Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language - Wikipedia

According to a Wikipedia article, charcuterie is a branch of French cuisine devoted to prepared meat products, such as bacon, ham, sausage, etc. According to another Wikipedia article, lunch meats are precooked or cured meats that are sliced and served cold or hot.

Question: is there a term in English for precooked or cured meats, such as bacon, ham, sausage, etc., in general, regardless of whether they are sliced or made in France? — Kpalion^(talk) 13:44, 23 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Kpalion: In a fine example of how the English language is unafraid of adopting words from others, it's charcuterie. Bazza 7 (talk) 14:16, 23 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Does it mean that the Charcuterie article is wrong in restricting the term to French cuisine only? — Kpalion^(talk) 14:58, 23 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

It doesn't restrict it; it just doesn't mention it has been incorporated into omnivorous English, whose appetite for foreign words is insatiable. Clarityfiend (talk) 22:31, 23 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Interesting — I didn't realize anyone restricted it to just meats. What I tend to think of as a "charcuterie board", often served at outdoor events, has mostly cheeses (a selection of fresh, semi-soft, and sometimes a few aged), dried and fresh fruit, nuts, jams, honeys, and crackers, with maybe just a few little sausagey meaty things. Often taken with little flutes of sparkling wine. Is there a more specific name for this sort? --Trovatore (talk) 23:28, 23 September 2024 (UTC) Reply

Well, etymologically, char cuit is just Old French for cooked meat. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 01:30, 24 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

That sounds closer to a cheeseboard to me. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 09:18, 24 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Let me put the question differently: would you use the word "charcuterie" (in English) to describe what you see in this picture? — Kpalion^(talk) 08:11, 24 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

I might worry briefly about it being a misnomer on my part, but I would. Remsense ‥ 论 08:13, 24 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Kpalion: It's a good word for that picture, although I can't recall it being used in conversation (in English English). Bazza 7 (talk) 08:50, 24 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Are there any alternatives then? — Kpalion^(talk) 09:35, 24 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Charcuterie is used in conversational English, but can appear affected. OED gives citations back to 1858. The native terms would be cold cuts or cold meats. DuncanHill (talk) 10:07, 24 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

I would expect "charcuterie" to be used to describe those meats after they had been cut into small portions, and only in the term "charcuterie board" describing a bunch of them along with cheeses and crackers. As is, I would just call them precooked or cured meats. Or DuncanHill's suggestion of cold meats, "cold cuts" would describe them after they had been cut into slices. I definitely find "charcuterie" to be an affected usage for what trays of what appears to be nothing more than a fancy version of Lunchables. --User:Khajidha (talk) (contributions) 13:19, 24 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

I like "cured meats" best, as it doesn't imply slicing, serving temperature or country of origin. But is it widespread enough to be commonly understood by native speakers of any variety of English? Lunch meat lists several alternative names, but "cured meats" is not one of them. — Kpalion^(talk) 13:35, 24 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Kpalion: I think you will struggle to get something which covers all varieties of English. "Lunch meat" is not used in my own English English and may be confused (especially by people of a certain age) with "luncheon meat" (which is not the generic item the luncheon meat article suggests]]).

I agree with your comment about "cured meats". I don't know how widespread the technical term "cured" is; my own experience it that in everyday speech the curing method is more likely to be referred to (e.g. smoked, salted, pickled, etc.). Bazza 7 (talk) 13:51, 24 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

This page (in Emgland) seems to use "chacuterie" and "cured meats" as synonyms. I believe both terms would be widely understood here. Alansplodge (talk) 14:00, 24 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Where does the AMerican term "cold cuts" fit in here? HiLo48 (talk) 00:42, 25 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

I mentioned "cold cuts" above. The OED defines charcuterie as "Cold cuts of meat, esp. pork, ham, sausages, etc. Also, a shop that sells goods of this kind". DuncanHill (talk) 01:31, 25 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

And I'm looking for something more generic, yet still recognizable. A term that would cover both cold cuts and a whole grilled sausage (uncut and served hot). So far, "cured meats" seems like the best fit, but would it be understood in America? — Kpalion^(talk) 09:07, 25 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

If it's served hot is it even charcuterie? DuncanHill (talk) 11:09, 25 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Well, is it? And if it's not, then what is it? Say, you can buy a link of smoked sausage and then you can either slice it up and serve cold or grill it and serve hot and uncut. Does it only become charcuterie in the first case, at the moment of serving, but not in the other case? Does the term "charcuterie" not apply before serving? — Kpalion^(talk) 11:54, 25 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

@Kpalion: As I hinted above, your quest may be difficult to fulfil. The assumption that there must be a single word is mistaken. It would help if you gave an indication about when or where such a word is needed.

@Alansplodge gave a link above to a specialist retailer which sells "charcuterie". A large supermarket chain, on the other hand, refers to those products as cooked and continental meats; another, more upmarket, uses the same ans adds deli for good measure.

At a personal level, on the other hand, if I buy some smoked sausage from my supermarket's deli counter, slice it and serve it cold, I'd call it "smoked sausage". If I have it whole and hot, then I'd call it "smoked sausage". If I needed to differentiate between the two, I might add "cold" or "hot". The same might apply to bacon, or pork loin, or pastrami, etc. Bazza 7 (talk) 12:21, 25 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

You said you'd buy your (whole) sausage at a deli counter. So perhaps "deli" is the word I'm looking for? Is it an exact synonym of "charcuterie" or "cured meats", or is there some difference in its scope? — Kpalion^(talk) 12:39, 25 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

See delicatessen. 2A02:C7B:120:C500:65D0:46B7:4AB7:C9BB (talk) 14:25, 25 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

That seems fairly close, but you'd need to specify deli meats, since typical deli counters and delicatessens also contain other sorts of foods (cheeses, prepared side dishes such as potato salad and slaw, etc.). Deor (talk) 14:29, 25 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Although we have delicatessens in Britain, the phrase "deli meats" sounds distinctly American to me, so it depends on the variety of English required. Alansplodge (talk) 08:40, 27 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Thank you all for your input. — Kpalion^(talk) 08:31, 3 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Wiktionary says this is from a meaning of curly-haired. But a fitting conception of goatishness could have led to a direct borrowing from Latin capra / caprinus at any time. Surely cultural conceptions of goats have more influence on the language than some narrow hair stereotype? Temerarius (talk) 02:52, 24 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

That's one theory. Here's EO's take on it:[1][2] ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:59, 24 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

One's hair curling from fear, an etymological theory mentioned in Pianigiani's Vocabolario Etimologico della Lingua Italiana,^[3] is not a stereotype. Yet another theory mentioned there relates the term to the Latin verb caperāre, "to wrinkle".  --Lambiam 12:03, 24 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Imagine you'd never heard "capricious" before, and you hear it now. First guess would be "goatish," right? That'd be the case for everyone, everywhere, except that little slice of Italian history.

Temerarius (talk) 02:10, 27 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Or you might think of the Isle of Capri, which may have the same etymology anyway. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:25, 27 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Or someone might think of a Capricorn, said to be pragmatic, organized, risk-averse and afraid of failure.^[4]  --Lambiam 08:24, 27 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

"Capricious" is from "caprice," which derives from French "caprice," which derives from Italian "capriccio," a sudden start or motion or a sudden shiver of horror. The derivation of "capriccio" is disputed. The OED says it is "apparently < capro goat, as if 'the skip or frisk of a goat.'" However, Merriam-Webster says it "likely comes from the Italian capo, meaning “head,” and riccio, the word for “hedgehog.” The implication was that someone who shuddered in fear or horror was said to have a “hedgehog head,” meaning that the person’s hair stood on end like the spines of a hedgehog. The link between a whim and a shiver of horror is notably tenuous, though, and a possible link to Italian capra, meaning “goat,” has also been suggested, given the whimsy goats seem to employ in their gamboling." John M Baker (talk) 17:14, 27 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

And there was me thinking that it referred to the impulsive, changeable and/or perverse behaviour of residents of Capri. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.105} 94.6.86.81 (talk) 13:43, 29 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

This is an excerpt from my version of Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix (I have the audiobook read by Stephen Fry): "... as though this was the signal Harry had been waiting for, he jumped to his feet, at the same time pulling from the waist-band of his jeans a thin wooden wand as if he were unsheathing a sword."

Is there a reason why 'was' is used in the first bolded bit and 'were' in the second bolded bit? Would this be considered an error of style? 150.203.2.213 (talk) 06:13, 25 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Here's an extensive discussion on was vs. were.[5] However, from reading it, I'm not sure what the answer to your question is. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:10, 25 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

I guess that the signal could be considered actual, and the sword fictional, if I am to hazard a guess. For what it's worth. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 11:01, 25 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Ohh okay, I can see how that might motivate the difference. Thank you! 150.203.2.213 (talk) 12:04, 25 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Some stylists recommend not repeating a formula in close proximity, except when done to achieve a rhetorical effect.  --Lambiam 13:18, 25 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Sure, but this case is akin to using "He and I did ..." in one place, and "Me and him did ..." in another. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 17:48, 26 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Not really. The subjunctive is dying out, and it's not reasonable to call every instance of "if I was..." an error. --Viennese Waltz 18:01, 26 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

It might still feel a bit off to use the subjunctive seemingly randomly. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 19:05, 26 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

The issue that bothered the OP may be the intermingled use of was and were. Had the quoted fragment started with "... as though this were the signal ...", I surmise it would not have engendered the raising of even a single bushy brow.  --Lambiam 08:13, 27 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Japanese clip Zarnivop (talk) 18:06, 29 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

What's the context? Anime? J-Drama? My Japanese isn't good enough to catch more than snippets, but it sounds rather theatrical. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 18:58, 29 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

It's smoething a soldier says after he scored a kill, taken from a voice pack of a mod. Zarnivop (talk) 19:32, 29 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

I hear kujikenu kokoro ga asu no shōri ni tsunagaru no, or 「くじけぬ心が明日の勝利につながるの」 (with asu being a short form of ashita, 明日). GalacticShoe (talk) 19:21, 29 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

From a quick online search, I'm presuming this is from Soulcalibur V. There's a wiki page which apparently has this and other voice lines, if you need to reference them. GalacticShoe (talk) 19:33, 29 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

So "A resilient spirit will lead to victory tomorrow"? (Google translate) Zarnivop (talk) 19:33, 29 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Something along those lines, yup. GalacticShoe (talk) 19:36, 29 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

A profusion of thanks! Zarnivop (talk) 21:41, 29 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

According to our article on Aomori, the original name of this Japanese city was 善知鳥村 Utō-mura. Now, how to you get that pronunciation from those kanji? If I'm not mistaken the last character 村 should be -mura (village). But the rest? Thank you! 95.238.49.112 (talk) 14:56, 30 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

By morpho-ambulating helplessly through jawiki, it seems it corresponds to an old form of ja:ウトウ, the name for the Rhinoceros auklet, who I deem a cute little guy. Apparently, that's ultimately a loanword from Ainu, neat! Remsense ‥ 论 15:10, 30 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

I suspect it is a nanori. ColinFine (talk) 17:34, 1 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

In 1950s England, was this phrase:

• Equivalent to "settle down", or
• In its French translation, one of the few phrases known to a beginner, for some reason?

I ask because I'm curious about the phrase as it appears at the foot of this page in one of the Nigel Molesworth books.  Card Zero  (talk) 17:52, 30 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

"Turn it up!" means "stop it", "settle down", "lay off", etc. The French looks like Molesworth's attempt. DuncanHill (talk) 18:31, 30 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Oh, so it really does mean that. Interesting in the light of wikt:turn up sense #6 (and the song Turn down for what, which by all reports intended that sense). I see Molesworth's sense of "turn up" is missing from Wiktionary, although the nautical sense 5 (fasten lines down) might be related?  Card Zero  (talk) 19:18, 30 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

"turn it up", not "turn up". OED has "transitive. slang (chiefly British). To give up, abandon (an activity). Formerly also intransitive: †to throw up or abandon one's work, to give up (obsolete). Now only in imperative as turn it up: used as a warning to desist, esp. from objectionable talk; ‘shut up’, ‘come off it’. DuncanHill (talk) 19:45, 30 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Seems counterintuitive. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:10, 30 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

An idiom (which this is), by definition does not mean what it would if read literally, and has to be learned from its cultural context and use. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.86.81 (talk) 21:35, 30 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

I just wonder where it came from. Typically, "turn it up" would mean to increase something, not decrease it. A more fitting expression would seem to be "dial it down" or "dial it back". English is weird. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:15, 30 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

The usage is cited back to 1819, rather earlier than your dials. A related usage is "transitive. To give up, renounce, abandon, cast off, discard (an associate). Now rare (slang in later use)" which goes back to 1541. DuncanHill (talk) 22:34, 30 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Yes. My question is why? What is "it" that's being "turned up"? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:59, 30 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

The "it" is whatever activity the speaker wishes to be ceased. Perhaps it originates from a once familiar activity where 'turning up' was a thing: one possibility that occurs to me is that on a sailing vessel with fore-and-aft rig (like most yachts), one can come to a standstill by turning the bows up to point directly into the wind. (This application of 'up' is still in use, as anyone following the current activities in Barcelona will know.)

I believe there is a technical term for such indeterminate 'its', which I've forgotten. Another example: when we say "It's raining", what exactly is "it"? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.86.81 (talk) 01:47, 1 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Maybe you're trying to remember "dummy pronoun"? --Antiquary (talk) 08:38, 1 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Looks like a merger of "turn in" and "give it up", if I am to guess. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 23:23, 1 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

We may never know. Idiomatic phrases arise amongst us hoi polloi, who have no reason to record definitions of them in writing. By the time the lexicographical elite notice them, nobody may remember their actual origin. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 94.6.86.81 (talk) 14:01, 2 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Etymonline has "turn up" as attested from c. 1400 (originally "dig up, uproot"), which kind of fits. But then, the nautical meaning of "tie it down" also kind of fits, as does the other nautical meaning of "stop your yacht".  Card Zero  (talk) 17:42, 2 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

My name is Adam. Your name is Bert.

My name is Adam. Yours is Bert.

My name's initial is "A". Your name's initial is "B".

My name's initial is "A". Your name's is "B".

My name's initial is "A". Yours' initial is "B".

My name's initial is "A". Yours' is "B".

Are the last two lines ungrammatical or just unusual, would you say? For the sake of argument, assume that the distinction between "your name's initial" and "your initial" signifies, so that simply dropping the possessive apostrophe from the last line may (or may not) subtly change the sense.

- 2A02:560:4D27:B100:ED8D:9D51:1B0C:D4CB (talk) 16:00, 3 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

It's ungrammatical. In a situation where there's a meaningful difference between ownership being yours and being your name's, you'd need to spend additional words to be clear. As far as I'm aware we don't have second-order possessive pronouns in formal English, like "mine's" or "his'" which would describe possession by a party that itself belongs to another party. Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 16:28, 3 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

I think it's pretty safe to say that "yours'(s)" doesn't exist in any form of quasi-standard English... AnonMoos (talk) 19:52, 3 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

That's your'n opinion. Clarityfiend (talk) 22:47, 5 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Or y'all's. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:21, 6 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

These elements were all named after Ytterby village. Questions:

1. Which element was named first??
2. How were the element names able to deviate (independent of the statement that each element needs its own name)??
3. How was it decided which element got which name??

Georgia guy (talk) 00:38, 6 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Looking up Svenska Akademien's dictionaries, yttrium is from 1818-1820, terbium from 1843-1844, and erbium and ytterbium from 1881-1888. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 00:58, 6 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Good afternoon, hopeful for some assistance on this. An editor has requested translation on a couple of parts of the above article, and I'm having trouble with making sense of it, and I don't know where the original text came from to find context, I'm hoping you can help. The text is:

• In 1541 his address was "In Sint Jacob, naest die Gulden panne, op die pleijne van de Iseren waghe"

Which I believe to mean "In Saint Jacob, next to the Golden Roof, on the square of the Iseren wagon" (or possibly Iseren Weighing house if we say it should be waegh instead of waghe) except as best I can tell, Saint Jacob was/is a church, and the rest doesn't really fit. The second section is:

• In 1543 he was buyten die Camerpoorte in den Gulden Eenhoren

Or, "outside the Camerpoorte in the Golden Unicorn", I can find that The Golden Unicorn house was a property at the time, but can find nothing on "Camerpoorte", closest I can find is this which mentions the Golden Unicorn was in the "Kammenstraat", the printers quarter, so perhaps Camerpoorte is an error? Thank you for your help--Jac16888 ^Talk 15:45, 6 October 2024 (UTC) --Jac16888 ^Talk 15:45, 6 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

It's Old Dutch, so the orthography differs. I guess Iseren waghe could be "Iron waves" which is befitting a golden church roof. Camerpoorte is probably akin to kamerpoort, chamber gate. My Dutch isn't that great, but hopefully it could be a start. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 16:22, 6 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

I guess panne could be pan, other than roof, as well. 惑乱 Wakuran (talk) 16:24, 6 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

The addresses are discussed in this text. Isere waghe is translated into French as Poids de fer, i.e. "iron weight". Cammer is translated as brasseur, i.e. "beer brewer". The Camerpoorte sounds like the name of a city gate, and the Golden Unicorn would have been outside. There is a nl:Kammenstraat, and a pension (one star on Tripadvisor, got to be good) by the name of "Camerpoorte" in nearby Nationaalstraat. In Sint Jacob would mean "in the parish of Sint Jacob" (if that wasn't clear), so in today's Universiteitsbuurt. --Wrongfilter (talk) 17:16, 6 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Oh, walking around on Google maps, I find an alley by the name of Izerenwaag, just off Kammenstraat, but at some distance from Sint Jacob.--Wrongfilter (talk) 17:23, 6 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

Middle Dutch iseren means "(of) iron", waghe can mean "wave", but also, more likely here, "weighing scales" as well as a building where goods are officially weighed, which typically would be located on a square. While cammer means "brewer", the expected form of a compound meaning "brewer's gate" is cammerspoorte. Camer may be a clipped form of camere, which means "vault", "chamber", so the Camerpoort may have been a vaulted city gate, but also a gatehouse serving some guild or guild-like society, such as a chamber of rhetoric.  --Lambiam 12:59, 7 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

"Gulden panne" means Golden pan (as in the thing you use for cooking). I suppose that's the name of an inn or something like that. PiusImpavidus (talk) 17:20, 6 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

"We began by varying the radius of the coil while holding fixed the velocity of the magnet and the number of turns in coil."

This sounds odd to me. My intuition is that the sentence should read "We began by varying the radius of the coil while holding fixed the number of turns in coil and the velocity of the magnet", so that the two items about the coil are put together. Is this a standard intuition? Is this aimless pedantry? 150.203.2.201 (talk) 04:29, 7 October 2024 (UTC)Reply

If the velocity is a more relevant variable than the number of terms, to the paper and to the reader, than it's appropriate in prose to say the more relevant term prose (but that's not a fixed rule of course). Velocity is more relevant if the subject of the paper is presumably something like Lorentz force and not ordinary magnetic induction. SamuelRiv (talk) 04:46, 7 October 2024 (UTC)Reply