- List of mass shootings in Australia (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (restore)
This page was deleted due to it being created by a sockpuppet account even though it contained adequate and relevant citations. In addition it also had other contributors to the article besides the sockpuppet. Two articles created by the sockpuppet are allowed to stay up and were not removed, so why was this one? The two articles in question: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_Kingdom & https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_Switzerland. Abatementyogin (talk) 23:45, 27 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - The United Kingdom article has had non-trivial edits made by editors in good standing. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:11, 28 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse aside from the creator the only edits were by an IP who may well be another sockpuppet, and in any case all that IP did was add a few categories. (Plus the person who tagged it for deletion under G5, but that hardly counts.) G5 only applies if there were no substantial edits by others, which I suspect is why the other two pages haven't been deleted. The banning policy makes clear that bans apply to all editing, good or bad. If someone has been banned then we've decided that the downsides of having them here outweigh the benefits of their edits. Hut 8.5 08:53, 28 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Please read WP:REVERTBAN:
This does not mean that edits must be reverted just because they were made by a banned editor... changes that are obviously helpful, such as fixing typos or undoing vandalism, can be allowed to stand . Abatementyogin (and I) find this page useful. Why? I Ask (talk) 16:22, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Hut 8.5, about your reference to WP:BMB and the bit that
bans apply to all editing, good or bad . With a quick reminder to casual readers that bans are different from blocks, was this article a violation of a ban? I haven't looked at all the sockpuppets, but as far as I can see from the original account's talk page, they were topic banned from topics to do with US politics, and the list of Australian shootings doesn't fall under the scope of that. Is there anything I'm missing? – Uanfala (talk) 01:13, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- If nothing else the user is clearly banned under WP:THREESTRIKES, given the enormous number of confirmed sockpuppets. Hut 8.5 08:51, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse deletion as deletion process has been followed correctly. Stifle (talk) 10:10, 28 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse correct application of G5. No prejudice against recreation by any user in good standing. Frank Anchor 16:26, 28 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse per what I learned about this deletion from Hut 8.5. Seems like a normal G5. —Alalch E. 19:44, 28 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn: I urge editors to use some WP:COMMONSENSE when looking at edits by blocked users. Assuming that the page was well sourced and had no other problems, it should be allowed to stay. The rationalization that edits should be removed even if they were good is unhelpful to building a better encyclopedia. (Why waste editor time building it up to the exact same page?) You could say that it prevents users from risking sockpuppetry knowing that their revisions will be reverted and deleted, but we have other outlets to punish them. The topic is notable and was (presumably) sourced. If a user outside of the sock opposes G5, it should almost always stay before an actual AfD. Also, the ban policy only refers that people that are banned should not edit (whether good or bad). It doesn't say that their edits, if found useful, should still be automatically overturned. Why? I Ask (talk) 16:12, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- The ban policy does cover enforcement including what can be done with edits: Wikipedia:Banning_policy#Edits_by_and_on_behalf_of_banned_editors --81.100.164.154 (talk) 19:21, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- No, the policy explicitly says that you can keep good edits. This is (from what I know) a good edit. Why? I Ask (talk) 19:43, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- And I haven't suggested that it does state they must, regardless my comment was in response to your claim "Also, the ban policy only refers that people that are banned should not edit (whether good or bad)", when clearly it does cover removing edits done in contravention of that. --81.100.164.154 (talk) 22:10, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- You can remove those edits. It doesn't say you have to remove those edits (and edits include page creation). This is what I said in my comment in the next sentence; there is no provision to automatically overturn their edits. It seems everyone here agrees that this is a suitable topic and there is no prejudice against recreation. Why add a middle man and not just restore the article? There is no policy reason not to, which some editors think there is. Why? I Ask (talk) 22:36, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- For the record, all the substantive content was added by the now-blocked sockpuppet. Other than the creation and the G5 tagging, the only other edits were an IP editor adding categories. If anyone wants to re-create this independently, they should do so. I'll happily send the sources to anyone who asks. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:20, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- If one (a good-standing editor) was to get a copy of the deleted page and recreate it using that, that would be totally allowed, right? If so, I'd do it. It just seems absolutely silly to do that rather than just saying we should still keep it and restore it that way. Why? I Ask (talk) 22:25, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- No, that would be a copyright violation. And proxying. And generally a bad idea. But if you took the sources from this article and did your own research and produced a new article not tainted by sockpuppetry, that would be allowed. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 22:38, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- If copyright is an issue, then just restore the article for the article history. There's nothing that says that sockpuppet edits have to be removed. Also how much copyright is there in this case? There's also little prose, so aside from the lede and descriptions, I should be able to still copy-paste the actual list (since numbers/dates and tables are not copyrightable). Also, it is absolutely not proxying. Please learn what that actually is. Why? I Ask (talk) 22:46, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse. I am personally opposed to removing constructive work of sock puppets, however the consensus-supported policy of G5 says delete any sock puppet work should be deleted. {{ping|ClydeFranklin}} (t/c) 23:15, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- No, I have already demonstrated above that consensus-supported policy actually says the opposite. Why? I Ask (talk) 23:16, 1 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- What that policy says is that no human is obligated to blindly revert all edits of a sockpuppet, not that if some human decides doing so is worth their time that their action can be challenged. It's a trivial result of WP:NOTCOMPULSORY, not a counter to the way G5 works. Endorse * Pppery * it has begun... 00:22, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- @Pppery: The text states
changes that are obviously helpful ... are allowed to stay. A decently sourced article is helpful. Your reading of it referring to WP:NOTCOMPULSORY is a completely made up interpretation. Why? I Ask (talk) 00:28, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- It actually says that
changes that are obviously helpful [...] can be allowed to stand . There's no must there, and it was entirely consistent with policy for Liz and whoever CSD tagged this to decide, without further reason, that this article should not be allowed to stand, even if they thought it was obviously helpful . It would also have been entirely consistent with policy for her to rely on that clause to decline to action the CSD, but that's not the choice she made, and DRV has no jurisdiction to force her to make a different one. * Pppery * it has begun... 00:33, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- I am not opposing that G5 was applied correctly. I'm saying that because an uninvolved editor wants it back, it should be restored because we all agree it is a suitable page. And I never said it must stand. Where'd you get that? I said it is allowed to stand if there is consensus that it is a helpful edit (which I am not seeing any detractors in that case). Deletion review is here to decide if there are policy-based reasons to overturn a page deletion, and there is a reason simply by me wanting it back per WP:PROXYING. Why? I Ask (talk) 01:23, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse in regards to it being a proper use of G5, but if an editor in good standing requests the undeletion of an article per G5, it should be done, as they are vouching and taking responsibility for the content. This is already allowed in the first place. Meaning this Deletion Review is unnecessary. SilverserenC 00:37, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn. The G5 deletion of this page was perfectly appropriate, but what was not appropriate was the deleting admin's refusal to restore the article once a good faith editor had requested it. The policy has already been quoted above, but the ensuing !votes suggest this needs to be repeated:
This does not mean that edits must be reverted just because they were made by a banned editor [..,] but the presumption in ambiguous cases should be to revert. Guys, it can't get any more explicit than that. I find it bizarre that several experienced editors and admins could get something like that wrong. If an editor restores a sock edit and vouches for it, you let that be: it would be silly to edit-war to re-revert it. It's similarly strange to stop people from having the page restored. There can be two situations where it would make sense to have such reservations: either if the creator was known for misrepresentation of sources, or if they were so pernicious to the community that we would be willing to sacrifice content just so that they'd be as disincetivised to come back as possible. After a quick glance at the sockmaster's talk page and at the SPI archive, I don't see indications that either of these apply. If there are any concerns about their content at all, then the article can be restored as a draft and moved to mainspace only after review. – Uanfala (talk) 01:13, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse G5 is G5 for a reason. While I appreciate the enthusiasm of those who want to keep "good" edits by bad users, all the experienced users commenting here have scars to prove that there is no such thing. Jclemens (talk) 01:24, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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- Nice opposition citing policy! Oh wait... Sorry, but the "scars" of "experienced users" is not a policy. (And heavy shame on you for trying to argue that several members here are unexperienced. Also, weren't you the one that tried to argue against me that I wasn't following policy to the letter in a few earlier discussions? How ironic...) Why? I Ask (talk) 01:29, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Look, if you want to discuss policy, 1) Learn the difference between a statement and an argument, as well as the logical fallacy that would have been a better target for your retort, and 2) Policy need not be wikilinked to be present implicitly, and 3) conflating discussions will fall somewhere between WP:WAX and WP:NPA, and I don't recall ever seeing such an argument be effective.
- Sorry, but your endorsement is a pretty thinly veiled attempt to discredit those that disagree with you. (And wrong too, as I've dealt with reporting and sniffing out socks before.) What policy is implicitly implied? The policy I've cited for you pretty explicitly states that there are good edits by bad users. Why? I Ask (talk) 09:14, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse as s clear-cut G5 deletion. It would be helpful if Why? I Ask would refrain for bludgeoning the discussion; it would also be helpful if they didn't try to do an end run around the DRV by asking an admin to restore the article while this discussion is underway. -- Ponyobons mots 22:30, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- I am allowed to ask an administrator for a WP:REFUND, and they told me elsewhere they are often willing when given a reason. The correct application of G5 does not matter in that case. Was G5 applied correctly to the page? Absolutely! Does G5 mean that the page is refused restoration on request? Nope, not at all. Two other editors have already pointed that out. However, some administrators are willing to and some administrators are not (purely due to a belief in punishing and preventing socks). Thus, it is currently up to the whim of the administrator's personal philosophy to restore it. That is not fair to editors with different beliefs (especially if the content is fine). Why? I Ask (talk) 22:43, 2 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse Perfectly valid G5. Galobtter (pingó mió) 11:10, 3 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Question - Is this an appeal to overturn the G5, or a request to refund the deleted article? Robert McClenon (talk) 00:08, 5 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse if this is an appeal to overturn the G5, based on the comments of the administrators who have seen the history and concur that this was a valid G5. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:08, 5 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Allow restoration of the deleted article to a good-standing user so that they can recreate it as an article with a good-standing history. That doesn't require overturning a G5. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:08, 5 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment This is a useful discussion to read over because I semi-regularly get editors coming to my talk page asking for restoration of an article that is the result of a CSD G5 criteria deletion. I've been told that restoration is "possible" (not mandatory but possible), if the editor making the request agrees to "take responsibility for the article". But what does "taking responsibility for an article created by a sockpuppet" mean in terms of how admins handle these requests? I don't think this "taking responsibility" exception can be found anywhere on policy pages but has just emerged from admin practice of handling requests like this.
- The only thing I'm sure about here is that there is no agreement on this question among admins and except for admins who adhere to a strict "No, never, ever" policy, I think whether a request is granted can depend on what the article is (is it just a redirect, for example?) and who is making the request (experienced article writer vs. new editor). I considered offering the OP the references to this article but it was a list article and each item on the list had a separate citation so it was not possible to provide a few references and recreate this article...each event listed had its own citation. It's generous that HJ Mitchell has agreed to go through the deleted article and supply all this.
- I see two things being discussed here though and that is a) whether my CSD G5 deletion was valid and b) whether articles deleted by CSD G5 can ever be restored. The second question is a worth-while conversation to have but I think it is better to have it take place on WT:CSD than deletion review. I know I'd participate in that discussion. Liz Read! Talk! 23:29, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
- @Liz: See Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#RfC: Should WP:REFUND allow for articles deleted through the CSD criteria of A7, A9, A11, G5 to be userfied or restored as drafts? and the earlier discussions. There are a lot of editors advocating that G5 pages should stay deleted, always. However, this seems to conflict with what WP:BANREVERT. Either all edits by banned users need to be reverted or editors are allowed to advocate for banned users edits (including deleted pages). It seems strange to deny this page while two others created by the sock with the same scope are allowed up. The User already has had their edits kept (even one at an AfD). It seems weird not to allow this one too. Why? I Ask (talk) 23:57, 6 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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