Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee - Wikipedia

Please see this link. Is there an arbitration ruling which prohibits this person from editing? thank you. — Ched :  ?  11:44, 30 January 2012 (UTC)Reply

To my knowledge, Selina was never banned by the ArbCom, though a consensus among the community would be needed for an unblock. AGK [•] 12:10, 30 January 2012 (UTC)Reply

thanks for the reply AGK. Do you have any idea where the discussion is that developed the consensus that she should be blocked is? It was before my time, and I'd rather do some research before I jump in. — Ched :  ?  12:44, 30 January 2012 (UTC)Reply

I think the block became a community ban at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive104#Blu Aardvark and Mistress Selina Kyle: unblocking, where the consensus was against an unblock. If I recall correctly, the Blu Aardvark case also related to something similar, but the Selina ban appears to not have been apropos to the decision. In 2006, community bans were recorded less accurately than they are now, but the tenet of "a user is community-banned if no sysop will unblock" applied then as much as it does now. AGK [•] 13:50, 30 January 2012 (UTC)Reply

Ahhh .. thank you very much sir. I really appreciate having some perspective on things. Hope you have a great day/night. — Ched :  ?  13:57, 30 January 2012 (UTC)Reply

It has come to light that for the last six months, Rlevse has been editing Wikipedia using a sockpuppet, user:PumpkinSky. PumpkinSky created numerous copyvios, which was exactly the same behavior that brought Rlevse down. Using a sockpuppet was also a violation of the rules governing "right to vanish" which Rlevse exercised.

Were any members of the arbitration committee aware of Rlevse's sockpuppetry? Raul654 (talk) 20:46, 1 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

More generally, are arbs aware of any editors violating RTV or CLEANSTART to disrupt FAC? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:07, 1 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

Wow. Just wow. → ROUX ₪ 21:16, 1 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

The first time the Committee as a body knew of the sock puppetry—and, indeed, the first time PumpkinSky's name appears in any Committee correspondence at all—was earlier today. I can't speak for whether any individual current or former arbitrator might have been aware of the account earlier; personally, however, I rather doubt Rlevse would have communicated with anyone on the Committee, as our relationship with him subsequent to his departure has been, for lack of a better word, strained.

As for Sandy's question, I'm not aware of anything in that regard, although we haven't really gone looking. While we've obviously been informed of the discussions taking place at FAC, I think the general feeling on the Committee is that they're an internal FAC matter and not something for us to get involved in. Kirill ^{[talk] [prof]} 21:19, 1 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

Since Sandy is being coy, allow me to be blunt. Pumpkinsky was one of the handful of people who pushed strongly for the FAC RFC. There's another user there, Alarbus, who pushed strongly for the RFC whom we also suspect of being an old editor who edits under a new name. (Sandy and I have our suspicions as to who he was previously, but I won't share them publicly) Is that, in fact, the case? Raul654 (talk) 21:27, 1 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

There are three grinding an axe: Rlevse, TCO who unvanished, and Alarbus who appears to be a returning user, violating CLEANSTART to further a grudge against Raul and me. Considering his likely past accounts, and that he is revisiting old grudges with Raul and me at FAC, and that the arbs are likely aware of his old accounts-- no, it's not internal at all. Raul has overwhelming support in the RFC. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:31, 1 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

(edit conflict) Not that I'm aware of; that name has never come up in any correspondence. (This doesn't mean that it couldn't be a returning editor, of course; we simply have no information regarding the account either way.) Kirill ^{[talk] [prof]} 21:33, 1 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

Thanks, Kirill-- glad to hear that. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:36, 1 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

Further to this, may I ask arbitrators and/or former arbitrators to comment on User:BarkingMoon, who quit 2 days before PumpkinSky started. At that time (July 2011) several editors thought BarkingMoon might be Rlevse. The latest information adds to that case, with one checkuser also finding it convincing. According to Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Mattisse/Archive#29_June_2011, information about this case was known to former arbitrators such as John Vandenberg, and current ones such as Hersfold. It is possible that unfortunate decisions were made at that time, but hindsight is 20-20, so my main concern is looking forward: there may be an ongoing pattern of behavior by Rlevse here, which needs to be checked, as it has become disruptive. Geometry guy 22:49, 1 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

• Note, it has been a very long time since we've seen Thatcher round these parts: I recall he was quite the competent one. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:49, 1 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

• I echo Kirill's comment. Of course we were not aware. AGK [•] 00:35, 2 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

  Of what? An echo adds nothing. The question here is about the awareness of Arbitrators to previous socking by Rlevse, in particular, as BarkingMoon. The silence confirms to me that this was Rlevse. So, what gives? Geometry guy 00:49, 2 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

Actually, Rlevse was insistent that BarkingMoon was not him, but was associated with him...a student/family member/associate... can't remember and the search on my email is crap. He was really really insistent on this. BarkingMoon quit before a decision on what to do was made. At that point, Rlevse had never socked (as far as anyone knows) and people who knew him (I didn't) found it hard to believe he would lie so insistently. He did admit to being PumpkinSky when challenged - which was today...yesterday (1 Feb). I can appreciate him wanting to Cleanstart, but he really can't - there is too large a pile of shit still to be shovelled in respect of checking his edits. Elen of the Roads (talk) 01:04, 2 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

OK. Now that we all know that you all knew about the likelihood of inappropriate editing in conjunction with his wife JoJo, per correspondence with Will Beback, please explain why this (the allegation that BarkingMoon was a family member or associate) didn't send up red flags. This is getting curiouser and curiouser, and I hope you can understand that I am not humored that Raul/FAC paid the price with sustained disruption for what is looking more and more like an ArbCom failure to act. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:42, 3 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

Very unfortunate figure of speech, the vast majority of the mainspace edits are certainly constructive, not "shit". Amalthea 01:16, 2 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

I am fully aware of BarkingMoon's denials and am not interested in figures of speech: I followed this quite closely at the time. That Rlevse denied it privately, and pointed Arbcom to associated editors is news to me, so thanks for commenting on that. I look forward to you and other arbitrators refining your searches on previous emails, and commenting much more openly. Geometry guy 01:25, 2 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

Geometry guy: I thought it was obvious, but I was responding to Raul's original question. Oh, and wrong - an echo adds support for my colleague's remark. AGK [•] 10:37, 2 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

Rlevse was a good guy, though flawed. He left, I guess, not because we didn't want him, but out of shame. I'd like to think we'll welcome him back, though no argument that copyvio habits need to be nipped. Let's not take a hard line trying to preserve the fiction of RTV. If an RTV-cleanstarter is listening, I'd advise that he should stick quietly to mainspace for a couple of years. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:42, 2 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

I can only assume that editors making posts like this are blissfully unaware of what has been done to FAC over recent weeks to months. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:00, 2 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

Yes, was blissfully unaware. Without question, a returned Rlevse should not be anywhere near FAC. That would be deceptive and disruptive if true. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:35, 2 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

• Pumpkin on Rauls' talk
• Pumpkin at WT:FAC
• Pumpkin at the RFC fueled by a small handful of editors, including Pumpkin (where those editors have been found to be in a substantial minority, yet have visited untold disruption upon FAC in past months).

So, if we have another CLEANSTART issue, are the arbs going to ignore it, too? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:44, 2 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

Is the arbitration committee aware of any other accounts currently or previously used by Rlevse? (This includes Barkingmoon) This is the same question that John Vandenberg refused to answer last year on the ground that "if BarkingMoon is Rlevse, they have done a fairly decent job of a clean start", which is clearly no longer the case. Raul654 (talk) 00:46, 2 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

Not sure how you're reading that as a refusal to answer. Anyway, no Rlevse has never declared any alternative accounts while I've been around, and until ... yesterday it is now... no-one has come and said "editor X is Rlevse", except for the BarkingMoon account. As I said above, Rlevse said he wasn't BarkingMoon, but they were related in some way. Those who felt they knew him did not think he would lie, and BarkingMoon left the project before any final decision was made. I guess people will form their own opinion depending on whether they believe Rlevse or not. Elen of the Roads (talk) 01:10, 2 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

... or whether they believe the Arbitration Committee or not. Malleus Fatuorum 01:20, 2 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

Indeed; these responses look a bit different in the new light of Will Beback's information. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:43, 3 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

Re: "Not sure how you're reading that as a refusal to answer." -- Did you read Vandenberg's statement? "The committee is not aware of any reason for any action by anyone in this matter at this time... the other suspect (Rlevse) is not under any sanction... The community needs to first decide whether there is sufficient grounds to require that BarkingMoon disclose their prior identity. There are only a few instances of BarkingMoon having made references to their prior identity, and if BarkingMoon is Rlevse, they have done a fairly decent job of a clean start, with a completely different focus and now demonstrating proficiency in German." - Notice that nowhere in this carefully phrased paragraph does Vandenberg actually answer the question of whether or not Barkingmoon is or is not Rlevse (and whether or not the Arbcom is aware of it). This omission was not an accidental. Raul654 (talk) 01:28, 2 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

And I'll add to Raul's post that this concerns me wrt John Vandenberg's involvement in the other possible CLEANSTART case mentioned (Alarbus), since this past feedback makes it unlikely anything will be addressed on that issue, hence I haven't bothered. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:39, 2 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

I think there's clear prima facie evidence of corruption within ArbCom, in the way that it deals differently with different editors. The essence of a fair system is consistency, of which we see none. Malleus Fatuorum 01:44, 2 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

(ec) What they said. Geometry guy 01:47, 2 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

ooooh myyyyy, this is a side of G guy I've never seen before! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:54, 2 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

Don't get too excited Sandy: I was commenting on the thread before the post by Malleus (hence the "ec"). However, there are serious questions here, and serious questions demand serious answers, so I am happy to add my support to that expectation. Geometry guy 02:07, 2 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

I have another question. Amalthea discovered Rlevse was socking, and the arbs found out sometime today. Thatcher edited CLEANSTART yesterday [1] (ok, pehaps unrelated, could be extreme coincidence, or related to the Fae situation). I happened to discover that Amalthea knew Rlevse was socking because I monitor WP:DYK/REMOVED, and followed the entry to discover the CCI. So ... was Rlevse going to be allowed to continue disrupting FAC if I hadn't happened upon this and brought it to Raul's attention? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:52, 2 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

Seeing shadows behind every tree, I guess. My edits were prompted by the Fae situation, but also because they are true. Rlevse's short fuse was in evidence before he even became an Arbitrator; unfortunately not enough people recognized it for the red flag it obviously was. Thatcher 03:26, 2 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

Thatcher, I was pleasantly surprised to see you'd edited yesterday, and suspected it was the Fae situation that caught your eye. Oh if only you would stick around, I really miss your common sense.

Amalthea's email was received on Arbcom-L nine hours ago - that's all. Probably half the committee hasn't even read it yet; I only read it about an hour ago. Certainly none of us has had time to review all the edits made by the account, and at this point the community is way ahead of anything we might do, if there was anything that required Arbcom doing. The account is blocked. The CCI is started. As to the BarkingMoon account, while there was certainly some suggestive evidence, there was also some contradictory and pretty-well-impossible-to-fake technical evidence against it, which is why the checkusers couldn't confirm any connection between the BarkingMoon and Rlevse accounts. As is standard when the technical evidence can't absolutely support a conclusion, the Committee points to the ability of the community to impose its own sanctions based on editing behaviour that is unacceptable (whether by personal attacks, copyvios, or other disruption). Myself, what few edits I'd seen before by PumpkinSky wouldn't have led me to think it was a return of Rlevse; on a quick look at some of the non-article edits, my first thought would have been a different previous account and I'm pretty sure others posting in this thread can think of a few "frequent flyers" this could have been. I don't see any emails sent to Arbcom by PumpkinSky, ever, nor does he show up on a search of my arbcom or personal emails either. Arbcom certainly doesn't know the back stories of every account editing Wikipedia, nor do we monitor the activities on every page of the project, and frankly that's way, way beyond the job description. Amalthea did good work here, and that should be recognised. But not knowing that a certain former editor has returned under a new username is not a failing of Arbcom or of Functionaries. I rather doubt anyone wants to participate in that kind of a police state. Risker (talk) 03:29, 2 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

To be perfectly blunt, the amount of email ArbCom is receiving at the moment is too much for me to follow in a timely manner. I've just now commented on the email. Rather than corruption, what we have is an enthusiastic new arbitrator who has made it his or her mission to reply to everything the committee receives, copying the entire committee in the process since we have no CRM solution, as well as a ton of legitimate and important email re: vetting the new AUSC members and the occasional email re: one of our open cases. Jclemens (talk) 03:47, 2 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

(e.c.) According to Risker immediately above Jclemens' post: "As is standard when the technical evidence can't absolutely support a conclusion, the Committee points to the ability of the community to impose its own sanctions based on editing behaviour that is unacceptable (whether by personal attacks, copyvios, or other disruption)." This brings to my mind the fuss over the current ScottyBerg where the technical evidence supports Scotty and his alleged sockmaster using the same ISP and both being in New York City, which clearly does not absolutely support a conclusion. Yet, the community is denied even a summary of the editing behaviour behind its (apparently infaliable) conclusion, nor has any substantial evidence of unacceptable behaviour (other than socking) been suggested. So, is Risker wrong sbout standard practice, or was it abandoned in Scotty's case, or is there some other explanation for the substantial discrepancy in handling the two cases? EdChem (talk) 03:59, 2 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

You know it's funny, people keep saying "you won't give us the evidence" and I don't know why. I've pointed anyone who asked at all the evidence there is. The Mantanmoreland SPI is onwiki. All the socks are listed. The contribs of all the socks are available for you to run any comparison tool you like. Everyone knows that the allegation is that Mantanmoreland is Weiss, and that he edits the same stuff as he blogs. Weiss's blog is online. You can do the comparisons yourself, and if you don't think it's enough evidence, then of course you are entitled to say that. There's no reason in this case for the community not to consider whether they would block/unblock based on the whole set of circumstances. Picking sox is rarely an exact science - I can't do Count Iblis's maths, but he's right that very often it is a percentages game. Elen of the Roads (talk) 16:30, 2 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

(edit conflict) I had some conversations with Pumpkinsky and hadn't cottoned on, although in retrospect it looks much clearer. The existence of yet further copyvios is concerning and needs investigation obviously. I'd add the committee only became aware of it as a body today. As an arb and member of a committee, speaking for myself, I have found the situations where one suspects but cannot prove y=x as frustrating as one often needs to avoid speculation and stick to facts, moreso than as a lone editor. Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:05, 2 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

@Edchem - there are different issues with each case, and each has factors unique to it. Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:05, 2 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

(edit conflict)@Edchem, perhaps I have misworded that somewhat. I was referring to situations where there is technical evidence that contradicts the conclusions being drawn based on editing behaviour. In the case of ScottyBerg, there is no such contradiction. There have been a couple of accounts that users have been convinced for various reasons was the return of a banned user, but technical evidence has directly contradicted it. Simply put, if an account is behaving very badly, it doesn't really matter what the technical results say, the community is well within its rights to sanction the account directly (i.e., without the socking accusation attached), and the community doesn't really need Arbcom to give its blessing to that. Risker (talk) 04:15, 2 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

Under controversial circumstances

I think a very good case has been made here and on the Administrators' Noticeboard that there should be a ^[1] after Rlevse's entry at Wikipedia:Former administrators. What mechanism is in place to get that done? Do I need to file a formal request or can ArbCom just take the initiative and make an official statement to this effect? 28bytes (talk) 03:06, 3 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

It used to be that a few editors updated the former admin list including me. At first this wasn't considered under crowd, just a dramatic way of leaving the project and hoping he will come back someway, something that is kinda often in administrators. But considering now the sockpuppet mess and attacks and so fourth, it's clear that Rlevse will never get his tools back without an RFA. I did add a 1 next to Rlevse name as he was blocked indef, but got reverted. This is common sense under a cloud, unfortunately. Secret ^account 03:24, 3 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

• First off, Arbcom hasn't used the "under a cloud" terminology in at least four years, and it's time for the community to catch up here; I've changed the heading of this section. Secondly, this is a dead horse. Does anyone think that Rlevse is going to waltz back onto the project, pop over to the Bureaucrat's noticeboard, and be handed his bits back? The question should be directed to bureaucrats, not Arbcom, per the policy. Risker (talk) 04:23, 3 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

• First I'd heard that "under a cloud" had been deprecated. Better send the memo to the 'crats; it's a pretty heavily used phrase on WP:BN. 28bytes (talk) 04:34, 3 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

• (ec) I reverted Secret because the specific text of the footnote did not apply to this situation. However, I would not re-grant admin or crat tools to Rlevse if he were to request them based on my own subjective judgment of there being a cloud and I suspect all my colleague-crats would behave the same way. But, he has not requested it, so #4 does not apply and Arbcom hasn't ruled, so #1 does not apply. MBisanz ^talk 04:35, 3 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

Is the arbitration committee aware of any heretofore undisclosed misbehavior Rlevse committed? Specifically as this might have concerned user:jojo? Raul654 (talk) 01:53, 3 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

User:JoJo. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:55, 3 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

Futhermore, is the arbitration committee aware of any other heretofore undisclosed facts regarding Rlevse's behavior that would materially affect a ban discussion involving him? Raul654 (talk) 02:46, 3 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

Risker, you said:

As to the BarkingMoon account, while there was certainly some suggestive evidence, there was also some contradictory and pretty-well-impossible-to-fake technical evidence against it, which is why the checkusers couldn't confirm any connection between the BarkingMoon and Rlevse accounts.

Considering that ArbCom knew there was evidence of possible inappropriate editing with his wife's account, and also considering that as a former arb, Rlevse knew how technical CU data worked hence we know how to avoid detection, what can you add now that the cat's out of the bag to convince us that ArbCom didn't leave FAC swinging in the breeze with someone looking to grind an axe against "FAC leadership"?

Specifically, it's beginning to look like you all knew that Rlevse was the arb-leaker, and were trying to keep a lid on the damage he could do. Understandable, but FAC has been out here swinging in the breeze, with no help at all from the arbs. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:23, 3 February 2012 (UTC)Reply

I can tell you categorically that Rlevse was not the "arb-leaker", and you need to stop casting aspersions like that, SandyGeorgia. Rlevse did not have access to much of the information that was leaked from arbcom-L as he had been removed from the list months before. Risker (talk) 04:26, 3 February 2012 (UTC)Reply