Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Clarification and Amendment - Wikipedia


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Requests for clarification and amendment

Initiated by David Tornheim at 23:40, 13 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Case or decision affected
Genetically modified organisms arbitration case (t) (ev / t) (w / t) (pd / t)

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

Confirmation that all parties are aware of the request

Statement by David Tornheim

I’m sure it’s not a bad faith edit on Kingofaces43’s part; however, without having the courtesy of notifying me, Kingofaces has prominently mentioned me at this WP:AE discussion.

My question to ArbCom is this: Under the terms of my topic ban in this area, am I allowed to respond to King’s statements regarding me?

King has also prominently mentioned me with regard to my TBAN at this open WP:AN/I discussion. Am I allowed to respond there or somewhere else? Is there an appropriate venue? --David Tornheim (talk) 23:40, 13 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you to all the arbs that have weighed in. I appreciate the feedback. I support the close. --David Tornheim (talk) 17:19, 17 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Kingofaces43

I don't think much else needs to be said aside from that this filing or following the AE case is a violation of David's GMO topic ban. That's in part why they weren't pinged or alerted, which considering their topic ban, could have been considered pointy, grave-dancing, baiting, etc. if I had done so. The case also wasn't particularly relevant to David (no new sanctions being imposed on them) aside from me saying here's an example of pretty parallel behavior that got people topic-banned in the topic. People aren't always familiar with the GMO aspersions principle and the history of it, so examples of past issues with it at AE are helpful for admins who haven't followed the topic.

Either way, the topic ban was supposed to keep David out of this topic. I'm not sure why he thinks it would be ok to comment in an AE case on GMOs. If anything, it feels in similar territory as this AE case by another topic-banned editor with the take home message being that topic-banned editors should know better than to involve themselves in GMO DS issues unless it's to appeal their topic ban. We had problems at ANI with David violating their topic ban recently as well as concerns in this ANI thread of vexatious use of admin boards to proxy battleground behavior from the GMO topic. I chose to ignore it at that time after removing their initial topic-ban violation, but if this behavior continues and an admin doesn't call David out for that, it seems like a pretty straightforward subject to bring to AE. This venue's not really needed for that though, so I'm not sure what arbs could say here other than steer clear of the topic if anything. Kingofaces43 (talk) 00:53, 14 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Tryptofish

It seems to me that if anyone proposes any kind of sanctions or other actions against David, anywhere, David has every right to respond, anywhere – but that's not what's going on here. Pointing to a past case involving him does not require a response from him; the past case stands unless there is a successful appeal. And there certainly is the appearance that he has been following editors against whom he has a grudge following his GMO topic ban: link. --Tryptofish (talk) 01:12, 14 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Hijiri88

I'm frankly shocked that nothing has been done witht David since his first (one-month) block for TBAN violation. He hasn't apparently made any attempt to improve his behaviour, and has been blatantly hounding Jytdog, recently showing up at ANI for the first time in sixteen months for the sole purpose of undermining him in two separate threads. This is obviously revenge for the whole GMO mess, even though Jyt, who was already banned himself in the original case, had nothing to do with David's banning -- that didn't stop him from dancing on Jyt's metaphorical grave during the AE thread that led to his own TBAN, and it doesn't seem to be stopping him now. He has barely contributed anything to the mainspace in at least a year, and seems much more interested in picking fights. (Note that so-called "kombucha" does not appear to fall under GMO, even broadly, so neither Jyt nor David violated a TBAN simply by making edits related to it; my contention is that, by continuing to go after Jytdog as he has been, David is engaging in the same disruption that led to his TBAN, in clear retalliation for the GMO incident several years ago).

Obviously, ARCA is not the best place for me to be bringing this up, as I don't think it quite rises to the level of an ArbCom site ban at this point, but I do think the IDHT regarding his own TBAN, followed by a swift and long block, followed be storming away from the project for the better part of a year, followed by ... [1] (and probably more than a few others), followed by hounding Jytdog, combined with his barely making any noteworthy contributions to the mainspace during this time, I think this probably does rise to the level of some kind of community sanction, perhaps an indef block.

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:24, 14 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Softlavender

No comment on the request for clarification, and I have never been involved in the whole GMO stuff, but as Hijiri and Tryptofish hint above, it may be time to consider a one-way IBan of Davod Tornheim towards Jytdog and Kingofaces (and possibly others who are as yet unmentioned here). Softlavender (talk) 10:33, 16 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.

Genetically modified organisms: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Genetically modified organisms: Arbitrator views and discussion

Initiated by Tryptofish at 20:47, 16 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Case or decision affected
Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Discretionary sanctions

List of any users involved or directly affected, and confirmation that all are aware of the request:

Statement by Tryptofish

I would like to ask the Committee how one should understand the following question:

When Discretionary Sanctions are in effect, are editors expected to be on "good behavior" to a greater degree than is expected in general?

I'm asking this question based on several recent experiences at WP:AE (it doesn't matter which ones). It appears to me that enforcing administrators have become reluctant to get involved in some complaints, when the complaint is not a clear-cut and obvious one. In particular, I have been seeing administrator comments along the lines of "we expect a certain amount of nastiness in topic areas that are highly disputed, so we should just let that go." I realize of course that this is always a case-by-case sort of thing. I suspect that some of this grows out of a concern about backlash against an administrative decision, some out of the fact that there aren't very many admins working at AE, some out of the difficulty of working through tl;dr statements, and some out of the good-faith and very reasonable desire not to sanction someone for simply getting a little hot under the collar.

But I've also long believed (perhaps mistakenly) that part of the idea behind DS is that the Committee has determined that the topic area has become such a problem that there is a need to decisively clamp down on disruptive behavior, and that editors who are properly "aware" are expected not to test the boundaries of acceptable conduct. But I think I've been hearing from some AE admins that they regard conduct that has been chronic and disruptive, way beyond the typical hot under the collar situation, but that is the kind of thing that leads to a wall-of-text at WP:ANI, as suboptimal but acceptable when DS are in effect. So how should admins at AE understand the intention of DS in that regard? --Tryptofish (talk) 20:47, 16 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Worm, thanks (I think!), but I'll leave that for another conversation.  
Rob, to some degree, I think your answer (just keeping it real here) is a cop-out. OK, don't tell admins how to enforce it, but ArbCom can still say what DS means. How should enforcing admins understand it? Of course, my asking this is intended to put ArbCom on the record for whatever you collectively decide to say, even if you decide to say pretty much nothing. I actually do "patrol" (or, more accurately, watchlist) the topic areas that interest me (which would make me involved if I were an admin), and I do bring what I am sure are valid concerns to AE. If ArbCom just wants to say that it's entirely up to the enforcing admins, then so be it, but I don't think that's in the community's best interest. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:19, 17 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Mkdw, thanks, that's very helpful. As a follow-up, I'm particularly interested in where you say This says to me that general community norms are meant to be preserved as much as possible, but when an editor departs from these norms to any degree, there is far less leniency granted. I see that sentence as being at the heart of what I am asking. It sounds to me like, as far as what I called "good behavior" goes, the basic concept of what that is, is the same with or without DS, but when DS are present, it is expected that there will be "far less leniency" for deviations from proper conduct. Is that correct? --Tryptofish (talk) 20:27, 17 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Reading the new comments from Katie and Worm, I think it's a useful distinction that you both make: better-than-average is not required, but worse-than-average behavior is a problem. That makes sense to me, and also makes me see a way to make my original question more focused:
When Discretionary Sanctions are in effect, to what degree is worse-than-average conduct acceptable? Putting it another way, should AE admins expect aware editors in DS areas not to test the lower limits of what is regarded as acceptable conduct? Worse-than-average behavior is a problem – but does that mean that it is also sanctionable at AE, as opposed to being a problem that we just have to live with?
--Tryptofish (talk) 18:01, 18 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Pine

Do we know of any research that shows what effects the Arbcom authorization of Discretionary Sanctions has, if any, both positive and negative? Research of this nature could shed some light on whether modifications or clarifications, such as Tryptofish mentions, would be good. The scope of my question is broader than Tryptofish's question, but there is some overlap. I'm not proposing modifications or clarifications, or opposing modifications or clarifications, but I think that a review of research would be beneficial before deciding what next steps to take. --Pine✉ 19:54, 17 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Kingofaces43

This is a good clarification question being posed. I have a bit of a followup related to the interplay of DS and ArbCom. When behavior X is a major disruptive issue in the topic, arbs can pass motions as a finding of fact saying it has caused disruption while allowing general DS in the topic or even passing principles or DS specifically saying such behavior is not appropriate instead.

Now when it comes to AE, editors can present such behavior and say ArbCom has said this isn't appropriate. Admins are free to say what degree of sanctions are needed or not, etc. However, when admins say they expect that level of behavior in DS topics or even say they don't think that behavior is a problem, isn't that contradicting ArbCom to a degree? Admins obviously have discretion with discretionary sanctions, but can that discretion contradict ArbCom findings that specific behavior is problem when it comes to these behavior issues Tryptofish is talking about? Kingofaces43 (talk) 00:55, 18 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by {other-editor}

Other editors are free to make relevant comments on this request as necessary. Comments here should opine whether and how the Committee should clarify or amend the decision or provide additional information.

Discretionary sanctions: Clerk notes

This area is used for notes by the clerks (including clerk recusals).

Discretionary sanctions: Arbitrator views and discussion

  • I see discretionary sanctions as providing more tools to administrators, but I don't think the Committee intended to comment on how those tools should be deployed simply by making them available. It's ultimately up to enforcing administrators to decide how to use the tools we've given them to enforce policy. It's worth noting that any administrator can sanction an editor under discretionary sanctions, and it can only be overturned by consensus. If you think something has gone unenforced routinely at AE despite being a violation of policy, as long as that view isn't too outlandish, you're welcome to patrol the area yourself and enforce our community norms of behavior. ~ Rob13Talk 03:46, 17 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    Except that Tryptofish doesn't actually hold the admin bit. Something he could always email me about ;) WormTT(talk) 10:13, 17 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • My interpretation is that the answer is no with an obvious caveat. In looking back at the history of discretionary sanctions, the wording on expectations and the role of administrators has changed very little:
"To this end, administrators are expected to use their experience and judgment to balance the need to assume good faith, to avoid biting genuine newcomers and to allow responsible contributors maximum editing freedom with the need to keep edit-warring, battleground conduct, and disruptive behaviour to a minimum."
This says to me that general community norms are meant to be preserved as much as possible, but when an editor depart from these norms to any degree, there is far less leniency granted. Standard discretionary sanctions rely on the judgement of administrators because they are expected to evaluate a situation and determine when an editor is engaging in battleground conduct and disruptive behaviour. Intent and impact are crucial determining factors when assessing if an editor's actions have inflamed a contentious area. I cannot say I envy the job administrators that regularly patrol these areas, but AE and community consensus are both a support resource, and a check and balance to the process. Arbitration being the last resort. The Committee then has to make further decisions as to whether appropriate civility restrictions are required, or whether broad civility probation conditions should be introduced. I would be curious to hear from others at AE and the community if they feel there should be more strict expectations on behaviour in topic areas covered by standard discretionary sanctions. Mkdw talk 20:16, 17 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I think there is a set tolerance for "bad" behaviour that defines community norms. Anything below those norms, or as you put it "worse than normal", the use of authorized discretionary sanctions should be considered to stabilize contentious topic areas. Mkdw talk 19:35, 18 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Kingofaces43: On principle, our conduct policies are supposed to be universally applied across the entire project. There is a much stronger policy-based argument on that point than there is on the argument claiming editors working in contentious areas are entitled to an easements of these policies. We have serious problems on Wikipedia about consistency as evidently seen by the treatment of newcomers versus experienced editors. Following 'best practice' would be to not to perpetuate these systemic problems further into contentious areas that would conversely more likely benefit from structure and clear expectations. Mkdw talk 20:34, 18 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't think topic areas with discretionary sanctions necessarily require better than average behavior, if you will; it's more that worse than average behavior has been observed in those areas on a consistent basis in the past. Like Mkdw, I'd like to hear from others about the need and desire for higher behavioral expectations in these topic areas. Katietalk 11:21, 18 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • In my mind, Discretionary Sanctions are an additional set of tools in an admins belt, to make things easier for the community, They're applied in contentious and evocative areas, where the norms of community behaviour can become forgotten - and rather than have escalating complaints over and over, a single uninvolved admin can use their judgement to do things that the community would normally have to do as a whole. Now, this is a very powerful set of tools, and shouldn't used without due consideration, so I understand that it may feel that behaviours get overlooked. So, no, I don't expect a higher standard in DS areas, but as Katie points out, there has been lower standards in the area in the past and so the area may need to be brought in line with the rest of the encyclopedia. WormTT(talk) 11:48, 18 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]