User talk:Angela/Archive1: Difference between revisions - Wikipedia

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>>[[User talk:Angela/Archive2]]

<table><tr><td>[[Image:Poinsettia_2_thumbnail.jpg|Poinsettia]]</td><td>

<font face="Verdana,Arial,Helvetica" color="#2C3F61">Welcome to my talk page. <p>[http://en.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Angela&action=edit&section=new Post new message]. [http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Special:Emailuser&target=Angela E-mail] <small>(angelaatwikipedia@yahoo<nowiki>dot</nowiki>codotuk)</small>

<p>

Anything you write here may be archived ([[User_talk:Angela/Archive1|1]],[[User talk:Angela/Archive2|2]],[[User talk:Angela/Archive3|3]],[[User talk:Angela/Archive4|4]],[[User talk:Angela/Archive5|5]],[[User talk:Angela/Archive6|6]]), [[User talk:Angela/Summary|summarised]], moved or [[Wikipedia:Deletion log|deleted]].<p><small>The full stop after my name in my signature is a secret link to this page. (Inspired by [[User:Dori]])</small></font></td></tr></table>

''These archives do not always include things that I have written on my talk page myself. The history of my talk page may be seen for that. Sometimes not everything is archived, but a link is provided to the uncut version where this is the case. The page history of this archive includes the page history of my talk page prior to 2004. This is to stop the page history getting too large to be useful. The history between January and June 2004 can be seen in the page history of archive 2.''

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==Welcome==

==Strange goings on at VfD==

Hi Angela, welcome to Wikipedia! Looking forward to reading your articles. --[[User:KF|KF]] 20:42 Feb 20, 2003 (UTC)

==Ships==

195.56.187.125 is doing slightly strange things to VfD. I can mention these when I see them, but if he creates a user account I can no longer identify the IP address. I understand that sysops can see IP addresses - can I ask you to keep an eye out, assuming it doesn't take much time? Failing that, nominate someone else I can ask? [[User:Onebyone|Onebyone]] 18:05, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Hi, on ships we've typically been leaving in the "insert caption" line as a reminder to go find a picture. It's not bad that you removed it, but there are hundreds more with the note, all waiting for illustration (which are not hard to add BTW, the US navy has many PD photos to choose from, just takes time). [[User:Stan Shebs|Stan]] 21:49 28 May 2003 (UTC)

:Sorry Stan. I just assumed it was a mistake. I should have checked with you first. Angela. May 31 2003.

== Harvey Ball ==

::No biggie! I might not have said anything, but thought you'd probably prefer to know rather than not know. It's not often that anyone takes interest in the ship articles! :-) [[User:Stan Shebs|Stan]] 23:04 31 May 2003 (UTC)

thanks for writing such a grand article about harvey ball! [[User:Kingturtle|Kingturtle]] 00:18, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)

:*thanks for the help. I appreciate it. :-) [[User:Greenmountainboy|Greenmountainboy]] 00:41, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)

==Flowers APH photos 1==

I've uploaded a flower for you at [[media:Sagittaria.jpg]]. Enjoy :). WikiLove, [[User:Mbecker|MB]] 03:01 5 Jun 2003 (UTC)<br>

[[Image:Sagittaria.jpg]]<br>

Hello Angela. This above is a present from MB to celebrate the [[m:WikiWoman|woman]] in you. Thanks for being on the list (and just for being there) :-) [[User:Anthere]]

Re [[Kevin Rudd]] and the photo thereat: I now have an email from AUSPIC, the Australian Parliamentary photo agency, advising me that photos at the Australian Parliament website are not copyright and may be freely used for non-commercial purposes. I have therefore restored the photo. [[User:Adam Carr|Adam]] 01:13, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)

==Thanks 1==

== Having too much fun ==

Thanks so much for welcoming me to the site. :) Take care. [[User:ManicGypsy|ManicGypsy]]

==Congratulatons==

feel free to remove my [[Brenden Matthews]] page. I got a little carried away, what can i say.

Congratulations, you have just been made a sysop! You have volunteered for boring housekeeping activities which normal users sadly cannot participate in. Sysops basically can't do anything: They cannot delete pages arbitarily (only obvious junk like "jklasdfl,öasdf JOSH IS GAY"), they cannot protect pages in an edit war they are involved in, they cannot ban signed in users. What they can do is delete junk as it appears, ban anonymous vandals, remove pages that have been listed on [[Wikipedia:Votes for deletion|Votes for deletion]] for more than a week, protect pages when asked to, and help keep the few [[Wikipedia:protected page|protected page]]s there are, among them the precious [[Main Page]], up to date.

Note that almost everything you can do can be undone, so don't be ''too'' worried about making mistakes. You will find more information at '''[[Wikipedia:Administrators]]''', please take a look before experimenting with your new [[superhero|powers]]. Drop me a message if there are any questions or if you want to stop being a sysop (could it be?). Have fun! --[[User:Eloquence|Eloquence]] 22:53 17 Jun 2003 (UTC)

- [[User:Bdiddy]]

== On splitting Commiserations==

[[Slough]] and [[Birmingham]]. Commiserations, [[User:Jimfbleak|jimfbleak]] 19:53 26 Jun 2003 (UTC)

==Bugs==

Where do you get the idea that splitting an article that is less than 20KB is bad? --[[User:The Cunctator|The Cunctator]] 07:08, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Did you see that on recent changes? -- [http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion&diff=0&oldid=1097487] and [http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion&diff=0&oldid=1097488] lead to the same edit--the one I made. Yours seems to have vanished, though the system says yours came in earlier at 21:12. [[User:Koyaanis Qatsi|Koyaanis Qatsi]] 21:15 30 Jun 2003 (UTC)

:How strange. It was taking ages to save so I pressed stop on my browser because I decided to write more about it, but then I realised it had saved (as it was in recent changes). Could that have been half-saved when I pressed stop? [[User:Angela|Angela]] 21:22 30 Jun 2003 (UTC)

::Wow, I don't know. That's a question for [[user:Brion Vibber]] or [[user:Eloquence]]. They know about the software. Maybe it should have a bug report, too. [[User:Koyaanis Qatsi|Koyaanis Qatsi]] 21:30 30 Jun 2003 (UTC)

== URL linking convention ==

:::Thanks, I've left a message for Brion.

Angela, it looks like you've hit the rare but deadly Simultaneous Edit Bug. Alas, your edit is gone; instead, the previous one gets duplicated twice in the history, while yours was saved for bug a few microseconds. :( --[[User:Brion VIBBER|Brion]] 22:03 30 Jun 2003 (UTC)

I was wondering if there are any specific rules in terms of providing links, because i like to provide links to data information i have. I've noticed on some pages the links are included into the article, and on others they are listed at the bottom. What would you say is appropriate? Thanks. --[[User:Bdiddy|bdiddy]] 08:10, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)

==Thanks 2==

== UTF-8 at English pages and Description of Serbian Language ==

Thanks for the welcome. I've always wanted to work on an encyclopedia where I can fix the errors myself :) (this is from bad, bad experiences with an early 1990s version of ''Compton's Encyclopedia'', where a lot of data hadn't been updated in 20 years!)

[[User:Lee_Cremeans|-lee]] 22:03 21 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Hello,

==New Imperialism 1==

It would be very useful if you (or someone who is responsable for that) move English pages move to UTF-8 encoding. In this moment I have to write non Latin-1 characters into some other editor, and then to submit it to Wikipedia.

Here is a "temp"; don't let it go to waste. [[New_Imperialism (temp)]] Some text, such as the long "definition of imperialism" paragraph at [[New Imperialism]] can be moved to [[imperialism]] -- other text has been moved to [[theories of imperialism]] -- topic specific text on the [[Panic of 1893]] or the [[Congo Free State]] or [[Cecil Rhodes]]...or....or...etc can be reinserted at those appropriate locations. I urge you to read [[New Imperialism]] '''very''' closely and you will find some amusing things (not to mention a migraine headache). [[User:Pizza Puzzle|Pizza Puzzle]]

==Flowers 2==

Also, my intention with Description of Serbian Language was to invite other people to write this document with me. It is a long term work and I don't think that it would be done in the near future. But, I thought it is possible to develope it on Wikipedia openly.

That's a beautiful pic you just uploaded. [[User:Koyaanis Qatsi|Koyaanis Qatsi]] 21:46 25 Jul 2003 (UTC)

==Thanks 3==

I think that the best idea is to write several pages in my user space and then to publish and to keep on with developing. Is it OK? [[User:Millosh|Millosh]]

Thank you for the welcome message. Just out of curiosity, is there a list of newcomers somewhere or did you just see my name in 'recent changes'?

I hope you like my contribution about [[Directive 95/46/EC on the protection of personal data|data protection in de EU]]. ;-) It's a dry subject, I know, but a usefull piece of information nonetheless.

[[User:Hdk|Hdk]] 12:49 27 Jul 2003 (UTC)

==New Imperialism 2==

== Nico v. WolfgangPeters ==

:: ''editorial note - the comment below is duplicated on [[talk:New Imperialism]] and various user talk pages''. [[User:MyRedDice|Martin]] 11:56, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)

You should reconsider your vote on New Imperialism.

about [[User:Nico|Nico]]. He posted few revisionists sentences on the different talk pages. Examples: ''Even the migrants must be considered expellees, since '''their homeland was under occupation''' and Germans generally was discriminated and threatened in these areas. '' Source [[User talk:Nico]] ''I thought it would be correct to name them expellees, as that is what they name themselves. When they emigrated, Germany had not recognised the current borders. But do as you want. And in any event, what is wrong with considering '''East Prussia rightfully German''', in accordance with international law (the Geneva protocols states: "It is illegal to permanently keep land militarily taken over and to expell and to replace the inhabitants")'' -- [[User:Nico|Nico]] 01:43, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC) Source [[Talk:Landsmannschaft Ostpreussen]]

He claims in Wikipedia, that some Polish or Russian areas, are ''rightfully German'' and are ''under occupation''. Do we want to start again border disputes in Europe?? [[User:WolfgangPeters|WolfgangPeters]]

...unfair...irresponsible...bad policy...terrible precedent

:I actually don't see what is "revisionistic" with these sentences. I just stated a fact: The (West-)German government actually considered these areas "occupied" when the people we are talking about emigrated. And it's not just "revionists" who thinks East Prussia should return to Germany. There are even Russians who thinks that. And after all, this is also just my private opinions, not what I write in any articles. [[User:Nico|Nico]] 13:14, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)

...undermining the integrity of the entire encyclopedia

...could set off a chain reaction

...dangerous development

...threaten the design of the encyclopedia

...this could be the end of the project

...This could be the end of collaboration

...What enables Wikipedia to function is at stake

...This would set a very bad precedent

...this goes against every principle of encyclopedic design

Summary of [[User:172|172]]'s attempt to get me to change my vote at 09:08, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC). [http://www.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:Angela&oldid=1213891 unsummarised version]

::Based on, what you stated yourself, it seems to be irresponsible to give you the rights to edit articles in Wikipedia. Attempt to violate existing borders is a crime in every state. [[User:WolfgangPeters|WolfgangPeters]]

:I see above that you chose to mock me rather than respond. I will never work cooperatively with you. [[User:172|172]] 18:19, 1 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Why have he moved these comments to you, Angela? Is it a campaign? Btw, User:Maximus Rex just told me that "WolfgangPeters" is the user GH/AM, or 145.254.xxx, a "Polish nationalist" [http://en2.wikipedia.org/w/wiki.phtml?title=User_talk:WolfgangPeters&oldid=1964826] & [http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Nico], currently even listed on Vandalism in progress -- [[User:Nico|Nico]] 15:47, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)

==SQL==

==Ghost of the Robot==

Hi Angela. Some SQL results for you, in a strange format because I'm a developer not a developer, if you get my meaning. -- [[User:Tim Starling|Tim Starling]] 14:07, Jul 29, 2003 (UTC)

[[/SQL query results]]

I am sorry for putting that page on VfD. It was a mistake. I believed that the band was obscure, but now I realize that I have seen at least one of its members quite frequently on the television. Thank you for notifying about the VfD. Happy hunting, [[User:Greenmountainboy|Greenmountainboy]] 21:12, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)

==Parqués==

==Book of Mormon Controversies Page==

Hello, Angela. It's --[[User:Davichito|David]] 20:23, 29 Jul 2003 (UTC)~, the one who wrote the article about

Parqués. I'd like to know how can I delete "Ludo.jpg" and

"Parques.jpg". I uploaded them yesterday, but I think people

should see them on my website instead of here. If you know

how to or can delete it, I would thank you very much

==Netherlands==

Good idea about renaming the page. Hmm. Maybe it could be called Book of Mormon Origin or Book of Mormon Studies. I don't know. [[User:Hawstom|Hawstom]] 21:38, 15 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Apologies for Netherlands VfD - no hidden agenda, just inadvertently yaken out with things I had deleted. [[User:Jimfbleak|Jim]]

==1000th edit==

Angela, maybe Eloquence is right. Book of Mormon Studies could use the NPOV forum of Wikipedia to mature. But maybe Wikipedia really isn't the place for a BofM Controversies page. Maybe both camps need to just stick to the agreed upon facts. If it is disputed too much to go on the main page, maybe it doesn't belong in an encyclopedia. [[User:Hawstom|Hawstom]] 16:02, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Please make suggestions below on what my 1000th edit should be.

*Hello. Well, since you didn't specify whether you wanted an "easy" or "hard" edit (subjective, I know), I'll suggest a semi-hard one. Pick an author, preferably one with an anemic entry ([[Stephen Crane]], [[John Steinbeck]], [[Thoreau]], etc.) and expand it a little (or a lot). Just a suggestion ... not too creative, but it'll do for my entry. :) [[User:Notheruser|Notheruser]] 23:33, 31 Jul 2003 (UTC)

==Should anons be allowed to edit?==

* [[Amnesia]] could use an edit (as in, "more general basic stuff", not as in, "copyedit"). It's an old article, and it happens to the old. --[[User:Menchi|Menchi]] 01:03, Aug 1, 2003 (UTC)

::Oh &*$^ I forgot my next edit was meant to be my 1000th and just wasted it completely by getting rid of old stuff from Votes for Deletion. Oh well, thanks for the ideas Notheruser and Menchi. I will work on them all for my 1001st onwards. [[User:Angela|Angela]] 17:31, 1 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Angela, thanks for your comments on my reform proposals. Might I suggest we try and promote some sort of discussion forum on these problems among experienced users of WP, in a place where it will be seen? Such proposals will have more weight coming from you than from me, since some people here seem to find me antagonistic (I can't imagine why). [[User:Adam Carr|Adam]] 11:16, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

==New Imperialism 3==

==Default Signature==

172 refuses to allow the temp links at [[New Imperialism]]. [[User:Pizza Puzzle|Pizza Puzzle]]

==Cheese==

Any chance of getting the WML (WikiMarkupLanguage) autosignature updated to include the "full stop" used by you and [[User:Dori]]. Could it not save a fair amount of pasting/extra clicks - as well as bandwidth? - [[User:Unkamunka|unkamunka]] 11:30, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Nice workaround at Who Moved My Cheese. I thought I was going to have to rewrite those two sentences. -- [[User:Notheruser|Notheruser]] 00:16, 2 Aug 2003 (UTC)

==Elizabeth Bibesco==

Dear Angela, Thanks for your help with my first entry. I tried to put a 100 page biography into one page. Is it O.K. for length? Should there be more or fewer anecdotes? Paul Darby (Elizabeth Bibesco)

:Hi Paul, I replied on [[User_talk:Pauldarby|your talk page]]. [[User:Angela|Angela]] 01:16, 2 Aug 2003 (UTC)

==JustWiki Plainis ThanksWacked==

You commented on my talk page:

:... I hope you don't mind me pointing out that articles need to be more than external links. You created [[Jean Gregoire de La Trinite]] with just a link to [http://www.magnificat.qc.ca/english/index.html]. This link has been deleted. If you have more to add, please re-create the article by clicking on the red link above. ... [[User:Angela|Angela]] 19:02, 3 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Thanks for sorting out my problem the other day, I'm not sure that the topic in question (university libraries) is completely needing a page so I'll pass on making it one just for now. Thanks again ;-) -

[[User:Alistair b|Al b]] 21:38, 16 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Only problem here is that I never created the La Trinite page, nor do I even know who he is. I agree with you though that Link = Bad.

== Moz Wiki stuff, Simple ==

Clearly Wiki has been having some issues lately.

[[User:Dragons flight|Dragons flight]] 15:16, Aug 4, 2003 (UTC)

==NOTOC==

Thanks, Angela. [[User:LittleDan|LDan]] 17:09, 4 Aug 2003 (UTC)

==Simple Wikipedia==

Hi Angela. Nice to see a little activity here :) I dont know what can be done for this project. Some one recently asked for a separate simplified Chinese site separate from the Traditional one -- and the thought occured to me that merging all "simple" wikis might be useful. I dunno. Thanks for your vote on RFA, BTW. :) - [[User:Stevertigo]]

==Temp 5==

All I did was switch the Wikipedia in other languages section to small and 4 columns. Other changes have been made without discussion, so I assumed it was allowed. Change it back if you don't like it. [[User:LittleDan|LDan]] 01:41, 7 Aug 2003 (UTC)

:It's the same size as it is currently on the main page. Why is it unreadable? [[User:LittleDan|LDan]] 01:49, 7 Aug 2003 (UTC)

==Press release==

I'm sorry. I didn't see anything on the talk page about it. [[User:LittleDan|LDan]] 18:15, 7 Aug 2003 (UTC)

==Wikiquote==

While I think linking to Wikiquote is great, I don't see any need to remove material unless it's overwhelming the article. - [[User:Hephaestos|Hephaestos]] 20:51, 8 Aug 2003 (UTC)

:It's a tough call sometimes; I moved a lot out of [[Robert H. Jackson]] because it was almost half the article. The same is true of [[H. L. Mencken]], but I'm hesitant to do so in that article, as Mencken's quotes are mainly what he's known for. - [[User:Hephaestos|Hephaestos]] 21:00, 8 Aug 2003 (UTC)

::My gut instinct there is to keep them both places; a little duplication isn't going to hurt, I don't think. - [[User:Hephaestos|Hephaestos]] 21:08, 8 Aug 2003 (UTC)

==Simple English==

No, the special characters (if you cant do it) is probably a function of the old software. -If Simple.wiki were to be upgraded, you and I (being the only ones interested apparently - you more than I lately ;) - then one of us can simply ask Brion to do it --on the wikitech mailing list, or on his new "to do" list under his meta userpage. But as I understand it, that would erase some of the old data -- if he doesnt back it up (sometimes not necessary on wikis with only scratch on them). I would also prefer to deal with/answer the question of the simple wiki's true purpose. I modified this aspect heavily a while ago, when I first started editing it. Do you agree that It should be an international base?

-- TTYL -- go raibh maith agat. -[[User:Stevertigo|<strong>&#25140;&#30505sv</Strong>]] 19:05, Aug 10, 2003 (UTC)

==Octopus==

Thanks for seconding my contribution and adding a link to it[[User:KRS|KRS]]

:No problem. [[User:Angela|Angela]]

==Wikimoney==

'''Carol Shields'''

Money well spent as I have battled to trace her maiden name. The link you posted does not work, but I believe you [[User:Tiles|Tiles]] 05:29, 11 Aug 2003 (UTC)

==Thanks==

Thanks for the welcoming, [[User:Rvalles|Rvalles]] 06:00, 11 Aug 2003 (UTC)

==Simple wikipedia==

If you read my proposal of "SEnpl for fascile translation" (on simple.) that kinda runs over the idea. The idea is that language should only be a component of a page -- like a little [[langa:en]] tag somewhere on the doc -- that way all the pages are part of the same wiki and are "closer together."

But thats kinda separate just from using Simple as a kind of sandbox where the grammar rules are extremely lax -- if you read broken English, you can usually piece it together -- same goes for my broken Chinese and Arabic, etc -- why not run an experiment to see if one wiki can take the place of a lot of these smaller wikis -- when there is enough there we can farm the articles out.

(will copy to general mailing list for more general discussion -- there is some interest there.) -[[User:Stevertigo|<strong>&#25140;&#30505sv</Strong>]] 07:04, Aug 11, 2003 (UTC)

:I replied at Simple. [[User:Angela|Angela]] 13:03, 11 Aug 2003 (UTC)

== Psychopathology ==

Hello there,

Just an note to say thanks for adding yourself to the Psychopathology WikiProject ! I've just added a [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Psychopathology/Review|review]] page so if you create any new articles, or want to watch out for new ones, add to the list or keep tabs on this page.

Thanks again - [[User:Vaughan|Vaughan]] 19:31, 12 Aug 2003 (UTC)

==Simple==

Yep -- I replied at simple too. off to meta...-[[User:Stevertigo|<strong>&#25140;&#30505sv</Strong>]] 03:25, Aug 13, 2003 (UTC)

==Temp5==

Hiya, love your user page! BTW sorry for springing another vote on the Temp5 debate page but I've been watching this and earlier debates go on and on and on . . . and on, with edit wars, revertions, etc. We seem to be going around and around in circles so I thought it was about time the circus was put out to grass by clarifying what do we want and when do we want it. Two votes (on if and when we want a new page, and final approval for the new draft or drafts drawn up on the basis of what the community decides it ''actually'' wants) seems the most logical way to get a decision. Otherwise we'll be voting on temp after temp after temp all year, with each new page if approved challenged by another temp ad nausaum. Maybe this time we'll get off the starter blocks and actually take a series of steps with an outcome, rather than endless false starts that decide nothing. lol [[User:Jtdirl|FearÉIREANN]] 15:31, 13 Aug 2003 (UTC)

==It's not fair==

Hi Angela,

How is the logo contest going to be fair if it is true that it is possible to vote multiple times? (!)

Thanks for the info,

RSVP

[[User talk:Tonius]] 22:28|2003.08.13

==Simple==

-Answer on simple -[[User:12.233.97.211|12.233.97.211]] 22:55, 13 Aug 2003 (UTC)

==Preview button==

Hi Angela,

I do use the preview button. It's that I use the sectioned off edit buttons that's lined along the entire right side of the long page when I'm logged in. I do this because it is easier for me to edit small sections a bit at a time then to use the edit button at the bottom of the entire page (displaying all the technical symbols with the text) to edit just one little section. I'm constantly researching new information and adding them to the timeline if you check the edit history. Also, I try to improve the phrasing, format, punctuation and misleading information. I admit that some edits were preview mistakes, but that fact accounts for a very small percentage of the time (see page history).

I know it looks like a lot but it's because I use the edit-section option running along the side.

Right now I'm on summer break from the University of Massachusetts Amherst (A Senior majoring in Linguistics & Psychology with an Honors GPA) and it's the first summer in a very long time that there's no work in my area. The recession has hit the United States pretty hard, especially in my area; This year has had the worst lay-off rate of workers since World War II, the worst unemployment in 20 years, the worst year for the 10-Year Bond, and the worst year in 5 years for the all the US stock markets.

Thus, I'm out of work and came up with the idea to research the history video games 2 weeks ago when I was listening to some video game music while reading my academic books.

This is how I ran into your fabulous website.

Sorry,

Tony

:::[[User talk:Tonius/Bio]]

==Votes for deletion==

Thanks for your note at the Village Pump: I appreciate the help! [[User:Jwrosenzweig|Jwrosenzweig]] 19:17, 14 Aug 2003 (UTC)

==Redirects==

:Hi Angela,

:I was wondering about your redirect of the Guided Missile Destroyers page. I'm putting together an article on the USS Gyatt, the first DDG, and am wondering if it will be affected by this redirect. Having recently started at Wikipedia, I have taken an interest in the U.S. Navy ships page and have been slowly adding to it, especially the destroyers as I served on four of them during my time in the fleet. [[User:StinKerr|StinKerr]] 00:38, 15 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I was referring to this entry in the [[recent changes]] log:

[[List of guided missile destroyers]]; 20:14 . . Angela (only 1 in the list, so redirect)

Thanks for the link to [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Ships|Ships Project]] I'm looking at it and will use it for guidance, and thanks for your previous guidance. [[User:StinKerr|StinKerr]] 01:50, 15 Aug 2003 (UTC)

==Good idea==

Good idea. go raibh maith agat.(?) -Steve

:Tá fáilte romhat. [[User:Angela|Angela]]

==Being nice to hyenas==

Er, "stating views" with RK ([[ICYDK]]) is kinda like "just be nice to the hyena." Hes beyond unreasonable, and has been since the beginning. And yes its a load of nonsense, yes--Go to sleep--Pull the drapes shut--Avoid the Wikidrug for at least ten hours. Twelve if you can help it. :) -[[User:Stevertigo|<strong>&#25140;&#30505sv</Strong>]] 04:06, Aug 15, 2003 (UTC)

Then dinna be controversial - e'be tirin'. Suggestions -- Come up with some new [[internet slang]] - like [[ICYDK]]! Thatll keep you going for a couple hours. I'm going to go add some more <nowiki>[[WP:XX]]</nowiki> shortcuts to the Wikipedia pages. :) -[[User:Stevertigo|<strong>&#25140;&#30505sv</Strong>]] 04:23, Aug 15, 2003 (UTC)

==172==

What actions, Angela? What actions? You want to revoke my sysop status because I have been urging a ban on a user who posts crap like this: "Pat Robertson has recently felt hardship, for he knows he is losing the war against gay rights and his small penis. Pat Robertson has even been known to give $150,000 to a scam artist who told him he would sell him machines for $275 that would create perpetual motion, or endless power. Clearly not a scientist, Pat Robertson suffers from many diseases of the brain. He also has publically announced that he wishes that the 3 supreme court justices that are ill who voted for sodomy to be legalized to die. He is a sham and uses his position to accomplish vendettas of his own in the name of the christian populus. What a coward." [[User:172|172]] 04:30, 15 Aug 2003 (UTC)

-----

It ''isn't'' my problem? It's not a problem at all when these users seek to destroy articles like [[New Imperialism]] or [[Catholicism]], right? A historian shouldn't care when these pages turn into garbage, right? BTW, why do sysops even have the right to protect pages if I was so out of line in protecting [[Catholicism]] from Nostrum's vandalism? Nostrum's only attacking me because I was the unfortunate sysop ''invited'' to protect Catholicism. Please, don't fall for the crap spewed by this user, who is only here to vandalize articles and divide legitimate users against each other. [[User:172|172]] 04:54, 15 Aug 2003 (UTC)

(After your comment on talk -172)

::Ill agree that one shouldnt pump themselves to be a "top cop" --but I disagree with you rather pacifist assertion that 172 should just do nothing. Ive noticed that a few people (like RK) seem to get away with crap simply because people like to "avoid them" -- Granted that "one should not argue with a fool, or people wont be able to tell the difference" -- but the ignore it approach is too simplistic an answer. Let me qualify that I'm speaking with next to no knowledge of the specifics -- Ive scanned Nostrums work and was not too impressed with it. What is the sanction specifically about? A specific punishment for a specific offense --bad attitude alone is not a justification. -[[User:Stevertigo|<strong>&#25140;&#30505sv</Strong>]] 06:08, Aug 15, 2003 (UTC)

:::Agreed [[User:RK]] is a simple bully, who harasses all those who oppose his views on anything. Reverting everything he puts in a talk file would be a good start. His article text isn't so bad, but he puts the text where it will make his political point, not where it belongs. 172 is also usually right, and doesn't seem to whine to authority much or at all, which is the primary requirement for a sysop. Make whiners sysops, and soon the whole project goes right to hell. [[User:142.177.71.11|142.177.71.11]]

I saw your comments on Sv's page. This was a great encouragement to me that we'll be able to put this dispute behind us and someday work cordially on an article if our pursuits on Wiki ever coincide. As JT was saying, my tough responses to vandalism have been generally effective. Just 18 hours ago or so I single-handedly averted the comeback of the hard-banned racist Zog (back as ZOG). He won't be filling up the mailing list and talk pages like last time and there will be no hours and hours of edit wars, like last time. That's because I reacted quickly when I noticed that he had exposed his IP, which I banned. Sometimes those who know the vandals best, and know best how to recognize them, are most adept at thwarting them. [[User:172|172]] 22:49, 15 Aug 2003 (UTC)

:I hope so. [[User:Angela|Angela]]

::As it is a great encouragement to all of us that you seem to actually be responsive now to the thoughtful opinions of your esteemed fellow Wikipedians.-S-

==Main page==

Angela, regarding alternative Main Pages, have you seen [[m:Main Page alternate]] and [[m:Main Page style]]? They are about meta-wikipedia but may be of some use to you in planning main pages for the wikipedia proper. -[[User:Stevertigo|<strong>&#25140;&#30505sv</Strong>]]

:Thanks for the links. I'll wait till the results of the vote b4 doing anything though. [[User:Angela|Angela]]

==Various==

* How long...? --- As long as is fair.

* Do you intend...? --- Yes. It will be "fairness"

* WTF?? --- I have my reasons. Give a tantrum child responsibility, and that child will grow into its new role.

* 172: Ok... --- Well he seems to be rubbing people the wrong way -- instead of the right way :) --- If hes overly political, and messing with the fine line between op, and sysop --- there are punishments for that. As for practicality -- it seems our wise and much loved [[User:Jimbo|King]] is handling things personally -- personally I think this is a mistake and will say it to his face when I work up the courage. ;)

* WP:WINAD -- Ill give you the same answer I gave to Steven Rubenstein about his critique of my habit of [[neologism|neologia-creatum]] ([http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/ethnoconvergence example]) -- somebodys got to.

* Allusion -- [[NBD]] :P

* Advice: Ah. Good. So you.. um er, took... Former[[user:Big Fat Buddha]] would have something better to say. :) I'm glad you got some [[sleep]], sometime -- otherwise you would, by emperical evidence, have to be on [[speed]] to keep this up -- (which I know is not true, because you make very few typos.)

* Anyway, BNTTH -- :] Trust me.

==Apology==

I'm sorry about that episode. I thought that the summary of my comments was a parody. Most just archive talk, so I didn't realize that you summarize all comments. Online communication can be very difficult. [[User:172|172]] 01:19, 16 Aug 2003 (UTC)

==Flower==

It's nice to see that you are using the flower I gave you :). [[User:Mbecker|&#12510;&#12452;&#12459;&#12523; (MB)]] 01:24, Aug 16, 2003 (UTC)

==172/ Nostrum==

I'm not trying to change your mind here, just responding to what you said to 172 on his talk page. I would like to say that I know for a fact that Nostrum means no harm, and that the reason I got involved in the issue was becuase I felt 172 was treating newbies unfairly (he was treating Nostrum like a vandal, when all he needed was guidance.). I found out that 172 had a history of labeling people vandals, and scaring them off of wikipedia. I felt that this was reason enough for his sysop powers to be removed, becuase it upsets me to know he is representing wikipedia that way. Anyhow, I've said this a million times. Just wanted to let you know that this was never personal for me, and that I feel the 172 issue should not be dropped so quickly. [[User:Mbecker|&#12510;&#12452;&#12459;&#12523; (MB)]] 01:35, Aug 16, 2003 (UTC)

----

If you don't mind, could you try and help Nostrum out? I think you are right, someone other than me needs to help guide him, and hopefully his experience with 172 will have an overall positive affect. His major mistake was messing with the wring crowd :). [[User:Mbecker|&#12510;&#12452;&#12459;&#12523; (MB)]] 02:04, Aug 16, 2003 (UTC)

==About interlanguage links==

Interlanguage links don't have a "correct" place, as you stated in the [[Astronomy and astrophysics]] history page.

See [[Wikipedia:Interlanguage links]]. Cheers --[[User:AstroNomer|AstroNomer]] 21:20, Aug 16, 2003 (UTC)

==Massage==

Well, now--that depends on who's asking, young lady. ") -[[User:Stevertigo|<strong>&#25140;&#30505sv</Strong>]] 21:31, Aug 16, 2003 (UTC)

==Interlanguage links==

:Paraphrasing what you said,(apologies :) in a different context: {I disagree with creating stub articles which consist only of a couple paragraphs and I tend to delete such pages from the English Wikipedia. It wastes someone's time if they follow a link thinking they will get some useful information, only to find a unprofessional and incomplete article. It may be useful for those who want to add or contribute to these articles, but frustrating and confusing for those trying to read Wikipedia. Professional quality should be attained before not after the article is written.}

D'ye see me point m'Dear? -[[User:Stevertigo|<strong>&#25140;&#30505sv</Strong>]] 22:20, Aug 16, 2003 (UTC)

P.S -- I wrote back to Tarq on http://mail.wikipedia.org/pipermail/intlwiki-l/2003-August/001999.html

&#19981;&#26159;! &#19981;&#26159;! A stub can also contain useless information -- the point is not to generalize what stubs are and what they are good for. ''Some stubs are better than others.'' -- "IL links do not." &#19981;&#26159;! &#19981;&#26159;! If you look at an page with just a title and an IL link--and you cant read that language--just hover over the ILlink! Bingo. You can do it right now on the ar:wikipedia. Thats one situation (as unusual as it is) where what you said is not true. There are many more. Where in the rules does it say you cant put x in front of X? In fact in some ways its better that making a whole system and then trying to link them up in some way -- each should give the other ideas about how to structure stuff organization. Do you mind if I load this talk up to the mail?

-S-

P.s -- mail Walter to reset your password intlwiki-l-owner AT Wikipedia DOT org

IL links/usefulness - I respectfully disagree. [[TBC]]-[[User:Stevertigo|<strong>&#25140;&#30505sv</Strong>]] 22:55, Aug 16, 2003 (UTC)

==RK as sysop==

When () comes back I want to nominate him for sysop (for real this time) I dont ask for much, but I ask that you support his nomination. Sincerely-[[User:Stevertigo|<strong>&#25140;&#30505sv</Strong>]] 22:55, Aug 16, 2003 (UTC)

==Votes for deletion==

When you list a page on [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion|Votes for deletion]] you ''must'' say "Listed on [[Wikipedia:Articles for deletion|Votes for deletion]]" on the page you are listing. Otherwise the page will not get deleted. --[[User:Maveric149|mav]] 23:38, 16 Aug 2003 (UTC)

The note is to inform the person who created the article that their work is being considered for deletion. It is also there to inform any readers that the article is being considered for deletion. This; 1) gives proper warning the author so as to give them a chance to defend their work and 2) informs readers that the article has serious issues. --mav

==Thanks==

Belated thanks for your kind welcome. I appreciate your links to the naming conventions, style guidelines, and village pump. [[User:Wenteng|Wenteng]] 04:54, 17 Aug 2003 (UTC)

== Tony Wilson ==

Your deletion of [[Tony Wilson]] was premature. Pages should be listed on [[Wikipedia:Votes for deletion]]. [[Wikipedia:Deletion policy]] sets out the seven categories of article which are exempt from listing on VfD, and as far as I can make out, [[Tony Wilson]] did not fit into any of them. If you would like to propose a change in the deletion policy, feel free to bring it up at [[Wikipedia talk:Deletion policy]]. Thanks. -- [[User:Oliver Pereira|Oliver P.]] 19:16, 17 Aug 2003 (UTC)

==User Page KRS==

No, not for now. I got cold feet immediately after I got a user account when I came to know of easy vandalism:-)Then I picked up a little courage and thought I will retain it as long as there is no problem. Thank you[[User:KRS|KRS]] 02:03, 18 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Hi Angela-- Thanks for your welcome greeting. Sorry it took so long to get back to you. [[User:Jose Ramos|Jose Ramos]] 09:42, 19 Aug 2003 (UTC)

==What qualifies for irrelevant info?==

You removed some factual information from a page about a small town in Armenia. You stated that it was irrelevant in your summary; it was verifible historical information that I obtained from several independent sources. Am I to assume that any reference to the birthplace of a famous individual is an irrelevant entry? I am not aware of that policy, can you point me to the place were it says that birthplace information is irrelevant and should not be posted here. Please post your reply on my talk page, I will not be checking back here. Thank you. [[User:Alex756|Alex756]]

==Press runs, relevancy and the ODP==

You mentioned on votes for delete that you had a press run of 600,000 for the last things you wrote. Personally I'd say that qualifies you for an article. Then again, I'm one of those "lax" Wikipedians when it comes to inclusion relevancy... So, when should I start your article? :)

Also, the [[Open Directory Project]] draft has gone live, the page is no longer protected, and I'm no longer the mediator <small><small>(*whew*)</small></small>. Thanks for your contributions to it. -- [[User:Stephen Gilbert|Stephen Gilbert]] 07:25, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)

==Redirects and deletion notice==

Hey, is this OK for the addition to [[Wikipedia:Deletion_policy]]?

: The does not apply to pages which a) have no content (such as [[Wikipedia:Redirect|Rediects]]), '''and''' b) also have no significant history. (E.g. a Redirect whose entire history is that it used to redirect from "Foo" to "Foobar", and has been changed to redirect to "FooBar", because the target page was moved, does not have any significant history.) A history which shows '''any''' content being added or removed is significant history.

Thanks! [[User:Jnc|Noel]] 16:40, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)~

: Yah, I saw the typo ''after'' I hit the "save this page" button. A common failing of mine! :-) I will change the caps, and add the text. Thanks! [[User:Jnc|Noel]] 17:01, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)

: Sure, no problem with that reword. I was trying to much the same thing (I had originally used "requirement", and switched it to the softer "policy"). I figured I'd just say "policy" and then people would read it to be whatever the agreed-on policy was as the moment (if any :-), but your version is fine too. [[User:Jnc|Noel]] 18:03, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)

==Akhenaten/Ahkhenaton==

Thanks! The rename was the subject of discussion among both the Egypt specialists working on the Akhenaten page, and on VP before it happened; see the discussion on [[Talk:Akhenaten/rename]]. The links to "Akhenaten" were probably people who wanted to use the right one, but I'm checking them out. [[User:Jnc|Noel]] 20:05, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)

==Preview button 2==

Thanks, Angela, but I'm referring to changes being made to [[Sega Genesis]] and a couple other pages. If you see the page history and look it over, I hope you'll understand at once my concern/confusion. Thanks for the prompt response, though! Let me know if you have any thoughts about the situation I'm referring to. [[User:Jwrosenzweig|Jwrosenzweig]] 23:24, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)

:Thanks, Angela. I agree that it's not a good idea to discuss a single user at the pump...I felt weird putting it there, and that's why I left it intentionally vague. Hope I didn't violate the principles of [[Wikipedia:WikiLove|WikiLove]]. :-) I'll leave a note on his/her talk page, as you suggested. Thanks! [[User:Jwrosenzweig|Jwrosenzweig]] 23:38, 20 Aug 2003 (UTC)

==Pestering Brion==

"Hopefully Simple will be moved to the new software soon, so that won't be a problem in the future. It's on Brion's to-do list. Angela" - Maybe you could pester him a bit ;) -[[User:Stevertigo|<strong>&#25140;&#30505sv</Strong>]] 23:35, Aug 20, 2003 (UTC)

I knew "pester" was the wrong word. These dont seem right either; :annoy, badger, be at, bedevil, beleaguer, bug, disturb, dog, drive crazy, fret, get at, get to, harass, harry, hassle, hector, hound, importune, insist, irk, mess with, nag, nudge, pick at, plague, provoke, ride, tantalize, tease, torment, work on, worry... Languages suck. -[[User:Stevertigo|<strong>&#25140;&#30505sv</Strong>]] 00:31, Aug 21, 2003 (UTC)

-[[User:Stevertigo|<strong>&#25140;&#30505sv</Strong>]] 00:31, Aug 21, 2003 (UTC)

If we manually move pages over to the new system now, then it's going to make conversion more difficult overall: a list of renamed pages will need to be kept so that the page edit histories can be re-imported later. If I'm going to have to do that much work, I'd really rather just have the full conversion done and over with, and be rid of the old system for all languages at once. --[[User:Brion VIBBER|Brion]] 01:14, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)

== The current deletion craze etc. ==

Hello again Angela,

As you would like answers to your questions, here they are: I did write a note to [[User:jimfbleak|jimfbleak]] even before the two of us had our little talk last night. The sheer speed at which the [[Wikipedia:Votes for deletion]] page has been growing recently makes me dizzy. Sometimes it seems to me Wikipedia has been taken over by a bunch of newbies who have no idea about what some have called [[Wikipedia:WikiLove|WikiLove]] and who, for some obscure reason, are trying to reduce it to a bare minimum, without any option for expansion. I called them "quick deleters", and I'm sorry that it was you I singled out to have that discussion with. You made it clear you did not want to delete [[Interim]]. But removing or transferring it to Wiktionary is also reducing the scope of Wikipedia.

Whenever I have a look at [[Wikipedia:Votes for deletion|VfD]] these days I'm horrified. Pages that in the past would have gone unnoticed or been improved on the spot by some other user (according to the old policy, "If you don't like it, change it") are now listed on [[Wikipedia:Votes for deletion|VfD]] only minutes after they have been posted, or a notice saying ''The neutrality of this page is [[Wikipedia:NPOV dispute|disputed]]'' is dumped on the page, with some flimsy explanation on the corresponding talk page (like a couple of hours ago at [[Point of no return]]). And what is supposed to happen then? I could use the "Random page" function and do the one or the other with every other page I get, but why should I?

As I already tried to point out, so many people have left (are leaving) Wikipedia, but their departure also goes unnoticed. I don't think it's a good idea that there are some Wikipedians who hardly ever write articles themselves and who believe it is their job to assess their peers' work only. (To me that's just like the head teacher in a school who does not teach himself any more or the plumber who does not want to get his hands dirty any longer.) I consider such a system (even if the hierarchy is informal and implicit) imbalanced. (But this is nothing to do with you personally.)

Thanks for the advice concerning the ''Simple English Wikipedia''. I'll have a look at it, but I don't want to have my fingers in too many pies and, well, I'm not under stress -- I'm worried. --[[User:KF|KF]] 14:47, 22 Aug 2003 (UTC)

==Cymraeg==

Thanks--I usually dont bother putting anything new on meta, as its a sort of a wasteland, unless things are really well linked to--speaking of the meta--I was thinking maybe (as if you dont juggle too many things already) youd be the one to finish localizing the [[meta:LanguageCy.php]] file-- in case it hadnt o'curred t'you. -[[User:Stevertigo|<strong>&#25140;&#30505sv</Strong>]] 22:47, Aug 22, 2003 (UTC)

Dydw i dim dy difalch gwas?-[[User:Stevertigo|<strong>&#25140;&#30505sv</Strong>]] 23:10, Aug 22, 2003 (UTC)

==Griego==

:Hay solamente una lengua

:que no pueda hablar

:y simplemente al estado mi simplicidad

:yo simplemente lo nombrará "Griego" -[[User:Stevertigo|<strong>&#25140;&#30505sv</Strong>]] 23:46, Aug 22, 2003 (UTC)

== re:welcome ==

Hello Angela,

Thank you for the welcome and encouragement.

I just discovered Wikipedia a couple of days ago, I am realy amazed.

-Steve

== Wikimedia donation addresses ==

Angela, I agree with you regarding the protection of the [[Wikipedia:donations]] page and to that end I have started a page [[Wikipedia:donation addresses]]. Can't that page be protected and the donations page be left to editors? It seems to me that the donation page could use a lot of editing; there is lots of stuff on it that needs updating; I see no reason to prevent it from being edited. [[User:Alex756|Alex756]] 15:59, 23 Aug 2003 (UTC)

== Simple English Stuff ==

Angela,

Thanks for the welcome you gave me @ the simple wiki. If you need help, feel free to contact me using the contacts on my EN user page

A couple of months ago, I created a Mozilla sidebar tab that enables a user to search Wikipedia. Is there a way I can upload the code here? I tried, but it uses [[JavaScript]], and I don't think the Wiki software supports it.

[[User:Hoshie|hoshie]]

As for the Simple Wiki, I hope to come back to it sometime, but I tied up im the main EN wiki right now.

I have [[Carbon copy|CC]]ed this to the simple wiki.

Happy X-Mas! I hope [[Father Christmas]] is good to you!

==Merci==

Merci Angela :-) [[User:Anthere|Anthère]]

==Software Engineering==

What happened with your studies in Software Engineering? Not what you expected? [[User:Mbecker|{ MB <nowiki>|</nowiki> &#12510;&#12452;&#12459;&#12523; }]] 03:45, Aug 25, 2003 (UTC)

==Tonius' Quotes==

Hi Angela,

I just noticed your message. Perhaps in the future I'll add some to WikiQuotes. Currently, I'm working on a new project using the quotes that I like.

[[User:Hoshie|iHoshie]] 01:53, 17 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I noticed that many of the greats have been quoted about many of the same issues, saying almost the same things, yet with minor twists or extra points. Thus, yesterday I started to rearrange them into a sequence whereby the list now seems to be a conversation among the greats, in which each supports or refutes a point that the previous has stated.

::Thanks. I'll contact the person you refered me to. [[User:Hoshie|iHoshie]] 07:02, 17 Dec 2003 (UTC)

My intention is to arrange a philosophical discussion among the greats that I discern as highly ingenious; a talk which crosses the historical limits of their deaths, and designed similarly as an internet chatroom or message bulletin.

== Incipient Vandalism ==

Check out the webpage now, I've added many new quotes and sorted them out as much as I could so far: [[User:Tonius/Quotes]]

An IP user and [[User:Bobjoejill]] have each edited twice today on [[Mercury (element)]] (but never before or since, there or elsewhere), each pair within a minute or two. The earlier, logged-in pair, were adding one unsuitable word that could be honestly argued for, and adding some keyboard garbage; i reverted both.

The later (IP) pair were adding "doodie" (a mild copralalia) and the other removing it; no revert needed.

Thanks for the comment Angela,

I'm continuing to watch it for a couple hours, but at this point don't intend to put it on ViP. I'll leave another note if i see more of those users or on [[Mercury (element)]]. I'm glad to see you stopped editing at a decent hour tonite, but if you could check in the AM, you should be up before me.

[[User:Tonius|Tonius]]

And please say so if i let them off easy, or if you look in detail & think i over-reacted.

==Viajero==

Thanks. [smile] --[[User:Jerzy|Jerzy]] 02:24, 2003 Dec 17 (UTC)

I really doubt it now, despite the similar interests. The writing styles on the users pages are totally different. Even if he were an old user, User:Viajero has never been disruptive and has become one of the site's best and most active contributors in a very short period of time. Please take a look at Viajero's contributions and second my nomination. [[User:172|172]] 17:10, 25 Aug 2003 (UTC)

-------

:Tsk, re yr hrs. Tnx, re yr reassuring answers. --[[User:Jerzy|Jerzy]] 03:31, 2003 Dec 17 (UTC)

I'm a little busy now, but when I'm ready I'll gather up enough evidence to ease your concerns. The writing styles are way too different. And also keep in mind that admin status can be revoked in a matter of minutes. [[User:172|172]] 17:18, 25 Aug 2003 (UTC)

==Thanks for nominations==

== Not removing stuff from talk pages ==

Oops,Thanks Ifor deletedthe 2nomination. pagesSorry thatto weresee editedyou've onlyburned byout EoT- take a break for a while, and onemaybe wasyou'll afeel fairlylike lengthycoming talkback? page.I hope so.... [[User:PakaranJnc|PakaranNoel]] 0323:2247, 1725 DecAug 2003 (UTC)

Thanks for thirding my nomination. (Is thirding a word? Probably not!) You are a dedicated Wikipedian and I hope you'll be back. ;-( &#8212; [[User:Alex756|Alex756]]

== [[The Wolf]] ==

==I quit==

What happened to your [[User:Angela|userpage]]? You now show up in red!?! -- [[User:Viajero|Viajero]] 20:15, 25 Aug 2003 (UTC)

:I quit. I might change my mind. I do that a lot. It's undeletable when I do. [[User:Angela|Angela]]

::Yikes, for good? Please stick around! At least until edit no. 2000!!!... -- [[User:Viajero|Viajero]] 20:24, 25 Aug 2003 (UTC)

:::Passed that a while ago. 2581 last time I checked. I shouldn't be talking here if I have quit. [[User:Angela|Angela]]

::::No, I guess not, not if you've quit. Maybe you haven't really. Or have you? Never mind. Have a good evening, wherever you are! -- [[User:Viajero|Viajero]] 20:43, 25 Aug 2003 (UTC)

::::You are under 2000 in french. Do you know anything about [[aumism]] ?

:::::Nope. [[User:Angela|Angela]]

I hope you decide to stick around -- you've always been a voice of sanity around here. Maybe you just need a break? The constant flamewars can be a bit exhausting sometimes.[[User:Eloquence|&mdash;Eloquence]] 20:54, Aug 25, 2003 (UTC)

:I have? Thank you. Unfortunately, one voice of sanity is not enough when everyone else is mad. [[User:Angela|Angela]]

::Who is mad, I'll kill em ;). [[User:Mbecker|{ MB <nowiki>|</nowiki> &#12510;&#12452;&#12459;&#12523; }]] 21:19, Aug 25, 2003 (UTC)

Angela! I welcomed you on [[February 20]], [[2003]], and I'd like to welcome you to the madhouse again. This is not how you were supposed to interpret my earlier remark that more and more people would be leaving. --[[User:KF|KF]] 00:29, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

==Or have I?==

Thank you all for your kind words. It's very difficult to stay away and I can't quite decide whether I want to or not. Perhaps I shouldn't let the vandals get to me - they have 'won' if I do. Maybe I just need to accept that some people are idiots and that their being here doesn't mean that I shouldn't be. Perhaps it's even more of a reason to stay? I'm still undecided. [[User:Angela|Angela]]

==Banned user sysops?==

"Unfortunately, one voice of sanity is not enough when everyone else is mad." Not enough? I say it's one too many. I say you should go mad yourself. Join the party. I noticed your recent edit to [[Wikipedia:Bans and blocks]], by the way. Has a banned user really been nominated for sysop staus? -- [[User:Oliver Pereira|Oliver P.]] 17:57, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Hmm? Which banned user are we talking about here? This is all very confusing... By the way, I should point out that leaving Wikipedia is a sure sign of madness, because it's such a great project. So if you want to be perceived as sane, you can never leave... ;) -- [[User:Oliver Pereira|Oliver P.]] 19:06, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

: Impeccable Vulcan logics. --[[User:Menchi|Menchi]] 20:04, Aug 26, 2003 (UTC)

Thanks! I've sent you a reply... -- [[User:Oliver Pereira|Oliver P.]] 19:56, 26 Aug 2003 (UTC)

One vandal-admin? One imperfection! Two vice? Two imperf! But the wonders of Wiki will always overwhelm its imperfection. [to paraphrase [[Mr. Spock]]] Always! ALWAYS!!! [To quote our insane selves] --[[User:Menchi|Menchi]] 20:04, Aug 26, 2003 (UTC)

==Missing?==

[[Wikipedia:Missing Wikipedians]] -[[User:Stevertigo|<strong>&#25140;&#30505sv</Strong>]] 00:18, Aug 27, 2003 (UTC)

Yes; I know of this list. I have considered several times putting me on it. But I have a safety valve. When I am really mad at the french, I come here. When I am mad at the english, I go to the french. When I am really unhappy about both places, I go on meta. Usually, that helps. And each time I get slightly different. Right now, I am over there. Have a couple of ones who I miss. But that does not mean they are entirely gone. Just not very much there. Unfortunately. As I said, I miss kq, and the cunctator, I don't see much of Quercus, so little happen on the topics I like. On the french wiki, I terribly miss Alvaro. I am also worried, because he left all of a sudden 6 weeks ago. Too long for holidays I think. I know that he likes boats, so perhaps he is just having a long time on one. But I also know he already had an heart attack, and his mail has been bouncing back on the french mailing back for being too full. So, leaving is fine but...

Anyway, I am terribly sentimental about people I appreciate :-)

Nod. Thanks. I'll be back when I feel more secure and when the french wiki will need me less. I think there is a current trend (agressivity toward newbies, libel, insults, hate speech, npov liberal interpretation, censorship, call for ban), that does :-)<br>

Take a good breath of the [[Wikipedia:WikiLove]] flower above :-)

----

==A case of mistaken identity?==

Ok, I suppose that doesn’t prove anything in reality but that along with comments I have received from other Wikipedians I respect has led me to undelete my user page which was done after thinking I had been stupid nominating a potentially hard-banned user. I wasn’t very good at staying away anyway. Viajero, I really hope you’re not Lir and that 172 and Oliver have got it right about you. Good luck with your adminship when you get it. [[User:Angela|Angela]]

:glad of the undeletion. But I read "potentially" hard banned, not hard banned. Ant

:: Ahh - I was wondering why you'd deleted yourself. And without listing on [[wikipedia:votes for deletion]], either. Tut-tut-tut. ;-) [[User:MyRedDice|Martin]] 12:36, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)

==Don't delete it==

Hi Angela. I thank you for your suggestions. I am a newcomer to Wikipedia & I have made several dumb mistakes which will not be repeated. If I may be so bold as to ask for a favor, it would be for your assistance in stopping the deletion of the pages that I have created. If you decide against it, I still wish to thank you for your consideration.[[user:kkawohl]]

:Kurt, read [[Wikipedia:List of central issues]] and then bug the editors. [[User:EntmootsOfTrolls|EofT]]

---

==Ban RK==

Angela, reverting RK's ban page to blank it is a serious mistake. Not only are you favouring a "squeaky wheel" (blanking his renamed ban page while every other /ban page remains in place), but, you are sending him a signal to continue, as his [http://disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=propaganda_techniques propaganda techniques] are working. You have fallen for a rather obvious trick: he accepts a measure for a limited time, then after protests that it is not harsh enough die down, he begins agitating against that measure, arguing that it is unique and therefore he has been "singled out" - whereas in fact he has got a special favour, which is, to have his record moved to a less obvious place. It is revolting in the extreme to watch otherwise intelligent people fall for trick which come straight from the Provocateur's Handbook. You must get over your feelings about /ban pages and at least recognize that the same policy must be applied to all of them at once, and that RK may set a precedent, but he may not be allowed to gain special favours for himself by such means as he uses. [[User:EntmootsOfTrolls|EofT]]

This is not a schoolyard. Literally the whole planet can read what is posted here. Because of the inordinate, indeed insane, [[Soviet Union|Soviet]]-like process [[User:Jimbo_Wales]] wants to apply (secret letters to himself no less, straight out of [[Stalin]]ism), this has become dragged out the point where a lot of RK's behaviour is more than obvious. The commentary on this has been painstakingly centralized so that decisions taken on his "case" can be fair. But you wish to let him hide all that and simply continue on as he has, with a clean and invisible record, so that others can give him leeway and find the same treatment being applied to them again. You are literally erasing the memory of Wikipedia, by which it can come to grips with this kind of gross infection. [[User:EntmootsOfTrolls|EofT]]

Perhaps you should read [[Nineteen Eighty-Four]] again. [[User:EntmootsOfTrolls|EofT]]

:Wow, it certainly didn't take you long to get back into the heat of things Angela. If you want to stay sane, I suggest you stay clear of controversial things for a little while. It helps, trust me. [[User:Mbecker|{ MB <nowiki>|</nowiki> &#12510;&#12452;&#12459;&#12523; }]] 19:20, Aug 27, 2003 (UTC)

::Angela, I request you help with [[Wikipedia:List_of_central_issues]], especially if you are concerned about me leaving. Whatever I have left to offer Wikipedia, it's probably contained in my contributions to/about that stuff. The rest is details. If I am banned for standing up for an open transparent process versus [[User:RK|petty propaganda]], [[User:JoeM|mindless advocacy]] and equally absurd [[User:Jimbo_Wales|Virtual Stalinism]], that is hardly uncommon in the history of [[politics]], and perhaps par for the course here. But to have you depart also without making some attempt to redefine, from a serious [[editing|editorial]] and [[publisher]] perspective, what makes this mass of text acceptable as an encyclopedia, would be the true tragedy. We were here working together "for a reason", and, I think that [[reason]] must not be abandoned. Warmest regards from the pits of soon-to-be-banned-Hell, your friend [[User:EntmootsOfTrolls|EofT]]

== Thanks for sticking up for me ==

Angela, thank you for pointing out to 172 that my comment regarding Saddam Hussein was tongue-in-check; I guess I have more of an English sense of humour than I thought; perhaps that comes from being a loyal subject of Her Majesty, eh? [[User:Alex756|Alex756]] 20:22, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)

:No problem. [[User:Angela|Angela]]

Regarding the comment about 172 as SH, I think he is fair game for this kind of joshing too, but I am not going to add it back, anyone can check the page history to see what I say, I am not trying to impose my personal opinion on anyone else. But after all SH's history shows an otherwise inoffensive copyeditor (though some of his edits are inappropriate as I was pointing out) so suggesting that SH and 172 are the same should not really be insulting to 172? I think this all shows that using the name of dictators as user names should not be tolerated as it is being tolerated with the SH case. [[User:Alex756|Alex756]] 21:02, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)

:In my own defence you will note that I say earlier in the post that I will not call that user by the dictator's name but by [[user:SH]] &#8212; that is the name I suggested for him earlier in my posting, if his real name is the same as the evil dictator, then at least he gets to use his initials. I think that is a reasonable compromise. So at the end I was saying that maybe SH is 172, not that 172 is an evil dictator. Geeze sometimes everyone in this place seems like they are walking on pins and needles, I can see why you were thinking of leaving Wikipedia, people can get ''so'' upset at times. [[User:Alex756|Alex756]] 21:25, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)

== Wikipediholic? ==

Hi Angela. You do realise, you just sliped seven points further into [[Wikipedia:Are You a Wikipediholic Test|Wikipediholicism]] (Q53) ;) -- [[User:Sannse|sannse]] 20:52, 27 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Oh damn, that means I got seven more points too. Buts thats Ok, I got 200 points for '''the question that cannot be asked on the Wikipeidholic test.''' Otherwise, how was the vacation? ;) -[[User:Stevertigo|<strong>&#25140;&#30505sv</Strong>]] 21:10, Aug 27, 2003 (UTC)

==Database Queries==

Oh. Now I got it. (after a couple minutes of "huh?" %\ No, I saw your page blanked after a couple of days of being mostly gone, and I thought -- hm? what might have provoked her to leave? Maybe the EofT/RK thing blew up too big? Maybe... etc. etc... Since no more user:angela, i thought, maybe check the delete page, and then took a look at db query page, and maybe dig up on 'the edit war that caused you to so abruptly leave.' :) -[[User:Stevertigo|<strong>&#25140;&#30505sv</Strong>]] 00:09, Aug 28, 2003 (UTC)

&#19981;&#26159;.&#22351;&#35810;&#38382;&#12290;-[[User:Stevertigo|<strong>&#25140;&#30505sv</Strong>]] 00:18, Aug 28, 2003 (UTC) ps. &#24744;&#24590;&#20040;&#30693;&#36947;?&#24863;&#35874;, &#33521;&#22269;-&#29983;&#30340;&#29980;&#22919;&#22899;&#12290;

== Thanks for your message, the first message I got around here! ==

Hi Angela,

I'm Wikibi. Thanks a lot for your message. I'm new here and need time to find my way around the web pages. As a matter of fact, I don't think I did anything wrong uploading my images yesterday. I followed all the instructions on the page and used the "Upload file" button above the "Special pages" button. Anyway, I can't find the images now. Is there a way that I can make up for it? Since I've already made them, I'd like to at least show these logos to some Wikipedians. My sort of way "to be accepted" as a new comer. I don't want to be imposing, but if you are interested, I'd like to show them to you. Thanks.

Wikibi

== the ethics of trolls ==

Trolls request your review of [[ethics]], as you have recently had ethical disputes with trolls. This article is the only possible [[Wikipedia:troll bridge|troll bridge]] for the truly impossible disputes, as its page history demonstrates.

If it can be simplified somewhat, and a fair division with [[simple view of ethics and morals]] (which is trying to be practical not comprehensive and take sort of a "villager's view") agreed, you can then write one in [http://simple.wikipedia.com Simple English] to complement what is there already on Religion, Politics, Law, Philosophy, Principle, etc. Maybe you can do that first, and then based on what's essential there, we can improve the others?

Now, we are off to gnaw and nibble at the lowest roots of the [[Tree of Knowledge]], and perhaps find a few tasty grubs and worms thereby. Yum! neh neh neh...

==Logo vote==

thanks. You were the first to five us the info ! (and time is short) [[User:Anthere|Anthère]]

==Thanks from Thoth==

Thanks for that message, I have since read up and changed another page I edited incorrectly. [[User:Thoth|Thoth]]

----

Thanks again ;) [[User:Thoth|Thoth]] 01:44, Aug 29, 2003 (UTC)

:No problem. [[User:Angela|Angela]]

== Deleting pages with copyright vios and problem w/history pages ==

Angela, I don't know if you have seen [[Wikipedia talk:Votes for deletion/copyvio]]. Martin has suggested adding something to the VfD/copyvio page and our discussion regarding copyright infringement on history pages came up. I just thought that maybe there should be something that discourages people from removing the copyvios and then rewriting the page. If it was clearly stated that new page with violations had to be deleted and then restarted this might prevent and be a better way to prevent copyrighted material from sneaking into the page histories (with new pages at least). Still does not really solve the problem with someone who adds stuff later, though. Also I've started a to do list and requests list on Wikipedia (not just in my head) thanks for reminding me. [[User:Alex756|Alex756]]

==Missing something in the translation?==

No. Systransoft.com was buggin or something. -Faker SV

----

Actually, yeah, I just realized that. I think I'm going to remove it, just so I don't forget anymore.

== Refactoring ==

Signing other people's comments is entirely reasonable - I do it regularly for Anthere, people have done it for me, and I've done it for 142.177.etc before now, without objection. I don't think it's at all controversial - yours is the very first revertion I've had. So I reinstated. [[User:MyRedDice|Martin]]

:yup, that is ok to me :-) (anthere)

----

== Thanks! (Ryerson edit) ==

Yep, that was exactly what I had in mind. Thank you for the fix and the welcome! [[User:Fourprint|Fourprint]] 03:53, 30 Aug 2003 (UTC)

==Ethics==

Hello. I do not know if EoT is banned right now. I saw you edited the talk page after RK had removed all EoT comments and answer. I think it is not standard practice to remove other people comments unless they are hardbanned. Even when it is the case, I certainly think it would be wise to remove libels and insults from comments from hard banned users (just as regular users btw), but in this case, the comments removed had no destructive goals, but suggested options. I think it real bad to let these comments be removed, be the author banned or not banned. It is just basic politness to allow the different editors in a dispute to express themselves (I also will had that the different editors are rather polite to each other) and it is other neutral editors in the debate to state so. I didnot like doing it, but I think it had to be. If EoT has been banned this night, it should be noted in the [[ethics]] article. Thanks :-) [[User:Anthere|Anthère]]

It is very early here as well, nearly 7, but I got to bed very early, and woke up with nightmares :-( I felt more like a deep black pit, so I am glad some see me as a lamp :-). I am an oil paper lamp. If EoT is not banned, then the comments sure had to be restored. Cheers and don't forget to sleep to fill up the lamp. Anthère

==Welcoming Newbies at fr:==

Yes, we have one at [http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikip%E9dia%3AMessage_de_bienvenue] or <nowiki>[[Wikipédia:Message de bienvenue]]</nowiki>.

I intend to start sending the promotion release in about a week (Mav sait we could expect the 300 000 articles around the 8th of sept. I know I will have quite a bit of work around that time (I have a deadline at work around the 10-15th), so probably I won't be there much. These past weeks, several users have been quite rude to newbies, some newbies have even left clearly stating it was the reason they were leaving. Several have mentionned the fact they did not feel welcome in the past weeks (of couuuuurse, I was not there :-)))) in truth, I am not always very nice to newbies myself, but I try to take care of some sometimes) and had a hard time. And one of our best welcomer apparently left us (you know, the heart guy). I fear a bit what will happen when the press release occur. If you can help at that moment, that will be very greatly appreciated :-) [[User:Anthere|Anthère]]

==Deletions==

It is perfectly fine to have the Swedish/Noweigian names redirect to the English names. Please dont delete those! --[[User:Jiang|Jiang]] 01:17, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)

==Vandalism==

Please stop vandalising other peoples' work. [[User:Heine|Heine]]

*Please stop deleting my comments. Talk goes the end of a page, not the start by the way. [[User:Angela|Angela]] 02:25, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)

---

Please read: "Admins should not protect pages when they have been involved in the edit war in question (either by actively editing the page or by expressing strong opinions on the talk page). Admin powers are not editor privileges". [[User:Heine|Heine]]

*Good point. I think this may be an exception to the rule. [[User:Angela|Angela]] 03:11, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)

I am not involved in any edit wars with you. I'm merely reverting your vandalism and protecting the pages you insist on vandalizing. [[User:RickK|RickK]] 03:14, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)

:I think he meant I shouldn't have protected my user page. [[User:Angela|Angela]] 03:15, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)

::I think he meant the pages that you protected to keep him from vandalizing them. [[User:RickK|RickK]] 03:26, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)

:::I hadn't edited those before I protected them anyway. [[User:Angela|Angela]] 03:31, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)

----

Everything under control? - Er, Im about done here myself - its late -- almost 9pm here! [[User:Stevertigo]] 03:24, Aug 31, 2003 (UTC)

----

Thank you for letting me wade into the Heine user-page festival. It feels like a small version of the [[Wikipedia:Village pump|Village Pump]], what with everyone and their cousins contributing. I was uncomfortable with a statement of how an editor intended to deal with a user ("revert on sight") posted to their user page, and not their talk page. If there's one page a user should be able to edit, it's their own user page. --[[User:Zippy|Zippy]] 06:42, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)

==Cars redirect==

I disagree with you on the car thing, but only in principle, not as an issue that I have to have my way with. If the justification for having it is frequency of use, I don't think that cars is used more frequently than car, or if it is, it doesn't warrant an additional entry. Take the example of crayons used on the pluralization page. We wouldn't have an entry for crayons with an 'S', though I bet it's used just as often as crayon without an 'S'. And as for reading the guideline pages, I DID read them very carefully before I submitted to the VfD. - [[User:TravelingDude|TravelingDude]] 18:31, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)

==Ethics==

Angela, check out the new proposal at [[Talk:Ethics]]; this looks like it should fix things. Your thoughts? [[User:RK|RK]] 22:15, 31 Aug 2003 (UTC)~

==Database download==

The links tables are not in the download dumps. They're only about 4 MB uncompressed, so it might be a good idea to put them in -- perhaps you or I should have a word to Brion. They can be reconstructed from the cur table, if you have a working copy of the PHP script. You just run [http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/wikipedia/phase3/maintenance/rebuildlinks.php?rev=1.1&content-type=text/vnd.viewcvs-markup rebuildlinks.php], I think. If you don't have it, it's probably more trouble than it's worth to download it and get it working. Especially if you're running Windows. You'll just have to search the text for "<nowiki>[[....]]</nowiki>".

I'll tell you what, I'll see if I can make a link table dump myself. Give me a day or two. -- [[User:Tim Starling|Tim Starling]] 01:14, 1 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Whoa, hang on. They aren't 4 MB uncompressed, they're more like 300 MB. I must have been reading the wrong row or something. But cur is 770 MB and that gets packed down to 100MB, so if we get a similar ratio here it should still be pretty reasonable -- say 50MB. Would that still be worth downloading, or should we find another way? -- [[User:Tim Starling|Tim Starling]] 03:00, 1 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Okay, try [http://download.wikipedia.org/tarballs/links.tar.gz this]. It came to merely 20 MB when compressed with gzip. -- [[User:Tim Starling|Tim Starling]] 15:07, 1 Sep 2003 (UTC)

==Simple English Article Review?==

Angela,

If you don't mind, can you look over these articles I've written @ the Simple Wiki to make sure they are good Simple articles?

I think you'll want to take a look at this article. Blah..... [[User:UtherSRG|UtherSRG]] 03:45, 17 Dec 2003 (UTC)

They are:

:Thanks. I seem to be finding a lot of junk today.... here's another: [[Edgar Ojeda]]. [[User:UtherSRG|UtherSRG]]

*[[simple:Alanis Morissette|Alanis Morissette]]

==msgs==

*[[simple:Web Browser|Web Browser]]

I just wanted to be sure I am on the right track before I write more. Feel free to reply here or at the simple wiki!

Where are all those {{msgs}} coming from, and why don't I know about them? [[User:RickK|RickK]] 04:02, 17 Dec 2003 (UTC)

Thanks!

== Ann Kyslowski 142.177/EoT ==

[[user:Hoshie|hoshie]]

How did you make that connection? Other than the use of the term 'little tin gods' I would have only been suspicious. --[[User:Maveric149|mav]] 04:09, 17 Dec 2003 (UTC)

:Thanks for your help! [[User:Hoshie|hoshie]] 15:11, 3 Sep 2003 (UTC)

== Adam Carr's Proposal ==

==Avoiding duplicate articles==

Angela. To me it wasn't anon users or new users who were the problem. My problem was the failure of most users to write for the enemy and to stand up for the integrity of articles that were not in their own "personal political space". I took pride in the fact that I, a conservative Republican, defended the integrity of the Wesley Clark article and was very vocal in confronting the conservative troll JoeM. Unfortunately, I did not see my philosophy working the same way on the other end. I, as a conservative Republican felt very UN-comfortable defending the George Bush article and Santorum article. I felt that a liberal Democrat should defend the NPOV on those but did not see it occur. Behavior that was seen as "trollish" on Hillary Clinton was seen as "informative" on George Bush. Thats why some started the "list war". Similarly, I felt uncomfortable trying to take anti-Bush material out of J. William Fulbright. I felt that a responsible liberal should have taken the lead on it. I asked for help and only got one person willing to assist me defend that article. So I don't think that Adam's proposal would help that. The only thing that would help that would be a change of heart by the political partisans or a change in NPOV philosophy. But I think very highly of the project and will keep watching in hopes of seeing it mature. -- [[User:Ark30inf|Ark30inf]]

Hi Noel, congrats on the adminship!

== Alexander Fleming ==

Thanks! And thanks for nominating me!

On Sep 21, you removed the image link on [[Alexander Fleming]]. The image is still there, though. Any specific reason? Shouldn't that be restored? --[[User:Magnus Manske|Magnus Manske]] 11:40, 17 Dec 2003 (UTC)

What are the redirects you are creating for?

== [[Palestinian views of the peace process]] ==

To prevent what happened with [[ITS]], where someone created a new article under [[Incompatible Timesharing System]] because they didn't know there was already an article on it under [[ITS]].

That is a good question. I admit I didn't spend alot of time thinking before I made that vote. My best idea is to merge it into [[palestine]], but... I would prefer if I wasn't the primary decision maker on this :). It really seems to be a section of an article, rather than an article itself. While it isn't good enough to stand on its own, or without editing, the article doesn't seem completely worthless, and I am generally '''really''' opposed to things which have any redeemable value being deleted. I am one of those [[wiki is not paper]] people, or a medium-rare [http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/inclusionism inclusionist], and whatever you want to call me, my instinct is to only delete complete garbage, and tinker/fix on the rest. [[User:JackLynch|JackLynch]]

:I was under the impression that merging was something only a sysop could do? I seem to remember some sort of problem on [[Wikipedia:Conflicts between users]] about something like that, between Jiang and pigsonthewing? [[User:JackLynch|Jack]] 21:25, 17 Dec 2003 (UTC)

The [[Stanford_Artificial_Intelligence_Lab]] is a broken redirect

== User:What most surprised me was the arrogance of the administration ==

Only because I hadn't installed the new page yet. It works now.

Any way you can check to see if [[User:What most surprised me was the arrogance of the administration]] is a previous user returned from the grave? [[User:RickK|RickK]] 04:59, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I'm not sure Prevent duplicate article creation is very useful.

== Reply on the Adam Carr thing/NPOV ==

It's easy enough to merge the articles if this does occur.

I don't think its anarchy in regard to who edits and how soon, but anarchy in regard to NPOV policy.

Yes, but it would be nice to avoid that happening - and also avoid the chance of people fixng it incorrectly (as with the person who made ITS a disambig page).

You are correct about political partisans changing their beliefs, but I think they can change their behavior. IF that is what is expected by the majority and that expectation is insisted on. The problem is that the NPOV policy as stated and accepted in practice is not really NPOV, its dueling POV. You can't blame users for being good at dueling POV when dueling POV is the standard operating procedure and is accepted by the community.

Redirects show up in the search, and there has been complaint about this

The idea seems to be to "get as much of my point of view in there" and "grudgingly accept the minimum opposing POV after a long fight". In reality, Wikipedia's policy is very similar to Fred Bauder's policy only the sympathetic and critical views have to fight for the same article space here whereas they are physically separated on his site.

being annoying (see the Atlas Shrugged redirects for an example)

Hmm. Well, that's a good point. I have tried to create only the most obvious redirects, ones that might quite likely actually get typed, but still... I'll go check out that discussion. [[User:Jnc|Noel]] 00:46, 3 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Dueling POV works in a way, but you better be ready for a head-butting contest in addition to being ready to write an encyclopedia article.

Jimbo said on the mailing list during the RK thing (paraphrased) that it is his view that the best articles come from such partisans engaging in mortal combat with other partisans. I respectfully don't see that and instead see the best articles occurring where partisans from both sides write for the enemy, police their own kind, and treat seriously any and every criticism of their work rather than circling the wagons and defending it in a kneejerk fashion.

==Thanks==

I've always tried to avoid being a utopian. But I feel that most of the regulars here regardless of political stripe could deal with that concept if that were the standard accepted here and insisted on. I'm figuring that either Wikipedia will mature and move that direction or someone will fork and try that philosophy. I'll keep watching because the project (ignoring methodology) is intriguing and useful. --Ark30inf

Thanks for the welcome!

~[[User:Gryon|Gryon]]

:No problem Gryon. I hope you like it here. [[User:Angela|Angela]]

==Amazed by your speed==

== Wikipedia:Wikipedia: ==

Umm. Angela. Thanks for the help with [[Controversies regarding the origin of The Book of Mormon]]. I signed up for a user name. I appreciate your patience, and I am amazed by your speed.

Angela, if my [[Wikipedia:Wikipedia:]] is redundant, feel free to get rid of it, but I urge that something be done to make whatever page it is redundant to (whether that is [[Wikipedia:Utilities]] or something else) more easily found. I've been working on Wikipedia for 6 weeks now and (as you can easily see if you track me) have been rather plunged in. This is the first I've heard of [[Wikipedia:Utilities]]. Is there some obvious way of finding it that I have missed? Also, now that you point me to that page, it seems rather painfully daunting and deserves a digest / overview somewhere (I don't really care where, as long as it is -- once again -- sane to find.) -- [[User:Jmabel|Jmabel]] 09:13, 18 Dec 2003 (UTC)