User talk:TaivoLinguist: Difference between revisions - Wikipedia

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== Recent Revert ~~(Copied to [[Talk:Serbo-Croatian]]. Please continue discussion there)~~==

Hello TaivoLinguist. In you recent [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Serbo-Croatian&diff=prev&oldid=1193368998 revert of my edit on the Serbo-Croatian] article, you mentioned it is not a commonly used term. While Serbo-Croatian appears to be the commonly used term, Croato-Serbian seems significant enough as even in the infobox “hrvatskosrpski” (Croato-Serbian) is denoted in the line “srpskohrvatski / hrvatskosrpski” right under the Serbo-Croatian term. So it seemed logical to me. Why would it be less worthy or common an alternative than “Serbo-Croat-Bosnian (SCB), Bosnian-Croatian-Serbian (BCS), and Bosnian-Croatian-Montenegrin-Serbian (BCMS)”? I’m a bit confused on this reasoning.

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:According to [[WP:LEAD]], only "significant alternative names" should appear in the lead sentence. Other names can, and should, occur in the "Name" section. The title of the article is still the most common name used and the others are scattered without any consensus on what might replace S-C, therefore none of them should occur in the lead sentence as far as I'm concerned and they all should be listed at the front of the Name section. The fact that there is a name in the Croatian language that begins with hrvatsko- is immaterial because the English Wikipedia is based on English language usage only. "Serbo-Croatian" is presently and historically the primary name used by linguists, and there is no consensus on what the "new" name should be that includes "Bosnian" (no English-speaking linguists are using "Montenegrin" at this time because Montenegrin doesn't differ from Serbian as much as Bosnian and Croatian do). I have a grammar of the language that puts them in alphabetical order (BCS), but all the other grammars and book chapters in my library are just S-C. The problem is that someone writing for Bosnians or as a Bosnian will use BCS, a Serbian will use SCB or SBC, and a Croatian will use CBS or CSB. There is simply no generally accepted version that is more popular than any other. So clutter in the lead sentence is death to Wikipedia. All "clutter" should be placed in the section where it belongs, in this case, in the Name section. And I caution you against using Britannica as some sort of authority above and beyond all others. It's not. It's no more authoritative than the New York Times as far as Wikipedia is concerned. --[[User:TaivoLinguist|TaivoLinguist (Taivo)]] ([[User talk:TaivoLinguist#top|talk]]) 10:59, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

::FWIW, I agree with TL on this. Move everything but S-C to the names section. [[User:Peacemaker67|Peacemaker67]] ([[User_talk:Peacemaker67|click to talk to me]]) 11:25, 4 January 2024 (UTC)

{{Moved discussion to|[[Talk:Serbo-Croatian#Recent Revert]]|[[User:Vipz|Vipz]] ([[User talk:Vipz|talk]]) 19:43, 5 January 2024 (UTC)}}

== The ==

I've just realised something not related to borscht. What if your nickname should have been Taivo'''The'''Linguist all along? [[Special:Contributions/2A00:1FA0:4110:9C43:17B5:3FCC:A405:58C5|2A00:1FA0:4110:9C43:17B5:3FCC:A405:58C5]] ([[User talk:2A00:1FA0:4110:9C43:17B5:3FCC:A405:58C5|talk]]) 02:47, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

:Cute. I started out in Wikipedia in 2007 (or 2008) as simply "Taivo", which is the Comanche word for "white man". Then about 2010, Wikipedia decided to integrate all their non-English wikis into one and someone in Korea had prior ownership of "Taivo", so I just added "Linguist" because that's what my PhD is in and what I teach at the university. But I am not, of course, the only linguist active in Wikipedia ;) --[[User:TaivoLinguist|TaivoLinguist (Taivo)]] ([[User talk:TaivoLinguist#top|talk]]) 08:16, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

::(leaves an apology note on borscht on the talk page)(visits this page)

::Whoa! Outsmarted by a linguist indeed. Of course it was cute of me to assume "Taivo" is supposed to be your IRL name. ''Context'':

''[[Taivo]] is a male given name in Estonia, an ex-USSR republic with own incredible drama of rejecting the Soviet legacy'', as well as modern Russian "guest workers". And - unfortunately - a bunch of stuck-in-between ''Russians-but-actually-Soviets, who had never really cared about this whole "nationality" thing before statues flew.'' [[Special:Contributions/2A00:1FA0:2CF:194E:0:2D:9ED7:4701|2A00:1FA0:2CF:194E:0:2D:9ED7:4701]] ([[User talk:2A00:1FA0:2CF:194E:0:2D:9ED7:4701|talk]]) 18:16, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

:Ah. Perhaps I was superseded by an Estonian user rather than a Korean one. It was a long time ago. [[User:TaivoLinguist|TaivoLinguist (Taivo)]] ([[User talk:TaivoLinguist#top|talk]]) 09:39, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

== A kitten for you! ==

[[File:Cucciolo gatto Bibo.jpg|left|150px]]

Thank you for correcting the etymology of my hometown's name! I went far too long without knowing the Goshute origins. You do great work, and I hope your knowledge serves you well for the rest of your life. :)

[[User:Natstewboy|Natstewboy]] ([[User talk:Natstewboy|talk]]) 19:29, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

== Partial lists ==

Hi TaivoLinguist, I see you know several partial sources for the List of translations of LOTR. It would certainly be helpful if those were added to the article. In addition, it's best not to feed the trolls at AfD - as you can see, they love talking, never listen, and always hope to spin things out to cause delay or worse. All the best, [[User:Chiswick Chap|Chiswick Chap]] ([[User talk:Chiswick Chap|talk]]) 16:45, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

:I was just about to start that task :) Great minds... --[[User:TaivoLinguist|TaivoLinguist (Taivo)]] ([[User talk:TaivoLinguist#top|talk]]) 16:48, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

::So we'll see if that helps. --[[User:TaivoLinguist|TaivoLinguist (Taivo)]] ([[User talk:TaivoLinguist#top|talk]]) 17:40, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

::: The sources are certainly useful, but I find the lengthy AfD debate really alarming; this is because if discussions are ongoing, the AfD is relisted for further weeks. No use crying over spilt milk, but the less we talk there the better. [[User:Chiswick Chap|Chiswick Chap]] ([[User talk:Chiswick Chap|talk]]) 11:23, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

== Interlanguage links ==

Hello again. The "redlinks" you mention in your edit comments are all live interlanguage links, and it is certainly acceptable (especially in a language article!) to use these on Wikipedia. Their redness is limited to English Wikipedia, and if you or anyone else feels like translating the articles, then they'll become standard blue wikilinks. I don't see any good reason to delete navigable and informative links, but I'm happy to discuss the matter. All the best, [[User:Chiswick Chap|Chiswick Chap]] ([[User talk:Chiswick Chap|talk]]) 21:08, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

:It is considered bad editing to link outside the English Wikipedia and to have redlinks in articles if there is no article in the English Wikipedia. Articles in other wikis are irrelevant to English speakers. --[[User:TaivoLinguist|TaivoLinguist (Taivo)]] ([[User talk:TaivoLinguist#top|talk]]) 21:11, 11 May 2024 (UTC)

==Eastern Europe and Russia==

That's a completely normal and culturally natural formulation. It doesn't have to follow "region+region" as you suggest. "Northern Asia" suggests that borscht is equally popular in, say, North Korea and Mongolia.[[User:Essence of nightshade|Essence of nightshade]] ([[User talk:Essence of nightshade|talk]]) 02:20, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

:That is no more confusing that saying "Eastern Europe," which also includes Greece. But your whole argument is moot because borscht is, indeed, popular in Mongolia and China (called "Luosong soup" in China). --[[User:TaivoLinguist|TaivoLinguist (Taivo)]] ([[User talk:TaivoLinguist#top|talk]]) 13:04, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

::From my understanding, Luosong soup doesn't have beets. In [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Borscht&diff=prev&oldid=1223666566 this talk page edit], you argue that versions without beets shouldn't be called Borscht.

::Also, Greece is not part of Eastern Europe in English language usage; rather it's called Southern Europe. In contrast, Northern Asia" is not a thing in English, just East Asia and South Asia. In context, it strikes me as a way to avoid saying "Russia".[[User:Essence of nightshade|Essence of nightshade]] ([[User talk:Essence of nightshade|talk]]) 20:49, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

:::I have a degree in Geography and "Northern Asia" or "[[North Asia]]" absolutely IS a thing. It's a thing as much as "South Asia" and "East Asia. See [https://www.britannica.com/place/Asia/The-regions-of-Asia Brittanica] where "North Asia" is the very first division of Asia that is covered in the article. Only lazy geographers who don't care about accuracy try to use "russia" as a substitute. --[[User:TaivoLinguist|TaivoLinguist (Taivo)]] ([[User talk:TaivoLinguist#top|talk]]) 21:13, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

::::You didn't address the fact that you went far out of your way to stress that borscht-like sour soups without beets should not be called "borscht" in English. You even got another editor to draft a new article based upon this beet-red line. I agree, but here you are saying the opposite about Luosong soup in order to keep "Russia" our of the lead. We both know why, and I probably agree with your politics here, but they don't belong in an article about [[Borscht]].[[User:Essence of nightshade|Essence of nightshade]] ([[User talk:Essence of nightshade|talk]]) 22:56, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

:::::I didn't say anything about Luosong soup because you were right. You want me to stand on my rooftop and shout it? BUT, beet-based borscht is popular in Mongolia. But it doesn't matter because when comparing region to region, "North Asia" is a well-established and commonly-used term for the northern half of Asia. I didn't have to go any further than Wikipedia itself and Britannica to illustrate that. When listing items in conjoined clauses it's always stylistically better to combine like items and not mix things needlessly. But borscht in Mongolia, even without including the Slavic-style sour soup in China, negates the use of a single country's name to describe the region. --[[User:TaivoLinguist|TaivoLinguist (Taivo)]] ([[User talk:TaivoLinguist#top|talk]]) 23:08, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

:The current version of [[Borscht]] says nothing about Mongolia. I looked around on google to find something about Mongolian borscht, but came up with only scraps. Sure, you can get borscht there, but then you can get it here in the United States, too…or perhaps I should say "Central North America"…

Assuming that you can find a decent source saying that beet-based borscht is part of Mongolian cuisine, then [[Eastern Europe]], [[Russia]] and [[Mongolia]] would be fine, right? It would be highly informative as most people are unaware of this Mongolia-Borscht connection.[[User:Essence of nightshade|Essence of nightshade]] ([[User talk:Essence of nightshade|talk]]) 00:42, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

:I will find the reference (EDIT: [https://factsanddetails.com/central-asia/Mongolia/sub8_2c/entry-4588.html], just one of several good sites), but your construction is bad. [[Eastern Europe]], [[North Asia]] is the only acceptable construction. The individual countries are listed in the infobox. Now instead of a well-formed conjoined clause, you're just trying to push "russia" into a place of prominence that it doesn't deserve. --[[User:TaivoLinguist|TaivoLinguist (Taivo)]] ([[User talk:TaivoLinguist#top|talk]]) 01:35, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

::The entire talk page is filled with mentions of Russia, categories related to Russia, etc. Mongolia? Nothing until here on this talk page, just now. Ask an average American where Borscht comes from and he will answer "Russia'. Even if it is part of Mongolian cuisine as you say, this would be due to the influence of Russia. It's completely warranted to emphasize that this borscht is common to Eastern Europe generally, including Ukraine, and its good that the article does that, but not to erase Russia from the picture. No one is saying that Putin or Stalin invented Borscht.[[User:Essence of nightshade|Essence of nightshade]] ([[User talk:Essence of nightshade|talk]]) 01:52, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

:::NO ONE is erasing russia. But russia doesn't deserve special status by becoming a region of the world rather than a state. russia is mentioned equally with every other country in the infobox (Ukraine is the origin country so it gets top billing, of course). You're just fretting because russia doesn't get to be more than it is. --[[User:TaivoLinguist|TaivoLinguist (Taivo)]] ([[User talk:TaivoLinguist#top|talk]]) 05:42, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

::::And another point is well worth making. Except for a thin strip of land about 10 miles on either side of the railroad, the North Asian part of russia isn't very much "russian" anyway. It's inhabited by Turkic, Mongolic, Uralic, and Tungusic tribes who still herd their reindeer and live off the land like their ancestors have done for millennia. So saying that North Asia is "russian" is a complete exaggeration of reality. Many of those villages off the railroad consist of a russian administrator surrounded by native people. That doesn't make the town "russian". --[[User:TaivoLinguist|TaivoLinguist (Taivo)]] ([[User talk:TaivoLinguist#top|talk]]) 05:46, 29 May 2024 (UTC)