Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard: Difference between revisions - Wikipedia

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::::Thank you for the reply. You are correct that you and I have not disagreed on the reliability of sources, so I should have instead suggested [[WP:NPOVN]] over [[WP:RSN]], my apologies. I see [[Special:Diff/1245024333|Austronesier's reply]]. I agree with their concern about not repeating as fact things that were later debunked. For instance, from my read, early reports were overly hasty in characterizing ''why'' these rituals were taking place. However, the issue I see is that it's ''not actually in dispute'' whether "ritual action in pursuit of cargo" actually happened. On [[Talk:Cargo cult]] I see a lot of dismissiveness - saying that the cargo cult story is a "pop culture myth" and such. I think this is painting with too broad a brush. Because when I actually look at [https://www.anthroencyclopedia.com/entry/cargo-cults the source] that we agree is high quality, it clearly says in the abstract that cargo cults actually typically did do these things. What do you make of this? I would agree that the lede should avoid feeding racially charged stereotypes and such, but it also shouldn't hedge to the point of meaninglessness. I would love to find a compromise on this point. [[User:Leijurv|Leijurv]] ([[User talk:Leijurv|talk]]) 18:14, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

:::::I took it to NPOVN a few months ago when the dispute originally flared up, but there was little response as far as I could tell. I think part of the problem is that it's easy to see "cargo cults" as this abstract concept, but in reality "cargo cults" are an umbrella label used to lump together a variety of distinct religious movements who had their own particular beliefs and practices (Lindstrom says in the article that the term is used to {{tq|label almost any sort of organised, village-based social movement with religious and political aspirations}}, which notably makes no mention of any sort of cargo, or even prophets or ritual action), and it's important not to lose sight of that. It's also important not to lose sight of the fact that Lindstrom notes that "cargo" in the anthropological literature {{tq|meant more than mere manufactured goods}} and could also signify {{tq|moral salvation, existential respect, or proto-nationalistic, anti-colonial desire for political autonomy}}. [[User:Hemiauchenia|Hemiauchenia]] ([[User talk:Hemiauchenia|talk]]) 18:30, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

::::::If you don't mind, I'll go in on these specific quotes. The source says {{tqq|‘Cargo cult’ quickly spread through Australian academia and beyond as anthropologists and journalists borrowed the term to label almost any sort of organised, village-based social movement with religious and political aspirations—movements that were increasingly on the colonialist and academic radar throughout Melanesia, as elsewhere.}} The problem I see, is that journalists '''borrowed the term'''. I don't think it's fair to take only the second part of the sentence, because when you read the whole sentence it says that the term was borrowed then used in an overly broad way. I would be okay with saying "Some Australian journalists and anthropologists borrowed the term to mean almost any sort of organized ...", but it's misleading to say quote only the second half of the sentence, and I definitely don't agree that this ''defines'' the term cargo cult in general. Rather than taking the second half of a sentence (whose first half undermines its utility as a definition), why not take the abstract of this article? It specifically talks about the modal cargo cult, here it is (emphasis mine): {{tqq|... the modal cargo cult was an agitation or organised social movement of Melanesian villagers '''in pursuit of ‘cargo’ by means of renewed or invented ritual action''' that they hoped would induce ancestral spirits or other powerful beings to provide. Typically, an inspired prophet with messages from those spirits persuaded a community that social harmony and engagement in improvised ritual (dancing, marching, flag-raising) or revived cultural traditions '''would, for believers, bring them cargo'''. Ethnographers suggested that '''‘cargo’ was often Western commercial goods and money''', but it could also signify moral salvation, existential respect, or proto-nationalistic, anti-colonial desire for political autonomy. ...}} Secondly, yes, cargo '''can''' be more than mere manufactured goods, and it '''can''' signify those other more abstract concepts. The problem is that again you've cut off the first part of the sentence. (emphasis mine) {{tqq|Ethnographers suggested that '''‘cargo’ was often Western commercial goods and money, but it could also signify''' moral salvation, existential respect, or proto-nationalistic, anti-colonial desire for political autonomy.}} The issue is that it's "often" Western goods. Or, look at the other source, Otto (2009), which says {{tqq|As far as Melanesia is concerned, the cargo cult concept highlights a range of millenarian ideas, cults, and movements that originated in the wake of Western colonization and, more often than not, involved a strong concern with the acquisition of Western goods—the cargo.}} So, yes, "cargo cult" (the term) has been used broadly, but that's a misleading quote and the abstract does actually give the typical characteristics of a cargo cult. And yes, cargo can mean other things, but "typically" or "often" it was actually Western goods.

::::::So I hope this makes clear the issue that I see, it's a matter of [[WP:DUE]] weight and [[WP:NPOV]]. It's undue weight to say that cargo cults '''sometimes''' foretold Western goods and sometimes didn't. No, cargo cults '''usually/typically/often''' foretold Western goods, according to the article's cited sources, and it wouldn't be neutral to imply otherwise. [[User:Leijurv|Leijurv]] ([[User talk:Leijurv|talk]]) 18:42, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

:::::::TLDR summary: Since the sources say that the cargo in question was '''typically''' Western goods but could sometimes be a more abstract concept, we should convey '''precisely''' that. We should not editorialize that down and say that cargo was '''sometimes''' Western goods. [[User:Leijurv|Leijurv]] ([[User talk:Leijurv|talk]]) 18:46, 10 September 2024 (UTC)