Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2016 Ramadan attacks: Difference between revisions - Wikipedia

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*'''Merge/Redirect''' to [[List of Islamist terrorist attacks]], unless a link is clearly established - I'm just not seeing it beyond [[WP:CRYSTAL|speculation]] yet. [[User:Ansh666|ansh]][[User talk:Ansh666|''666'']] 19:00, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

**Update because EM has apparently decided the outcome already, still not seeing anything. [[User:Ansh666|ansh]][[User talk:Ansh666|''666'']] 00:30, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' - fairly straightforward [[WP:SYNTH]]. An editor is not allowed to make a topic from disparate events absent reliable sources connecting those events. '''[[User talk:Nableezy|<~~font~~span ~~color~~style="color:#C11B17;">nableezy</~~font~~span>]]''' - 20:27, 4 July 2016 (UTC)

::*Except that NOTHING in the article is synthesized. Every statement is reliably sourced.[[User:E.M.Gregory|E.M.Gregory]] ([[User talk:E.M.Gregory|talk]]) 01:19, 5 July 2016 (UTC)\

::::Im not sure if youre serious, but synthesis doesnt mean that each statement is not reliably sourced. Can you read [[WP:SYNTH]] and then if you respond to that Ill address your concern. '''[[User talk:Nableezy|<~~font~~span ~~color~~style="color:#C11B17;">nableezy</~~font~~span>]]''' - 16:45, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

:::::*"Nothing" is synthesized in the sense that both the assertion that there has been a deliberate series of Ramadan attacks is reliably sourced, and because each attack in the article is reliably sourced to news articles, analysts, or official sources that describe it either as specifically planned to take place during Ramadan 2016; or (as in Thailand) as part of an uptick in attacks during Ramadan 2016 (Thailand, specifically, has previously had negotiated Ramadan cease-fires); or as part of a Ramadan wave of attacks inspired by jihad organizations (ISIS, Hamas,) that issued public calls to Muslims urging them to kill infidels during Ramadan 2016 (thank heaven so few Muslims heed these calls - but the point here is that a handful did). It is not SYNTH because these linkages are not made by me or other WP editors, they are made by CNN, Time Magazine, the New York Times, Al Arabiya, etc.[[User:E.M.Gregory|E.M.Gregory]] ([[User talk:E.M.Gregory|talk]]) 17:01, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

:::::::Im sorry, but you dont seem to get the problem here. These are events that seem to have little to do with one another. Youre essentially saying any attack by a Muslim during Ramadan is connected. Hamas and ISIS arent even a little bit the same, the attack on a settlement in the West Bank and in Israel are part of another long running violent conflict, one that I think is obvious to most people goes back further than the start of Ramadan this year. You are combining multiple topics into one overarching one. That is synthesis. The NY Times piece about ISIS calling for attacks in Ramadan doesnt change that. '''[[User talk:Nableezy|<~~font~~span ~~color~~style="color:#C11B17;">nableezy</~~font~~span>]]''' - 00:15, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

::::::::*Both ISIS and Hamas are openly dedicated to the use of violent attacks on civilians to further the jihadist goal of imposing an Islamist future. Both organizations urged their followers to carry out attacks on infidels during Ramadan 2016.[[User:E.M.Gregory|E.M.Gregory]] ([[User talk:E.M.Gregory|talk]]) 00:30, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

::::::::::lol wut? If you say so. '''[[User talk:Nableezy|<~~font~~span ~~color~~style="color:#C11B17;">nableezy</~~font~~span>]]''' - 00:32, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

::::::::::Just as they do during any other important or semi-important event? [[User:Ansh666|ansh]][[User talk:Ansh666|''666'']] 00:34, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

::::::*The term "Ramadan attacks" itself is a [[WP:NEO]]. The article even lists attacks which has nothing to do with the Ramadan but occurred during June 2016. I have left messages for this on the article's talk page. [[User:Ferpalnum|Ferpalnum]] ([[User talk:Ferpalnum|talk]]) 17:45, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

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:::::::Please give an excerpt from the [[2016 Ramadan attacks]] article and explain how it does not comply with this sentence. --[[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 23:39, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

*'''Keep''', People need to know from an unbiased source what is or is not going on, there is nothing vile or offensive here unless you are a leftist activist, Muslim or ISIS / ISIL supporter. Many people seam to prefer to keep the negatives hidden. Deletion smacks LOUDLY of censorship. [[User:TayFam|TayFam]] ([[User talk:TayFam|talk]]) 23:12, 6 July 2016 (UTC) — [[User:TayFam|TayFam]] ([[User talk:TayFam|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/TayFam|contribs]]) has made [[Wikipedia:Single-purpose account|few or no other edits]] outside this topic.

::Wait, I always thought a Muslim was wayyy worse than being a leftist. Like, omg, how can you even put the two in the same sentence? '''[[User talk:Nableezy|<~~font~~span ~~color~~style="color:#C11B17;">nableezy</~~font~~span>]]''' - 01:05, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

:::{{Re|Nableezy}} Got that beat. I've been called a Conservative Leftist Muslim Jew! [[User:EvergreenFir|'''EvergreenFir''']] [[User talk:EvergreenFir|(talk)]] Please {{[[Template:re|re]]}} 04:07, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

::::That's NOTHING, {{U|EvergreenFir}}. {{U|GorillaWarfare}} and I are Lesbian Feminist Jewish Gatekeepers. I think--I may have forgotten a Bad Name. [[User:Drmies|Drmies]] ([[User talk:Drmies|talk]]) 21:08, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

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:*I've made some recent changes to remove some material. I'll make a further comment. -- [[User:Callinus|Callinus]] ([[User talk:Callinus|talk]]) 16:58, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

:*The article under consideration is [[2016 Ramadan attacks]]. The connection with Ramadan is made by the reliable sources that have been presented by various editors in this discussion and in the article. See for example [[#Bob6July|my message of 15:26, 6 July 2016]] above. --[[User:Bob K31416|Bob K31416]] ([[User talk:Bob K31416|talk]]) 17:02, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

:::The connection is that they happened in Ramadan. Ramadan this year largely corresponded with June. The article might as well be titled [[June 2016 attacks]]. The problem with this article, and with so many articles created with the same motivation, is that it uses a reporting piece as though it were measured analysis. And from that it seeks to make the most tenuous connection between entirely unrelated events based on '''single lines''' in '''news reports'''. Do you actually think there is any connection at all between a stabbing in an Israeli settlement in the West Bank with a bombing at an airport in Istanbul with a shooting of a club in Orlando? I mean besides the connection of Muslim and Ramadan? Its a completely arbitrary grouping of attacks, making connections that simply arent there (the response on Hamas and ISIS above was particularly absurd and deserves special recognition). Yall combining military attacks by an actual definable group of people (ISIS attacks on Iraq, Jordan, Lebanon) with "ISIS-inspired" attacks by people who have no connection to each other other than a website they both may have visited in the last year (France, Orlando) with attacks praised by militant groups such as Hamas (Tel Aviv wasnt carried out by Hamas, but because they praised it that means what exactly?) with bombings that are said to have "unclear motivations"? If it's unclear why exactly is it in an article that yall claim shows a connection between events? Or is it that the connection is the more obvious Muslim+Ramadan+violence? I for the life of me cant even understand the point of making articles like this. Each of these attacks merits and has its own article. Why exactly must there be some connection, real or imagined, also be covered in a separate article? otherwise you may as well start [[2016 Shawwal attacks]]. Actually, if were going to start using the Islamic calendar for arbitrary dating of events, we should probably rename this to [[1437 Ramadan attacks]], ''anno hijra'' and all that. '''[[User talk:Nableezy|<~~font~~span ~~color~~style="color:#C11B17;">nableezy</~~font~~span>]]''' - 18:20, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

::::::*Your assertion of "motivation" is an inappropriate , personal attack.[[User:E.M.Gregory|E.M.Gregory]] ([[User talk:E.M.Gregory|talk]]) 09:54, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

::::*Far from being based on '''single lines''' in '''news reports,''' the article is founded on analysis and in-depth reporting (i.e. - not only in breaking news reports) by security analysts and journalists who focus on militant [[Islamism]] and who (like the series of Wikipedia pages on jihadist attacks during Ramadan since the rise of the modern Islamist movement) trace not only the background, ideology and Islamist logic of using Ramadan as the occasion for both motivating lone wolves to commit violent attacks, but also specifically connect the attacks grouped on this page.[[User:E.M.Gregory|E.M.Gregory]] ([[User talk:E.M.Gregory|talk]]) 09:54, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

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*'''Delete''' — Textbook case of SYNTH, as others have carefully argued above. It is hardly better than an article called "Terrorist attacks that occurred on Tuesdays". [[User:Zero0000|Zero]][[User_talk:Zero0000|talk]] 02:59, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

:*Please read [[WP:SYNTH]], which does not refer to ideas well-supported by analysts and major media. *'''Note''' that the several editors asserting SYNTH fail to engage the sourcing on the page, sourcing like this [[Time (magazine)]] retrospective look at Ramadan 2016, '''These 5 Facts Explain ISIS’s Ramadan of Terror''' [http://time.com/4397020/isis-terror-attacks-ramadan/].[[User:E.M.Gregory|E.M.Gregory]] ([[User talk:E.M.Gregory|talk]]) 10:51, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

::*Please read the article linked and tell us how it links a nightclub in Florida with a settlement in the West Bank. '''[[User talk:Nableezy|<~~font~~span ~~color~~style="color:#C11B17;">nableezy</~~font~~span>]]''' - 00:28, 11 July 2016 (UTC)'

:::*This article discusses both lone wolf attacks reliably sourced as attacks inspired by Islamist ideas and propaganda, and attacks carried out by minions of militant Islamist organizations (ISIS, Hamas, Jamaat-ul-Mujahideen, etc.). It looks perfectly clear to me. And not different from the way Wikipedia handles violent militant movement from other eras (''fin de siecle'' anarchists, the IRA, etc.).[[User:E.M.Gregory|E.M.Gregory]] ([[User talk:E.M.Gregory|talk]]) 00:42, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

::::::Please quote what from the article connects a nightclub in Florida to an Israeli settlement in the West Bank to a bombing in Indonesia to whatever else you have cobbled together in your synthesized topic. Saying ''[i]t looks perfectly clear to me'' is a subtle admission that no such linkage occurs, and SYNTH is very much relevant here, despite your repeated insistence that it is not. '''[[User talk:Nableezy|<~~font~~span ~~color~~style="color:#C11B17;">nableezy</~~font~~span>]]''' - 00:45, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

:::::::::To clarify, What "looks perfectly clear to me" is the strong sourcing now in ''this'' article for the connection among these Ramadan attacks. Issues you may want to raise about what is in other WP articles are not relevant to the quesiton at issue here: the notability of this topic.[[User:E.M.Gregory|E.M.Gregory]] ([[User talk:E.M.Gregory|talk]]) 09:22, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

::::::::::I dont believe I raised anything about any other WP article, thank you very much. I was commenting on your completely made up point about the Time piece supposedly making this article not SYNTH. It does not connect the topics you claim it does, and like so many of your comments here that was blatantly dishonest for you to claim that it does while attempting to dismiss a valid point. '''[[User talk:Nableezy|<~~font~~span ~~color~~style="color:#C11B17;">nableezy</~~font~~span>]]''' - 15:18, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

*'''Delete''' - Each of these attacks already has its own article, and all are listed in the [[List of non-state terrorist incidents]] and [[List of Islamist terrorist attacks]]. There's no need to duplicate material just to highlight those attacks committed during Ramadan, especially since they have little in common and the link of each attack to Ramadan is often controversial and disputed. From the oft-cited [http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/04/world/middleeast/ramadan-isis-baghdad-attacks.html NYT article]: "terrorism researchers caution that attacks happen year-round and that there is little systematic evidence that they become more common during Ramadan. And it is almost impossible to tell what role the month plays in the thinking of individual attackers. […] The recent spate of attacks could be less about Ramadan than about the Islamic State’s desire to project strength as it loses territory." [[User:Nykterinos|Nykterinos]] ([[User talk:Nykterinos|talk]]) 22:26, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

:*It is patently untrue that "Each of these attacks already has its own article," a statement that could not be made by anyone who has read the article. Or even skimmed it. This, along with the text and sourcing in the lede and "Background" sections makes me regard Nykterinos' opinion as mere IDONTLIKEIT..[[User:E.M.Gregory|E.M.Gregory]] ([[User talk:E.M.Gregory|talk]]) 22:52, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

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:::::I know that- I watch the I/P area. If everyone followed his example, instead of trying to exercised restraint until the news cycle had established notability, you'd have 5 articles a week created there on what the Israeli army is doing every day and night.[[User:Nishidani|Nishidani]] ([[User talk:Nishidani|talk]]) 19:47, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

*'''Note''' Here [http://www.newsweek.com/bloody-ramadan-attacks-success-isis-deadly-message-478850] is a post-Ramadan analysis from [[Newsweek]] . ''"A Bloody Ramadan Proves Success of ISIS’s Deadly Message,"'' that may be useful to editors coming fresh to this topic.[[User:E.M.Gregory|E.M.Gregory]] ([[User talk:E.M.Gregory|talk]]) 20:06, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

::That doesnt make attacks during Ramadan a topic of its own, and it certainly doesnt connect most of whats covered in the article. '''[[User talk:Nableezy|<~~font~~span ~~color~~style="color:#C11B17;">nableezy</~~font~~span>]]''' - 20:25, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

:::Newspapers are not written by historians. There is a silly article cited in the lead about whether this is the bloodiest Ramadan in history.ISIS-Ramadan attacks can only be measured for 3 years. The [[Yom Kippur War]] known as the Ramadan War occasioned far greatest losses, as did the [[Iran-Iraq War]] in which neither [https://books.google.com/books?id=xTw-Fh0k8qkC&pg=PA13 Islamic side held fire over the ensuing 8 Ramadans]. On a rough calculation in the [[1948 Arab–Israeli War]], as a ceasefire was ending, Egypt attacked in the south and Israel conducted a large-scale offensive on 3e fronts at the beginning of Ramadan in 1948. That's why one shouldn't use the pseudo-historical garbage of instant reporting to create encyclopedic articles.[[User:Nishidani|Nishidani]] ([[User talk:Nishidani|talk]]) 20:34, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

*'''Keep, definitely'''. Although brand-new here, I just happened to come across this article, and I strongly feel that this is just far to noteable and important to be removed. Perhaps some heavy copyediting or even a complete re-write would be the best options. [[User:The United States of America is the best|Oh say can you see]], [[User talk:The United States of America is the best|by the dawn's early light]] 20:13, 11 July 2016 (UTC)