Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/Archive 60 - Wikipedia
2 people in discussion
| Archive 55 | ← | Archive 58 | Archive 59 | Archive 60 | Archive 61 | Archive 62 | → | Archive 65 |
– Closed as failed. See comments for reasoning.
| Other editors have gone stale and have not responded to pokes to respond to this thread. Thehoboclown's position is treated as uncontested consensus for the time being. Hasteur (talk) 14:58, 18 January 2013 (UTC) |
| Closed discussion |
|---|
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview I've created a category titled Category:Hungarian communities in Vojvodina and added to the related articles. Many of them, however, were soon removed, and replaced by a number of badly named, new categories created by Account2013 (talk · contribs). As pointed out on the category's talk page, it was a hasty move and eventually these categories were deleted. I've also requested comments from experienced users, who suggested a new, probably more proper name for the category, however, this was rejected by Account2013, which led to a hiatus, as now some of the articles are in the category while other ones (from where the badly named categories were removed) are not. Being stucked at this point, I was bold and listified these settlements and added to the articles given in the list, however, just after a short while these were also removed. There have been a discussion, which came to a conclusion that the other user, after dismissed a proposed category name change, now also want to remove the above given list from a number of articles as well, which appears to be a whitewashing for me. Since every attempt to find a solution was stucked at a point, I came to this place to get the issue resolved. Have you tried to resolve this previously? Brought to ANI, but it ended up nowhere. How do you think we can help? Declare whether adding the settlement list to the articles given in the list is appropriate. Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. Novi Sad, Novi Kneževac, Srbobran, Temerin discussionPlease do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.
{{----
|
– Closed as failed. See comments for reasoning.
| The request for insertion of specific information by the user that opened the dispute case has been declined by the other two involved editors, on the basis that it represents undue weight and is unnecessary given the nature of the information itself and the content of the articles in question. I will note that there is agreement that the information belongs in the articles, so the basic disagreement is how to include it. I believe that this dispute has run its course, and should be taken to the next level of mediation if Elvenscout742 (talk · contribs) considers this would be merited. Participation from members of the Wikipedia Films project would be highly recommended, so as to establish a consensus-based guideline as to how this type of information should be incorporated into current and future film articles, which would ideally be included in the appropriate MOS. I thank all three editors for having participated in this discussion, and I take the opportunity to remind them of WP:3RR and our civility guidelines. §FreeRangeFrogcroak 23:13, 18 January 2013 (UTC) |
| Closed discussion |
|---|
Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview A number of Japanese films have different titles applied by separate American and British home media distributors. Several of these films are primarily known by their original Japanese titles in the UK and Ireland, but the article titles are the American names. I have tried numerous times to add the official titles used by the licensed distributors in the UK and Ireland to the intros of the articles. I have, however, been repeatedly reverted by a couple of users who seem to believe that the American titles of Japanese films are more official or important than the UK ones. This is consistent with Wikipedia:NCF#Foreign-language films, which specifies that we should include variant titles of non-English language films, especially where a "variant" is the common title in an English-speaking country. If articles on American films such as The Avengers (2012 film) give the UK title in the opening sentence, I don't see why the UK title should not be mentioned at all in the articles on films that aren't even American. I have tried to discuss this problem extensively on two of the relevant talk pages (Talk:Sansho the Bailiff and Talk:Ugetsu), but have met with little more than dismissive comments, and the most recent batch of reversions include somewhat offensive language[1][2][3][4][5][6] I find the use of the word "orientalist" particularly offensive, and I am getting tired of trying to discuss this on talk pages with no outside input. Can someone help? Have you tried to resolve this previously? I have tried extensively to discuss this on two of the three article talk pages, drawing attention both to evidence[7][8][9] and policy[10]. How do you think we can help? Provide objective input on whether the titles used by the officially licensed distributors in the UK and Ireland should be mentioned in the articles' intros. In all three cases, the alternative titles are already in the lead section of the article, immediately after the article's title and the name of the film in Japanese text. Per MOS:FILM, details on DVD releases of the films would be more appropriate under the "release/home media" subsection of the article. JoshuSasori (talk) 03:34, 17 January 2013 (UTC) Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. First off, it's good dispute resolution has been opened, and I was planning on opening one myself tomorrow morning. It is certainly true the debate has gotten heated, and that I myself am partially responsible. But elvenscout has been uncivil himself and his complaints seem hypocritical and disingenuous. Here he is reverting my edits for accuracy as "bad faith" [11][12], here he is expressing contempt for consensus, which is one of the WP:5P- [13], here he is calling a legitimate question "moaning" [14], here he is with argumentative nitpicking over trivial matters [15] and an (unintentional) false accusation of name-calling [16]. I feel home release information can go into the home release section, and that it's not as important as the theatrical release, and besides, the full Japanese title is in the first sentences of both Ugetsu and Sansho the Bailiff. That said, when I attempted to compromise, I was reverted and told elvenscout was reversing the burden of proof- I would have to find a source refuting his claim. [17]. Ribbet32 (talk) 04:18, 17 January 2013 (UTC) Ugetsu, Sansho the Bailiff, Taboo (1999 film) discussionPlease do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.
Comment Barring an initial statement from the other involved editor, at this point this is what I see:
I will note that WP:MOSFILM does not cover this situation, but as it is only a guideline of style, it does not necessarily apply here. WP:NCF states:
However, the sources quoted by Elvenscout742 cite only home media releases, not theater-wide releases, to which the spirit of the guideline refers, which means that he has not proved that the films were known that way primarily in the UK, and as no additional sources have been presented, the application of the NCF guideline above would be incorrect. Further, it is not necessary to include the alternate name of the film in only two countries, via home media release, in the introduction of the article, as it is essentially a minor detail compared to the rest of the article. Response to Ribbet32: I must apologize for being uncivil throughout this dispute. You were unfortunate to wander in in the middle of a long dispute between JoshuSasori and myself. He has been reverting or otherwise altering almost all my edits to about a dozen articles on Japanese cinema over the past month or so, and I have been getting increasingly frustrated with it. This is why I call his reversions "bad faith" -- he has been constantly reverting all of my edits, good, questionable and bad alike, and seldom providing reasons. But I was wrong to include you in that, and I apologize. elvenscout742 (talk) 04:30, 17 January 2013 (UTC) Proposed resolution:
I will also note that Elvenscout742 is free to create redirects, if he so wishes, with the supported alternate titles at any time, and point them to the corresponding articles. is this agreeable to all parties? Please comment below this line. Thanks. §FreeRangeFrogcroak 04:05, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
Section breakRequest @elvenscout742, please stop trying to add the disputed information to the article(s) while we are in the middle of a content dispute. That would help. Second, can you use the space below this line to spell out, in detail, what it is you are proposing in terms of changes to each article? I must admit I am at a point where I'm no longer sure just what it is that you're trying to achieve. Please be as detailed as possible. Thanks. §FreeRangeFrogcroak 00:57, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
|
– General close. See comments for reasoning.
| Closed discussion |
|---|
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview Here's the version from before ether of us edited it. From my point of view, here's what happened: This came to my attention when I found the newly created Coat of arms of the State of Palestine article (I was looking at a list of articles containing "State of Palestine" in their title). I redirected it to the old article it was split, from and started a discussion on the old articles talk page. As you can see from the above version of the old article, it covered both the Palestinian Authority, and State of Palestine (and has done so sense 2011) before ether of us edited it. It however included two paragraphs describing the CoA, which were almost verbatim copies of each other. I removed the second paragraph, and adapted the first paragraph to describe the variation with the Arabic text between the two versions. Greyshark then restored his new article so I sent it to AFD. He then developed his new article. I then updated the old article to reflect newly found sources that showed that the PNA also used the "Palestine" version of the CoA (same version used by the State of Palestine), at least as far back as 2009 [34] [35] (largely by importing some text Greyshark had contributed to his new article). In my opinion, with the new RS, it contradicts RS to state or imply that the "Palestine" version is not used by the PNA. I don't see anything wrong with my edits, I never changed the scope of the old article, I just made it less wordy, and updated it. I don't think that the unilateral recreation of "Coat of arms of the State of Palestine" (which under another title was previously redirected to the old article) narrows the scope of the old article unless there is conciseness to narrow it, and there isn't. I strongly object to Greyshark's attempt to narrow the scope of the article to just the PNA.
Trying, and failing to get Greyshark to discuss on the talk page. How do you think we can help? If I knew how to resolve this I wouldn't be coming here Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. Talk:Coat of arms of the Palestinian National Authority, Talk:Palestinian National Authority discussionPlease do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.
|
– Closed as failed. See comments for reasoning.
| Closed discussion |
|---|
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview In the article about the Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament, BoundaryLayer wants to include a controversial claim that its symbol, the well known peace sign, was used by the Nazis. Following lengthy discussion with BoundaryLayer, I reported the existence of the claim, citing Time magazine and Ken Kolsbun's history of the peace sign. BoundaryLayer says it's not enough to report the controversy, the claim must be included as a fact. A Third Opinion advised that the article should remain neutral about whether the Nazis used the symbol or not. BoundaryLayer ignored that advice and added an edit saying the symbol was similar to "the insignia of the 3rd panzer Division of WWII in usage from 1941 until the end of the war. A number of experts in symbolism have noted that the CND symbol is similar to the Algiz Tudesrune, originally a Nordic runic symbol, but in present day Germany and Austria it is often called the Todesrune, the rune of death, or the inverted life rune." This is tendentious editing. It synthesises sources that don't actually say that the CND symbol is similar to a symbol used by the Nazis. "Experts in symbolism" is also a tendentious phrase. Have you tried to resolve this previously? Third Opinion requested. How do you think we can help? Advise whether or not the article should endorse this claim and whether the controversy is significant enough even to be reported, and, if so, in what terms it should be reported. Hello, I haven't been ignoring the debate, I've simply not logged into Wiki in a few days. The dispute resolves over the fact that another user does, number one, not wish for readers to know what ominious symbol the republican paper was referring to, and number two, and most bizarrely, they do not wish for the opinions of experts in symbolism, nor the opinion of the former head of the CND herself, to be included in the article. Linked below is the edit that was recently removed. None of the references provided are in dispute. I would be glad to discuss with the other user, or collaborate on an edit that they would feel appropriate, however, sadly, this does not appears to be something they wish to do. Boundarylayer (talk) 06:33, 7 January 2013 (UTC) Talk:Campaign for_Nuclear_Disarmament discussionPlease do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary. Boundarylayer seems to be ignoring the discussion (see talk page of article), but I've left a comment on his talk page. ~~Ebe123~~ → report 16:13, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
WP:SYNTH violation? - The primary article for discussing the peace symbol should be (and is) the Peace Sign article. That article already contains a mention of the purported similarity to a Nazi symbol. The article that is the subject of this DRN case is about the CND. The CND article should discuss how the CND participated in creating that symbol, but details about the history of the symbol should only be in the CND article if the sources mention the CND. I'm looking at the quotes from the sources above given by Pelarmian but I don't see a source that mentions both the CND and the Nazis. Connecting two sources together to cause the word "Nazi" to appear in the CND article is a violation of the WP:SYNTH policy. So, my question is: Is there a reliable source that explicitly mentions both the CND and the nazis? Absent that, the Nazi material should be removed from the CND article (but the readers can still learn about it by clicking on the Peace sign link). --Noleander (talk) 16:58, 8 January 2013 (UTC) Inactivity: It's been six days since a DRN volunteer (Noleander (t c)) commented, and there have been no responses to their comment. If this is still an active dispute, please comment so we can get the discussion moving; otherwise, I'll close this discussion after 24 hours. —Darkwind (talk) 01:37, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
Unless of course you wish to argue that she was talking about some other rune, and not the death rune when she said the inner part of the CND symbol takes its origins from a runic symbol for the death of man? As this appears to be waht you are doing. http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=ratVAAAAIBAJ&sjid=EeEDAAAAIBAJ&dq=peace-symbol&pg=3767%2C2358294
|
– General close. See comments for reasoning.
| Lack of editors responding in addition to DIREKTOR being away. Leave currently stable version until all parties are willing to discuss |
| Closed discussion |
|---|
Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview Dispute over template design. Two users support a new template, two users do not support the proposed template. Divided consensus. Frustration and distrust between users has become too high for a collaborative resolution between the four users there for the past few days. Now there are five users there with User:Collect arriving, he/she has not yet decided on what should be used. Have you tried to resolve this previously? I have asked for all users involved to work to write a Request for Comment that would include the template with the flag that I supported, the template proposed by DIREKTOR, and other templates. This proposal was rejected by DIREKTOR. I proposed an alternative template using the overall template DIREKTOR designed, but using an angled swastika rather than the Nazi eagle. I believed the angled swastika alone was simpler in appearance. This proposal was rejected by DIREKTOR. How do you think we can help? Outside intervention to find a means to resolve the dispute. Frustration and distrust between users is too high for a collaborative resolution. Outside assistance will be needed to provide guidance on what can be done to break the divided consensus of 2 in favour of DIREKTOR's proposal and 2 opposed. For the past few days it has been 4 users involved, recently today the user Collect arrived today and made a comment on the matter, Collect has not explicitly endorsed any proposal though has said what he favours more, now 5 users involved as shown above. This DRN thread, as well as the previous ANI attempt to have me sanctioned, have deliberately been posted after I notified the user that I am on vacation and unable to post (after one week of pointless discussion over this silly non-issue). This is just the latest in a series of provocations posted by R-41, in his campaign to have his own images remain in use on templates. I cannot participate here nor defend my position (which is no accident), and can only call for a postponement of several weeks. ¨¨¨¨ Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. I find the flag to be the "most common" symbol. The Hakenkreuz is used by too many other groups to be a valid single choice. The eagle is pretty, but also used in military items. Thus if it were a "vote" the flag wins. Personally, I think a more immutable symbol would be the "Arbeit Macht Frei" entrance. Collect (talk) 20:23, 14 January 2013 (UTC) Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary. Hi, I'm a DRN volunteer. I've dropped notifications on Frietjes and PRODUCER's talk pages reminding them that they need to respond to the statement. If they do respond soon, I'm inclined to open and suspend the discussion until DIREKTOR is available to defend their position. If they don't respond I'm inclined to leave the status quo ante of this in place. I'd like to express my disappointment at Frietjes, DIREKTOR, and R-41 for bulk reversions that had unintended consequences to the styling of the template and for continuing to revert rather than stop and explain the viewpoint. I'd also like to express my disappointment at R-41 for demanding a RfC on the issue but not starting it himself. This thread is not open yet for comments. Hasteur (talk) 15:28, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
|
– General close. See comments for reasoning.
| Closed discussion |
|---|
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview Beeblebrox added tags based on consensus of a discussion. But he didn't add these tags. It was added by Obi2canibe. He hasn't contributed to content and he state he is not an expert on this subject. Currently there is no on going dispute on content. But there is a dispute on tags. Obi2canibe not specifically says what are the issues in the article. But they feel this page need tags. So how do I improve the page ? This dispute was reported several days back in here. But it was ended saying this is not correct location. But two administrators pointed this is the correct location. I think Qwyrxian is not a party of the dispute. But I adding him too since I am not 100% sure. Himesh84 10:06, 15 January 2013 (UTC) Have you tried to resolve this previously? Obi2canibe was asked to specifically state issues in the article from the talk page discussions. How do you think we can help? Obi2canibe has to specifically tell what are the issues in the article to put tags/improve page or not introduce tags. Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. I'm on wikibreak, but a quick look at the article tp will show that obi2canibe has clearly explained all but one ortwo of the tags, and i have as well. I don't know what more Himesh wants. Qwymobile (talk) (alt. account of Qwyrxian) 10:25, 16 January 2013 (UTC) Ethnic conflict in Sri Lanka discussionPlease do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary. Opening comments by volunteer Sleddog116 (talk): Okay - I've read a little of the background of this case and am going to do what I can to help. First, let me open by saying I will keep my input limited until all involved users have had a chance to make their opening statements. (Obi2canibe has not made his opening remarks yet.) I have looked at the relevant discussions on the talk page of the article in question, and based on how heated these discussions seem to have become, I want to make a few things clear from the beginning. First (as the box at the top of the page says), this noticeboard is not the place to comment on user conduct issues, and any such discussion will be refactored or completely removed. Also, going further along that line, even commenting on content should be limited to improving the project. We do not make judgment calls on whether someone's edits are "lies" or "unethical" because that does nothing but inflame tempers. This is a place to work out solutions. It is not a place to air our frustrations (with edits or editors). Also, to Himesh84, one small technical note: so that we have clarity, when you sign your posts, please do so with four tildes (~~~~). This makes it easier for everyone here to access you page and talk page quickly, which may be needed in some cases. And one last housekeeping note: I would like to remind everyone involved (without singling out anyone in particular) that this article is under discretionary sanctions based on Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive231#Discretionary sanctions on caste articles and more|this decision]] and logged here. Now, that being said, I would like to begin by addressing the point that Qwyrxian made. Himesh, the "orphan" tag is purely a technical one. It cannot, by nature, be "unethical." An "orphaned page" is a page that no other articles link to. If no other pages link to this page, then it is, by definition, an orphaned page, which means that the tag would indeed be needed until that is no longer the case. Any other content tags (such as the NPOV tag, etc.) are there because one or more editors feels there is a problem. The fact that this issue has come to DRN is proof that such tags are needed for the time being. However, rather than focusing on the tags, I suggest we focus on the problems themselves. The main contention is that the article is not neutral. However, there are other tags which have been disputed. The original AfD discussion in question (which took place nearly two months ago) has no bearing on the maintenance tags. Qwyrxian and Obi2canibe, why do you feel like this article needs the tags in question? I will leave the discussion there for now; we can generate more thorough discussion once Obi2canibe makes his opening remarks. Sleddog116 (talk) 19:51, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
|
– General close. See comments for reasoning.
| Closed discussion | ||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview The result of the battle is the topic of concern. I have presented multiple university sources that state three different results: Indecisive, Afghan victory and Sikh victory. Have you tried to resolve this previously?
How do you think we can help? We need a clarification to determine if we need to use what ALL university sources state about the result of a battle or to ignore specific university sources. Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. Hello, My position is that the military result for the Battle of Jamrud infobox should list this as a sikh victory for the following reasons:
The military history sources that provide detailed accounts of this battle confirm this, as opposed to the passing mention in non-military history reliance offered by opposing party. My concern on this article is that the obfuscatory approach offered by opposing party will open a pandora's box of revisionism for clear results on other military history articles on wikipedia. It will also prevent layreaders from getting a quick snapshot of what happened—forcing them to read long relativist accounts which salve wounded national pride instead of clearly stated facts. By simply reviewing tactical military objectives and results, third parties can ascertain whether battles were victories, defeats, or stalemates/inconclusive. The results should be even more obvious when involving military fortifications like jamrud, where possession is 10/10ths the law. But here the results were conclusive: The afghans failed in their attempt to take jamrud fort, the fort remained in sikh hands, and as a result, afghans were unable to take and hold territory again in India. But in spite of good faith attempt at discussion, opposing party avoided answering the question and seeks to impose a minimization without good faith discussion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Battle_of_Jamrud#Battle_of_Jamrud This battle was the culmination of a long war between sikhs and afghans, that consistently rolled back Afghan power in India as well deprived them of their winter capital at peshawar. Jamrud fort controlled the strategic khyber pass, making possession of it by the afghans necessary to retake territory in India. The sikhs decisively defeated this attempt to retake the fort, and the afghans retreated. Between the heavier casualties on the afghan side, as well as their failure to achieve the primary military objective of taking the fort, this should be a very clear sikh victory to any dispassionate third party. In sum, this dispute can be very easily resolved by answering the obvious questions: 1.what was the military objective? 2.was this objective achieved? Thank you for your time. Devanampriya (talk) 04:45, 17 January 2013 (UTC) Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. Hi, I agree with the position taken by the user Devanampriya due to stated points above by the user. My position on Battle of Jamrud is not very different from Devanampriya. First i think Kansas Bear taken this decision in hurry to refer this case to Dispute Resolution(here), but i am fyn with this. On the other hand, Takabeg claim that this was a Afghan victory because Hari Singh Nalwa was killed during or after(injured in the battle) battle is baseless. This was not first time that Military General was killed during or after(due to injuries) the battle. Jamrud Fort was in possession of Sikh Army before and after battle and also there was no territorial change in the boundary of Sikh Empire and at last not to forget Afghan retreat. Thanks Theman244 (talk) 00:37, 18 January 2013 (UTC) Battle of Jamrud discussion
As I understand this dispute, it is about what side won the battle? There can be only one winner or it is a draw. This needs to sorted out. Please begin by discussing what the relevant sources are claiming. Please be aware that all non RS sources will be dismissed as well as all non experts in this area. Note: historians will not be excluded for not being military experts. As a volunteer at DR/N, I request that every source discussed be directly linked or quoted in a text box using the parameters {{quotation|"The actual quote from the source"}} which will show as:
You may link the source and use the quote box if you desire.--Amadscientist (talk) 06:48, 19 January 2013 (UTC)
Let me be more specific. I said sources that are discussed. I did not mean for editors to just drop off sources with no discussion, but this may be clear enough. Also....could the editor that placed this here please sign the post.--Amadscientist (talk) 20:44, 19 January 2013 (UTC) OK well, this is quickly going stale. I will be closing in 24 hrs unless further discussion is created. The above sources do little without discussion. It is the obligation of those editors invloved to discuss this dispute. Without any further input I feel this should be kicked back to the talkpage.--Amadscientist (talk) 03:57, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
I'd like to begin the discussion proper by noting that it might be important to consider that the weight due to books on military history (rather than military experts themselves) may deserve to be higher for the simple reason that they are concerned with military results, and how those results were achieved, especially since the dispute is focused on the military result of the battle (i.e. who won and why?). It's less a matter of privileging a set of experts than making sure the authors themselves actually analyzed what happened rather than verbatim reprint the official claim. It's a question of analysis vs. blind reprint. When historians or cultural biographers write on a country, they may simply regurgitate primary sources (i.e. Official Afghan Chronicle or Official Sikh Chronicle) instead of actually analyzing whether the sources were accurate. We know the countries/empires frequently like to declare victory even if it was a loss for propaganda purposes--The China-Vietnam war is an example. I would also advocate that weight be assigned on the basis of whether there was a mere passing mention of a battle vs. an extended description or analysis. I would also recommend that collective recency of sources be considered as well.
Extended Account of Battle Result: Sikh Victory
Extended discussion of battle, with background, phase by phase recounting of battle, as well as the end result with implications. This is by far the most detailed account of the battle we have available, and spans over two pages (in comparison to a mere sentence or two in the sources provided by opposing party). It is also the most recent 1st edition of source we have available.(Source)
Entire paragraph on the battle with entry specifically focused on the battle of Jamrud. Clearly states that Akbar was defeated outside Jamrud, raised the siege, and withdrew, with Sikhs keeping fort. This is also specifically a military history book, focused on battles, sieges, and their outcomes.(Source)
Several paragraphs on the battle. Gives the order of battle and specifies the Sikh possession of the fort and the circumstances of Hari Singh's passing (like Nelson, was mortally wounded, not killed on the field). (Source)
Result: Sikh Victory
"For the Afghans the killing of Hari Singh Nalwa turned the defeat at Jamrud into a victory. Much as Dost Mohammed tried to claim the battle of Jamrud as an Afghan victory (he heaped public honours upon his son) , nothing could stop the ...."????(Source) It’s clear from the text that Khushwant Singh questions the afghan ruler's claim of victory, having state that “he tried to claim the battle of Jamrud as an Afghan victory”. Result: Afghan Victory
"In 1837 Dost's son, Akbar Khan, led an Afghan army to victory at Jamrud. Akbar, however, did not followup his success with an advance to Peshawar, and the city remained in Sikh hands."(Source) Only has one sentence on the entire battle. Merely says afghan victory—doesn’t say why. Also says no advance on Peshawar, lending credence to possibility of afghan defeat. If this was a victory--why not go on to recapture other lost territories in India--especially the old Afghan capital of Peshawar.
"The history of the delimitation of the Durand Line development of the Afghan State (1838-1898), University of Wisconsin--Madison, p62;"1837 they fought a pitched battle at Jamrud in which the Afghan forces were victorious."(Source) Two sentences on battle. Does not explain what happened, or why it was victory based on military results. Merely said death of hari singh demoralized sikh regiments, so the afghans claimed victory. Editorializes without stating bald fact of what happened—and most importantly—who retained possession of fort.
"He defeated the Sikhs at the Battle of Jamrud (1837) and assumed the title “Commander of the Faithful” (Amir-ul-Mu'minin)" (Source) Only passing mention of battle in account of Sardar Mohammed Akbar entry--merely repeats the claim in 2 separate phrases elsewhere. Result: Inconclusive/Unclear
""At the battle of Jamrud neither side could honestly claim a victory, but the Sikhs suffered severely at the hands of the Afghan horsemen, and they lost one of their king's favorite generals, Hari Singh"(Source) Only has one sentence, and says inconclusive. Also, older publication--dating back to the late 1960s.
"The doubtful Sikh victory at Jamrud in 1837 had made it clear to Ranjit Singh that policy of hatred and repression in the northwestern frontier so far pursued had failed in its objective." ((Source) Unclear how this should be read--says "sikh victory" but also qualifies it as "doubtful". Hence in the unclear category.
By tally alone, Sikh victory is favored. This is further reinforced by the fact that 2 of the Sikh victory sources give extended accounts of the battle that actually explain why it was a Sikh victory. These 2 (of 4 favorable sources) were also the most recent and most weighty (coming from objective (non-indian, non-afghan) authors) and were specifically focused on the topic of Military History. In contrast, opposing party favors 3 sources that only have a sentence or two on the battle, no explanation for the result, and one of which has an Afghan author. The lopsided nature of the source weight, due to the analysis as well as length of the respective accounts, alone should demonstrate the correct outcome. Most of all, the fact that only the sikh victory sources give clear and credible military reasons for the victory shows how clearcut the npov resolution to this dispute should be. One of the sources actually mentions that the Afghans were simply attempting to put on a brave face for their loss (honours), by spinning it as a victory perhaps due to the subsequent death of Hari Singh--even the though the battle was over the fort. Thus, it is totally possible that the sources claiming afghan victory were simply regurgitating the official afghan claims rather than actually analyzing the battle. NPOV as clearly written doesn’t mean WP: undue weight. When there’s a majority of sources in favor, (by quantity, quality, and recency), that should be given pride of place. Outdated or non-analyzed/minority assertions can be included in the main article (rather than infobox) as a “see also”—this comes directly from the NPOV page. Due to all these factors, both on the basis of secondary source tally as well as secondary source analysis (what was the military objective, why was this a victory?), the academic weight far and away favors the Sikh Victory result. Devanampriya (talk) 07:15, 20 January 2013 (UTC) Response to Devanampriya Paddy Docherty was educated at Oxford University, where he also won a Blue for boxing and was Junior Dean of Brasenose College. Born in Scotland and raised in Gloucestershire in the west of England, Paddy has also lived in Africa and the Middle East, and currently lives in Prague. He has been a ranch hand, chef, oil & gas consultant, internet entrepreneur, shipbroker and investment banker. I see nothing about his expertise in history, Sikhs or Afghans.[41] Dr. H.S. Singha. I found nothing online concerning his area of expertise. He has authored numerous books about Sikhs & Sikhism(as a cultural biographer). Perhaps Devanampriya, should look at Dr. Singha's opinion(s) concerning the battle with his own advice;"When historians or cultural biographers write on a country, they may simply regurgitate primary sources (i.e. Official Afghan Chronicle or Official Sikh Chronicle) instead of actually analyzing whether the sources were accurate. Unfortunately, Devanampriya has latched onto the idea that providing sources written by individuals with no formal training(as historians) or cultural biographers will allow him to suppress other sources. He prefers this over university sources, why? Instead of deciding for ourselves the result of the battle, we should take what universities have stated regardless of "passing mention" or "result" and provide the readers with all the reliably sourced information. We, as editors, are not here to determine the result of this battle. We are here to supply reliable sources to write an article. Anyone can search for Sikh victory at Jamrud, but how many university sources support this? How many support a different outcome from the battle? Why can we not indicate what every university source, we can find, states? Since Devanampriya is worried about cultural bias determining the result of the battle then by default we should rely on university sources not books written by non-specialists or cultural biographers. --Kansas Bear (talk) 18:19, 20 January 2013 (UTC)
Reply to Kansas Bear, 2
1. Paddy Docherty- Kansas Bear wrote this " I see nothing about his expertise in history". However, Kansas Bear conveniently omitted this fact clearly available on Docherty's About the Author Page: "Paddy Docherty graduated from Oxford University...his graduate research into British imperial history led him to the North West Frontier and he travelled to Pakistan and Afghanistan in the winter of 2003 to research The Khyber Pass, his first book." (Source) But I suppose Kansas Bear omitted this fact because that would merely have been fluff and "original research", so he chose an alternate, less credible link to suit his characterization--much as he did on the Battle of Jamrud page. 2. Tony Jaques-This author's "Dictionary of Sieges and Battles", cited for this dispute, was peer-reviewed by historians by an editorial board of academics at well-known institutions such as University College London. (Source), see p.3. In addition, his educational background is in Political Science and Journalism--hardly unrelated to field of military history and geopolitics (Source) 3. H.S. Singha--Is Director of a University/Institute of Management and Technology(Source), a University Professor, was the former Chairman of the Indian Central Secondary Education Board, and was a former Indian Army Colonel (Source) --I suppose Kansas Bear will now say that Army Colonel Professors are "non-specialists" and have no knowledge of or capability to analyze military history... This is the problem when wiki editors only engage in surface level research and mischaracterize/omit instrumental facts that end up actually being adverse to their questionable conclusions. Singha is clearly not a layperson, applied a military mind to a military historical matter, and is university level professor. It is precisely this type of fact-omission, poor research, and selective-reading by Kansas Bear that has made it difficult to help him understand what is required for an accurate article. Why omit the fact that Paddy Docherty (who has the most comprehensive account and analysis of the battle) was an Oxford graduate student who researched british imperial history?--I suppose Kansas Bear will now conveniently backtrack and say he never came across...the about the author webpage...of the very first google hit for "Paddy Docherty". It's one thing if he doesn't comment in good faith on the talk page, but it's quite another to prejudice the facts at an admin moderated dispute resolution. The irony is that the admin actually had previously noted that military experts weren't the only ones who would be considered. All I referred to was providing Due Weight to works that are actual military histories--in that they focus on the actual details of the battle, analyze them, and explain the conclusion. Further, in my comprehensive list of sources, I didn't even include the "Proceedings from the Punjab University" source even though it was favorable and a university source, which Kansas Bear believes is the be-all-end-all even if there's no analysis or basis or support for the battle conclusion. I could easily have added it to my tally above to make it 5-3 in my favor, for a commanding majority of sources, but it's important that sources are verifiable and credible--the "Proceedings at the Punjab University" source didn't appear to be, so I set it aside even though it was favorable to me; that's called good faith editing. The point isn't even about university sources, the point is whether these were detailed analytical publications that justified their conclusions rather than merely driveby passing mentions in circumstantially related books and theses. As for H.S. Singha and cultural biography--that's my point. If Kansas Bear didn't have that unfortunate little habit of selective reading, he would see that I placed my primary reliance on Docherty and Jaques--not Singha when I said this: "This is further reinforced by the fact that 2 of the Sikh victory sources give extended accounts of the battle that actually explain why it was a Sikh victory. These 2 (of 4 favorable sources) were also the most recent and most weighty (coming from objective (non-indian, non-afghan) authors) and were specifically focused on the topic of Military History." Thus, it's clear that unlike him, I'm not placing primary reliance on cultural biographers or nationalism-biased authors, but objective, third party analysts. In contrast, Kansas Bear's reliance is on the following: Zalmay Gulzad-His work doesn't even appear to be a widely published book, but a mere school thesis(Source), See "Notes: Typescript Thesis (Ph.D.)--University of Wisconsin--Madison, 1991 ". If his "Durand Line Delimitation" work was indeed just a student thesis, that made only passing mention of Jamrud, then that means it not only was a work that didn't focus on military history, but was, unlike the works of Docherty and Jaques, reviewed by only his thesis advisor and required degree granting panel. If the wikipedia entry on him is correct, rather than a "university source" as Kansas Bear paints him out to be, he's a professor of social sciences at a community college--big difference(Source). The work Kansas Bear uses here, unlike the Docherty and Jaques books, isn't even available on amazon, lending further credence to the point that the Gulzad work is a mere thesis.
Ludwig Adamec-Effectively wrote a cultural biography with his Dictionary of Afghanistan. His work merely made passing mention of jamrud. He did not analyze it for pages like other authors did. Nothing more need be said. Thus, what we see here is a track record of Kansas Bear omitting important facts and selective reading, which is why he left out Paddy Docherty's University graduate level study in history. His research is so poor he was unable to even unearth favorable information to him (Jeffrey Roberts, history professor)--I had to volunteer it myself. That's the difference between a good faith editor interested in accurate articles and a nationalist keyboard warrior. This is what has made it so difficult to ensure an accurate article as well as engage in a good faith discussion with Kansas Bear. Furthermore, if Kansas Bear had any understanding of Wikipedia Core Content Policy, he would realize that WP: ORIGINAL RESEARCH, which he accused me of here, "We, as editors, are not here to determine the result of this battle.", applies to primary sources, not secondary sources:[[42]]. His poor understanding of (or bad faith description) of wikipedia policy is emblematic of how he's less interested in accurate articles and wiki collegiality and more interested in labeling good faith editors and pushing a nationalist agenda by any means. In sum, from Kansas Bear's perspective, student theses are equivalent to published history award-winning books, passing mentions outweigh detailed battle analyses, and military officers have no military expertise and are "non-specialists". Of course, all of this leaves out the obvious fact that we have secondary sources themselves that clearly state that the battle was about capturing the fort of Jamrud, which is why it was a Sikh victory, since the Sikhs kept the fort--the Afghan military objective failed. Therefore, in comparing the competing secondary sources, which rationale makes more sense? Devanampriya (talk) 05:53, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
He claims to be uninvolved, is not a party to the dispute, yet selectively targets my comments, and also attempts to speak with (unknown) authority. He also misunderstands Original research. Here's what it means: "The purpose of the original research is to produce new knowledge, rather than to present the existing knowledge in a new form (e.g., summarized or classified)." (Meaning). I have not produced any new knowledge, I am merely presenting the existing knowledge in summary form--"i.e.the sikhs won the battle of jamrud, because secondary sources wrote x,y,z". Is AndytheGrump attempting to mischaracterize that fact that the secondary sources themselves said it was a sikh victory due to x,y,z reasons? The official wiki core policy on original research states this: "This would be a synthesis of published material to advance a new position, which is original research. A and B, therefore C is acceptable only if a reliable source has published the same argument in relation to the topic of the article."[[43]] How have I synthesized anything? Sikh victory is not a new position. All I did was point out the secondary sources that said it was a Sikh Victory, and then pointed out that they did detailed analysis on the topic and gave arguments for why the sikhs won, as opposed to the passing mention done by Afghan victory authors that had no supporting arguments. Compiling secondary source arguments and presenting that analysis is not original research.
Because most publications aren't available online in their entirety, I can only send you google book preview links or see inside amazon links. These frequently do not allow the user to link directly to the specific text that lists what source said. That is why I made it a point to include page numbers for your convenience, so you know which entry I refer to by searching the page. This also allows for readers to search inside the book himself/herself using "jamrud" as a search term.
By that Official Wiki standard, would that not mean that the Zalmay Gulzad book on Delimitation of the Durand Line is disqualified, since it could not be considered a "published source directly related to the topic of the article"? I only point this out because it appears to be an unpublished thesis focused on delimitation/border issues rather than historical accounts of battles. It also calls into question the Roberts book, since the Battle of Jamrud (Sikhs and Afghans) had nothing to do with the unrelated Origins of the 2001 American-Afghan war. Even the Adamec book becomes questionable since it's a general cultural biography, with a passing mention of jamrud. Thank you. Devanampriya (talk) 07:33, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
As an uninvolved editor, can I suggest that next thing to do is to take all the sources to WP: RSN. The best way to present them is author, title, publisher and date of publication. The question is the same in every case: is this source reliable for the outcome of the Battle of Jamrut. Don't add what the source says about the outcome. Then when you have a list of sources considered reliable, if they disagree, you can summarise them in the format "X argues but Y argues". Itsmejudith (talk) Regarding "Question to Admin" My "Questions to Admin" response was addressed to Amadscientist, as it was my understanding that since he was in charge of the dispute resolution, he had such authority. Apologies if that was unclear, but I am not a regular in Dispute Resolution processes. My concerns about editor AndyTheGrump were expressed given the very recent complaints about his incivility on his talk page. I have no problem if good faith comments are made, but selective targeting and continuing incivility is a natural concern to any dispute party. In any event, as Amadscientist stipulated, I will reserve comment on new commenters as per the code of conduct. With respect to my comments regarding opposing editor, I am unclear as to why they are viewed as attacks. Opposing editor stated without evidence that I was conducting original research and made snarky comments about me and cultural biographers; how is pointing out selective research and fact omission conducted by him being a problem an attack? In any event, I am more than happy to engage in discussion civilly, and will observe the code of conduct as stipulated by the DR mediator with the understanding that it will be applied equally. I am also awaiting the DR mediator's response to my questions--specifically the issue he had with accessing the concerned text. Do the page numbers help? Do you need me to repost the links in the hopes that specific text is pulled? Please let me know. Thank you. With respective to CarrieVS's comments, here is my response: Thank you for attempting to clarify my questions. However, I must respectfully disagree: 1. Sikh Victory is not a new position even within a single source. If you take a look at the Tony Jaques source above, it specifically notes that the Afghans were defeated outside Jamrud and withdrew. The specific argument for Sikh victory therefore comes directly from the source. If it was a defeat for party A, then it's a victory for party B--it's not synthesis, it's axiomatic. The overbroad logical standard you appear to be setting here is not explicitly mentioned in the core policy--and for good reason. Summary is neither synthesis nor original research, and does not require verbatim text. Wikipedia infoboxes are formatted to state whom the victor was rather than loser--for the record, I think stating "Afghan defeat" would be accurate and acceptable as well. Thus, no original research has been conducted since the argument about Afghan Defeat/Sikh Victory comes directly from a reliable, academically reviewed source, "Dictionary of Battles and Sieges". This is also supplemented by the Col. H.S. Singha book which said Hari Singh (the Sikh Commander) "lost his life but not the battle". 2. I just wanted to make sure Amadscientist could access the concerned text from the above sources. Google books does not always let one do so, which is why I listed page numbers and later recommended a specific search term to make sure the Reviewer could access the concerned material. 3. With respective to Verifiability, if you read further down, reliable sources are clearly stipulated as follows: [[44]]. "The best sources have a professional structure in place for checking or analyzing facts, legal issues, evidence, and arguments. The greater the degree of scrutiny given to these issues, the more reliable the source." Just to clarify, this is my point about "Extended Accounts vs Passing Mentions", since three sources I provided spent time actually "analyzing facts" instead of merely supplying an unjustified conclusion, aka passing mention. The Gulzad thesis, Roberts book, and Adamec book all make passing mentions rather than go about analyzing facts pertaining to the issue at hand. By WP standards, Gulzad, et al are less reliable as sources than Docherty et al. In addition, the policy also states "Completed dissertations written as part of the requirements for a PhD, and which are publicly available, are considered publications by scholars and can be cited in footnotes if it is shown that they have entered mainstream academic discourse and therefore have been vetted by the scholarly community.".[[45]] It has not been demonstrated that the Zalmay Gulzad unpublished thesis in question entered mainstream academic discourse and was vetted by the scholarly community at large--only his advisors and degree panel. This was the concern I expressed above. In contrast, the Docherty book has been clearly vetted, reviewed, and even given awards by actually professors of history at reputable institutions. The Jaques book was also reviewed by an editorial board of professional historians and history faculty members at recognized institutions. Thanks again for your comment. Regards, Devanampriya (talk) 21:44, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
Devanampriya (talk) 23:51, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
|
| Completely unsuitable, the last comment by User:JimTheFrog was three months ago. His last edit on en.wikipedia was more than two months ago and he has less than 20 edits in the last year. Additionally, it seems he as a conflict of interest. He should attempt to avoid editing the article, especially removing NPOV tags if a percieved issue exists. I would recommend taking this to the folks at WT:NPOV. Cabe6403 (Talk•Sign) 14:07, 22 January 2013 (UTC) |
| Closed discussion |
|---|
– General close. See comments for reasoning. Filed by BurritoBazooka on 22:10, 19 January 2013 (UTC). Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview One editor, JimTheFrog, who appears to be an expert in UltraViolet, and who has personally worked on and gained from UltraViolet, has been editing UltraViolet in a way which it sounds self-promoting and non-neutral. I feel that criticism needs to be added, because there is plenty of criticism going around on the Internet of UltraViolet. The process is slow, because UltraViolet is relatively new. JimTheFrog has been accused by other users on the talk page as a "big time Microsoft shill." The dispute is that JimTheFrog feels that there is no POV issue, and has twice now removed POV tags, citing things like the fact that no meaningful discussion has been forming in the space of a few months, and therefore that the POV tag should not remain. All the while, the POV issue has remained as unresolved as it did at the start of the discussion. No criticism has made its way into the article. I've already re-added the tags once, and adding it again would start an edit war. Firstly, we need to figure out whether this article really does have a POV issue (I think it does). After this primary dispute has been resolved, we can start looking at adding some of the disadvantages to UltraViolet, and finally make some progress in trying to make it neutral, if it is deemed to have an POV issue. NB: While I only added me and JimTheFrog into the 'Users involved' field, I think that the other users on the page are also involved. But I am unsure whether they feel that they are involved, or feel they have abandoned the discussion already. This path seems more applicable than Third Opinion. Have you tried to resolve this previously? Determined that JimTheFrog works for DECE. But he has claimed that he edited the article before he joined DECE staff. He only points to a LinkedIn profile (Jim Taylor). Attempted to find sources of criticism. No source has been reliable. At this moment, I feel I cannot attempt to find criticism if the article turns out not to have any POV issues, as JimTheFrog has claimed. How do you think we can help? Look at the article, and decide whether a POV tag should remain in the header of the article, or whether it should not be added. Decide whether a very major source given by JimTheFrog, and written by him (Jim Taylor), is a reliable source in resolving the POV matter on the whole (http://uvdemystified.com/), or whether it would only work towards making the POV matter worse. Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. Talk:UltraViolet (system) discussionHello, I volunteer here at DRN. I'm currently reading through the existing dispute. Can I ask that JimTheFrog is informed that this dispute remains here and we can't continue until he joins the process. Thanks, Cabe6403 (Talk•Sign) 13:53, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
|
| Closed discussion |
|---|
– General close. See comments for reasoning. Filed by Alannna on 08:25, 22 January 2013 (UTC). Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview Earl Mindell received his Pharmacy Degree in 1963, not 1964. Pacific Western University was accredited in 1963 in the state of California. In a letter dated Feb 16,2007 from Sheila M. Hawkins, Education Administrator, Bureau for Private Postsecondary and Vocational Education, State of California, she stated "Pacific Western University was granted authorization to operate as a California Degree Granting institution by the State Department of Education. Among its programs was the PH.D. in Nutrition.
I have tried to edit with explanations. How do you think we can help? By putting in the correct facts! Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. earl mindell discussionHi, I'm Carrie, and I'm a volunteer here at the DRN. I have a couple of questions about the situation:
Thank you, CarrieVS (talk) 14:12, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
|
– General close. See comments for reasoning.
| Closed discussion |
|---|
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview I am an attorney representing John J. Anderson, co-founder of L.I.F.T., a Louisiana business created to produce films. The former co-owner of the business, Malcolm Patel, was recently released from federal prison for bribing a public official in an unrelated business. He has modified the Wiki LIFT page to include personal attacks on my client which may cause business harm and loss of reputation. Have you tried to resolve this previously? There are several pending lawsuits and countersuits between the parties. How do you think we can help? Lock down the page and prevent modifications that include personal attacks. Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.
Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. LIFT Productions discussionPlease do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary. Although the English Wikipedia has policies in place regarding contentious statements about living people, this isn't the right forum for your request. Please visit the biographies of living persons noticeboard for assistance. I will leave this message for about 24 hours to make sure you see it, then this request will be closed. —Darkwind (talk) 03:15, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
|
– General close. See comments for reasoning.
| Closed discussion |
|---|
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview After reviewing the Template:Infobox gymnast page, I added the height & weight (with year as per example) to the already present Infobox on Olga Korbut page. This change was undone by Littleolive oil. The reason given was that the information was not stable & not encyclopedic, and the citation indicated height/weight was measured after career was over. I have since obtained new citations that provide height/weight during Korbut's career, but Littleolive oil said that the citations must reference how Korbut's height/weight impacted her career. This part is what I dispute. I feel it is an unreasonable requirement. I assume the gymnast infobox has already gone through an approval process, and both height/weight were included for a reason. As well, I can find no precedence anywhere stating the height/weight citations require specific references to the impact of an Olympic athletes career. Height/weight are important to an athlete in any sport. Although height/weight can fluctuate, the templates I've viewed state to add the year in parenthesis when the weight/height was measured as it may change over time. I've also reviewed various other Olympic athletes on wikipedia (Michael Phelps, McKayla Maroney, Gabby Douglas, Jordyn Wieber, Aly Raisman, Kyla Ross, Justin Spring, Tom Malchow, Tom Dolan, Louis Smith, Max Whitlock) and I have yet to find a citation for height/weight that states how height/weight impacted a career. I believe I'm following the standard outlined in the Template:Infobox gymnast, and every Olympic athlete's page I have viewed that has one or both height & weight within that infobox. Citations: Women and Sports in the United States: A Documentary Reader(O'Reilly & Cahn) Sports Around the World: History, Culture, and Practice (Nauright & Parrish) I have another citation that states the importance of height/weight in gymnastics, but not specifically Korbut:How to Create Champions: The Theory and Methodology of Training Top-Class Gymnasts(L.I. Arkaev) Have you tried to resolve this previously? I received assistance from Legoktm via IRC initially who helped get clarification on Littleolive oil objection. I also received assistance from various people on IRC #wikipedia-en-help. In the talk page Littleolive oil recommended I use a noticeboard to resolve this. How do you think we can help? I guess we need a ruling if height/weight in the 'Template:Infobox gymnast' requires a citation that indicates height or weight specific impact on a gymnasts career, rather than just the information itself. And I suppose all other biographies infobox templates where height/weight are of importance. I would like to be able to add this information with my current reliable sources as provided above User, talk-page discussion: [46] My objections were; That height after a gymnasts career isn't significant, in Korbut's case, after 2002. She retired in 1977. Weight fluctuates and data on a specific weight is not significant in and of itself. Height and weight alone do not impact the gymnasts career. I suggested that Mjeromee could or should use content if it came from a reliable source and indicated how those measurements impacted a career. Weight and height as a ratio to strength, and in relation to each other impact a career. As a one time competitive gymnast I an very aware of that, but we can't add content based on what we know which is a form of WP:OR. I have no objection to adding content on this in the body of the article, in context, and with a RS as support. (olive (talk) 00:35, 25 January 2013 (UTC)) The source [47] doesn't say anything about whether Korbut's size affected her in any way but does give her height and weight in 1968 when she was 13. If there is a consensus to include this I have no problems with it, but it must be included only in context of Korbut's age at that time.(olive (talk) 00:44, 25 January 2013 (UTC)) Olga Korbut discussionPlease do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.
|
– This request has been open for some time and must be reviewed.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview
The mentioning of Cinema of Andhra Pradesh as the Second largest Film industry in India is being disputed
RTPking (talk) 08:05, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
Discussing on Talk page.
How do you think we can help?
Please see the citations and proof presented by each side and decide who is right. RTPking (talk) 08:05, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.
- The claim is highly subjective. Second by what means? No. of films produced, revenue or distribution? There are a lot of contradicting sources which say Tamil as well as Telugu to the second biggest in India. I came across a few sources claiming Tamil to be the second largest in India [48], [49] and second in terms of revenue, distribution and star base. —Vensatry (Ping me) 17:16, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
Cinema of Andhra Pradesh discussion
- I can provide as many sources which state Telugu Cinema as Second,for instance
- www.georgetown.edu Paper Presented by S.V. Srinivas Ph.D in George Town University Washington D.C
- http://www.bbc.co.uk/ ------ Mentions Tamil third after Bollywood and Tollywood (Telugu cinema)
Most of these conclusions provided as citations which have been compiled by someone else's logic which may or may not be true, I suggest we disregard all these and each provide data backed by good Citations and based on which derive to logical conclusions. RTPking (talk) 23:29, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
- Just a note (to DRN volunteers: I'm monitoring this matter as an admin, not an editor): Your suggestion is not allowed: we don't look at primary data and draw conclusions from it; rather, we go by what reliable sources say. As to the overall dispute, though, just because we have conflicting sources means we say nothing; rather, what we usually do is provide both sides of the story, with references, covering them fairly per WP:NPOV. Is there a way that the two of you could agree to this sort of set-up? Qwyrxian (talk) 05:27, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
- Comment about the two sources provided by User:RTPking: The first one is a paper presented by someone as a part of their research. I see no reputation of the person and he has never explained by what meas he claims the industry to be the second biggest. The BBC source is just a forum where many users have expressed their thoughts, lot of which were based on arguments from Wikipedia itself. —Vensatry (Ping me) 07:41, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
I can provide as many good sources as you may need,
- http://ibnlive.in.com/news/telugu-industry-to-observe-shutdown-on-fri/112050-8-69.html
- http://www.thehindu.com/arts/cinema/telugu-film-industry-mou-with-motion-pictures-association-of-america/article3205612.ece
I hope the above sources would suffice.
I agree with User:Qwyrxian ; RTPking (talk) 22:04, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
Vensatry please mention whether or not you agree with Qwyrxian and mention your reasons. RTPking (talk) 08:37, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
- Hi, i am a volunteer for the DRN. If I understood correctly the dispute is about mentioning Telugu Film Industry being the second largest in India? If so, let us understand that exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources (WP:EXCEPTIONAL) and Where there is disagreement between sources, use in-text attribution (WP:NPOV) which means that we can have a statement like while such-and-such paper said in 2012 that the Telugu Film industry was number two in terms of revenue, in the same year so-and-so paper said that the tamil film industry was number one. So this discussion need not be about choosing this or that. -Wikishagnik (talk) 04:23, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
- Firstly I need to mention to you that it is already established that Bollywood has the first place, now this disagreement is about the second place whether Telugu or Tamil holds the second place.
Please see the above discussion as well as the Talk page of Cinema of Andhra Pradesh to find citations supporting Telugu Film industry as Second largest, and citations provided by Vensatry in this discussion stating that Tamil industry is second largest. My question is Vensatry has provided citations of the same news paper {The Hindu} for stating Tamil holding second position which also states Telugu as Second largest, but yet he want it mentioned in Tamil cinema but opposes being mentioned on Cinema of andhra Pradesh I suggest both articles mention this information and also the details that the other cine industry is also considered second simulateanously. I request Vensatry to comment whether he agrees to this solution, the same which User:Qwyrxian proposed. RTPking (talk) 23:00, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
- If there is a contentious statement which can be proven either way with the help of reliable sorces we may do one of the following
- Delete the material in question and say nothing.
- Keep the material and place both poisitions in the article with reliable sources (as I have illustrated before). This can be done even with the hinkdu as a source as the newspaper ranked both film industries at different and hence, the statement about the telugu film industry being he second largest film industry can be qualified accordingly. -Wikishagnik (talk) 03:42, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
- None of the sources provided by RTPking explicitly say by what means the industry is second largest. The sources might mean that the industry is second largest in terms of films produced annually. But size of the industry with respect to revenue or world-wide distribution is unclear. I've provided sources stating that the Tamil film industry is second biggest in terms of revenue. I'd suggest we remove the claims altogether from both the pages to avoid conflicts. —Vensatry (Ping me) 07:02, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
- RTPking, are you OK with the compromise? We can split hair here and quote Hindu articles to say something like according to The Hindu in the year 20xx tamil film industry was number two while in the year 20yy Telugu film industry... but that would simply confuse readers and invite debate about The Hindu as WP:RS as I have not found any reliable source that says how the Hindu comes to these conclusions. -Wikishagnik (talk) 05:46, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
- I agree with Wikishagnik that both articles mention that they are Second largest film industry in India, providing the sources this is a good way to compromise. RTPking (talk) 01:03, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
- RTPking, I think you've misunderstood Wikishagnik. His recommendation is the same as Vesantry's: that we don't say either one is the "second largest". Do you actually agree with not mentioning anything about second largest? Qwyrxian (talk) 02:28, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
- I agree with Wikishagnik that both articles mention that they are Second largest film industry in India, providing the sources this is a good way to compromise. RTPking (talk) 01:03, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
- No do not agree on not mentioning on both articles, if there is information available it should be made visible on wikipedia on both articles, stating each of them are considered second largest and provide the sources. RTPking (talk) 19:08, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
– This request has been open for some time and must be reviewed.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
Users involved
- Jenova20 (talk · contribs)
- Collect (talk · contribs)
- Dreamyshade (talk · contribs)
- Pscorp19 (talk · contribs)
- Christian1985 (talk · contribs)
Dispute overview
There is a dispute over the addition of 2-3 lines detailing a controversy of a newspaper accidentally publishing the wrong article. Readers noticed that not only was it the wrong verdict in a court case, but that the publisher had made fake quotes and a further claim of a suicide watch order being placed on one person. This is reliably cited and User:Collect keeps removing all mention to the actual controversy, leaving only a biased statement playing down the incident as something a few other publications did. Not only do i find this incredibly biased protectionism, but it also removes the controversy aimed at the Mail Online. Further he has accused me of BLP violations for restoring it once as "censorship" with no discussion before hand (even though there is one on the talk page).
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
Talk page discussion going nowhere fast
How do you think we can help?
Deciding on appropriate wording of the section or clarifying if it should just state that there was a controversy, but nothing other rival publications didn't do (a biased and incorrect fact currently stated)
Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.
This is a "misuse of sources dispute" on two claims.
First is a claim whcih implies that the MO "published" an article with falsehoods therein, and did not remove it - where the "article" was visible online for all of a half hour and appears to have been a routine "placeholder" whose significance is being overstated by the wording of the claim made. I sought to have the claim represent what the source actually states as fact.
- In October 2011, MailOnline and several other newspapers published articles on Amanda Knox's trial, based on a possible upholding of the guilty verdict. The articles remained online until the announcememt of the reversal of the guilty verdict is a reasonable statement of the facts as presented in the sources given.
The second is a complete misuse of a source "Poynter" where I went to what the original source states.
- In March 2012, Poynter published an article saying the MailOnline did not always attribute stories from other sources. Martin Clarke, editor of MailOnline said "We will soon be introducing features that will allow us to link easily and prominently to other sites when further recognition of source material is needed is a reasonable and proper statement of what the source actually states.
This is thus a dispute over how far a Wikipedia claim may misstate what a source says, and should be at WP:RS/N if the proponent really feels that the claim as that editor worded it is supportable by the source. Collect (talk) 15:36, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
Note: The wrong article was online for all of 90 seconds according to strong reliable sources. The sources cited make clear that this was true of several newspapers, making that cavil errant. I do not think that using what the sources say is "biased" nor did I "remove criticism" at all. Cheers. Collect (talk) 16:36, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
Mail Online discussion
Please do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.
I am a regular volunteer here at DRN. A look at the talk page of the article suggests that there are a number of other editors involved in this dispute, most notably Dreamyshade, Pscorp19, and Christian1985 but there may be others as well. Is there some reason why they should not be included here and notified on their talk pages? Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 18:14, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
- Not really -- but I suggest that the consensus on that article talk page makes this DRN moot. All editors but one agree on the wording I proposed as being neutral and BLP-compliant. Collect (talk) 22:42, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
- I was notified on my talk page, and it looks like those other two editors were notified as well. For context, I started looking at this article after seeing a request on WP:3O. I'm OK with Collect's changes. There's a larger disagreement on the talk page about how to cover critical material, but since the article now has attention from multiple editors, we can hopefully work it out via talk page discussion. If that doesn't seem to be working, it could be helpful to have a dispute resolution discussion about the larger disagreement, not just a couple details. Dreamyshade (talk) 23:37, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
- Update: I posted to the talk page with a suggested revision to improve the clarity of the Knox sentence. Dreamyshade (talk) 00:11, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
- The other editors were notified well before you posted TransportMan, i just didn't see them as essential to this as at the time it was a disagreement mainly between me and Collect over censorship of information and is now over protecting the Mail Online from any criticism at all, no matter how much coverage it gets or how significant. Thanks ツ Jenova20 (email) 09:58, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
- The problem is evident - I try to maintain WP:BLP, WP:RS and WP:NPOV and get accused of "censorship" and "protecting the Mail OnLine from any criticism at all" which is a fatuous argument entirely. The "big issue" is how much weight to attach to a placeholder story accidentally released for 90 seconds online, and whether to say the MO "fabricated" the story in a lengthy paragraph. I suggest that a brief mention avoids UNDUE and POV issues. Jenova apparently feels that the claim of "fabrication" must be made in as lengthy manner a possible. Cheers. Collect (talk) 15:22, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
- There is no BLP violation, that's a crap argument from the Conservative wikiproject, which Lionelt used to use for the removal of information from Ex-gay articles, and which you are using to remove anything about a well sourced and reliably sourced criticism of the Mail Online making up a story in preparation and publishing it at the wrong verdict. This was caught and reported. Making your RS and BLP tags a smokescreen to remove the controversy, and instead wording the section to praise the Mail Online (That's the best one yet, while claiming the other wordings proposed are biased or undue weight).
- The problem still persists between the me and Collect, but more opinions are welcome. Thanks ツ Jenova20 (email) 15:42, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
- The problem is evident - I try to maintain WP:BLP, WP:RS and WP:NPOV and get accused of "censorship" and "protecting the Mail OnLine from any criticism at all" which is a fatuous argument entirely. The "big issue" is how much weight to attach to a placeholder story accidentally released for 90 seconds online, and whether to say the MO "fabricated" the story in a lengthy paragraph. I suggest that a brief mention avoids UNDUE and POV issues. Jenova apparently feels that the claim of "fabrication" must be made in as lengthy manner a possible. Cheers. Collect (talk) 15:22, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
- And i like your "lengthy paragraph" part, especially as my wording only adds 3 words to the one proposed by the third opinion (Dreamyshade) and your wording is longer than that!
- My preferred wording:
- In October 2011, MailOnline and several other newspapers temporarily published prepared articles on Amanda Knox's trial reporting an upholding of the guilty verdict before the judge finished announcing the reversal of the guilty verdict. MailOnline removed the article within 90 seconds and apologized, and the error was the subject of a Press Complaints Commission complaint that noted the article's reporting of fictional quotes and reactions that had not taken place and said that was "not acceptable".
- Collect's:
- In October 2011, MailOnline and several other newspapers accidentally released placeholder articles based on a possible guilty verdict in the Amanda Knox case. The Mail Online article was viewable for about 90 seconds, before being replaced with the article prepared for a "not guilty" verdict. The Mail OnLine apologized, and was the subject of a Press Complaints Commission complaint. The PCC said 'It also welcomed the swiftness of the newspaper's response and its decision to examine its procedures in light of the events.
- Thanks ツ Jenova20 (email) 15:50, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
- Jenova20's preferred version looks much more balanced, staying much truer to the source. Collect's version misdirects the reader toward a positive spin, misinterpreting the sources which are mainly negative. Binksternet (talk) 17:30, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
- The aim is to actually obey WP:NPOV and my "version" on the talk page quotes the PCC directly -- which I suggest is a good way to avoid POV wording. That you see NPOV as "positive spin" I find quite amazing, as I did Jenova's overt claim that I have a COI on the talk page. The PCC said that the actions taken to prevent any recurrence were commendable, by the way. Cheers. Collect (talk) 18:05, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
- Jenova20's preferred version looks much more balanced, staying much truer to the source. Collect's version misdirects the reader toward a positive spin, misinterpreting the sources which are mainly negative. Binksternet (talk) 17:30, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
Here's what I posted to the talk page: The thing I'm seeing is that the MailOnline article was unusual enough for the PCC to go through the process of upholding a complaint about it, unlike the errors published by the other newspapers. If the MailOnline had published a brief prepared story reporting on the guilty verdict as if it had happened, this wouldn't have been particularly notable; the problem was that the MailOnline included "colourful" speculative details as well. I think these links show that reliable sources didn't consider it routine. The PCC complaint was not heavy though, balancing a reprimand for the story and details with an acknowledgement of removing it quickly and apologizing, so I want to include it but not overstate it.
Looking at Jenova20's modification of my proposal, I believe saying "fictional" quotes isn't supported by the sources, and the added "fictional quotes" phrase is somewhat redundant with saying "reactions that had not taken place".
Thanks to Collect for writing a proposal too, since it's easier to discuss this with specifics instead of abstractions. Here's what I said on the talk page explaining that I prefer my proposal: I believe saying "accidentally" and "possible guilty verdict" also isn't quite supported by the sources; according to the "quotes that seemed useful to me for reference on what happened" above, the articles were published on purpose since the newspapers thought a guilty verdict had happened - they were just mistakes. Is the term "set and hold" familiar to most UK readers, or do we need to define that if we use it? (I'm in the US and hadn't heard the term before looking at these sources.) It's also important to be clear that this event was about the appeal's upholding or reversal of the guilty verdict, not the original guilty verdict. I think we should also briefly summarize the PCC complaint instead of quoting part of it, to help with due weight.
Here's another attempt that tries to include the PCC complaint's positive elements:
- In October 2011, MailOnline and several other newspapers temporarily published prepared articles on Amanda Knox's trial reporting an upholding of the guilty verdict before the judge finished announcing the reversal of the guilty verdict. MailOnline removed the article within 90 seconds and apologized, and the error was the subject of a Press Complaints Commission complaint that noted the article's reporting of reactions that had not taken place and said that was "not acceptable" but commented positively on the handling of the error.
It's getting a little long, but we do have eight secondary sources to support it: [50] [51] [52] [53] [54] [55] [56] [57]. Dreamyshade (talk) 21:40, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
On the talk page, Collect and I agreed on this version, with changes from "temporarily" to "prematurely" and "prepared" to "standby":
- In October 2011, MailOnline and several other newspapers prematurely published standby articles on Amanda Knox's trial reporting an upholding of the guilty verdict before the judge finished announcing the reversal of the guilty verdict. MailOnline removed the article within 90 seconds and apologized, and the error was the subject of a Press Complaints Commission complaint that noted the article's reporting of reactions that had not taken place and said that was "not acceptable" but commented positively on the handling of the error.
Jenova20, what do you think? Dreamyshade (talk) 02:54, 12 January 2013 (UTC)
I went ahead and put that proposed version into the article. It's similar to the version Jenova20 preferred above, so hopefully this resolves the dispute. Dreamyshade (talk) 09:05, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
- I can't support any version which gives the excuse of the Mail Online but doesn't mention what the controversy was - creating fictional quotes and/or making up claims of Amanda on suicide watch. These are the issues people complained about, not that the wrong article was up for 90 seconds. What is the actual point of saying there was a complaint and the mail apologised when the reader can click the reference, see it, think "oh, that's quite bad", and wonder why Wikipedia instead reports on it as though it's a department of the Mail Online? Thanks ツ Jenova20 (email) 09:40, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
- Also the 90 second part is an excuse from the Mail Online, not a definite fact. It is actually disputed by a few commentators and so its inclusion is controversial if not explained.Source 1Source 2Source 3
- And for anyone who disputes the made up quotes still:
- Prosecutors were delighted with the verdict and said that "justice has been done" although they said on a "human factor it was sad two young people would be spending years in jail"
- There's some quotes. Did they happen or were they made up? Thanks ツ Jenova20 (email) 10:05, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
- Whatculture also uses "personal blogs" per its solicitation for anyone to write for it. DigitalSpy says it was "swiftly deleted". WaPo says that an "Irish blogger" said it was online for some time - but bloggers != reliable sources. Thus you have precisely ZERO reliable sources for it being anything other than "swiftly deleted" (DigitalSpy). Thanks for showing the paucity of evidence that it was not removed swiftly. Collect (talk) 13:37, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
- OK, let's keep trying to figure out a compromise. Like I said on the talk page, the question is whether the quotes and suicide watch detail are remarkable/notable enough to qualify for weight in the article. The suicide watch detail was in the original MailOnline article, and the PCC complaint mentions it along with other details from the article, but the PCC summary and three of four articles on the complaint don't mention it, so I believe including it would be undue.
- The quotes part is disputed by the Mail, so we can't simply say "fictional quotes" - this Press Gazette article says "According to a Mail insider, the quotes from the prosecutor were obtained in advance", and this later Press Gazette article says "According to the PCC, in its defence the paper said that the quotes had been obtained from the prosecution in advance of the trial 'to be published in the event that the appeal was rejected"".
- That Washington Post source is helpful. How about "within minutes" instead of "within 90 seconds"? That's vague enough to cover both the Mail's claim and other people's claims. I also added "and quotes" since a number of the sources did comment specifically on the quotes:
- In October 2011, MailOnline and several other newspapers temporarily published prepared articles on Amanda Knox's trial reporting an upholding of the guilty verdict before the judge finished announcing the reversal of the guilty verdict. MailOnline removed the article within minutes and apologized, and the error was the subject of a Press Complaints Commission complaint that noted the article's reporting of reactions and quotes that had not taken place and said that was "not acceptable" but commented positively on the handling of the error.
- Dreamyshade (talk) 10:33, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
- The Mail Online's defence of 90 seconds is argued against by others. If we report their figure, then for balance we need that it is disputed. Here is the version as it currently stands after i added tro it and removed colourful defences of the Mail, which were just opinion, and not factual:
- In October 2011, MailOnline and several other newspapers published prepared articles on Amanda Knox's trial prematurely. The articles reported an upholding of the guilty verdict before the judge had finished announcing the reversal of the guilty verdict.[1][2][3][4] MailOnline claims to have removed the article within 90 seconds, although this is disputed by other news sources[5][6][7], and apologized, and the error was the subject of a Press Complaints Commission complaint that noted the article's reporting of events and reactions that had not taken place and said that was "not acceptable" but commented positively on the handling of the error. The article also made claims that Amanda Knox and her partner were put on suicide watch, which were false.[8][9][10][11]
- The Mail Online's defence of 90 seconds is argued against by others. If we report their figure, then for balance we need that it is disputed. Here is the version as it currently stands after i added tro it and removed colourful defences of the Mail, which were just opinion, and not factual:
- ^ "Daily Mail inquiry into 'Knox guilty' blunder". PressGazette. 4 October 2011. Retrieved 5 January 2013.
- ^ Joel Gunter (4 October 2011). "Daily Mail criticised over Amanda Knox guilty story". journalism.co.uk. Retrieved 5 January 2013.
- ^ Stuart Kemp (3 October 2011). "Amanda Knox Verdict: Daily Mail's Website Posts Wrong Decision". Hollywood Reporter. Retrieved 5 January 2013.
- ^ Greenslade, Roy (4 October 2011). "The Guardian on the false Mail Online Amanda Knox verdict". The Guardian. Retrieved 5 January 2013.
- ^ http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/blogpost/post/amanda-knox-initially-declared-guilty-by-daily-mail-the-sun/2011/10/04/gIQAXtrlKL_blog.html
- ^ http://whatculture.com/news/daily-mail-announce-amanda-knox-as-guilty-in-appeal.php
- ^ http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/media/news/a343745/daily-mail-launches-inquiry-into-guilty-amanda-knox-gaffe.html
- ^ "Mail Online censured over 'Amanda Knox guilty' story". Press Gazette. 9 December 2011. Retrieved 14 January 2013.
- ^ Rachel McAthy (12 December 2011). "PCC censures Mail Online for Knox verdict report". journalism.co.uk. Retrieved 14 January 2013.
- ^ Andrew Beaujon (10 May 2012). "Daily Mail spanked for fabricating Amanda Knox story". Poynter. Retrieved 14 January 2013.
- ^ Roy Greenslade (9 December 2011). "Daily Mail censured for fictional story about Amanda Knox verdict". Greensdale Blog. The Guardian. Retrieved 14 January 2013.
- Thanks ツ Jenova20 (email) 11:04, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
- Can you be specific about which parts you considered not supported by the sources ("just opinion, and not factual")?
- Your text of "MailOnline claims to have removed the article within 90 seconds, although this is disputed by other news sources" is less concise than saying "MailOnline removed the article within minutes", and this text needs to be concise to maintain due weight.
- Changing "prematurely published standby articles" to "published prepared articles" brings back the problems that Collect and I discussed on the talk page - see "All stories are "prepared" in some sense or another" and "use "prematurely" to indicate that the articles were released before the paper could actually know the verdict". Your edit summary said "less excuses for what it was", but the previous wording was more clear about what happened.
- Changing "reporting of reactions" to "reporting of events and reactions" is confusing to me - my intent with saying "reactions" was to cover the reported events, quotes, and other details. Maybe that's not sufficiently clear? In any case, my suggestion above is to change this to "reporting of reactions and quotes" since the sources seem to agree that the quotes were important.
- Adding "The article also made claims that Amanda Knox and her partner were put on suicide watch, which were false." puts undue weight on that detail according to my review of the sources, as I've explained above.
- Splitting the first sentence into two sentences is OK with me if other people think that makes it easier to read, although I liked the balance of having one sentence about the general situation and one sentence about the Mail-specific situation. Dreamyshade (talk) 11:34, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
- The first sentence seemed too big to comfortably read. It read like terms and conditions to me, which is why i tried to split it up and reword it. I like your "reporting of reactions and quotes" part though. Can you do a new wording below? And i considered the suicide claim significant enough to mention. It is mentioned in most sources, and even if only quoted in some, it is still one of the made up events of the case whch i included because it was part of the complaint. Thanks ツ Jenova20 (email) 12:19, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
- IOW, you wish to present a POV article here and not abide by WP:NPOV? Sorry -- you would need far more than a mere consensus for that, and you do not have anywhere near a consensus for the edits you wish. Cheers. DRN can not negate WP:NPOV ever, and it will not do so now. Collect (talk) 12:49, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
- The first sentence seemed too big to comfortably read. It read like terms and conditions to me, which is why i tried to split it up and reword it. I like your "reporting of reactions and quotes" part though. Can you do a new wording below? And i considered the suicide claim significant enough to mention. It is mentioned in most sources, and even if only quoted in some, it is still one of the made up events of the case whch i included because it was part of the complaint. Thanks ツ Jenova20 (email) 12:19, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
- I don't have a new version to offer yet - I think my latest proposal above still balances the specific concerns I've seen and the sources I've read. I agree that the sentences are a little long, but I haven't yet figured out a way to split the first one without causing even more awkwardness. Collect, any comments on the proposal from 10:33, 14 January 2013 (UTC) above? For the 90 second thing, here's the relevant part of the Washington Post column: "A spokesperson for the Daily Mail told the Press Gazette that the publication will look into the incorrect story, which they said was live for 90 seconds, though some commenters claimed it was available online for much longer." They take the other claims seriously enough to mention them, which may justify being a little vague. Dreamyshade (talk) 13:10, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
- The PCC accepted the 90 second figure. That someone uses a cached system to view an article does not bring the 90 seconds into question. On AOL, the cache was sometimes updated only after some hours, and such events should not be imputed in any way to the Mail Online. "Available online" != "not removed at the 90 second mark" if you talk to anyone in the online communication area at all. In fact, it can take Wikipedia itself more than 20 minutes to update its own caches of articles! (technical load issues are a primary cause). In short, where the MO make a statement and the PCC acceots that statement, it is UNDUE for us to use unnamed "commentators" without identifying them specifically. Cheers. - I had thought was had an agreement on the language for sure. Collect (talk) 13:28, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
- The Mail Online is not a reliable source Collect. It's not made clear if the PCC say 90 seconds, solely because that is the defense of the Mail, or if they actually investigated the time it was up. What is clear is that there are reliable sources disputing this time given by the Mail. That's controversial.
- And your message on my talk page was not appropriate. Read the sources and you'll quickly see it's all there. No one is trying to challenge NPOV, it's just a fantasy you have created. Thanks ツ Jenova20 (email) 15:28, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
- And since when can NPOV be used to remove half a debate? I notice Collect finds the Mail's claim of 90 seconds notable, but not that multiple other sources challenge that time...That's not NPOV at all...it's almost like it's a violation of NPOV...Thanks ツ Jenova20 (email) 15:38, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
- Try again -- YOU chose to use the PCC result as a source - and when one uses a source, one uses the entire source. And that particular source ... gives the 90 second claim. It is NPOV to use all of a source, it is POV to cherry-pick from the source. Do you see the difference? And I note that your "multiple sources" include one which says "swiftly" (DigitalSpy) and one which is a blog, and one which quotes an "Irish blogger". I would further note that GoogleNews etc. do not refresh their results every minute (heck, neither does Wikipedia!), and that the one DigitalSpy noted that the link from such a source led to a deadlink -- meaning that the 90 seconds used by the PCC is the only reliably sourced time we have at all. Cheers. Collect (talk) 16:09, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
- Erm, no. Read WP:Reliable and get back to us on that one Collect. It takes more than that to rule a source unreliable. Thanks ツ Jenova20 (email) 16:45, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
- I agree with Jenova, the "within 90 seconds" is the claim made only by the MailOnline, and therefore it cannot be used as a fact. Pscorp19 (talk) 16:57, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
- Do you still want to claim there are no reliable sources? Another one. That's on top of the 3 from earlier. Thanks ツ Jenova20 (email) 17:27, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
- And the PCC report still stands as the definitive report which you specifically wished to use - so we get to use all of it. That Googlenews or the like link to a story which has been removed != any value at all. They frequently take a half hour to update their links. And your prior three sources had only one RS source say a blogger reported the story was live for a short while, while DigitalSpy (RS) stated "swiftly." Your blog source of course fails WP:RS. Now is there any value at all to your tendentiousnes on this? I would note your sources make naught of the "suicide watch" claim you sought to insert, or the multitude of trivia now found in that section including In April 2012, Salon magazine reported that MailOnline overhyped a story about Egyptian necrophilia law which Al-Arabiya took from a newspaper opinion column written by a dedicated Hosni Mubarak supporter. where there is no accusation the MO did anything wrong at all. Cheers. Collect (talk) 17:54, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
- The PCC got the 90 second figure from the Mail Online using it as their defense, which is not a reliable source. To mention it, you would have to attribute it to the Mail Online directly, rather than claim it as fact. That's misrepresentation of the sources Collect. Thanks ツ Jenova20 (email) 09:48, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
- And the PCC report still stands as the definitive report which you specifically wished to use - so we get to use all of it. That Googlenews or the like link to a story which has been removed != any value at all. They frequently take a half hour to update their links. And your prior three sources had only one RS source say a blogger reported the story was live for a short while, while DigitalSpy (RS) stated "swiftly." Your blog source of course fails WP:RS. Now is there any value at all to your tendentiousnes on this? I would note your sources make naught of the "suicide watch" claim you sought to insert, or the multitude of trivia now found in that section including In April 2012, Salon magazine reported that MailOnline overhyped a story about Egyptian necrophilia law which Al-Arabiya took from a newspaper opinion column written by a dedicated Hosni Mubarak supporter. where there is no accusation the MO did anything wrong at all. Cheers. Collect (talk) 17:54, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
- Try again -- YOU chose to use the PCC result as a source - and when one uses a source, one uses the entire source. And that particular source ... gives the 90 second claim. It is NPOV to use all of a source, it is POV to cherry-pick from the source. Do you see the difference? And I note that your "multiple sources" include one which says "swiftly" (DigitalSpy) and one which is a blog, and one which quotes an "Irish blogger". I would further note that GoogleNews etc. do not refresh their results every minute (heck, neither does Wikipedia!), and that the one DigitalSpy noted that the link from such a source led to a deadlink -- meaning that the 90 seconds used by the PCC is the only reliably sourced time we have at all. Cheers. Collect (talk) 16:09, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
- And since when can NPOV be used to remove half a debate? I notice Collect finds the Mail's claim of 90 seconds notable, but not that multiple other sources challenge that time...That's not NPOV at all...it's almost like it's a violation of NPOV...Thanks ツ Jenova20 (email) 15:38, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
- The PCC accepted the 90 second figure. That someone uses a cached system to view an article does not bring the 90 seconds into question. On AOL, the cache was sometimes updated only after some hours, and such events should not be imputed in any way to the Mail Online. "Available online" != "not removed at the 90 second mark" if you talk to anyone in the online communication area at all. In fact, it can take Wikipedia itself more than 20 minutes to update its own caches of articles! (technical load issues are a primary cause). In short, where the MO make a statement and the PCC acceots that statement, it is UNDUE for us to use unnamed "commentators" without identifying them specifically. Cheers. - I had thought was had an agreement on the language for sure. Collect (talk) 13:28, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
- I don't have a new version to offer yet - I think my latest proposal above still balances the specific concerns I've seen and the sources I've read. I agree that the sentences are a little long, but I haven't yet figured out a way to split the first one without causing even more awkwardness. Collect, any comments on the proposal from 10:33, 14 January 2013 (UTC) above? For the 90 second thing, here's the relevant part of the Washington Post column: "A spokesperson for the Daily Mail told the Press Gazette that the publication will look into the incorrect story, which they said was live for 90 seconds, though some commenters claimed it was available online for much longer." They take the other claims seriously enough to mention them, which may justify being a little vague. Dreamyshade (talk) 13:10, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
I'm looking at "within 90 seconds" vs. "within minutes" as a question of finding the version that will cause less of an edit war. :) Can we take a quick survey of whether people would tolerate the article saying "within minutes"? Collect, can you provide details from the sources supporting that people's claims of longer availability (as noted in the Washington Post column) were caused by the article getting cached on other websites, so we can look at that in more detail? Dreamyshade (talk) 22:18, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
- The PCC examined just about everything - and accepted the 90 seconds figure. I can assure you that Googlenews shows links which are "dead" on a common basis, and one of the articles cited stated that they followed a link from another page and found the actual article had been removed, though not removed from the referring site. As the only sources that it was not removed are bloggers, and we do not give weight to blogger claims as a rule, I suggest we stick with the PCC findings (including the fact they praised the Mail for its quick response - which they would not have done if they thought it was less than swift action). Collect (talk) 22:34, 14 January 2013 (UTC)
- I'd prefer to say the Mail's defense of 90 seconds (making clear it's what they said and not a fact) but also making clear that others dispute this, including the Washington Post. Going with one side over the other wouldn't be fair and the 90 seconds alone is a violation of NPOV since Wikipedia would be siding with the Mail against the sources available and ignoring their argument. And Collect, i am free to change my opinion. If your only defense is that i said something before changing my mind then you need a better argument. We're trying to figure out a wording here and you're trying to be childish and create divisions and arguments. Thanks ツ Jenova20 (email) 09:28, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
- I'm kind of out of ideas here - "within minutes" seems like the best option to me, but it sounds like neither of you are willing to go with that compromise. Are any dispute resolution volunteers available to step in and help? Dreamyshade (talk) 23:58, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
- We shouldn't try and place a specific time since both sides dispute it. We just need what the Mail said, and what the other side counter with. That's balanced, that's neutral. Picking a side isn't. Collect removes all reference to the controversy every time and so we're left with the highly POV piece we currently have which praises the Mail Online. Thanks ツ Jenova20 (email) 09:21, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
- The discussion above belies your claims about my edits. I suggest you read WP:AGF and WP:NPA and decide on your own to abide thereon. And that you find WP:NPOV to be a problem with your edits, I suggest you have a cup of tea and abide by that policy as well. Your sources say only that blofggers said it was available for a half hour. The MO, and the PCC agree on the 90 seconds. I would point out that removing an article at the 90 second mark does not remove it from the Googlenews cache, or the AOL cache instantly. Heck, an edit changed in 90 seconds on Wikipedia may show up in caches for days if that is when the crawlers hit the article. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:15, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
- Please highlight the personal attack as i can't see it. I can see comments on your edits, but nothing attacking you. Just another misleading claim to distract from the issue we're all here for. Thanks ツ Jenova20 (email) 14:07, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
- imediaethics.org "Seattle Weekly stated the article was up for about thirty minutes"
- Washington Post "live for 90 seconds, though some commenters claimed it was available online for much longer"
- Whatculture "The article, which appeared online at 8.50pm UK time and was still available 25 minutes later,"
- That's what i pulled up on it, no blogs, no mention of bloggers. Thanks ツ Jenova20 (email) 14:22, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
- And see [58] wherein it solicits folks to blog on any topic on that site. Currently all contributor positions on WhatCulture are unpaid, Your articles have the potential to be read by hundreds of thousands of people, Whether you are a brand new contributor with no previous articles published or someone who has published over 1,000 articles, you have the same chance of having your content featured on the homepage., In the Summer of 2011, after winning the Sky Movies Blog of the Year award, the site evolved into WhatCulture and now covers a huge range of topics. Now tell me it is not a blog when it was named Blog of the Year. Cheers. Collect (talk) 14:48, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
- The actual Seattle Mail article is at [59] and is identified as a blog - which is ok for a fact-checked newspaper. Most news outlets had two versions of the same story ready to run - one if Knox was acquitted, and the other if her appeal was rejected. The Daily Mail ran both. And Jonathan Walczak produced all of two blog entries for all of 2012. Not a regular contributor to a newspaper which fact chacks his blog entries. Newspaper blogs are allowed as sources if and only if they represent material under regular editorial control of the newspaper (These may be acceptable sources if the writers are professionals but use them with caution because the blog may not be subject to the news organization's normal fact checking process). His own SPS site calls him an "award winning journalist" and lists no awards <g>. He has zero apparent notability as a "journalist" and I find zer awards, and the "Seattle Weekly" does not call him a staff member. What I do find is two blog posts in all of 2012. Sorry folks - the word "blog" is absolutely suited for his post. Clear enough? Collect (talk) 15:03, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
- I've not found better sources so i'll drop that obstacle. We still need to do something about your version though, which i find highly POV for praising the Mail. Thanks ツ Jenova20 (email) 09:48, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
- The PCC was the group that "praised" the Mail -- we do not remove praise from a governing agency because we think it unmerited. Nor is reporting an official opinion "POV" in such a case. Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:08, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
- Erm, when you change a negative event for a news source, which was roundly criticised by many into a positive praising for that news source, then it is highly POV. That's exactly what it currently is and you urgently need to study WP:NPOV. Thanks ツ Jenova20 (email) 13:14, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
- The PCC was the group that "praised" the Mail -- we do not remove praise from a governing agency because we think it unmerited. Nor is reporting an official opinion "POV" in such a case. Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:08, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
- I've not found better sources so i'll drop that obstacle. We still need to do something about your version though, which i find highly POV for praising the Mail. Thanks ツ Jenova20 (email) 09:48, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
- Please highlight the personal attack as i can't see it. I can see comments on your edits, but nothing attacking you. Just another misleading claim to distract from the issue we're all here for. Thanks ツ Jenova20 (email) 14:07, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
- The discussion above belies your claims about my edits. I suggest you read WP:AGF and WP:NPA and decide on your own to abide thereon. And that you find WP:NPOV to be a problem with your edits, I suggest you have a cup of tea and abide by that policy as well. Your sources say only that blofggers said it was available for a half hour. The MO, and the PCC agree on the 90 seconds. I would point out that removing an article at the 90 second mark does not remove it from the Googlenews cache, or the AOL cache instantly. Heck, an edit changed in 90 seconds on Wikipedia may show up in caches for days if that is when the crawlers hit the article. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:15, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
- We shouldn't try and place a specific time since both sides dispute it. We just need what the Mail said, and what the other side counter with. That's balanced, that's neutral. Picking a side isn't. Collect removes all reference to the controversy every time and so we're left with the highly POV piece we currently have which praises the Mail Online. Thanks ツ Jenova20 (email) 09:21, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
- I'm kind of out of ideas here - "within minutes" seems like the best option to me, but it sounds like neither of you are willing to go with that compromise. Are any dispute resolution volunteers available to step in and help? Dreamyshade (talk) 23:58, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
Jenova20, can you be more specific about which parts you still find problematically POV, ideally providing sources showing that the phrasing is unbalanced, so that we can inspect it more carefully and make progress? Dreamyshade (talk) 06:52, 21 January 2013 (UTC)
- It's a POV piece. I still find the original wording more neutral as:
- In October 2011, MailOnline and several other newspapers temporarily published prepared articles on Amanda Knox's trial reporting an upholding of the guilty verdict before the judge finished announcing the reversal of the guilty verdict. Mail Online stated that the article was removed within 90 seconds and they apologized, and the error was the subject of a Press Complaints Commission complaint that noted the article's reporting of fictional quotes and reactions that had not taken place and said that was "not acceptable".
- Obviously i've added a bit before the 90 seconds part to clarify that it is a claim, not a fact and not in Wikipedia's voice. Thanks ツ Jenova20 (email) 09:53, 22 January 2013 (UTC)
- Here's the current version again for easier comparison:
- In October 2011, MailOnline and several other newspapers prematurely published standby articles on Amanda Knox's trial reporting an upholding of the guilty verdict before the judge finished announcing the reversal of the guilty verdict. MailOnline removed the article within 90 seconds and apologized, and the error was the subject of a Press Complaints Commission complaint that noted the article's reporting of reactions that had not taken place and said that was "not acceptable" but commented positively on the handling of the error.
- I'm OK with changing "removed the article within 90 seconds" to "stated that the article was removed within 90 seconds" - the new wording is not too lengthy or contentious. I'm not sure about entirely removing "but commented positively on the handling of the error" - saying that helps provide balanced coverage of the PCC's statement. Another option would be to cut out the whole last part of the sentence in order to not specifically cover the negative or positive comments in the report (cutting out "and said that was "not acceptable" but commented positively on the handling of the error"). Dreamyshade (talk) 01:16, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
- I would agree with either of those (removing the PCC's criticism and praise, or including both and clearly showing that it's their opinion not fact). If we're going to include their opinion on the MailOnline's actions at all, we should have it all. Jenova, Collect, what do you think? CarrieVS (talk) 15:23, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
- Here's the current version again for easier comparison:
- In October 2011, MailOnline and several other news sources published prepared articles on Amanda Knox's trial prematurely. The articles reported an upholding of the guilty verdict before the judge had finished announcing the reversal of the guilty verdict.[1][2][3][4] Mail Online state the article was removed within 90 seconds and apologized. The article became the subject of a Press Complaints Commission complaint that noted the article's reporting of events and reactions that had not taken place and said that was "not acceptable" but commented positively on the handling of the error. The article also made claims that Amanda Knox and her partner were put on suicide watch, which were false.[5][6][7][8]
- ^ "Daily Mail inquiry into 'Knox guilty' blunder". PressGazette. 4 October 2011. Retrieved 5 January 2013.
- ^ Joel Gunter (4 October 2011). "Daily Mail criticised over Amanda Knox guilty story". journalism.co.uk. Retrieved 5 January 2013.
- ^ Stuart Kemp (3 October 2011). "Amanda Knox Verdict: Daily Mail's Website Posts Wrong Decision". Hollywood Reporter. Retrieved 5 January 2013.
- ^ Greenslade, Roy (4 October 2011). "The Guardian on the false Mail Online Amanda Knox verdict". The Guardian. Retrieved 5 January 2013.
- ^ "Mail Online censured over 'Amanda Knox guilty' story". Press Gazette. 9 December 2011. Retrieved 14 January 2013.
- ^ Rachel McAthy (12 December 2011). "PCC censures Mail Online for Knox verdict report". journalism.co.uk. Retrieved 14 January 2013.
- ^ Andrew Beaujon (10 May 2012). "Daily Mail spanked for fabricating Amanda Knox story". Poynter. Retrieved 14 January 2013.
- ^ Roy Greenslade (9 December 2011). "Daily Mail censured for fictional story about Amanda Knox verdict". Greensdale Blog. The Guardian. Retrieved 14 January 2013.
- First sentence changed since no newspapers were involved as far as i'm aware. And the notable claims of the event added. What's your opinions? Thanks ツ Jenova20 (email) 15:47, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks for working on a modified proposal. Changing "newspapers" to "news sources" is reasonable. I don't think it's helpful for clarity to change "standby" to "prepared" or move "prematurely" to the end of the sentence - note the comment I quoted about "standby" vs "prepared" at 11:34, 14 January 2013 (UTC): ("All stories are "prepared" in some sense or another"). I'm slightly not in favor of splitting up the sentences, but I don't feel strongly about that since it's just a style thing and not a content issue. Regarding the suicide watch detail, I'd like to repeat what I said above at 10:33, 14 January 2013 (UTC): "The suicide watch detail was in the original MailOnline article, and the PCC complaint mentions it along with other details from the article, but the PCC summary and three of four articles on the complaint don't mention it, so I believe including it would be undue." Dreamyshade (talk) 20:56, 23 January 2013 (UTC)
- Hi all. This discussion seems it's progessing well without volunteer input. Would it be alright if we closed off the discussion here and for it to continue on the article talk page? Steven Zhang Help resolve disputes! 10:51, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
- I'm OK with that. Ideally we could just close this up here with the addition of a couple more neutral opinions on the wording like CarrieVS provided above, since otherwise it might drag on for even longer on the talk page, but dragging on isn't too big of a deal. Jenova20, Collect - what do you think? Dreamyshade (talk) 21:05, 25 January 2013 (UTC)
– General close. See comments for reasoning.
| Closed discussion | ||||
|---|---|---|---|---|
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute
Users involved Dispute overview On the English Wikipedia page of the very important composer "Liana Alexandra", the relevant links of the prestigious "Vox Novus" (New York City) Composers organization [1] have been removed abusively by the [irrelevant reference removed] user "Biruitorul" . The composer Liana Alexandra is one of the notable members of "Vox Novus". Have you tried to resolve this previously? Edit request How do you think we can help? blocking "Biruitorul"
Fifth, a "very important composer" is Beethoven, Verdi or Tchaikovsky, not some relatively obscure dilettante, although I grant she is notable under our policies. And sixth, this specific matter has not first been addressed at Talk:Liana Alexandra. Now, to the substantive portion. This is not a reliable source. It's self-published. And as for this,
is also not a reliable source, to my eyes. It's a memorial page for a paid member of a professional organization hosted by said organization. If a third party decides this should be kept in, I won't press the point. But really, let's not lose our heads here. - Biruitorul Talk 15:31, 26 January 2013 (UTC) New York (USA) , Bucharest (Romania) discussionFor convenience, I've added in links to the page and the other user in question - for future reference, 'location of dispute' means the page where disputed edits/content are, and the other user(s) involved in the dispute should be listed. I have also notified user:Biruitorul of this discussion. CarrieVS (talk) 13:02, 26 January 2013 (UTC) Now that everyone's commented, I have a couple of questions.
Secondly, I want to remind everyone of some ground rules:
CarrieVS (talk) 15:48, 26 January 2013 (UTC)
|
