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Y

See the discussion 'Why was the "Onam and Islam" section added?' which shows there would be great opposition in merging the article Onam and Muslims with Onam.

D

Onam is not a Hindu religious festival. Points

  • Kerala State (Not a Hindu only State) recognized it as a state festival.
  • People from all religions are celebrating this festival
  • Myths are associated with Buddism, Cheraman Perumal Victory etc. Which are not directly related to Hindu mythology.
  • It is proven that it is a harvest festival not associated with any ritual of Hindu temple or religion.

Also .... removed a reference of peer reviewed journal reference. So We need a much clear verdict here.

  • Whether Kerala or any part of the world or universe is not a "Hindu only state/place" does not make something associated with Hinduism, not part of Hinduism, if it is really associated with Hinduism.
  • Whether Kerala or any part of the world or the universe has recognised something contradictory to the reality does not change the reality.
  • Whether people from all religions celebrate any particular religious celebration does not make the religious celebration a non-religious one.
  • If any non-Hindu myths apart from the Hindu one, for example the Buddhist one, are associated with Onam, then it makes Onam associated with that particular religion one also, here Buddhism. As for the argument that Cheraman Perumal's victory is associated with Onam, it is not clear how it makes Onam non-related to Hinduism. However, the Cheraman Perumal argument does not negate the matter that Onam is far more related to Hinduism than any other religions.
  • It could be proved numerous sources say Onam is related to Hinduism. It could also be proved Onam is associated with a particular ritual of Hindu temple and Hinduism. Harvest or non-harvest festivals could also be religious ones too. However, it seems Onam is far more related to cultural activities related to Hinduism than being a harvest festival of Hinduism.

j

This source of M. A. Abdul Qadir Musliyar of the AP faction says, at the 51:37 mark, that the Samastha's call to avoid attending the Ernakulam conference is not applicable to "us" since "we" have not participated in the meeting.

D

Unlike Christmas and other non-Muslim religious festivals, Onam is widely said to be celebrated by followers of all religions, including Muslims, though according to the overwhelming majority of Muslims in Kerala, Islam is against celebrating Onam. Besides, the Onam celebration by Muslims is widely criticised by Islamic scholars. So, a writing on this is necessary. The proposed merger might reduce the amount of the content taken to Onam from the article Onam and Muslims, and thus, not satisfying the curiousity of the readers to know the all and clear Islamic rulings on the issue. This is because several people apparently seem to think almost all Muslims or Islam is not against the Onam celebration by Muslims. This is understandable as the following sources say the Muslims celebrate Onam: Google search results for "Onam and Islam", 1—Schooling the National Imagination, 2—Journal of Kerala Studies, 3—The Neighborhood of Gods, 4—Fun with Festivals, 5—The Issues and Themes of Indian Politics, 6—Social Science Success Book 6 (A.Y. 2023-24) Onward, 7—Struggling with History, 8—Rituals and Practices in World Religions, 9—Annual Report on International Religious Freedom, 2004, 10—When Peacocks Dance, 11—Kerala District Gazetteers: Alleppey. In conclusion, Onam is not like other non-Muslim religious festivals like Christmas. Thus, a clarification is needed for Onam specially. So, I contradict your argument stating the "general rule".

Y

The following may not be relevant in determining which Samastha is the real one. Perhaps, the only thing that would be relevant in deciding which Samastha is the real or original one is the legality, such as being in the government records as the continuation of the Samastha registered in 1934. It seems we cannot arbitrarily decide which Samastha is real.

It seems EK Samastha claims to having the pre-1989-Samastha-split legacy for the following organisations and the periodical:

  • 1) SYS (1)
  • 2) Samastha Kerala Islam Matha Vidhyabhyasa Board (1)
  • 3) Samastha Kerala Jam’eyyat ul-Mu’allimeen Central Council (1)
  • 4) Sunni Mahallu Federation (1)
  • 5) This blog post, having an inside view of the EK faction, says Al-Mu'allim was published in 1959. Now the EK faction has a periodical named Al-Mu'allim.
  • 6) This blogpost source, leaning to the EK faction, seems to say Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Mufathisheen has the pre-1989-Samastha-split legacy. This source of Abdussad Pookkottur of the EK faction says (archived) Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Mufathisheen was founded in 1960 at the 18:00 mark.
  • As a side note, this source of the EK faction's Suprabhaatham, whose author is not given, says the EK faction had to keep 6 people away because of some problems in 1989. Note this EK faction source does not say the EK faction expelled the AP faction leaders.
  • It seems the EK faction says EK Samastha's flag has not changed, though Abdussamad Pookkottur, belonging to the EK faction, is apparently saying of taking the flag from those who (might be the AP faction) dirty it. From a statement of Abdussamad Pookkottur in this YouTube video (archived), we can understand that the EK faction currently does not use the original flag of the Samastha and that the original flag could be that of the AP Samastha since Abdussamad Pookkottur says the colours of the original flag are green, saffron and white. See AP Samastha's flag here.
  • Maybe SEA, since the EK faction says they also have an organisation known as SEA. This source of Abdussad Pookkottur of the EK faction says (archived) the employees association under Samastha was founded in 2001 at the 18:00 mark.

While it seems AP Samastha claims the same legacy for the following organisations and periodicals and the flag of Samastha:

  • Though the AP faction has an organisation with a similar name [Samastha Kerala Sunni Jam-iyyathul Muallimeen (SKSJM)], they apparently do not claim the pre-1989-Samasth-split legacy
  • The AP faction says it is the AP faction's Samastha that has been in the registrar office.
  • The AP faction says all popular organisations stood with the AP faction at the time of the Samastha's split in 1989. (1—Facebook post)
  • The AP faction also claims to have upheld the ideology of Samastha at the time of the said split of Samastha in 1989.(1—Facebook post)
  • T. C. Usthad, belonging to the AP faction, says that the Samastha has not split; only one general body of the Samastha was held; no two seperate general bodies were held like two separate meetings were held when a particular political party was split. He further says that the Samastha in the registrar office is that of the AP faction

I

Thanks for the valuable comment by Soman.

As for the so-called split in 1967, this source says about the "resignation" and thus not a split according to this Malayalam Wikipedia article, while this source says clearly about walking out and the formation of a new organisation, which in turn means not a split in 1967 according to this The New Indian Express source. Note that the name of the author of the news article is not given; thus non-experts also could be the author having bias while also having less competency because of not conducting interviews of leaders of both Samasthas (who have the most authoritative knowledge about the incidents) or witnesses. M. Abdul Salam is not apparently a witness to the incidents. If M. Abdul Salam says the AP faction formed parallel ("their own") organisations, it is misleading because both the AP and EK factions apparently claim the legacy of the SYS formed before the Samastha's split of 1989, (claims by EK faction: 1; claims by AP faction: 1, 2), the organisation for the youth. Besides, SKSSF of the EK faction was founded, after the Samastha's split in 1989; while its AP faction counterpart, SSF, had been formed, well before the same split. SSF and SKSSF are for students. It is especially noteworthy since both these two types of organisations (for the youth and students) are apparently the most visible ones of both Samasthas, because some jubilees or anniversaries of these organisations—SYS (AP faction) [1], SYS (EK faction), SSF [1] and SKSSF [1]—are conducted. However, there could be any organisation, such as Samastha Kerala Sunni Vidhyabhyasa Board, formed by the AP faction directly as a result of the 1989 Samastha split. Hence what the author can only do legitimately is to present different opinions, which could be done by relying on witnesses. Furthermore, the M. Abdul Salam's book seems to be too old (published in 1998), probably at a time when there was much more hatred and conflict between the AP and EK factions so that the EK faction would likely say the EK faction ousted the AP faction leaders from Samastha besides other things. In addition, it seems the author wrote the book based on EK faction's claims. In my opinion, the book is not reliable due to lack of neutrality, maybe because it is not (if it is so) presenting the views of witnesses from both sides.

A group of Sunni leaders led by Aboobacker Musliar had broken away from the Samastha Kerala Jamiyyathul Ulama following organisational disagreement in 1989 and given shape to a Samastha of their own. Since then, the State has had two Samasthas known after their leaders.

That means only two organisations are known as "Samastha". Above all, Najeeb Moulavi, a prominent leader of Kerala Samasthana Jem-iyyathul Ulama, in this this Malayalam YouTube video at the 38:00 mark, says the president of Samastha left Samastha and Kerala Samsthana Jem-iyyathul Ulama was founded.

As a side note, this The New Indian Express source says:

He (Kanthapuram) said had they gone after the controversies over the Samastha in the last several years, the community would not have made any advancements in education.

That means the AP faction is not as strong as the EK faction in claiming the legacy of the Samastha founded in 1926. The EK faction is so assertive in claiming the legacy of the Samastha founded in 1926 that they conducted the centenary declaration conference in Bengaluru, which is outside Kerala, while the EK Samastha's name includes "Kerala" and the full name as per the EK Samastha's website means "All Kerala Ulama Organisation"; after the promulgation conference by the AP faction in Kasaragod. This difference in the attitude of the AP faction and the EK faction would make writers on the subject more biased towards EK faction's claims, since the writers become more exposed to the claims of the EK faction. The EK faction now says AP faction leaders left the Samastha, rather than saying the Samastha ousted the AP faction leaders.

As for the matter of the ousting, it is worth reading what this The New Indian Express report says:

... Thangal (Jifri Muthukoya Thangal) said those are the people who left the organisation and started parallel activities.

According to the AP faction, both the claims that the AP faction leaders were ousted and that the AP faction leaders left Samastha are false (as per a YouTube video of Perod Abdurrahman Saqafi, the current secretary of AP Samastha); instead, the AP faction says 11 people, (including later leaders of the Samastha led by Kanthapuram), walked out of a Samastha meeting, not Samastha, disagreeing to give consent to a demand seeking to give E. K. Aboobacker Musliyar the unchecked authority in advance to alter the minutes in whatever way. Later, according to the AP faction, (as per a YouTube video of Perod Abdurrahman Saqafi, the current secretary of AP Samastha), the Samastha was reorganised, not split; and still, according to the AP faction, (as per a YouTube video of Perod Abdurrahman Saqafi, the current secretary of AP Samastha), the Samastha in the registrar office is that of the AP faction.

Remedy

In conclusion, I recommend both Samasthas be treated equally in terms of the name, the founder, and the rest of things until the split in 1989; everywhere, including in the infobox. This is to keep neutrality, and to relieve both Samasthas of likely embarrassment, in case it turns out that a particular Samastha has been in the government records as the successor of the Samastha founded in 1926, all this while. The best option is to avoid stating, the disputed matter until the split in 1989, without the attribution.

G

Currently there are 37 citations in Onam and Muslims whereas currently in Onam there are around 64 citations. So, if merged, more than half of the number of citations (57.81%) will be solely of a section.

If we google "ഓണം ക്രിസ്തുമതത്തിൽ", which means "Onam in Christianity", we see few sources that talk about "Onam and Christianity". On the other hand, if we google "ഓണം ഇസ്ലാമിൽ", which means "Onam in Islam", several sources appear. The same is case with YouTube.

Can a page have multiple requests for page move?

Can multiple controversial moves be requested for pages including a page on which there is already a request to move is present? Could anyone suggest a solution?

Remove unsourced content added by Spworld2

It seems User:Spworld2 is incorregible. Because of too much influence of a COI (WP:COI), Spworld2 would be ready to get even an indefinite block. This is because EK Samastha and its followers are strong in claiming the legacy of the Samastha founded in 1926 that they conducted the centenary declaration conference (as per a source) or the inauguration conference in Bengaluru, which is outside Kerala, while EK Samastha's name includes "Kerala" and the full name means "All Kerala Ulama Organisation" as per the EK Samastha's website; after the promulgation conference by the faction of AP Samastha in Kasaragod. Spworld2 apparently and certainly belongs to a particular type of supporters of EK Samastha who are not ready to edit neutrally or edit as per the source. So an indefinite topic ban on both Samasthas and related topics, such as its subsidiaries, would be needed. I at least seek the intervention of admins to remove the unsourced content.

Conflict of interest editing by Spworld2

Addition of unsourced content by Spworld2

  • Spworld2 also added unsourced content (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9) in the infobox that the formation of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) is in 1989 and its founder is Kanthapuram. The sources cited by Spworld2 to add 1989 as the year of formation or Kanthapuram as the founder in the infobox do not support the addition by Spworld2. These two (1, 2) are the sources Spworld2 used to add 1989 as the year of formation and Kanthapuram as the founder of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction), in the infobox. These two do not support Spworld2's claim. On the other hand, Spworld2 wants to add 1926 as the year of formation and Varakkal Mullakoya Thangal as the founder of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (EK faction) in the infobox of the article for Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (EK faction).
  • Spworld2 again wrongfully changed the year of formation of AP Samastha without citing a source. The source given does not even mention "1986".
  • Spworld2 wants to advance the position that the founder of AP Samastha is Kanthapuram A. P. Aboobacker Musliyar, without citing a source.
  • Spworld2 added the headquarters of AP Samastha as Markazu Saqafathi Sunniyya without citing a source, though this appears to be wrong since the place shown below "Samastha Kerala Jam-iyyathul Ulama" in a post of a Facebook page supporting the AP faction is "Samastha Center, Kozhikode-6".
  • Spworld2 says Kanthapuram is the founding president of AP Samastha, which must be false, not only because there could not be a single source stating Kanthapuram ever was a president of any Samastha, either before the so-called split in Samastha in 1989 or after it; but also because at the time of the reorganisation of Samastha in 1989, Kanthapuram was made the general secretary and Ullal Thangal the president.

Removal of sourced content by Spworld2

  • Spworld2 also removed content to advance the view of the people associated with EK Samastha by removing the sourced content.
  • See also this sourced content removal by Spworld2.
  • See this sourced content removal by Spworld2.
  • Spworld2 removed the sourced content about the flag of Samastha, probably to suppress the AP faction version of the narrative about the flag.
  • Spworld2 removed Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama because Spworld2 hates AP Samastha being referred to as such, though the sources given against it refer to AP Samastha as such. See what the sources also. Instead, Spworld2 replaced the term "Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama" with "All India Sunni Jamiyyathul Ulama", another organisation of AP Sunnis.
  • Soworld2 removed the sourced content, giving a false edit summary.

Unhelpful editing by Spworld2

  • Both Samasthas are known as Samastha. But Spworld2 made this unhelpful edit, by changing also known as Samastha to also known as Samastha (AP Faction) even though there are numerous sources to support it and 5 sources are present in the article to support it. Note there is not a single source that says Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) is known as "Samastha (AP Faction)" or "Samastha (AP faction)". Spworld2 apparently and probably made this edit to get a positive result to the Spworld2's move request and thus get the page moved to "Samastha (AP Faction)".
  • Spworld2 made this unhelpful edit by changing "Flag of EK Samastha" to "Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama flag". In fact, it is the flag of EK Samastha only. This edit by Spworld2 would mislead readers that there is no difference of opinion regarding the flag used by both Samasthas. In fact, AP Samastha uses a different flag. This is especially problematic since both flags appear to be the same, though there are minor differences.
  • Spworld2 removed "of EK Sunnis", which distinguishes the organisation, by this edit. In addition, Spworld2 removed the part that clarifies the misunderstanding that there are two Samasthas in the same edit.

Spworld2's character of not maintaining neutrality

Unwanted placement of clarfy tag by Spworld2

  • Though there is nothing unclear Spworld2 placed the clarify tags (1, 2), without giving a reason. Later, Spworld2 removed the content altogether just because Spworld2 hates AP Samastha and its success.

Repeated addition of EK Samastha's only position without citing source to support it, by Spworld2

Disruptive edits even after warning by Spworld2

  • Spworld2 added an unsourced content, even after getting a warning (see: 1, 2). The source says about the split of Samastha in 1989, not the formation of AP Samastha. Nor does the source say Kanthapuram is the founder of AP Samastha.

Links of previous discussions

Pages created by Spworld2

We can see the articles edited by Spworld2 here.

g

Sources that say about the split of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama in 1989

Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama, founded in 1926 was, according to several sources (1—The New Indian Express, 2—The Hindu, 3—Scroll.in, 4—onmanorama.com, 5—News18, 6—Deccan Chronicle, 7—Dool News [Wikipedia page], 8— Southlive, 9—Samakalika Malayalam [Wikipedia page]), split in 1989 into two organisations exactly with the same name the organisation had before the split. Looking at the term split linguistically, it means all the new ones formed after the split have a shared history, thus a common time of formation. Thus both Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (EK faction) and Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) are to be treated in Wikipedia equally in terms of their name, their time of formation, the founder and the rest of the matter pior to the split. Two Samasthas of EK and EK faction Sunnis claim theirs is the real Samastha. That means both do not agree the other one is real. There is a source which says the AP faction claims theirs is the real Samastha. Perod Abdurahman Saqafi, secretary of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction), says in a Malayalam YouTube video that the Samastha in the registrar office is that of the AP faction. Note that according to the AP faction, Samastha was not split but reorganised in 1989.

k

Samastha[1][2][3][4][5]

F

  • Strongly Oppose. This article was created apparently because there was a lot of vandalism on the page Onam because several people wanted to remove content that say Islam is against celebrating non-Muslims' celebrations including Onam.The article suggested for merger is notable and would avoid vandalism and there is enough reason to create a separate article. The page Onam is protected for an indefinite period because the topic is controversial. There has been vandalism on the article Onam several times. The vandals were removing the word related to Hinduism to remove mentioning the association of Onam with Hindus and Hinduism (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13). Such vandalism or disruptive edits were reverted by adding the term which shows the topic's association with Hindus and Hinduidm (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8). The section Islamic groupings in Kerala is a very needed one. Because we cannot write about AP and EK Sunnis only, there should be the description about all the groups. If merged, this section will no longer be there. Even if there is a problem with the name it could be solved by moving it to Onam and Islam or Onam and Kerala Muslims. In addition, merging it with Onam is likely to make it more prone to vandalism (see: 1, 2, 3 & 4 in the section Onam and Islam).

H

Sources that say Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) was not found in 1989

The following sources say Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama) (AP faction) is about to celebrate the centennial celebration, which means Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) was not founded in 1989 when the split happened.

  • The Hindu says Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) is about to celebrate the centenary. Thus it, like others, has accepted the claim of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction)'s right to celebrate the centennial.
  • onmanorama.com says Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) is about to celebrate the centennial celebration. Thus it, like others, has accepted the claim of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction)'s right to celebrate the centennial.
  • The New Indian Express says Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) is about to celebrate the centennial celebration. Thus it, like others, has accepted the claim of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction)'s right to celebrate the centennial.
  • The website of MediaOne says Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) is about to celebrate the centennial celebration. Thus it, like others, has accepted the claim of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction)'s right to celebrate the centennial.
  • The Times of India says about the inauguration of 99th foundation day of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction). Thus it, like others, has accepted the claim of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction)'s right to celebrate the centennial.
  • Manorama News says about beginning of the centennial celebration of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction). Thus it, like others, has accepted the claim of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction)'s right to celebrate the centennial.
  • PressReader says about Kanthapuram claiming to be the original one, and about justifying with the centennial celebration. Thus it, like others, has accepted the claim of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction)'s right to celebrate the centennial.
  • Mathrubhumi says about the centennial celebration of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction). Thus it, like others, has accepted the claim of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction)'s right to celebrate the centennial.
  • Madhyamam says about the promulgation of the centennial celebration of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction). Thus it, like others, has accepted the claim of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction)'s right to celebrate the centennial.
  • malabarnews.com says about the promulgation of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction)'s centennial celebration. Thus it, like others, has accepted the claim of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction)'s right to celebrate the centennial.
  • ETV Bharat says about the declaration of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction). Thus ETV Bharat like several others have accepted the claim of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) to celebrate the centennial.
  • Kasargod Vartha says about the promulgation of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction). Thus it, like others, has accepted the claim of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction)'s right to celebrate the centennial.

K

There is a problem of neutrality in Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP Sunnis).

See: Talk:Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP Sunnis)#Requested move 10 August 2024

Since both Samasthas of AP (Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama) and EK Sunnis (Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama) have the same name, founder and the same history until the split in 1989, both should be presented equally, in their respective articles.

For that I humbly request you to undo this edit. Moreover both Samasthas should be named exactly the same except two letters of "AP" and "EK". What should I do to do that because a there is already a request to rename (Talk:Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP Sunnis)#Requested move 10 August 2024)? In addition, my request to rename and move them to Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (EK faction) and Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) has been removed.

G

You repetedly added controversial edits (1, 2, 3, 4). You also reverted (1, 2, 3, 4) several edits to push your view without considering neutrality and due weight. Besides, you nominated Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP Sunnis) which at the time was Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (of AP Sunnis). You apper to be offended by the presence of the description about Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) in the Onam and Muslims. Thus, you appear to have suggested merging Onam and Muslims with Onam. You appear to be presenting your views along with suppressing the opposing views. Furthermore, you removed suggestion to rename the articles. You are not presenting Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) and Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (EK faction) equally. See also your edits on Samastha where you did not treat both of them equally. You are presenting Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (EK faction) and its other things, but you appear to be intolerant even about the mention of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) even in a section of Onam and Muslims.

  1. ^ Cite error: The named reference :6 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  2. ^ "Increase in suicides linked to ignorance, says Kanthapuram". mathrubhumi.com. 2024-07-12. Archived from the original on 2024-07-13. Retrieved 2024-08-20.
  3. ^ "No freedom for Islamic activities in any country like that in India, says Keralite Muslim scholar". ThePrint. 2023-01-28. Archived from the original on 2024-07-26. Retrieved 2024-08-20.
  4. ^ Cite error: The named reference :10 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  5. ^ Cite error: The named reference :11 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).