Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Motorsport: Difference between revisions - Wikipedia

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== Auto racing team categories ==

In May 2023, all the "<country> auto racing teams" categories were moved without discussion to "Auto racing teams in <country>", e.g. [[:Category:Australian auto racing teams]] was moved to [[:Category:Auto racing teams in Australia]]. At the time, there was a [[Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Formula_One/Archive_56#Auto racing team categories|discussion at WT:F1]] where the consensus was that the moves should be reverted (because, for example, [[Red Bull Racing]] is definitely an "Austrian auto racing team" but it's questionable whether it's an "auto racing team in Austria", because its base is in England), but nothing ever came of it. I'm still of the opinion that the moves should be reverted, so I thought I'd check if there is consensus in this wider forum before lodging a request. [[User:DH85868993|DH85868993]] ([[User talk:DH85868993|talk]]) 11:32, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

:This shoud reverted per the consensus reached on the previous discussion. Besides Red Bull F1 team, there are a lot more teams that its location differs from their license like Toyota (WEC and WRC), Hyundai (WRC), McLaren at Indy and new Prema team at Indy. It makes more sense saying that Toyota is Japanese and grouping with other japanese teams or saying McLaren British instead of saying Toyota is based in Koln (or that Finnish town with funny name) and putting in same category as Abt or Porsche Motorsport, or that McLaren indy team is located in the US. [[User:Rpo.castro|Rpo.castro]] ([[User talk:Rpo.castro|talk]]) 12:31, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

::The problem with this is the sources. You can easily find sources for addresses I imagine, but not so much licenses. [[User:Rally Wonk|Rally Wonk]] ([[User talk:Rally Wonk|talk]]) 15:24, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

:::It will be a similar situation with drivers. The question that nationality/license in teams is less relevant/notable than in drivers. When the license is different from the country where the team is based, being an odd situation, I believe it will be highly sourced (depending on the notability of the team of course). If there isn't that discrepancy, that will be less likely to be mentioned. [[User:Rpo.castro|Rpo.castro]] ([[User talk:Rpo.castro|talk]]) 20:54, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

:Fully support moving back [[User:SSSB|SSSB]] ([[User talk:SSSB|talk]]) 17:39, 6 June 2024 (UTC)▼

:Also agree with moving back because the teams are identified by FIA license nationality, not physical location, so use of "in" is factually incorrect. [[User:Oknazevad|oknazevad]] ([[User talk:Oknazevad|talk]]) 20:40, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

::I have proposed that the categories be renamed. The discussion is at [[Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 June 11#Auto racing teams]]. [[User:DH85868993|DH85868993]] ([[User talk:DH85868993|talk]]) 11:40, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

:I don't want to get too pedantic here but can I suggest ''motorsport'' in place of ''auto racing'' ? That really grates. Lesser so, but still dare I also raise that some might not be teams, some are also manufacturers or engineering companies. [[User:Rally Wonk|Rally Wonk]] ([[User talk:Rally Wonk|talk]]) 15:22, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

::{{reply|Rally Wonk}} Re "auto racing" vs "motorsport": the categories are part of the [[:Category:Auto racing]] category tree and don't include any non-auto racing motorsport teams (e.g. they don't include motorcycle racing teams, which are under the separate [[:Category:Motorcycle racing]] category tree). The consensus for the nomination was based on a simple revert of the speedy renames (which would retain the "auto racing" names). Merging the "auto racing team" and "non auto racing team" categories to form "motorsport team" categories could perhaps be the subject of a separate discussion. [[User:DH85868993|DH85868993]] ([[User talk:DH85868993|talk]]) 21:59, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

:::OK no worries, it's not worth discussing further. There is a language barrier the size of the Atlantic Ocean here, it's been a discussion had too many times and on reflection is not worth having again for this. [[User:Rally Wonk|Rally Wonk]] ([[User talk:Rally Wonk|talk]]) 22:43, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

{{od}}Update: the discussion has been [[Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2024_June_21#Auto_racing_teams|relisted]] due to a lack of input. [[User:DH85868993|DH85868993]] ([[User talk:DH85868993|talk]]) 05:17, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

:The categories have been reverted to their original names. Thanks to everyone who participated in the various discussions. [[User:DH85868993|DH85868993]] ([[User talk:DH85868993|talk]]) 12:15, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

=="{{noredirect|Rallying}}"==

FYI, the name and primary topic of [[Rallying]] is under discussion at a move request. See [[talk:Rallying]] -- [[Special:Contributions/64.229.90.32|64.229.90.32]] ([[User talk:64.229.90.32|talk]]) 05:21, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

== Sir John Venables-Llewelyn ==

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:::::::::Thank you for clarifying, I respect your vote, subject knowledge and opinion. But the table is a championship standings table on the championship article. I retain my opinion that the table should include the story of the championship, which includes all the drivers entered into it, especially where there are separate articles for each round. [[User:Rally Wonk|Rally Wonk]] ([[User talk:Rally Wonk|talk]]) 20:08, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

::::::::::And I respect your opinion, but I don't see how "Tsolov finished 4th in the Bahrain sprint, and 11th in feature, ..., Tsolov was suspended for Belgian" can constitute a story. A story needs context. A row of of numbers and abbreviations with (let's be honest) vague definitions cannot ever provide enough context to constitute a story. Unless of course we find abbreviations for "driving in another series without permission from the FIA" (is that the reason [[2024 FIA Formula 3 Championship]] is very vague. In which case we probably need one for "did not enter as driver was imprisoned for aggravated assault as a result of toad rage" ([[Betrand Gachot]]; [[1991 Formula One World Championship]]) then we would have a story. So this idea that we should specify why he didn't compete to "tell a story" is completely unworkable. [[User:SSSB|SSSB]] ([[User talk:SSSB|talk]]) 21:14, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

::::::::::And that’s also why there should be nothing when a driver didn’t enter for an event. [[User:Tvx1|T]][[User Talk:Tvx1|v]][[Special:Contributions/Tvx1|x]]1 23:40, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

::::::::It's very simple though. While drivers are primarily entered for a championship. They are not automatically entered for each and every race of it. That happens through a seperate procedure. Season entry list are seperate concepts from event entry lists. [[User:Tvx1|T]][[User Talk:Tvx1|v]][[Special:Contributions/Tvx1|x]]1 18:59, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

:::::::In the nicest way possible – I'm in the industry, I don't need you to educate me on it. {{tq|No entry{{=}}blank cell}} – a blank cell doesn't preclude text. {{tq|Suspensions aren‘t results of entries}} – correct, but certain non-entries are the result of suspensions. And that, to me, is key information. "SUS" on a blank cell (as [[User:Rally Wonk]] suggested) can do the job. Just like WD, DNA, DNP and EX. [[User:MSport1005|MSport1005]] ([[User talk:MSport1005|talk]]) 18:59, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

::::::::WD, DNA, DNP an EX all follow entries for grands prix/events though, while SUS does not. That's where the bar is drawn and I cannot see any justification to deviatie from that. The FIA [https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/decision-document/2024%20Budapest%20Event%20-%20F3%20-%20Drivers%20Championship.pdf leaves their cells blank], so should we. It's not up to us to invent when a championship table should contain a result. [[User:Tvx1|T]][[User Talk:Tvx1|v]][[Special:Contributions/Tvx1|x]]1 19:09, 8 August 2024 (UTC)

:::::::::The FIA also [https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/decision-document/2023%20Yas%20Marina%20Event%20-%20F2%20Driver%20Championship%20-%20Abu%20Dhabi%202023.pdf leaves its cells empty] for withdrawals, cancellations and non-points races. Wikipedia is not the FIA. It is most definitely up to us to '''discuss''' what a championship table should contain. [[User:MSport1005|MSport1005]] ([[User talk:MSport1005|talk]]) 10:15, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

::::::::::We have made it very clear where our line is. But where is yours? Because from where I'm sitting it sounds like you want the results table to outline the reason for non-entries (despite those not being results; withdrawal, cancellation and still results). So, this means we need a code for non-entry due to suspension, and non-entry due to illness, due to injury, due to arrest, due to prior commitment, due to contract termination etc. Then it's a slippery slope till we have to specify cause of withdrawal. This is untenable and unmanageable and non of these things constitute a result, yet you want to put them into a results table? [[User:SSSB|SSSB]] ([[User talk:SSSB|talk]]) 13:18, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

:::::::::::Indeed. There just is no reason why we should make an exception for suspension. They are not championship results in any way of form. [[User:Tvx1|T]][[User Talk:Tvx1|v]][[Special:Contributions/Tvx1|x]]1 16:07, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

:::::::::::Have you even read my comments? I've made this distinctly clear.

:::::::::::* Non-entries caused by suspensions should (in my view) be outlined.

:::::::::::* Non-entries caused by injury, illness, contractual issues or whatever else '''should not'''.

:::::::::::All is reasoned above. [[User:MSport1005|MSport1005]] ([[User talk:MSport1005|talk]]) 16:49, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

::::::::::::I just re-read all your comments: you did not make this distinction clear. This is the first time you have stated that only non-entries due to suspension should be mentioned. The closest you have come previously was to state that suspension is "radically different" to withdrawing from "appendicitis". Which is true, but not convincing reasoning. Because contract termination is also radically different, so is having been arrested, or particpating in another event.{{pb}}And let me bring us back to what it is we are actually discussing: the results table. A table that only serves one purpose: to avoid us listing every single result. Firstly, a non-entry isn't a result. Secondly, if a reason for a result is note-worthy it should be discussed in prose. The result table doesn't discuss the reason for any result, and I see no reason for an exception to be made for a non-entry "result". [[User:SSSB|SSSB]] ([[User talk:SSSB|talk]]) 20:05, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

:::::::::::::I disagree to the point I will say you are incorrect. The purpose of the tables we are discussing is to display the drivers championship ''standings ''and collectively the results within summarise the inputs to that end. There is no justification to strictly define it as a 'results of entries' table. These, as independently notable, belong on their respective articles, or in a ''results ''table that could have 1st-30th on one axis with the names in the grid. Through consensus and form, this has been summarised and exists under the ''results ''table as found under[[2024 FIA Formula 3 Championship#Results and standings|Season summary on 2024 F3]].

:::::::::::::I know you don't need me to explain to you that the drivers championship is a ''title'', not the series of events, so there's no convincing reason to restrict this table to 'results of entries' of the events so strictly that when a driver doesn't enter, (one who the average person with 'no great knowledge of the subject' might expect to be taking part through looking at the rest of the table), there should be no information at all. It's the difference between somebody understanding 'that's why they didn't score points or couldn't enter' and not trusting the information or leaving uninformed. This is particularly true if Tsolov, for example, was to return to race at Monza; and the other two gentlemen that season.

:::::::::::::I've used the word 'story' before now which I think has been taken to mean a long explanation of events. To be clear, I mean that these tables are often the only place that needs to be looked at for a summary of the entire article (nobody reads articles in full), or season in this case. If I saw a SUS it tells me ''something ''and if I feel the need to read the reasons why I would read the text. A blank cell can look like an omission, error or incompleteness - and this is not helpful. I agree there's no need to put something where somebody ran out of funds mid-season or either side of only doing one event etc, but SUS is a result of direct official measures affecting the ability to get a result.

:::::::::::::Nobody looks at the tables to see who finished 18th in each of the races for example, or who won a particular race as there are the articles for that. People care about how the season progressed, which has no need to be restricted to 'results of entries'. I think this a rule you have imposed on yourself. [[User:Rally Wonk|Rally Wonk]] ([[User talk:Rally Wonk|talk]]) 21:31, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

::::::::::::::Why are we descending into this again? I already explained you that tables should NOT replace prose. Tables cannot be the only thing that contains all the information. Tables do NOT need to be to only things people look at. That’s just not how Wikipedia works. [[User:Tvx1|T]][[User Talk:Tvx1|v]][[Special:Contributions/Tvx1|x]]1 23:38, 9 August 2024 (UTC)

:::::::::::::::Again, nobody suggested the tables should replace prose nor should be the only place to carry all the information. We're all very clear on this.

:::::::::::::::Nobody suggested tables ''must'' be the only thing people look at. I did however say tables ''quite often are'' the only place people look, with reasonable expectation that reasonable information is included.

:::::::::::::::If you want to read words that aren't there instead of responding to the points I've raised about it being a ''championship standings table'', it comes across as obstinance. So why do we continue this discussion?

:::::::::::::::I shall take my efforts and put them into improving articles instead. [[User:Rally Wonk|Rally Wonk]] ([[User talk:Rally Wonk|talk]]) 08:14, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

::::::::::::::::Tables cannot substitute prose. We can all agree on that. So if someone chooses to just look at the table and ignore the prose, its because he isn't interested in the prose, just results, and he won't get the results. "The person won't understand why he didn't scored points". If the reader is interested in finding why, he will have to look at the prose. Can't expect to look at a table that its just a summary and a mean to provide visual aid. As including SUS, but not other absences like the illness, how would you distinct the several types of suspensions? By superlicense points or sportings manner, or for extra F1 reasons like politics or crime related? Will we make room just for some (the sport related ones) or bring them all? And if a driver with a very long contract gets a very long suspension, lets say 1,5 years. Will he be listed in results table for 1,5 season? Does this make any sense? I'm against this SUS. The driver didn't take part in the competition on that weekend, he as no result. Either because it was for competing in another series, being ill, not having money, the team not having money, or being suspended, that should be in prose. Is there any prose missing in any article? Looks room for improvement. [[User:Rpo.castro|Rpo.castro]] ([[User talk:Rpo.castro|talk]]) 09:11, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

:::::::::::::::::AFAIK, there is only one type of suspension - the temporary official restriction on use of a competition licence. The reasons behind them don't belong in a table. If the driver belongs in the championship standings, sure, put SUS but no need if there were no starts that season.

:::::::::::::::::There is a distinction between ''Did not enter'' and ''Could not enter'' which is worth including as a visual aid. So far, there has not been a convincing reason why it is not.

:::::::::::::::::A driver who was ill is more likely to withdraw an entry, and some of these hypothetical scenarios are genuine ''Did not enters''. A SUS may cover where a driver did enter but the disciplinary came before publication of entries - which I have seen now is on the race weekend. [[User:Rally Wonk|Rally Wonk]] ([[User talk:Rally Wonk|talk]]) 10:15, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

::::::::::::::::::No there is not distinction between ''did not enter'' en ''could no enter.'' No entered is not entered. [[User:Tvx1|T]][[User Talk:Tvx1|v]][[Special:Contributions/Tvx1|x]]1 11:23, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

:::::::::::::::::::Thank you. [[User:Rally Wonk|Rally Wonk]] ([[User talk:Rally Wonk|talk]]) 11:51, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

::::::::::::::::Same here. There is no discussion. Points are being raised and nobody's listening. No counter-argument beyond "no entry = empty cell", which is quite literally the basis being challenged. I'm not bothered about an FIA F3 points table enough to keep wasting my time. [[User:MSport1005|MSport1005]] ([[User talk:MSport1005|talk]]) 09:28, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

:::::::::::::::::Oh come on. @[[User:SSSB|SSSB]] and [[User:Rpo.castro|Rpo.castro]] have given pretty clear explanations, but you just refuse to accept them. Meanwhile, neither of you two have actually provided a sensible argument as to why a lone exception should be made for non-entrires through suspensions. [[User:Tvx1|T]][[User Talk:Tvx1|v]][[Special:Contributions/Tvx1|x]]1 11:39, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

::::::::::::::::::{{tq|"Sensible arguments"}}. Classy way to go about a discussion... Have a nice day. [[User:MSport1005|MSport1005]] ([[User talk:MSport1005|talk]]) 13:05, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

:::::::::::::::::::You can discard all our arguments and when we point out that you have convinced no one with yours, you’re gonna lecture ME about class? Nice going. [[User:Tvx1|T]][[User Talk:Tvx1|v]][[Special:Contributions/Tvx1|x]]1 14:29, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

:::::::::::::::::::This is what I meant by earlier by angry and insulting. He has no respect for others, or the concept of consensus editing. --[[User:Falcadore|Falcadore]] ([[User talk:Falcadore|talk]]) 06:52, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

::::::::::::::::::::The user has already been reported for uncivil behavior [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/IncidentArchive1151#Constant_violation_of_WP:UNCIVIL_by_User:MSport1005 here]. [[User:MSportWiki|MSportWiki]] ([[User talk:MSportWiki|talk]]) 03:16, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

::::::::::::::::::::Yes, it's frustrating. [[User:Rally Wonk]] tried to reason with them on their talk page, the reply they got was also [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk%3ATvx1&diff=1239783637&oldid=1239768776 not very appreciative].

::::::::::::::::::::Either way, I think your view (leaving the cells empty) has prevailed, so I will remove the EX's in [[2019 Formula 2 Championship]] and [[2022 Formula 2 Championship]]. [[User:MSport1005|MSport1005]] ([[User talk:MSport1005|talk]]) 15:01, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

:::::::::::::::::::::I don‘t think you‘re talking about the same person here. Falcadore appears to be talking about you. As for the conversation on my talk page, is it really that surprising that I was not very appreciative to someone who asks me on my talk page to step away from the discussion. [[User:Tvx1|T]][[User Talk:Tvx1|v]][[Special:Contributions/Tvx1|x]]1 18:04, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

::::::::::::::::::::::If you want to complain about each other, either do it on the user talk pages (by all means, ping each other) or at [[WP:AIN]], where it belongs. Lets keep this page to discussing how we can improve the wikiproject and its respective articles. Because I watch this page to help improve the motorsport articles, not to watch you complain about each other. Thank you. [[User:SSSB|SSSB]] ([[User talk:SSSB|talk]]) 18:33, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

:::::::::::::::::::::::I‘m not complaining. I‘m just reacting to accusations thrown at me. The discussion itself has run its course though, so it’s better to close it now. [[User:Tvx1|T]][[User Talk:Tvx1|v]][[Special:Contributions/Tvx1|x]]1 22:16, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

::::::::::::::::::::::::Agreed. [[User:MSport1005|MSport1005]] ([[User talk:MSport1005|talk]]) 10:25, 18 August 2024 (UTC)

:I'm sure we have had this debate before. Or was that at [[WP:WikiProject Formula One]]. In any case, the only compariable case I could think of was Grosjean at the 2012 Italian Grand Prix, and the table at [[2012 Formula One World Championship]] shows a blank space. [[User:SSSB|SSSB]] ([[User talk:SSSB|talk]]) 10:44, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

::Likewise Michael Schumacher during the [[1994 Formula One World Championship]], or BAR during the [[2005 Formula One World Championship]]. [[User:Tvx1|T]][[User Talk:Tvx1|v]][[Special:Contributions/Tvx1|x]]1 19:58, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

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::::::These should not have been there. They were recently incorrectly added by an anonymous editor against consensus. I removed them again. [[User:Tvx1|T]][[User Talk:Tvx1|v]][[Special:Contributions/Tvx1|x]]1 17:18, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

:I think a blank space would be better. I think Excluded would be used if we that did happen during the race weekend as result of something that happened during that weekend. And we have the precedent stated by SSSB.[[User:Rpo.castro|Rpo.castro]] ([[User talk:Rpo.castro|talk]]) 12:16, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

:Is it just me or do we have a consensus that should be implemented? --[[User:Falcadore|Falcadore]] ([[User talk:Falcadore|talk]]) 06:54, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

::I'd say so. Four of you support leaving the cells empty — just two of us have contested it. [[User:MSport1005|MSport1005]] ([[User talk:MSport1005|talk]]) 10:37, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

== Types of motorsport (Wikidata) ==

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::The only occasions I see [[Automobile sport]] being used is officially by the [[FIA]]. I have never seen [[Auto sport]] being used anywhere. [[Autosport]] is a magazine.

::At least in Britain, [[motor racing]] would be more common, then [[car racing]] would be used secondary. Nobody uses the term [[auto racing]] unless they have been influenced by Wikipedia. I shall add two lines to your table. Of course it can only be an opinion. [[User:Rally Wonk|Rally Wonk]] ([[User talk:Rally Wonk|talk]]) 21:05, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

:An interesting point to add, the FIA organise the [[FIA Motorsport Games]] which, being the FIA, is open to automobiles, there's no other vehicles or bodies involved. Yet, it's not the ''Auto Racing Games'' or the ''Automobile Sport Games''. This fits in with the Olympic structure and ASNs from 72 nations from around the world sent teams, including the USA and Canada. [[User:Rally Wonk|Rally Wonk]] ([[User talk:Rally Wonk|talk]]) 14:17, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

{| class="wikitable plainrowheaders" style="text-align:center;"

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:There are 90+ language links on [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q5386 Wikidata/Auto racing], most of them do not belong there. Some may belong to [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q112341544 Automobilism], however in some languages that includes sport whereas in English it means car culture. Many would need moving to [https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q9340418 Automobile sport]. It might be worth waiting for more comments before undertaking this.

:Then there is the category structure to think of. [[User:Rally Wonk|Rally Wonk]] ([[User talk:Rally Wonk|talk]]) 16:07, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

::What do you mean with "If it's possible to language link to a redirect it should have been done long ago."? Do you doubt its possible to link an article in a language to a redirect in other language? [[User:Rpo.castro|Rpo.castro]] ([[User talk:Rpo.castro|talk]]) 15:48, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

:::Yes, that. If using redirects had been raised in [[Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Motorsport/Archive 25#Basic question for Wikiproject Motorsport|this conversation]] that you and I were both involved in, even I could have done it before.

:::This point has been discussed multiple times over the years, for example [[Talk:Auto racing#Why motorsport redirects to Auto racing?|this 17 year old question]] still on [[Talk:Auto racing]], the first of many on that talk page. Maybe it could have been done in that time. [[User:Rally Wonk|Rally Wonk]] ([[User talk:Rally Wonk|talk]]) 16:54, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

::::I'm only aware that we could link articles to redirect pages in wikidata since somewhere in past year and never remembered to bring it up. [[User:Rpo.castro|Rpo.castro]] ([[User talk:Rpo.castro|talk]]) 07:05, 11 August 2024 (UTC)

:I have noticed there is ratcher "[[car industry]]" instead of "[[automobile industry]]". So it's different in this case or? "Car/Automobile industry" is a part of "automotive industry". I don't know why there is no "[[bus industry]]" and "[[truck industry]]". [[User:Eurohunter|Eurohunter]] ([[User talk:Eurohunter|talk]]) 19:54, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

:"[[Automobile model]]" was moved to "[[car model]]". [[User:Eurohunter|Eurohunter]] ([[User talk:Eurohunter|talk]]) 19:57, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

:: {{re|Rpo.castro}}, {{re|Rally Wonk}}, {{re|SSSB}} What do you think? [[User:Eurohunter|Eurohunter]] ([[User talk:Eurohunter|talk]]) 17:33, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

:::I can understand why Automobile model was moved to Car model. Car is used more than automobile for automobiles, but not all cars are automobiles.

:::Car/automobile/bus/truck/... industry all belong in [[automotive industry]] until the point there is too much content and a split is necessary. Unlikely, as nobody wants to write about it. [[User:Rally Wonk|Rally Wonk]] ([[User talk:Rally Wonk|talk]]) 18:31, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

::::What definitions of car and automobile are you using? Because I just googled and the answers said that "car" can also refer to train cars. Meanwhile automobiles can also be refer to buses, trucks etc. (Again according to Google). [[User:SSSB|SSSB]] ([[User talk:SSSB|talk]]) 19:02, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

:::::I wasn't broadly talking definitions but the common use, I'm not sure the question was anything but opinion and experience, although I did google a few phrases to see what results came back. There is no use of 'lorry industry' or 'van industry', for example.

:::::The only definitive point I made was about not all cars are automobiles, you can also have:

:::::*[[Aerial lift|cable car]]

:::::*[[roller coaster car]]

:::::*[[Tram|trolley/tram car]]

:::::*[[rail car]] (and box car/dining car/coal car etc.)

:::::*[[soap box car]]

:::::*[[elevator car]]

:::::and so on. But in usage, 'car' alone is the automobile kind.

:::::I'm happy with the definition of [[Automobile]] found at [[Car]]; vans, trucks and busses are not automobiles to me. The FIA has a definition of Automobile for sporting purposes but other international bodies tend to use 'Car', but I think this is heading off-topic. [[User:Rally Wonk|Rally Wonk]] ([[User talk:Rally Wonk|talk]]) 21:52, 14 August 2024 (UTC)

== Notability of speedway riders ==

Numerous articles regarding [[motorcycle speedway]] riders have been nominated for deletion both recently and in the past, but whilst these deletion discussions appear under [[Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Motorsport]], I get the impression that most motorsport editors have little-or-no knowledge of speedway racing and thus aren't able to really constructively contribute to these discussions. It would perhaps be desirable to establish which sources, if any, carry coverage of these speedway riders and how reliable these sources are. [[User:HumanBodyPiloter5|HumanBodyPiloter5]] ([[User talk:HumanBodyPiloter5|talk]]) 15:32, 5 August 2024 (UTC)

:I admit I do not have much knowledge as I do not have access to cable TV. My recommendation is that [[WP:NMOTORSPORT]] shoud also apply to international and national speedway events. In historic cases, a rider who has appeared in a [[Speedway World Championship]] title deciding finals, should be considered notable. [[User:SpacedFarmer|SpacedFarmer]] ([[User talk:SpacedFarmer|talk]]) 23:15, 15 August 2024 (UTC)

::[[WP:NMOTORSPORT]] is not a policy, it's a guideline. Access to cable television isn't particularly relevant here, the issue is whether independent [[WP:RS|reliable sources]] exist that are giving [[WP:SIGCOV|significant coverage]] to these speedway riders. [[User:HumanBodyPiloter5|HumanBodyPiloter5]] ([[User talk:HumanBodyPiloter5|talk]]) 23:16, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

== Requested move at [[Talk:Andrea Kimi Antonelli#Requested move 3 September 2024]] ==

[[File:Information.svg|30px|left]] There is a requested move discussion at [[Talk:Andrea Kimi Antonelli#Requested move 3 September 2024]] that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. [[User:ModernDayTrilobite|ModernDayTrilobite]] ([[User talk:ModernDayTrilobite|talk]] • [[Special:Contributions/ModernDayTrilobite|contribs]]) 17:03, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

▲:FullyNote: the discussion has been closed. The article supportwas movingnot backmoved. [[User:SSSB|SSSB]] ([[User talk:SSSB|talk]]) 1711:3932, 614 JuneSeptember 2024 (UTC)

== Re-adding NASCAR Xfinity and truck races to track articles? ==

I noticed in some track articles that NASCAR Xfinity and truck races are getting removed from the Event sections, even for tracks that have more history with those two series but are being removed due to recent Cup racing there. I wonder if we can re-add those races to just the Event section? [[User:MysticCipher87(alt-account)|MysticCipher87(alt-account)]] ([[User talk:MysticCipher87(alt-account)|talk]]) 14:22, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

: These are basically just the junior series of the NASCAR Cup and, with a few exceptions, they take part one the same weekend with the cup race. I would mention them in sidebars of track articles where they race exclusively without a Cup series event. Otherwise the sidebar would be too long. For example: then you would also have to mention the junior series (Formula 2, Formula 3, FIA Academy) for Formula 1 tracks, too. In any case, as I wrote in the previous discussion, Xfinity and Truck Series should be mentioned in the race track's history section. Especially on some tracks like Gateway, Iowa, Nashville or Kentucky, the small series ran long before the first Cup event. --[[User:Mark McWire|Mark McWire]] ([[User talk:Mark McWire|talk]]) 21:46, 1 October 2024 (UTC)