorMaker (talk) 13:20, 6 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

I see that on the heels of your failed attempt to push this POV into the Judea article, you're at it here (and multiple other articles using the term.) Please stop it. As before, you have been presented with several non-Israeli sources using the term, which you are refusing to acknowledge, using original research about what you think their users "really" meant or alluded to. Here are several more for you, knock yourself out with original research to discount them: [23], [24],[25], [26] [27] Canadian Monkey (talk) 23:09, 4 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

For those who want to make up their own minds about just how convincing CM's and others attempts were to prop up their hypothesis that "Judea" is a modern toponym outside Israel, here's a direct link. Suffice it to say that it didn't fare any better than the attempts on this page.

You even bring some of the same, thoroughly refuted, sources this time around, so I'll just copy and paste the refutals in the relevant places:

• On the page your first link leads to [28], there are no less than 48 maps. Every single one has the area clearly marked "West Bank", except a couple of historical ones, and most also add "(Israel-occupied territory)". The one you are probably referring to is the CIA reference bilingual one (showing what the places are called in Israel and on the West Bank, eg "Nābulus/Shekhem", better known as Nablus in English), which indeed has the word "Samaria" on it. In case you have concluded this means the CIA endorses the term, I recommend a simple search on their web site:

Samaria": Search found 0 documents from 7369 searched.

"West Bank": Search found 675 documents from 7369 searched. [29]

• [30]"Samaria Hills" is a different thing from "Samaria". The term "Samaria Hills" is, as I understand it, way less controversial than "Samaria" and does indeed occur in the text, but that is as irrelevant as support for your claim as contending that the existence of the Rocky Mountains leads to the logical conclusion that there must be a US state called Rocky.
• [31] The presence of the label "Perea" on this map where Jordan is today could perhaps have served as an indicator that it's not exactly a map of the modern area.
• [32] Studium Biblicum Franciscanum is based in Jerusalem. The article also deals with historic Samaria.
• [33] Moshe Kaufman is an Israeli.

So, the current score:

• Miscategorized (dealing with historic Samaria, or other things than the Samaria area): 4 cases.
• Misattributed (author uses "West Bank" consistently, but has used "Samaria" once for poetic or other reasons): 2 cases.
• "Samaria" is used exclusively by Israelis: 13 cases.
• "Samaria" is used by others than Israelis: 0 cases, but it may change if better evidence comes along.

MeteorMaker (talk) 08:29, 5 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

I see we'll have to repeat the entire discussion from the Judea article. very well.

You were claiming the "Samaria" is not in modern use, other than in Israel (or by Israelis). The CIA map is a clear cut case of the use of "Samaria" as a modern toponym, by non-Israelis, outside of Israel. The original research you are engaged in, to show that the CIA also uses "west bank", or uses "west bank" more often than it uses "Samaria" is of no relevance here, as this is not what we are debating. Again: you claimed Samaria is not in use, at all, and the CIA map disproves this claim.

"Samaria hills" is indeed different from "Samaria" - whereas Samaria is the general geographic region, "Samaria Hills" is a certain subset of it. No one is claiming that "Samaria" is a state (so let's dispense with the ridiculous strawman of a "state called Rocky") but the existence of the term 'Samaria Hills' most certainly leads to the logical conclusion that there must be a geographic region called "Samaria", in the same way that the existence of Central Siberian Plateau is an indication that a geographic region called Siberia exists, in the same way that the existence of Saharan Atlas indicates the existence of a geographic region called Sahara, and in the same way that Appalachian Mountains indicates the existence of a geographic region called Appalachia.

Studium Biblicum Franciscanum is based in Jerusalem, but is a Franciscan organization, comprised of non-Israelis. The article in question very clearly describes Samaria in a modern, non biblical contexts, contrasting as it does the location of the modern town of Qabatiya in Samaria with that of other modern toponyms.

Moshe Kaufman is an Israeli, but the source I pointed you to is a website which markets his art, which is run by non-Israelis and is based in Houston.

We've been through all this before, on Judea. Numerous examples show the term in use by Israelis as well as by non-Israelis, by organizations based in Israel as well as organizations based outside of Israel, in a biblical context as well as in a non-biblical context. Please stop these futile exercises in original research. Canadian Monkey (talk) 18:19, 6 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

It is not original research to ask for sources when somebody makes a claim, nor is it original research to point out the flaws in the evidence that results from the request. It's in fact the standard Wikipedia procedure.

Your sources were thoroughly refuted in the Judea discussion, and why you bring them up again is beyond me. I will now refute them again, for the last time I hope.

• The CIA map: Again, it's what's known as a bilingual map, a map with the local place names in two languages (plus English). It's no more evidence of CIA adoption of the term than a Hebrew-English dictionary is evidence of "שטויות" being a word in English. Also, it's not that the CIA uses "the West Bank" more often than "Samaria" — they don't use "Samaria" at all, as my link shows.
• You surmise that there is a rule that the existence of the toponym "X hills" implies that there must also be a geographic entity "X", which probably comes as a surprise for residents of Beverly Hills and other places. If you have evidence of such a rule, by all means, show it. Else, it must be written off as original research.
• Studium Biblicum Franciscanum say they have been based in Jerusalem since 1924, and sometimes apparently use the local place names. Nothing strange, and considering your text was written by an Italian living in Israel, exceptionally weak as evidence of widespread use of the term "Samaria" in the English language.
• Moshe Kaufman is an Israeli, and nothing on the site suggests the text is written by anybody else than himself. (Don't be fooled by his use of third person, that's common practice in artist bios, even when the artist writes about himself).

If, as you claim, you have "numerous examples [that] show the term in use by non-Israelis", one would think you wouldn't have to fight so hard over a handful of highly dubious ones. Even better, maybe you could see if you can find some evidence for your hypothesis with the accepted Wikipedia method. MeteorMaker (talk) 19:51, 6 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

Your original research on the CIA map is unconvincing. If it was true that this is a "bilingual map", then it would say "Shomron" below "Samaria". It doesn't. It uses "Samaria", exclusively. To say the CIA does not use "Samaria" at all, in the context of a discussion about a map where they quite plainly do use it is nothing short of bizarre.

I did not say anything about a rule, but gave you several pretty convincing examples where a geographical area's sub-regions do indicate the existence of a broader region. Perhaps you can address the examples I used, as they relate to the argument at hand. What do you make of the relationship between [[Appalachian Mountains] and Appalachia? Is it some random coincidence that these share a similar sounding name?

Please have a look at [34], which clearly describes who owns this site.

There is nothing dubious in the dozen or so examples shown to you. The only dubious aspect of this exchange is the nature of your original research and the increasingly flimsy reasons used to discount every example given to you. Nothing in your behavior so far, here and on Judea, leads me to expect that you will not similarly discount a dozen more examples, so I am not particularly motivated to look for additional examples, which are not needed. We've played this game for a while on Judea until I lost interest, and I am close to losing interest here. Please edit in accordance with WP policies. Canadian Monkey (talk)

• Again, search for "Samaria" on www.cia.gov, then tell me how many hits you get. If the CIA were endorsing the term, as your misinterpretation of the purpose of the map apparently has led you to believe, wouldn't there be at least one proper instance of "Samaria" in the entire online body of CIA papers?
• Because there is an "X Hills", there must be a place named "X"? I've already given you one counter-example, which is enough to shoot down your assumption that such a rule exists. I regret to inform you that your conclusion is a pretty basic logical fallacy.
• Owner of holy-land-landscapes.com: Moshe Kaufman, mosheko@zahav.net.il, Israel [35]. How on earth does that support your claim that the term is used outside Israel?

I will certainly try to similarly disprove a dozen more examples, if you have that many handy. Again, if you can keep your interest up, I invite you to try and support your hypothesis in accordance with WP policies. The anecdotal evidence you have produced so far hasn't done your argument much good, being much better evidence of the opposite of what you have been trying to prove. MeteorMaker (talk) 22:56, 6 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

This is a fascinating argument you are making. Can you guide me to some reliable source where I can read more about your theories regarding the term "Samaria"? Jayjg ^(talk) 00:23, 6 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

Well, try this. MeteorMaker (talk) 07:32, 6 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

Please provide a source for your specific argument regarding the name "Samaria". Jayjg ^(talk) 13:02, 6 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

My specific argument is that if you want to introduce terminology that is completely at odds with all other encyclopedias and apparent modern usage, you will have to have pretty good sources. Wikipedia's rules for determining if a toponym enjoys widespread acceptance in English can be read here. All I ask of you is that you apply the rules and see if you can find support for your hypothesis that "Samaria" is a modern toponym outside Israel. MeteorMaker (talk) 13:31, 6 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

However, in the real world, I'm not trying to "introduce" any terminology; rather, you have made claims about the terms "Judea" and "Samaria" that you have failed to back up with reliable sources. Jayjg ^(talk) 01:18, 7 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

In the real world, the idea that Samaria "is" and not "was" is unique to Wikipedia [36] and has clearly been introduced by certain editors.

Again, I'm not making claims, so I don't have to prove anything. I'm only asking for evidence that your hypothesis is not original research, and drawing conclusions from the material you produce. You wanted to prove that "Samaria" is a widespread modern toponym outside Israel, you presented 11 examples of which 9 were by Israelis, and two misrepresented ones where the author consistently uses the accepted terms "the West Bank" and "Palestine" instead. If that isn't failure to back up one's claims, the word "failure" must have been similarly redefined lately. MeteorMaker (talk) 07:57, 7 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

I have no hypothesis, nor have I attempted to prove anything. You, on the other hand, have a hypothesis that "Samaria" is "not a modern toponym", and have used all sorts of original research to prove your claim. Please stop playing games. Thanks. Jayjg ^(talk) 08:05, 7 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

If you haven't attempted to prove anything, why did you post 11 links to alleged examples of non-Israelis using the term "Samaria" for the modern West Bank? MeteorMaker (talk) 08:33, 7 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

Because you kept promoting the unsourced theory that "Samaria" was not a "modern toponym,[37][38], and then attempted to excise from Wikipedia all existing uses of "Samaria" as a "modern toponym", in order to support your ideological campaign. Please desist from further game playing. Thanks. Jayjg ^(talk) 08:48, 7 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

So, since you now say you have attempted to prove something anyway, doesn't your complete failure to do so say something about the veracity of the thing you were trying to prove? MeteorMaker (talk) 08:53, 7 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

Um, I didn't say I attempted to prove anything. Rather, I posted links which disproved your theory, and decisively and rather devastatingly at that. Jayjg ^(talk) 08:57, 7 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

By showing evidence of the opposite of what you were trying to prove? Or do you contend that the vast majority of your links, purportedly demonstrating widespread use of the term "Samaria" outside Israel, were not by Israelis?MeteorMaker (talk) 09:02, 7 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

LOL! Please review loaded question. Jayjg ^(talk) 09:36, 7 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

And you take a look at red herring. It's not a loaded question to give you another chance to defend your argument. How you can claim victory in a debate when all your arguments have been so conclusively refuted is admittedly a little difficult to understand. Again, what conclusions do you draw from the fact that close to 90% of your examples turned out to show the exact opposite of what you wanted them to prove? MeteorMaker (talk) 09:52, 7 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

Ah, but it is a loaded question when you try to get me to defend your argument, which the links I brought so conclusively disproved. Unlike you, I have not been trying to prove a theory, and you have still failed to find any reliable sources to back yours. Jayjg ^(talk) 13:03, 7 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

Nobody has defended what you call "my argument" so efficiently as you, since you not only failed to find even the weakest anecdotal evidence for your hypothesis, you in fact delivered evidence against it, and not even a ton of red herrings can hide that fact. Again, since you maintain that your links support your position that the term "Samaria" is used outside Israel, do you contend that 9 out of 11 were not by Israelis? MeteorMaker (talk) 13:28, 7 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

How odd; not only are you promoting a thesis based on your original research, and again asking leading questions, but you're even denying your thesis, even as you promote it. Very strange. Jayjg ^(talk) 05:20, 9 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

Strange indeed, nothing you said in that post has the remotest connection to reality. Feel free to try and back up your allegations with something. MeteorMaker (talk) 10:54, 9 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

Some new relevant material has been posted here. You might want to take a look. MeteorMaker (talk) 14:43, 7 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

(Reposted from the Judea & Samaria talk page:) To avoid further accusations of "original research", here's what the other online encyclopedias say about "Samaria":

Britannica Concise Encyclopedia:

Samaria, central region, ancient Palestine. Extending about 40 mi (65 km) north-south and 35 mi (55 km) east-west, it was bounded by Galilee to the north, Judaea to the south, the Mediterranean Sea to the west, and the Jordan River to the east. It corresponds roughly to the northern portion of the modern West Bank territory.

The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language:

Samaria, an ancient city of central Palestine in present-day northwest Jordan (Pre-67 edition - MM). It was founded in the ninth century B.C. as the capital of the northern kingdom of Israel, also known as Samaria.

Columbia Encyclopedia:

Samaria, ancient city, central Palestine, on a hill NW of Nablus (Shechem). The site is now occupied by a village, Sabastiyah (West Bank).

Encarta:

Samaria, ancient city and state in Palestine, located north of present-day Jerusalem, east of the Mediterranean Sea. [...] In modern times, a sect of Samaritans practices a religion similar to that of the biblical Jews, with some admixture of Islam. Few in number, they make their home around their ancient temple site of Mount Gerizim, near modern Nābulus, in the area now known as the West Bank.

Concise Dictionary of World Place-Names:

Samaria, Samaria, (Hebrew: Shomron), West Bank. The central region of ancient Palestine and its capital, now called Sabasṭiyah.

Re the usage domain of the terms "Judea" and "Samaria": Encyclopedia Britannica Online says:

West Bank, area of the former British-mandated (1920–47) territory of Palestine west of the Jordan River, claimed from 1949 to 1988 as part of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan but occupied from 1967 by Israel. The territory, excluding East Jerusalem, is also known within Israel by its biblical names, Judaea and Samaria.

Columbia Encyclopedia says:

West Bank, territory, formerly part of Palestine, after 1949 administered by Jordan, since 1967 largely occupied by Israel (2005 est. pop. 2,386,000)[...] Israelis who regard the area as properly Jewish territory often refer to it by the biblical names of Judaea and Samaria.

MeteorMaker (talk) 19:51, 8 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

Oddly enough, none of the sources you've brought make the claim that "Samaria" is "not a modern toponym". In fact, that appears to be a theory you have invented entirely on your own. While I've noticed the facile way you reject all material that refutes your theory, insisting that it is Israeli (and so, presumably, disqualified for some inexplicable reason), or tainted in some way by Israeliness, or is really intended in a Biblical sense (though the author never gives any indication of this "intent"), I'm still mildly curious as to what spurious equivocations you would use to reject the following sources, which, of course, also destroy your theory:

• "Its intention was to establish a Jewish settlement in the heart of Samaria, the northern bulge of the West Bank, densely populated by Arabs." Ian Lustick For the Land and the Lord: Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel, Council on Foreign Relations, 1988, p. 45.
• "Few in number until the late 1970s, the young Gush Emunim settlements in Samaria, the Etzion bloc, and Kiryat Arba attracted the most idealistic and dynamic fundamentalist activists." Ian Lustick For the Land and the Lord: Jewish Fundamentalism in Israel, Council on Foreign Relations, 1988, p. 54.
• "Rabin intended the settlement to be temporary and to relocate them later within the confines of the Allon plan, not in the heart of Samaria. The settlers, however, refused to move." Roger Friedland, Richard D. Hecht. To Rule Jerusalem, Cambridge University Press, 1996, p. 170.
• "The row houses of Ofra, a Jewish suburb to the north of Jerusalem, are planted in deep red soil at the foot of Ba'al Hatzor, the highest mountain in Samaria." Roger Friedland, Richard D. Hecht. To Rule Jerusalem, Cambridge University Press, 1996, p. 213.
• "In August 2005, reversing his longstanding position on championing settlement of the Land of Israel, Sharon evacuated all of the Jewish settlements in Gaza (some 9,000 people living in twenty-one communities) and four small settlements in the northern part of Samaria (West Bank)." Alfred J. Kolatch. Inside Judaism: The Concepts, Customs, and Celebrations of the Jewish People, Jonathan David Company, 2006, p. 270.
• "On 18 September 1978, one day after the signing of the Accord, 700 Gush Emunim members established an unauthorized settlement in Samaria..." Lilly Weisbrod. Israeli Identity: In Search of a Successor to the Pioneer, Tsabar and Settler, Routledge, 2002, p. 112.

Have fun! Jayjg ^(talk) 05:20, 9 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

I believe you need more than a few weak anecdotal examples to trump what is explicitly stated in all other online encyclopedias: That "Samaria" is a term for the ancient region, supplanted by the West Bank, but revived (or still used) in Israel, particularly by expansionists. Until you can produce something that explicitly contradicts the sources I presented above, plus Lustick, Kolatch, and every other scholar that has been brought up in this discussion (by yourself no less), you don't need to bother with scouring the web for whatever scattered instances of "Samaria" you can find to boldly misconstrue.

I see you're so short of examples that you even decided to reuse some that have already been refuted, your first two in this batch, by Ian Lustick. See above for details. In Inside Judaism, Kolatch, like Lustick, confirms what we already know, that the term "Samaria" has a somewhat limited usage domain:

[...]the building of Jewish communities in the West Bank — or Judea and Samaria, as Jews refer to it — commenced.[39]

And, following your bizarre and somewhat counterproductive tradition of presenting Israeli sources as evidence of use of the term "Samaria" by non-Israelis, you present yet another Israeli source: Lilly Weissbrod [40].

Again, see if you can find support for your hypothesis using established Wikipedia methodology instead of resorting to creative misrepresentation of sources and cites that turn out to constitute counterevidence. MeteorMaker (talk) 09:53, 9 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

Ah, I was wondering what spurious equivocations you would use to reject the sources, and you've come through with flying colors! Bravo, for predictability, if nothing else. Regarding Lustick and Kolatch, both note the phrase "Judea and Samaria" is preferred by some Israelis or Jews, but they also uses the term "Samaria" independently to refer to a specific region, and make no claim that it is similarly restricted in usage. As for the rest, contrary to your argument, your sources in no way claim that Samaria is not a "modern toponym"; indeed, they make no reference at all to this argument. Please review WP:SYNTH; you are drawing a novel conclusion based on your interpretation of the way some sources use the term. In addition, you have added a new theory, that the term is not "widely understood"; this, despite the fact that there are literally hundreds of modern sources that use the term to refer to the region. Now, you try to buttress your theory by claiming that the sources are all "Israeli", or were born in Israel, or some such; however, that in no way vitiates the fact that the sources were published in English, for non-Israeli audiences. They include Dutch scientific journals, top quality books from North American university presses, etc. You cannot modify English terminology so suit either your political agenda or your original research. Jayjg ^(talk) 18:37, 9 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

Well, Jayg, I have presented half a dozen exceptionally reliable sources, all established encyclopedias or well-respected scholars, that explicitly say that "Samaria" is an ancient region, that the modern toponym is the West Bank, and that the only place where they still call the place "Samaria" is Israel. You have responded with a handful of self-contradicting anecdotal evidence and liberal amounts of wikilawyering to try and force through your unsourced original research fringe theory that "Samaria" is a widespread toponym outside Israel. May I again suggest that you take a moment to ponder the implications of the fact that your pet theory so completely lacks support in the real world, and perhaps consider the possibility that you might be wrong, as wrong as you were when you thought it would be a picknick to find support for it. MeteorMaker (talk) 20:54, 9 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

You have shown how a few sources use the term, and then tried to build a theory about it based on that. I have, in turn, provided many examples of usage that contradict your theory, which you have ignored, misrepresented, or in other ways abused, using liberal amounts of wikilawyering to try and force through your unsourced original research fringe theory that "Samaria" is not a widely understood toponym. Please stop abusing Wikipedia policies, and please make more accurate talk page statements in the future. Thanks. Jayjg ^(talk) 23:03, 9 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

(Outdent) Since the argumentation seems to be heating up to the point of losing connection with reality, maybe this is a good opportunity to recapitulate and sum up the actual verifiable points of the argument up until this point.

>> My position: The article should express the idea that "Samaria" (outside the undisputed historical domain) is an Israel-specific toponym.

Supported by: All other major online encyclopedias [41][42][43][44]. Among other reliable sources that support it, we find a literally thousands of news articles (typical sample here: ^[1][2]) and books by noted scholars ^[3][45][46].

My compliance with WP rules: I have applied WP's established methodology for determining if a place name is accepted in English:

1. Consult English-language encyclopedias (we recommend Encyclopedia Britannica, Columbia Encyclopedia, Encarta, each as published after 1993). If the articles in these agree on using a single name in discussing the period, it is the widely accepted English name. All agree on West Bank, none says that "Samaria" is anything else than the ancient region (and a term used in Israel by people who regard the West Bank as a part of Israel). Details, see above.
2. Consult Google Scholar and Google Books hits (count only articles and books, not number of times the word is used in them) when searched over English language articles and books where the corresponding location is mentioned in relation to the period in question.[...] If the name is used at least three times as often as any other, in referring to the period, it is widely accepted. Result, Google Books (English, published after 1993): West Bank, 29,200 hits. Samaria: 2,530. If we check the first 100, the overwhelming majority are about Bible-age Samaria, and the rest, with one possible exception, are written by Israelis. Result, Google Scholar (published after 1993): West Bank, 21,000 hits. Samaria: 10,800. Of the first 100, the overwhelming majority are people named Samaria, a dozen about the rare earth metal samarium, a few are about Bible-age Samaria, and the rest are written by Israelis.
3. Consult major news sources, either individually, or by using Lexis-Nexis, if accessible. If they agree in using a given name, it is widely accepted.

A Lexis-Nexis search was carried out by User:CasualObserver'48 and posted here. A check of four individual major news sources:

• BBC: "West Bank", 32,300 hits [47]. "Samaria", 408 hits [48].
• CNN: "West Bank", 19,900 hits [49], "Samaria", 168 [50]
• FoxNews: "West Bank", 35,800 hits [51], "Samaria", 50 [52]
• Reuters: "West Bank", 237,000 hits [53], "Samaria", 129 [54]

A cursory check of a sample (the first 50) from the hits for "Samaria" reveals that they are either about people, ships, or other places named Samaria, the historical region Samaria, orgs with "Samaria" in their names, or they are from quotes or letters to the editor by Israelis. Articles generally point out that "Samaria" and "Judea" are indigenous Israeli terms for the West Bank, and it's worth noting that the terms are also generally postfixed with "(West Bank)" in the news articles, to avoid confusion about the exact geographical location.

>> Jayjg's position: The article should not express the idea that "Samaria" (outside the undisputed historical domain) is an Israel-specific toponym. Supported by: No reliable sources (or indeed any sources) have been presented that explicitly support that idea. Lacking that, Jayjg has synthesized an argument by compiling anecdotal evidence: a list of fourteen googled instances of alleged non-Israeli use of the term. When scrutinized, ten of these 14 were conclusively shown to be of Israeli origin, the other four use "West Bank" consistently except in a few cases that Jayjg contends constitutes examples of non-Israeli use. Four of these four sources explicitly support the opposite notion, that "Samaria" is an Israel-only term. [55][56][57][58]

Jayjg's compliance with WP rules: Jayg has repeatedly been encouraged to use WP's established methodology for determining if a place name is accepted in English. Each time, the request has been ignored. When reliable sources have been provided that contradict Jayjg's position, Jayjg has consistently responded with bizarre accusations of "original research", edit wars, and refusal to accept even verbatim quotes from the sources. It's hard to escape the conclusion that there might be a certain amount of fanaticism at work here. MeteorMaker (talk) 14:25, 10 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

Thank you for spelling this out, because it clearly shows what is wrong with the edits you are making. You state, above, that your position is "The article should express the idea that "Samaria" (outside the undisputed historical domain) is an Israel-specific toponym.". In order to support this position, you need to do one simple thing: Find a reliable source that says '"Samaria" (outside the undisputed historical domain) is an Israel-specific toponym.' That is what Jayjg has consistently asked you to do, and what you have consistently failed to do. Instead of doing this, you've engaged in original research, including the Google search you describe above that purports to show that "West Bank" is a term found more often on the web than "Samaria", or other original research into various encyclopedias that use the term Samaria in the historical context. And you've of course engaged in some ridiculous argumentative original research to discount every single instance presented to you of the term being used outside of Israel, and outside of the historical context.

What you fail to understand is that the guidelines you are quoting relate to naming conventions for geographic names, but the POV you are pushing has nothing to do with the most common name used for a geographical region. Once again: Samaria is not an alternate name for "West Bank" or even "Northern West Bank", and Judea is not an alternate name for "West Bank" or even "Southern West Bank". The "West Bank" is a political term, used to describe the territories previously under Jordanian occupation that Israel captured in the Six Day war. Samaria (and Judea) on the other hand, is the name of a geographical region, with specific topological and climatological attributes. There is a large overlap between the geographical area of Samaria and the Northern West Bank (and between Judea and the Southern West Bank), but they are not the same thing. To wit: The Northern West Bank includes a large swath of land along the Jordan river basin, from south of Bet She'an to Jericho - this land is part of the Jordan Rift Valley, but not a part of Samaria. Conversely, Wadi Ara is a valley which is in Samaria, but not in the West Bank . This is made very clear in the case of the village of Baqa al-Gharbiyye, which is in Samaria just like its across-the-fence sister village of Baqa ash-Sharqiyya, but while the latter is also in the West Bank, the former is not.

You have consistently failed to distinguish between the terms "Judea" and "Samaria" and the term "Judea and Samaria". The latter is a political term, just like "West Bank", and is indeed commonly in use by right-wing Israelis and other pro-Israeli advocates as an alternative name for "West Bank". Wikipedia recognizes this in the West Bank article, which is named, "West Bank" and not "Judea and Samaria", per the guidelines you quote on common names. These same guidelines also dictate that on the English wiki, we call the "Samaria" article "Samaria", and not "Shomron" or "Sebastia", and the "Judea" article "Judea", and not "Judaea" or "Yehuda", which are alternate, but less common names for the same thing. But these guidelines do not mean that we substitute a political designation ("West Bank") for a geographical region (Samaria), when the two are not the same. Canadian Monkey (talk) 18:55, 10 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

There isn't exactly a shortage of cites that explicitly say the term "Samaria" is Israel (or Jewish, or settler)-specific. If you read the last couple of posts I made, you'll find several examples, both quoted and linked. It's safe to say that it's sufficiently well supported with literally thousands of reliable sources that all state this explicitly. Unless you intend to join Jayjg in his Wikilawyering and deny the facts, you can't say it's POV pushing or OR.

You keep stating that Samaria (and Judea) are geographical names (presumably in widespread use in the English language), but the sources simply don't support that view. After checking thousands of sources, I have not been able to find more than a few scattered instances of the word used that way (disregarding Israeli sources). I invite you to repeat the analysis, using recommended WP methodology and see if you can find support for it. Or better, reliable sources that directly support your position. MeteorMaker (talk) 19:58, 10 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

Allow me to remind editors here what wikipedia is WP:NOT. It is not an advocacy tool and I request that sensitive issues be addressed with neutrality. Cheers, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 10:26, 9 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

To me "annexationist" sounds perfectly neutral. What term do you suggest we use, seeing that reliable sources confirm that "Samaria" is a non-English group-specific term? MeteorMaker (talk) 10:33, 9 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

I disagree with both your presentation of what constitutes a neutral and/or reliable as well as the recent WP:TE violation. It matters not if a source uses "terrorist" or "annexationists". These are not considered wiki-neutral and are, in fact, not only pushing an agenda but are also undue for the lead. Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 22:57, 9 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

Actually, you haven't provided any reliable sources yet that have stated anything about "non-English group-specific terms". In the future please make accurate talk page comments, thanks. Jayjg ^(talk) 22:58, 9 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

Jaakobou, is it the term "annexationist" you find POV, or stating the fact that many Israelis who describe themselves as belonging to that category use the toponym "Samaria" for the modern West Bank? MeteorMaker (talk) 16:06, 10 November 2008 (UTC)Reply

Uh, Judea and Samaria Area is the official Israeli (government) name for the region which is almost identical to the region called "West Bank" (you can see the difference here). I'm not sure how "annexationism" (what a weird term) became part of this conversation, but it's certainly a loaded term which should not be used, similar to 'Palestinian terrorist', 'Israeli colony', etc. -- Ynhockey ^(Talk) 20:52, 10 November 2008 (UTC)Reply