Talk:Shasu: Difference between revisions - Wikipedia

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== Do we know anything else about the Shasu? ==

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== Exodus of Shasu. ==

There was an uprising of an alleged 200,000 Shasu ~~attckers~~attackers and their allies along the border of Egypt and Sinai mentioned on inscriptions from Karnak. Seti I routed them into Canaan, along with his son Ramesses II c. 1300 to 1290 bc.

This group likely included Apiru ndand Shasu who worhsiped "Ywh" and later settled into Edom (Midian), and the Arabah, their original homeland. Later on some of these Shasu and Apiru settled into the Canaanite highlands and formed an ethnic identity of 'Israel' in the hills of Judah.

about 80 or 90 years after this massive war between the Shasu and Seti/Ramesses, we have Merenptah batteling the people of Israel in the higlands of Judah c. 1210.

The fact that Apiru and Shasu were slaves of War in Egypt's captivity c. 1500-1200 seems to suggest there is ~~atleast~~at least a historical plausibility behind the stories of "Hebrews" and nomads in bondage in Egypt. Indeed, if the Apiru(Habiru), included the hebrews of the bible, then we do have some nuggets of historical likeliness.--[[User:207.225.65.89|207.225.65.89]] 05:42, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

== Reply to above comment about Shasu ==

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''This group likely included Apiru nd Shasu who worhsiped "Ywh" and later settled into Edom (Midian), and the Arabah, their original homeland. Later on some of these Shasu and Apiru settled into the Canaanite highlands and formed an ethnic identity of 'Israel' in the hills of Judah.''

Midian is in Northwest Arabia, there are archeological proofs that Midian was only inhabited from 1300 to 1100 BCE. This corroborates the bible story (first when Moshe ~~live~~lived with Jethro and second when he led the ~~hebrews~~Hebrews to Mt Sinai).

Moreover, Redford's idea about the origin of Biblical YHWH with a group called "Yhw in the land of Shasu" is pure speculation. The Shasu might well be the ~~biblical~~Biblical Sinaite Susim (speculation again !). Yhw could be a chief, an Egyptian toponym, or a further ethnonym. We ~~dont~~don't know if the Shasu worshipped only one god (this is very unlikely for a nomadic tribe). There is no evidence of Shasu people settling toin Judea before Merenptha.

--[[User:Squallgreg|Squallgreg]] 18:38, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

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== Rainey ==

To reiterate my edit summary, I removed the Rainey quote saying "I'm not sure why this was put here as it is covered earlier, and using better sources than BAR". It was inappropriately placed, and although BAR meets our criteria as a reliable source, any scholar of the ANE knows that there are much more reliable sources and that BAR isn't exactly without an agenda. The new edit using Rainey is much better as it is placed in the correct context and has a bit more detail. The edit summary saying "To reject a relevant source is a violation of NPOV. The Amarna letters are not ~~mentionned~~mentioned elsewhere" misrepresents my reason for removing Rainey originally. And there can be good reasons to reject a relevant source that todo not fall foul of our guidance on NPOV, but that isn't what's happened here anyway. [[User:Dougweller|dougweller]] ([[User talk:Dougweller|talk]]) 20:01, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

==Current edits==

I'm working on this again but not at home where I have better access to sources. I may have been to hasty in using the reference I just did, as I see the author is a geologist and reading further I'm very dubious about her qualifications to make the claims she does. There are some sources from the early 70s, eg Lipinski, but I prefer to use later sources. EG this pdf [http://russellbadams.brinkster.net/publications/LeDavidMaskil.pdf], Thompson's ''Early history of the Israelite people''

[http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Ld8xrjTjGSAC&pg=PA303&lpg=PA303&dq=shasu+giveon&source=bl&ots=VavtqPJKeq&sig=5ZURo04H2eyCp7YW8cHpeiHTGa0&hl=en&ei=zmF1SqbdO9mSjAeHqOmnBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=4#v=onepage&q=shasu%20%20&f=false]. amd ''Ancient Ammon'' [http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=5Sm7BOubDYcC&pg=PA206&dq=%22Shasu+of+Seir%22&as_brr=3&ei=DV51SprxDJKOyAS4lZ3cAg&client=firefox-a#v=onepage&q=Shasu&f=false]. [[User:Dougweller|Dougweller]] ([[User talk:Dougweller|talk]]) 10:13, 2 August 2009 (UTC)

== Ahlström ==

Found this snippet: The History of Ancient Palestine from the Palaeolithic ... - Page 277 https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=hMVtAAAAMAAJ Gösta Werner Ahlström, ‎Gary Orin Rollefson, ‎Diana Vikander Edelman - 1993 - ‎Snippet view - ‎

Gösta Werner Ahlström, Gary Orin Rollefson, Diana Vikander Edelman ... "when several new settlements were built.6 Thus, these Shasu, together with everybody else who lived in the hills, later became what is known as Israelites." But we can't use snippets. [[User:Doug Weller|Doug Weller]] [[User talk:Doug Weller|talk]] 13:36, 7 April 2016 (UTC)

== Shasu hieroglyphs ==

Has anyone checked those hieroglyphs for accuracy? [[User:Temerarius|Temerarius]] ([[User talk:Temerarius|talk]]) 22:44, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

== Should the lead be summaric or not? ==

{{ping|SpikeToronto}} A few weeks ago, you [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shasu&diff=prev&oldid=1194282462 added] a {{tp|who}} to the lead. Now, in my opinion, the lead should contain a brief summary of the main topics in the main text; whence in general it should ''not'' be as detailed as the article itself. Hence, I think, the summaric facts stated in the lead should not always be ''explained'' or ''verified'' in the lead, if there are adequate and easily found such explanations and verifications in the text proper. Your "who" question is a typical example; if you read the article, you quickly find your question amply answered.

If you agree, I think that the "who" template just could be removed. Regards, [[User:JoergenB|JoergenB]] ([[User talk:JoergenB|talk]]) 11:46, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

:{{ping|JoergenB}} There are citations throughout the article introduction, in keeping with [[WP:LEDECITE]]. In fact, that line is just about the only unreferenced part of the lead. I found the statement controversial, and as such the [[WP:LEADCITE|policy regarding citations in the lead]] would suggest that at least one citation supporting the statement would be appropriate. Thanks!{{smiley}} — [[User:SpikeToronto|Spike]][[User talk:SpikeToronto|Toronto]] 06:49, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

::{{ping|SpikeToronto}} Thanks for your explanation!

::IMHO, the fact that other parts of the lead might be regarded as a bit 'over-sourced' is no real argument in this context. (This quite probably is due to the kind of good faith but perhaps slightly overzealous editing discussed in the last paragraph of [[WP:LEADCITE]].) On the other hand, the fact that at least one editor of good standing found the statement controversial definitely is a real (and IMHO decisive) argument. However, this leaves us with a problem.

::It would of course be possible just to add (copies of) the links to Redford and Rainey, respectively, and elsewise leave that lead sentence unchanged. However, I think that this would give undue weight to their respective arguments. In the article, as you can see, Redford's and Rainey's arguments and conclusions are presented (separately); but so are counterarguments by other scholars (and the other views in total are clearly given more weight in the present article, I should say). It also would be possible to expand that lead sentence to some 'on the one hand... but on the other...'; but this is a move in the direction I would like to avoid; to cram all article content into the lead.

::One somewhat unorthodox solution might be to leave the short sentence as it is, and just add a "reference" to the relevant section; possibly in the form of a footnote. Now, in general, we also don't expand or replace the lead by a 'Content'; we rather rely on the automatic software content extraction of the section and subsection headings. In this case, perhaps an exception could be motivated by the fact that the section title does not explicitly inform the reader that this be the right place to look.

::So, {{ping|SpikeToronto|p=,}} would it be sufficient from your point of view just to add the following as a footnote?

::::So, e.g., [[Donald B. Redford|D. B. Redford]][reference] and [[Anson Rainey|A. F. Rainey]][reference]; this is discussed in the section [[Shasu#Shasu of Yhw]].

::Regards, [[User:JoergenB|JoergenB]] ([[User talk:JoergenB|talk]]) 11:28, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

:::Thank you, {{ping|JoergenB|p=}}! How about no citation and something along these lines (please forgive the deficient "literary-ness" of the example): '''''Some scholars link the Israelites and Yahweh with the Shasu, while others find this theorised linkage objectionable.''''' Thanks!{{smiley}} — [[User:SpikeToronto|Spike]][[User talk:SpikeToronto|Toronto]] 15:31, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

:::'''P.S.''' I very much appreciate the analysis you provided above. It was very useful! — [[User:SpikeToronto|Spike]][[User talk:SpikeToronto|Toronto]] 15:34, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

::::{{ping|SpikeToronto}} Well, perhaps; but this does introduce a bit of that 'on the one hand... but on the other...' kind of discussion I would prefer to avoid in the lead. If you just want to ensure that the reader understands that this is contested, couldn't we just write '''''A few (but far from all) scholars link the Israelites and Yahweh with the Shasu'''''? [[User:JoergenB|JoergenB]] ([[User talk:JoergenB|talk]]) 22:11, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

:::::{{ping|JoergenB}} Perfect!{{smiley}} — [[User:SpikeToronto|Spike]][[User talk:SpikeToronto|Toronto]] 03:13, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

::::::{{done}} [[User:JoergenB|JoergenB]] ([[User talk:JoergenB|talk]]) 13:53, 22 February 2024 (UTC)