User talk:TaivoLinguist: Difference between revisions - Wikipedia

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That's a completely normal and culturally natural formulation. It doesn't have to follow "region+region" as you suggest. "Northern Asia" suggests that borscht is equally popular in, say, North Korea and Mongolia.[[User:Essence of nightshade|Essence of nightshade]] ([[User talk:Essence of nightshade|talk]]) 02:20, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

:That is no more confusing that saying "Eastern Europe," which also includes Greece. But your whole argument is moot because borscht is, indeed, popular in Mongolia and China (called "Luosong soup" in China). --[[User:TaivoLinguist|TaivoLinguist (Taivo)]] ([[User talk:TaivoLinguist#top|talk]]) 13:04, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

::From my understanding, Luosong soup doesn't have beets. In [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Borscht&diff=prev&oldid=1223666566 this talk page edit], you argue that versions without beets shouldn't be called Borscht.

::Also, Greece is not part of Eastern Europe in English language usage; rather it's called Southern Europe. In contrast, Northern Asia" is not a thing in English, just East Asia and South Asia. In context, it strikes me as a way to avoid saying "Russia".[[User:Essence of nightshade|Essence of nightshade]] ([[User talk:Essence of nightshade|talk]]) 20:49, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

:::I have a degree in Geography and "Northern Asia" or "[[North Asia]]" absolutely IS a thing. It's a thing as much as "South Asia" and "East Asia. See [https://www.britannica.com/place/Asia/The-regions-of-Asia Brittanica] where "North Asia" is the very first division of Asia that is covered in the article. Only lazy geographers who don't care about accuracy try to use "russia" as a substitute. --[[User:TaivoLinguist|TaivoLinguist (Taivo)]] ([[User talk:TaivoLinguist#top|talk]]) 21:13, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

::::You didn't address the fact that you went far out of your way to stress that borscht-like sour soups without beets should not be called "borscht" in English. You even got another editor to draft a new article based upon this beet-red line. I agree, but here you are saying the opposite about Luosong soup in order to keep "Russia" our of the lead. We both know why, and I probably agree with your politics here, but they don't belong in an article about [[Borscht]].[[User:Essence of nightshade|Essence of nightshade]] ([[User talk:Essence of nightshade|talk]]) 22:56, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

:::::I didn't say anything about Luosong soup because you were right. You want me to stand on my rooftop and shout it? BUT, beet-based borscht is popular in Mongolia. But it doesn't matter because when comparing region to region, "North Asia" is a well-established and commonly-used term for the northern half of Asia. I didn't have to go any further than Wikipedia itself and Britannica to illustrate that. When listing items in conjoined clauses it's always stylistically better to combine like items and not mix things needlessly. But borscht in Mongolia, even without including the Slavic-style sour soup in China, negates the use of a single country's name to describe the region. --[[User:TaivoLinguist|TaivoLinguist (Taivo)]] ([[User talk:TaivoLinguist#top|talk]]) 23:08, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

:The current version of [[Borscht]] says nothing about Mongolia. I looked around on google to find something about Mongolian borscht, but came up with only scraps. Sure, you can get borscht there, but then you can get it here in the United States, too…or perhaps I should say "Central North America"…

Assuming that you can find a decent source saying that beet-based borscht is part of Mongolian cuisine, then [[Eastern Europe]], [[Russia]] and [[Mongolia]] would be fine, right? It would be highly informative as most people are unaware of this Mongolia-Borscht connection.[[User:Essence of nightshade|Essence of nightshade]] ([[User talk:Essence of nightshade|talk]]) 00:42, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

:I will find the reference (EDIT: [https://factsanddetails.com/central-asia/Mongolia/sub8_2c/entry-4588.html], just one of several good sites), but your construction is bad. [[Eastern Europe]], [[North Asia]] is the only acceptable construction. The individual countries are listed in the infobox. Now instead of a well-formed conjoined clause, you're just trying to push "russia" into a place of prominence that it doesn't deserve. --[[User:TaivoLinguist|TaivoLinguist (Taivo)]] ([[User talk:TaivoLinguist#top|talk]]) 01:35, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

::The entire talk page is filled with mentions of Russia, categories related to Russia, etc. Mongolia? Nothing until here on this talk page, just now. Ask an average American where Borscht comes from and he will answer "Russia'. Even if it is part of Mongolian cuisine as you say, this would be due to the influence of Russia. It's completely warranted to emphasize that this borscht is common to Eastern Europe generally, including Ukraine, and its good that the article does that, but not to erase Russia from the picture. No one is saying that Putin or Stalin invented Borscht.[[User:Essence of nightshade|Essence of nightshade]] ([[User talk:Essence of nightshade|talk]]) 01:52, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

:::NO ONE is erasing russia. But russia doesn't deserve special status by becoming a region of the world rather than a state. russia is mentioned equally with every other country in the infobox (Ukraine is the origin country so it gets top billing, of course). You're just fretting because russia doesn't get to be more than it is. --[[User:TaivoLinguist|TaivoLinguist (Taivo)]] ([[User talk:TaivoLinguist#top|talk]]) 05:42, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

::::And another point is well worth making. Except for a thin strip of land about 10 miles on either side of the railroad, the North Asian part of russia isn't very much "russian" anyway. It's inhabited by Turkic, Mongolic, Uralic, and Tungusic tribes who still herd their reindeer and live off the land like their ancestors have done for millennia. So saying that North Asia is "russian" is a complete exaggeration of reality. Many of those villages off the railroad consist of a russian administrator surrounded by native people. That doesn't make the town "russian". --[[User:TaivoLinguist|TaivoLinguist (Taivo)]] ([[User talk:TaivoLinguist#top|talk]]) 05:46, 29 May 2024 (UTC)