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Line 133: * A federation of West Bank + Jordan would leave Jews without the right to settle everywhere in Eretz Israel. And would leave Palestinians without the right to return. And my guess is that after Black September the West Bank and Gaza Palestinians would not particularly like to associate with Jordan. And I doubt whether Jordan would like to deal with millions of more Palestinians. Would Israel be prepared to give all of the West Bank to Jordan? And even if Israel managed to keep some regions near the green line would the rest of Israeli settlers want to live under Palestinian-Jordanian law? I am not sure how real the security issues are but would Israel want be really thin at its center? And the demographic problem in Israel would still exist. It seems to me that a West Bank + Jordan federation is an inferior solution all around. [[User:Dianelos|Dianelos]] 09:30, 14 October 2006 (UTC) :Hey Dainelos, interesting read, thanks for your time. I didn't understand still why the green line needs to be your criteria for the two states of the federation ? Why not say that anywhere there are Jews it's part of Israel and anywhere there are arabs it's part of Palestine ? If everybody is free to move around and everything, why does it have to be defined by the green line ? This is basically the one country proposal I told you about. Same for Jordan-Palestine proposal - that proposal doesn't say that the west bank becomes foreign to Israel like you thought it did - it says that the Palestinians are jordanian citizens and that anywhere THEY are it's part of the federation - meaning the whole cities and towns - nablus, ramallah, jenin, tulkarem and so on... because they are jordanian citizens living in Israeli borders... that's what it generally means. :Anyway, the proposal is of course quite beautiful but it's utopic, and if the PREMISE of this proposal was true, then there wouldn't be a need for any proposals, because there wouldn't be any fighting to begin with. The idea that Palestinans will accept the human rights and refrain fromt terrorism and live happily with Israel and there will be this amazing constitution for an awesome federation of peace , it's fantasy land. You say there are cultural differneces within the EU... and that implies to me you don't understand the extent of the differences. The notion behind the EU is that Europeans aren't THAT different from one another or atleast not the "NATO" european which is the problem of accepting more and more eastern european countries with different mentality. I don't think that in essence there is a huge inherehent cultural difference between Israelis and Palestinians, definitely not with the Israelis who lived in Arab countries of course , and also not because of inter-action between the Arab population of Israel and druze with the Jews, but there's a problem of religious fanatic behaviour and of pan-Arabic identity which can't accept Israel's existance and will not accept it. Israel only has peace with Jordan and Egypt because these countries are NOT democratic. I think you'll find that if you make a survey in Egypt about whether or not they want Peace with Israel, then more than 80% will say "Never" and possibly a huge % will also add "Death to Jews". Anti semitic books are very popular in Egypt and other arab countries. :Rabin famously said that the Oslo Accords are good to Israel also because the Palestinian Authority will be able to deal with terrorism without the "burden" of the Human Right groups and so on - what he meant is also that if you find a strong enough ruler that can control the violence then you can sign a peace treaty with him. This is the basic premise behind Israel's foreign policy with the Arab states. If Israel believed that Assad like Mubarak is willing to fight terrorism to its core and open his arms to western world then it would give the Golan Heights without hesitation. But Mubarak cracks down on the [[Muslim Brotherhood]] while Assad endorses [[Islamic Jihad]] and [[Hamas]]. Jordan used to harbour Hamas too, but eventually Abdallah kicked out the Hamas HQ and it moved to Damascus. This is because Abdallah wants stabiliy, and this is why Israel supported Jordan and NOT the PLO in 1970, because it wanted stability (this could seem silly because Israel could have preferred a Palestinian state in Jordan instead of the West bank and gaza, but Israel probably didn't look that far ahead and just wanted stability and not to create an active enemy state on its border). Now your idea says that "no... it will be a fully democratic federation with full human rights" instead of the usual strong control of the government to oppress any terrorist activity. And I ask you is this possible ? If Hamas win 80% of the votes and says what it says and has the rallies it has and demonstrations and palestinian mothers are proud that their sons blow themselves up... if this is some of the behaviour of the people, the last thing they're interested in is some western human right system. They'd much rather have a full islamic empire which has restrictions over any citizen who's not a muslim, over women, over beliefs contarary to "the prophet's" teachings etc. :It's just difficult to conceive a plan like yours with "people" who are capable of this - (warning - nasty picture) - [http://inhonor.net/ramlah/] . Think about it... Really. I think people dismiss such thoughts and don't take it into full account especially abroad but also locally, if you truly stop and think about it... I think you see what it's all really about. [[User:Amoruso|Amoruso]] 05:18, 15 October 2006 (UTC) | |||