Template talk:Infobox album/Archive 12 - Wikipedia

Would there be any way to alter instances of substituting the template/updating that already used on articles to not include the parameter "venue" if the infobox is already set to "studio" or "album"? The template's documentation states, in bold, that the "venue" parameter is explicitly for live albums, and realistically there are few exceptions for studio albums being recorded in venues or live settings. Most of the time this parameter is not filled in anyway and left blank, or removed in cleanup sessions by other editors. I've noticed that it's automatically placed when users substitute the template when in most cases it's not needed. Ss112 05:58, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

Looking at Module:Unsubst-infobox I don't really see any way to do this. Having the blank parameter on the page has no negative effect. I don't see anything wrong with it... One thing we could easily do is add a tracking category. So any page that had a venue set AND was not a live album would be placed in the category. That would certainly make sense. But I don't see any reason to rebuild a Module to work around this one use case, unless someone can see a way I can't. --Zackmann (^{Talk to me}/_{What I been doing}) 06:05, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

The best option would be to see if @Zackmann08: could address this with the updates the editor is making. Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:37, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

@Walter Görlitz: all I am doing is substituting the template... {{subst:Infobox album..... That doesn't have the ability to conditionally replace that parameter. --Zackmann (^{Talk to me}/_{What I been doing}) 07:00, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

If it is valuable to remove the |venue= parameter, one could submit a bot request. There are plenty of template transclusions with empty parameters that do no harm, however, and this seems like one to me. – Jonesey95 (talk) 09:51, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

Does it seem wise to anybody else that we're advocating that users list each producer on a new line in the infobox when, especially for modern pop and hip hop albums, there are usually at least a dozen separate producers? This can turn out to be a long list and a mile to scroll through before the actual prose starts and it seems excessive. Horizontally listing them with the actual defined hlist template (not just utilising the default hlist capabilities of the infobox) inside visually takes up less space in the source editing. I wouldn't think using an hlist in cases where there are a tonne of producers to list would be a hindrance to screen readers for accessibility concerns either, otherwise, why does hlist exist as a template if it's an accessibility obstacle? (No need to ping me, I'll be watching the talk page.) Ss112 05:50, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

For recorded (which used to include studio and venue), studio, genre, label and producer we have a note (For multiple entries, see Notes[2] for details). That note used to state that we could use either flatlist or hlist, but that seems to have been changed. The template parameters table has not kept pace and should be updated. Do you have any suggested improvement to the documentation? Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:15, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

I'd suggest we could re-add the part about using hlist if there's a lot of names or items to list in the infobox. Ss112 15:14, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Since both list templates work in the parameter, it might make sense. However, space isn't really an issue and vertical is often more clear than horizontal when a large number of items is present. I wouldn't be opposed to restoring the copy to the note though. Walter Görlitz (talk) 15:32, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

@X201: what happened? The category was empty for albums. What did I miss? --Zackmann (^{Talk to me}/_{What I been doing}) 18:58, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

@X201: HAHA!!! I just noticed that you reverted your revert. :-p I was worried because I checked and rechecked my work before making that change... Please do look over the change I made though? Always great to have a 2nd set of eyes. :-) --Zackmann (^{Talk to me}/_{What I been doing}) 19:12, 13 November 2018 (UTC)

@Zackmann08:, Yes, sorry about that. I'd got multiple diffs open on an article with a module string error and lost my marbles for a second. Sorry. I'm currently clearing Category:Music infoboxes with Module:String errors, will also clear the User and Draft articles that are cluttering it up. - X201 (talk) 08:54, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

@X201: no problem at all! Just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something. Keep up the great work. --Zackmann (^{Talk to me}/_{What I been doing}) 17:15, 14 November 2018 (UTC)

I'm frequently frustrated by the lack of link to the artist's complete discography (page ifexist or artist page section ifexist) (issue: multiple artists) and briefly searched the talk archives to find I'm not alone in a desire to add one (or as many as are needed with regard to issue). Let's talk :) Fred Gandt · talk · contribs 07:55, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

You are suggesting that the infobox would include a link to an artist's discography? ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 08:00, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

Yes I am. Fred Gandt · talk · contribs 14:55, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

@Fred Gandt: And do you have any notion of how it would be displayed? ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 21:47, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

Not in particular Justin; since it would be a trivial addition with a non trivial effect (change == scary), I figured a discussion about the possibility before getting entrenched in aesthetic preferences seemed prudent. But to kick things off; I suppose a relatively plain link just above the "chronology" section, or at least around there somewhere. What do you think? Fred Gandt · talk · contribs 22:23, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

@Tango303 and Walter Görlitz: As you've previously expressed support... Fred Gandt · talk · contribs 22:27, 1 December 2018 (UTC)

I don't recall being in favour of a link to a discography article in the infobox, but I'm not opposed. How would it benefit (or distract) a reader? Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:11, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

A couple of years ago in this archived discussion (linked above) Walter :) Fred Gandt · talk · contribs 02:40, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

1. "How would it benefit...?" By providing the missing link when offered to easily peruse the chronology while stingily requiring one to find one's own method of finding the discography; convenience.
2. "How would it distract...?" I personally can't envisage it distracting anyone. Fred Gandt · talk · contribs 02:49, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

Please see this rather lengthy discussion: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Albums#"Single Album", in which a bunch of knowledgeable editors in the Albums Project reached a consensus on the need for a new TYPE called "Single Album" in the Album Infobox. (The term is unique to the Asian music industry and is becoming very common.) Please advise on the next steps. Thanks. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (Talk|Contribs) 15:11, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Safest bet is if the new type is called single_album or singlealbum. There's already a single option in the color and link templates and using single with a space could open up a can of worms. - X201 (talk) 16:22, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

That looks good to me. I do not have authorization to edit a template so we simply need an appropriate person to go forth. I forgot to mention above that this new type can be parallel to the existing "EP" type in terms of the color, as decided in the discussion. Thanks. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (Talk|Contribs) 16:35, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Anyone can edit the template's sandbox (copy the main template code over to the sandbox first) and the testcases page to show how this new feature would work. Ping me or put an edit request template here if you need help, or if you need someone to look at the changes and implement them. – Jonesey95 (talk) 17:40, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Pinging Galobtter, who has some unpromoted changes in the sandbox. Do you want to move those over to the main template before this new experiment? – Jonesey95 (talk) 17:42, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Jonesey95, The unpromoted changes can easily be reintegrated back, so feel free to reset the sandbox or whatever else needs to be done. Galobtter (pingó mió) 17:55, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Jonesey95 - The procedures at the sandbox and test cases page are beyond my area of expertise and I don't want to mess things up. Please consider taking the initial steps yourself if you have time (adding a new TYPE called "Single Album" with the proper coding and the same color as the existing "EP"). I will keep an eye on things and provide comments. Thank you for your assistance. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (Talk|Contribs) 17:59, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Well played, doomsdayer520. This little template has a LOT of moving parts. I think I found, updated, and documented all of them. Please try it out and let me know if I missed anything. – Jonesey95 (talk) 18:41, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

Jonesey95 - Well played because I have no idea what you did or where you did it. Thanks for taking the time to implement the change. Per your comment over at the original Project discussion, you are correct about the link to Single (music) which is not quite an accurate place to send the term "Single Album". We decided to write a new article on the term "Single Album" as used in Korea, or at least a new section in an existing article somewhere else. When that happens I will take the lead back here on adjusting the link. Thanks again! ---DOOMSDAYER520 (Talk|Contribs) 20:20, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

We shouldn't need to adjust any links in any templates. Just drop your elegantly written, reliably sourced, mind-blowing new article content, complete with categories and arrows on the back of each one, into single album, replacing the redirect that is there now. – Jonesey95 (talk) 05:36, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Just wanted to point out that I have started converting articles on these Korean releases that were previously mis-characterized as EPs and whatnot. The new "Single Album" type in the infobox appears to be working properly. Thanks all! ---DOOMSDAYER520 (Talk|Contribs) 16:14, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Continuing from Template talk:Infobox album/Archive 11#Short description (ping Fram), I'm proposing adding an automatically generated short description to this infobox, having fixed the issue of secondary infoboxes by creating and using a module, Module:Is infobox in lead, to check if the infobox album is the lead infobox. (this is to avoid, say, having the short description "Soundtrack album by Clint Mansell" added to Pi (film)). The code is in the sandbox.

The short description is exactly the same as header1 of the infobox, i.e, "Greatest hits album by Nirvana" for Nirvana (Nirvana album), "Studio album by Simon & Garfunkel" for Wednesday Morning, 3 A.M., and so on; these descriptions are generally as good or better than the currently displayed wikidata descriptions (which are often just "album"). If that would improve the description, I can add the release date, too, for say "1964 studio album by Simon & Garfunkel". Galobtter (pingó mió) 08:03, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

• I like it and support it. I'd also support the year addition. I'd personally would like it if a module did the work as usually there are a few more if checks to make sure that the description doesn't seem strange with missing parameters (and having all that in the template just clutters it up for no reason and is harder to debug). If you need help with testing, let me know. --Gonnym (talk) 08:34, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

  Gonnym, I've added the year, I'll see about a module: another thing, would you think that "studio album" should be shortened to "album" in the short description? I don't know nothing about music which is why I'm wondering if you think that is reasonable. Galobtter (pingó mió) 08:51, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

  Not my expertise as well so cannot help there, sorry. --Gonnym (talk) 08:53, 20 January 2019 (UTC)

This is great. Definitely have the year in there. I think "album" over "studio album" works. Also, I noticed an article (I can't remember what one) before I saw this post that had two infoboxes and two short descriptions. There shouldn't be too many articles that have multiple infoboxes but would that happen with this automated feature? Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars^{Talk to me} 16:59, 25 January 2019 (UTC)

A short description is only generated if an infobox album is in the lead section and is the only infobox in the lead, so I don't think that should be an issue. Galobtter (pingó mió) 13:46, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

That doesn't appear to be the case with Hopes and Fears, where a second infobox further down the page is overwriting the short description from the first one. -- I need a name (talk) 11:25, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

I need a name, thanks,   Fixed, doesn't display description in those cases. Galobtter (pingó mió) 12:01, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Thanks, although that means it's now defaulting to the Wikidata description. Would it be possible to add a field like |short_desc= to the template for manually adding the description or would it be better to just use {{Short description}} in such cases? -- I need a name (talk) 12:15, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

  Done Galobtter (pingó mió) 10:04, 25 February 2019 (UTC)

@Galobtter: Question. The description is created through the infobox without anyone seeing or knowing that it exists when in edit mode, correct? So if someone trying to be helpful adds {{short description}} to the page, will that override the default automated description? Also, since those adding it are creating unnecessary work for themselves, is there a way to find out which album pages with infoboxes have a short description that was added manually as well? Thanks. Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars^{Talk to me} 02:36, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars, Well, a manual description should override the automated description, except I messed up and it actually doesn't; I'll see about fixing that, since although many of the manual descriptions are of lower quality than the automated ones, it still should be possible to easily override the automated description.

Do a search for insource:"short description" hastemplate:"Infobox album" insource:/short description[^=]*infobox album/i - about 2000 album pages have a manual short description. Most I see were added using User:Galobtter/Shortdesc helper in which case they will see the automatically generated description though (now that it is there). Galobtter (pingó mió) 05:48, 7 March 2019 (UTC)

Regarding the extra chronology, the release Live at the Paramount (video) was released first as a DVD/Blu-ray video in 2011 and the audio album on vinyl was not released until 2019. If it had been the other way round it would have been a simple case of denoting the extra chronology as type: video. However, this appears to be a rare case where the video has been released first. As such both chronologies are not differentiated in the output. I have added "video" and "album" to the titles to differentiate for now, but can this issue be addressed ? QuintusPetillius (talk) 20:16, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

I think type should equal live. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 22:00, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

Yes, I have done that already, but the point I am getting at is there is nothing to differentiate between the two chronologies. Neither says "video chronology" or "album chronology".QuintusPetillius (talk) 17:03, 17 April 2019 (UTC)

Shouldn't there be a section to indicate format -- CD, cassette, vinyl, download etc.? Sheila1988 (talk) 11:40, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

I can see that being mildly useful if the subject album was only released on specific formats, but since most are released on multiple formats,^[CN] this could get old fast. If excluded or empty, would the output of |format= (working title) be omitted or populated with a coverall? I assume you imagine the data will be linked to the most suitable respective article about the format? I can't see the need for a convenience link to the various formats, especially if not all are listed on each article. It can be argued that the noteworthiness of the format upon which an album (single, movie etc. for that matter) is rarely of any interest beyond the technical, and could be considered trivial. Where the information is notably non-trivial (perhaps only released as a download because the band and label were in dispute or similar), I'm sure it would be better covered in the article body. Fred Gandt · talk · contribs 12:02, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

I see {{Infobox song}} has a |format= parameter. I wonder if this has been discussed before? Fred Gandt · talk · contribs 20:26, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Yes it has; see Template talk:Infobox album/Archive 9#Proposed addition of a "format" parameter closed as "no consensus" 2014. Fred Gandt · talk · contribs 20:29, 1 July 2019 (UTC)