Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/Archive 43 - Wikipedia
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Dispute resolved successfully. See comments for reasoning.
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview Trying to get a more balanced and evidence based, rather than emotional content on the article page. Encountering significant resistance from a couple of editors who seem to have a lot more experience than me on the page and seem to be running a negatively biased agenda against the product. I have presnted several resounces (peer reviewed scientific studies) and federal trade commission resolutions that directly contradict specific statements on the article page, but an comments or requests for rational discourse end in derision, flat out refusal or accuse me of having a pro-Monavie agenda when the real bias is actually the opposite. Would like to find someone with whom we can discuss this rationally, or I fe.ar the only other alternative would be to request the page be dropped, which would be a shame if it is solely because of a couple of editor's negative bias on this issue. Have you tried to resolve this previously? Have tried to have rational fact-based discussions on talk page. Called, talked with a senior editor and e-mailed evidence that page was inaccurate and heavily biased. How do you think we can help? I do not know. I am new to Wikipedia. But I am also an Actuary, and very familiar with the subject. I would think Wikipedia would want its own guidelines to be followed regarding bias and personal soapboxes. The agenda here seems to be strongly biased against Monavie, nutritional science or anyone who has an opinion contrary to the editor. When faced with reasonable discourse the response seems to be to use abusive language, say no, or accuse the responder with having a pro MonaVie agenda. Opening comments by Rhode Island RedI think that the trigger on DR was pulled too early in this case, as I did not yet even have the chance to respond to Tony's latest comment (just posted today in fact) on the article Talk page and was in fact in the process of doing so when I received a notice regarding the DR request. It's not even clear to me why I was included on the DR because, although I'm a contributor to the article, I had not made a single comment on the thread Tony started to air his grievances nor was I responsible for writing the text in question. Tony initially expressed some very focused concerns about specific content in the article related to polyphenols, which was being actively discussed. Now Tony has broadened this into a more general unfocused indictment that seems to suggest that the entire article is biased. Not only do I not agree, but I see this as avoidance of engaging in discussion about the issues on the talk page. If Tony has issues with any of the content beyond that dealing with polyphenols, this is the first we've heard about it, and it should have been presented on the talk page first. DR should only be used when the Talk page fails to resolve an issue. I have just now added my comment to the article Talk page[1] regarding the issue Tony raised about polyphenols and I think we should keep the discussion focused on that, at least for now, instead of subverting the talk page and launching on a tail-chasing exercise. Rhode Island Red (talk) 17:08, 18 August 2012 (UTC) Opening comments by Andy the GrumpI can see no point in continuing this procedure until we get a statement from User:Tonyhammond regarding any possible relationship with MonaVie, as would be required under Wikipedia:Conflict of interest policy. I note that Tonyhammond's only edits to Wikipedia have been on the MonaVie talk page [2]. Please note that apart from his first post which called for the deletion of the article [3], and a brief attempt to get the lede revised to remove sourced material relating to the blindingly-obvious resemblance of MonaVie's business practices to a pyramid scheme, Tonyhammond's sole efforts have been engaged in requesting that we contravene WP:MEDRS policy and revise content to imply that this overpriced fruit juice has health benefits - something for which needless to say, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration has brought action against MonaVie for in the past. There is no scientific whatsoever to support claims that MonaVie products have significant health benefits (unsurprising, since the company doesn't actually tell its customers how much of the supposedly-beneficial substances there actually is in their products), and quite sufficient evidence to demonstrate that were the claims regarding the supposed benefits of these substances proven, they could be obtained much more cheaply without getting involved in complex multi-level marketing schemes. Wikipedia isn't here to promote such dubious business practices, and neither is it here to mislead our readers regarding the supposed benefits of products touted by such businesses. If they want free advertising, they should seek it elsewhere - and I suggest that they ensure they comply with FDA requirements in doing so. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:13, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
I'll start by saying I am new to Wikipedia and may not be up on all the appropriate processes as I am learning here. I do appreciate Wikipedia and have always valued it as a source of balanced, accurate information in other areas. I believe the one reference above that is unsigned may have been from me when I didn't realize I was not logged in at one point. My only hope here is that we can comply with the basic principles of the Wikipedia articles for a balanced, neutral presentation on this topic. As a professional and an Actuary, I am very familiar with the scientific process, very experienced in this area, and follow a code of ethics that requires me to meet a higher standard of fact-finding and truth than just citing newspaper articles with people's opinions that are not evidence-based. I would like to get more references to clinical research and the findings of the FTC than the opinions of people opposed to Monavie, multi-level marketing or whatever other agenda they are promoting. Either that, or fall back on the adage to "first do no harm." The article as it currently stands is not neutral--by WP standards--appears to be someone's soapbox to discredit a nutritional product that in it's simplest form is just fruit juice. If we want to say that it is just fruit juice, we should say that. But instead there seems to be a lot of anti-Monavie, anti-nutrition, old "facts," and character, company and product assasination occurring in the article and a reluctance to consider any evidence to the contrary. Would simply like to see some reasoned discourse prevailing here, not closed minds and opinions. Either that, or, "do no harm" by removing the article until cooler, more rational heads can prevail. Tonyhammond (talk) 13:44, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
Tonyhammond (talk) 04:07, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
I've been monitoring this article for neutrality since the last time MonaVie tried to whitewash it. I've been watching from the sidelines, but haven't played a role in writing its content. My position is that any health claims about the product be well-sourced (WP:MEDRS is a good standard) and that the text not extrapolate a conclusion beyond what reliable sources support. Specifically, we oughtn't stretch a study about some nutrient into a conclusion about the health benefits of a juice (allegedly) containing that nutrient. Usually MonaVie's promoters are the worst abusers of the science, but in fairness to Tony, the same high standards should be applied whether the text mentions positive or negative health effects of the juices. Kilopi (talk) 21:27, 18 August 2012 (UTC) The US FDA already complained to Mona vie for claiming that their product had health benefits[5]. In 2008 the FDA said you can't market polyphenols as an antioxidant because it's not proven scientifically in humans in vivo [6]. In Talk:MonaVie#Antioxidant_effect_of_polyphenols_and_natural_phenols, Rhode Island makes RS-based arguments about why the changes proposed by Tom would make the article much less accurate. And Mona vie is not marketed as "just fruit juice", Mona vie claims that the fruits included in the beverage are in the proportions ideal for nutrition purposes, for example[7] (click on "fruit blends"). And some of its products are more than "just fruit juice", they include special compounds developed and trademarked by Mona vie, for example "We isolated, standardized, and combined this novel compound with other powerful polyphenols to create Enlivenox®, which boasts 10 times the polyphenolic power of traditional açai.(click on "açavie" in the last link). P.S.: Wikipedia is not biased against Mona vie. Wikipedia relies in mainstream reliable sources, and those sources say that polyphenols in food are not proven to have effects on humans. So, wikipedia ends up saying that Mona vie does not work. I suggest that you convince the FDA about the virtues of your product, and that you get the FDA to say in their website that polyphenols in food are beneficial for humans. --Enric Naval (talk) 21:04, 18 August 2012 (UTC) P.S.S.: I think that Tom wants to cite more clinical studies (primary sources), in order to disproof the conclusions of the FDA and other sources (secondary sources). Tom, if you read WP:MEDREV, you will that this is discouraged in wikipedia. --Enric Naval (talk) 22:30, 18 August 2012 (UTC) Monavie article and talk page discussionPlease do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary. Rhode Island Red has been notified about this thread as the bot would not. We should wait for his response before opening for discussion. Remember that this is a noticeboard about content disputes, and not conduct disputes. Go to WP:COIN about COI. As a DRN volunteer, ~~Ebe123~~ → report 16:13, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
Responding to Tony's comment about neutrality: Although maintaining a neutral point of view is important on Wikipedia, so is accurately representing the scientific and academic consensus on a subject. While there may be many point of views on a subject, each POV must be given its due weight based on the viewpoints of academics.--SGCM (talk) 01:53, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
Responding to comment that DR trigger may have been pulled too early...you may be correct. Again, maybe I am showing my newness to WP again. I was not sure where to turn, however, when one editor in particular was being abusive in both tone and language. I did not think that was appropriate or consistent with WP guidelines. As I have always said, I am happy to keep discussions going as long as we can do so cooly and rationally. As for the comments about other biases in the article. I had mentioned the pyramid scheme comment previously. The other comments, you are correct, were not made on the talk page. That was presented in another forum/process. Again, maybe because I am still learning WP, I am not yet sure where to raise those issues other than the talk page. Any guidance you want to share would be appreciated.Tonyhammond (talk) 04:16, 20 August 2012 (UTC) Tony and 96 IP': Reading this for the first time and from a relatively uninvolved viewpoint I have some direct questions I'd like to put to you.
I think once these issues are clarified we'll have a better understanding of how to evaluate the conesensus about these benefits. Hasteur (talk) 16:30, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
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– General close. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by Plateau99 on 10.27 21 August 2012 (UTC).
This particular dispute was ended at the moment Plateau99 (who was the only member of one side of this dispute) was blocked from editing. Any related discussion may become a dispute on its own, but it would be another dispute, and another DRN case if needed. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 21:32, 21 August 2012 (UTC) |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview The zoophilia and the law article has been drastically altered since August 18th (because of the belief that there was "POV" in it). This article should be returned to the way it was on August 18th. There were some citation problems, but the solution is not to erase all of the information at once. The solution is to find sources that match the sentences. The current version of the article is too anti-zoosexual. Also, the recent edits to the article are themselves POV (an attempt to make the article more anti-zoosexual). All attempts to restore the article to its previous state have failed because people keep reverting. I believe that if I continue to try and restore the article, I will just get into more edit wars. I have had discussions with User:Someone963852 in the past and they have gone nowhere. Plateau99 (talk) 00:38, 21 August 2012 (UTC) Have you tried to resolve this previously? Yes, it has failed. How do you think we can help? Restore the article back to the way it was on August 18, 2012. I have tried to step in here a number of times but so far it has done nothing. (1; 2; 3) Since he came back in 2010, Plateau has been a SPA on the topic of zoophilia (contribs) arguing that zoophilia is a legitimate sexual orientation (Diff 1; Diff 2). Someone963852 on the other hand, seems to edit on a variety of topics (contribs) and does not seem to have a POV on the topic and is trying to move the subject closer to NPOV (diff 3; diff 4). Much like Someone963852, the two others cited here have only been working towards NPOV (diff 4; diff 5) There is little reason to suspect that the DRN can have an effect here except act as a card punched on the way to arbcom or AN/I. The only thing I can think will help here is a topic ban or an indef block and the DRN can't help there. --Guerillero | My Talk 01:18, 21 August 2012 (UTC) To get to the heart of the issue here, it seems like Plateau99 is here to push a POV rather than to build an encyclopedia. I think that the amount of edit-warring blocks is evidence of this, also his statement that "The solution is to find sources that match the sentences" (of his version) is very telling. Disregarding the subject of his POV, advancing an agenda on-wiki is not Ok. I would like to think that a final warning would be effective here, but given the amount of time this has been going on, I am inclined to agree with Guerillero's sentiment in his last sentence. Mark Arsten (talk) 01:51, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
DiscussionI'm unfamiliar with this incident and really don't have strong opinions in either way. Since we've had two administrators respond, I'll that into consideration, but as DRN is largely toothless, I would hate to consider this a step or 'punch-card' for the road to arbcom. I'm going to do everything I can to end the problem here before the drastic approaches are required. In doing so, I'm going to opt for a streamlined process. Give me a few moments to read the materials and the article in question. To assess the nature of the edits. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:06, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
Legal context'Laws on bestiality tend to be shaped by animal welfare concerns, moral views and cultural beliefs. Animal welfare bodies usually, but not always, view zoophilia as a matter of animal abuse.' - This section needs to be expanded, I'd like to see this eventually moved to Background and changed a better title to deal with the 'Society' aspect which is key to shaping views and thus laws. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:24, 21 August 2012 (UTC) Recent legislationThis section should be expanded to a world view matter or fixed to address legislation that will appear in the tables below it. I'd probably detail the history of legislation rather than just 'recent' legislation. That way it can be defined by region and show the evolution of the laws. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:27, 21 August 2012 (UTC) BackgroundMuch of this is too vague, this should be the major focus that ties in from the Zoophilia article to focus SPECIFICALLY on the laws. This is key to tying the ideas to citations and setting up the flow of the article in an objective way. I'd avoid citing cases here unless they show a landmark case which results in major national changes. This section should lay out the ideas and views, of both sides, without attacks on one another. Even though the society focus on zoophilia is negative, discussing the matter neutrally is important and from a removed point of interest. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:30, 21 August 2012 (UTC) Common reasons given for lawsI do not like the title of this section. But it should be broken into Religious concerns (by religion) and abuse or disease concerns, notable cases which pushed lawmakers would apply here as well. Reasons for the laws, should be easy to source, as just about every religion makes a point about this, and every nation keeps it laws 'in the know' for these things. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:37, 21 August 2012 (UTC) Laws against zoophiliaNeeds to be renamed 'National Laws on Zoophilia' or something to that effect. Needs an image. Hidden list should contain links to EVERY nation or state which has a law that is displayed on the image. The pornography laws section should be held to this standard as well. Notable casesWikipedia articles only please. As of this time, looks like only one applies. I think we can agree on this? ChrisGualtieri (talk) 05:46, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
Case statusStatus query: Does this case need to stay open? Plateau99 has been indef blocked and Chris' appeal for a limited unblock has not been granted. Chris is now trying to rehabilitate Plateau99 by getting Plateau99 to edit in a reasonable fashion on Plateau99's user talk page. That's well and good, but since blocked users are not supposed to be able to edit, and any edits they do make are to be removed regardless of how legitimate those edits might otherwise be, having Plateau99 prove there that he can edit reasonably is one thing, but having him do so for purposes of contributing to the article is entirely another. It would, therefore, seem to me that for so long as Plateau99 remains indef blocked that there is no longer any dispute to consider here unless there is a dispute between the other involved editors. I don't think that's the case and that, instead, that this is turning into a discussion of how best to edit the article. If that's correct then this ought to be closed and the discussion ought to continue at the article talk page, but perhaps I'm wrong. Best regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 18:59, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
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– General close. See comments for reasoning.
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview I will argue that the IP editor is trying to place WP:POV into the article. The subject of this request is the background section but I feel his edits on the war on women show the same intent. Most of my argument centers on WP:UNDUE . Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represents all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint. Giving due weight and avoiding giving undue weight means that articles should not give minority views as much of, or as detailed, a description as more widely held views. The IP, continues to try to take the wording of the article to place undue weight on certain aspects. While I will use other WP policies to make the argument, I think in the end, it adds up to a strong effort to put WP:POV. These comments are made off a comparison of these the current version and this version. First, this version Sandra Fluke, then a 30-year-old law student at Georgetown, was invited by Democrats to speak at a hearing by the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee on the new Administration rules on Conscience Clause exceptions in health care.[1] The exception applies to church organizations themselves, but not to affiliated nonprofit corporations, like hospitals, that do not rely primarily on members of the faith as employees."Contraception and Insura". Have you tried to resolve this previously? Talk page has been tried as well as a RfC. A request at DRN has already been placed before. However, 209.6.69.227 rejected to participate. I also tried to bring this to the arbritration commetiee, but was told it was too soon. How do you think we can help? Indicate the best steps to resolving the issue. Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. Rush Limbaugh–Sandra Fluke controversy discussionPlease do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary. I will just go on the talk page. The IP does not want to be here, but he's okay on the talk page. I suggest closing the Peer review for now. ~~Ebe123~~ → report 01:13, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
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– General close. See comments for reasoning.
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview I had an editing dispute with editor Diannaa. Since then she has changed nearly all of my contribution. All of my references and information were correctly cited on subjects as varied as Mili Vanilli to Eli broad to Don Simpson, Girl you know it's true, Jimmy Henchman. She has removed correct citations. All seems to be as a result of a edit dispute on the Sean Combs page as of August 20. In looking at her history since this time she has devoted efforts to rewriting history and removing solid references. I would like someone with more experience than her to look at her history and the information she is targeting, and to read the citations she is removing particularly as of August 20th. I'm questioning her objectivity and neutrality. She does not allow neutral information into the Sean Combs page. Have you tried to resolve this previously? tried to resolve on Talk page How do you think we can help? I would like a more experienced editor to look in depth at her history since August 20th and in particular with regard to the Combs page. Due to a disagreement on that page, she has taken out all nearly Wikipedia. All of these pages were well-referenced. The effect is making Wikipedia less accurate. Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. mutliple locations discussionPlease do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary. This looks like a conduct dispute between two editors. DRN only handles content disputes.--SGCM (talk) 21:48, 22 August 2012 (UTC)
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– General close. See comments for reasoning.
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute
Users involved Dispute overview Nutricia make a product called Neocate - a milk substitute for babies who suffer from Cow's Milk Allergy (CMA). I work for an agency assisting Nutricia with their parent care. Recently we ran a workshop in which Mum's of babies with CMA told us that when they first had their diagnosis, they found it very difficult to find much information on the products that are available to treat their child. When we asked where they would expect to be able to find this information, Wikipedia came top of the list. In response to this need, we put together an article that describes what Neocate is, what CMA is, and other associated conditions. This article has not been written with the intention to persuade or sell Neocate, or even raise awareness - it is simply designed as an information resource for concerned Mums looking for more information about the product. We submitted this article to Wikipedia around March of this year. The article was subsequently deleted by an editor, RHaworth. From subsequent discussions, my understanding is that he feels that the reason the article is inappropriate is that it has been submitted by someone with an affiliation to Nutricia, who therefore has a conflict of interest. Have you tried to resolve this previously? I began a discussion on RHaworth's talk page, to which he rapidly responded. How do you think we can help? I would like to understand how I can fulfil the needs of these Mum's looking for information whilst remaining within Wikipedia's etiquette and policies. I would appreciate any advice or help you can offer. Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:RHaworth/2012_Jul_15#Deleted_Neocate_page discussionPlease do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.
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Dispute resolved successfully. See comments for reasoning.
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview an editor added two categories to the article--16th century and 17th century protestants. They are relevant given the he subject and the history. While the article isn't well written, they are still relevant. I reverted when someone removed the categories. They claimed "Anglicans aren't protestants" Well, I am one, and yes we are. User reverted again, I reverted. Two other users have stepped in to remove the material. I've provided proof that the categories are relevant, but that seems to be ignored despite my edit summary saying "SEE TALK PAGE" Have you tried to resolve this previously? I've provided my proof at the talk page for John Donne regarding why these two categories are relevant (I didn't even originally put them on the article, but they are relevant to the article subject). I've reached out to the other editors continuing to remove this material (it's really insignificant, two categories...but still categories have a purpose). I've reverted the work a few times, but every time I turn around, someone else is reverting it. How do you think we can help? Absent finding a way to tag categories with citations, we need some way of making sure other editors who ignore proof don't go off half-cocked and remove material. I reverted the addition of the Protestant categories because the article made no mention of protestants and Anglicanism is considered by many to be a distinct branch of Christianity altogether. See the article on Anglicanism I am happy to be proved wrong I am certainly no expert on religion and have no axe to grind one way or the other.Theroadislong (talk) 19:18, 18 August 2012 (UTC) Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. I don't know why I have been dragged into this, but I have been an Anglican priest in England, Canada and Australia for over 30 years and I am definitely *not* a Protestant. Some Anglicans may prefer to identify themselves as such but this is not the usual view among Anglicans in most countries. In fact, as the article on Anglicanism rightly says, Anglicanism is often called 'Catholic and Reformed'. There is another common expression that Anglicans are 'Catholic but not Roman Catholic and Reformed but not Protestant'. Anglicanus (talk) 14:52, 18 August 2012 (UTC)
Okay, a few points. Firstly, the notion that the Church of England and its affiliated churches represents a distinct tradition of Christianity called "Anglicanism" that was distinct from Protestantism is one which only emerged clearly in the nineteenth century, after the Oxford Movement did its work. Even then, it is a disputed notion, not universally accepted within the Anglican community, and certain member churches (most obviously the Church of Ireland) pretty clearly identify themselves as Protestant, as do many individual congregations and believers. Before the Oxford Movement, however, we don't even need to get into disputes like this. For the three hundred years from the Elizabethan Settlement to the Oxford Movement the Church of England was pretty unquestionably viewed as Protestant by everyone involved, with the possible exception of the Laudian movement of the mid 17th century, which was ephemeral until some of its ideas were revived by Newman, et al, in the 19th century. If you look at the usage of the word "Protestant" and other related concepts in the 17th and 18th centuries (and even, really, the 19th century, when the Oxford Movement was a distinct minority), it becomes clear that the Church of England and the Church of Ireland were viewed as Protestant churches. The Act of Settlement required that the heir to the throne be a Protestant, and be in communion with the Church of England. The "Protestant Ascendancy" referred to the domination of Ireland by members of the established Church of Ireland. And the general usage of "Protestant" often referred specifically to members of the Established Church - you can find sources which talk about "Protestants and Dissenters," for instance. In addition, use of the term "Anglican" is essentially anachronistic in the 17th century, and so are references to "Anglican priests." Before the 20th century, members of the clergy in the Church of England were not usually called priests. I haven't seen anyone actually dispute this on the talk page. Finally, to get to Donne himself, there seem to be plenty of sources which describe him as a protestant, not very many which describe him as an Anglican, and none which describe him as not a Protestant. john k (talk) 13:32, 19 August 2012 (UTC) John Donne discussionHello everyone, I am a volunteer here at the dispute resolution noticeboard. I have protected the article from editing, as there has been a lot of reverting going on in the last couple of days. Let's try and talk things out here instead, so that we can all reach an agreement that we are comfortable with. I noticed two parts to this dispute: the first is whether to include Category:16th-century Protestants and Category:17th-century Protestants in the article, and the second is the related issue of whether we should describe Donne as an "Anglican priest" or a "clergyman in the Church of England". About the categorisation issue - I had a look round the category system, and I found that we actually already have some categories that might apply:
However, at the moment the categorisation in this area seems a little confused. For example, in Category:16th-century clergy we have both Category:16th-century Anglican priests and Category:16th-century Christian clergy, which hardly seems logical. Also, given that arguments have been made against using "17th-century Anglican" at all, it doesn't seem likely that using these categories would help resolve the dispute. (Please do feel free to correct me if I'm wrong about this, though!) I think that to fully resolve this issue we would need to have a discussion about how to categorise all of the articles that are in a similar situation. The question of whether we use "Anglican priest" or "clergyman in the Church of England", and the question of whether the 16th- and 17th-century Protestants categories apply, would seem to apply to many articles, not just the one about Donne. Once we decide on how to categorise these people in general, then we can update all the articles in question and fix the category system, and it should prevent the problem from recurring in different articles. Does everyone agree with my assessment of the situation? Let me know what you think. Best regards — Mr. Stradivarius (have a chat) 06:21, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
How would you comment on applicability of Categorization guideline? I'm particularly interested in your opinions about the following statements from § Articles:
— Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 14:36, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
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– General close. See comments for reasoning.
Filed by aichikawa on 1:20, 19 August 2012 (UTC).
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, but 1shmt (talk · contribs) refuses to engage on the talk page and just keeps adding the same content. IPWAI (talk · contribs) has engaged but keeps adding the same content. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview More than one editor keeps adding additional media comments in a section when there is already sufficient media commentary on a recent subject. Editors don't seem to understand or case about issues of recentism as they are too close to the subject. Have you tried to resolve this previously? Multiple warnings in talk pages for both by myself and Scolaire. Didn't work. How do you think we can help? Requesting temporary full protection This case is bizarre! It was filed by Aichikawa, who then "tweaked it" so that it ((edited at 14.35:) unintentionally) appears to have been filed by 1shmt. Aichikawa complains that "the editor refuses to engage on the talk page and just keeps adding his edit", but Aichikawa has steadfastly refused to post to Talk:Joan Juliet Buck, preferring to discuss by edit summary or on user talk pages. His/her contributions on user talk pages include such collaborative suggestions as "Step three: Bark up another tree" and "This is your second warning...you will be kicked off Wikipedia". 1shmt, on the other hand, has had an account for all of 24 hours, has only edited Joan Juliet Buck and is already using edit summaries like "If you are being paid by Buck for the editing work here, please disclose the fact". I myself only got involved because of an earlier request here by IPWAI, which was not proceeded with, and which I noticed while reading another, unrelated request. I have edited the section down so that it is written in an encyclopaedic way, giving due weight to a single episode in the person's life without a mass of "he said and she said" type quotes. The other two named editors, plus a couple more, just continue to add more quotes, either pro- or anti-, and edit-war with each other without any serious attempt to discuss it on the talk page. I do think that page protection would be in order here, and the sooner the better. Scolaire (talk) 11:16, 20 August 2012 (UTC) @Aichikawa: 1shmt has talked on the talk page; you have steadfastly refused. As to how the case was opened, I merely stated facts. Shouty capitals don't alter the facts. I have amended my original statement to make it look less accusatory. Going through 1shmt's history, he doesn't even seem to be aware of this DRN, let alone claiming to have initiated it. Have you informed him of it on his talk page? Scolaire (talk) 14:35, 20 August 2012 (UTC) So sorry Scolaire, not everyone's an expert on Wikipedia like you. Yes I filed this originally, but since IT WAS MY FIRST TIME EVER FILING A DISPUTE RESOLUTION I borrowed the template for the request on John Donne (above this one). When I thought I was done, it said "the request was receiving the attention of aichikawa" which is NOT what I wanted? Go through 1shmt's history and you will see that he is the one that signed off on claiming to be the one who submitted the request since I didn't know how to put that in initially. (Corrected now.) Why would 1shmt do this? Do we care? Has already categorically refused to talk on the talk page. Can't we block him already?Aichikawa (talk) 14:24, 20 August 2012 (UTC) Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. General discussion
Do not discuss here before a DRN volunteer opens discussion. Use the talk page if necessary. As a DRN volunteer, ~~Ebe123~~ → report 19:20, 19 August 2012 (UTC)
So lets start the discussion. ~~Ebe123~~ → report 20:16, 20 August 2012 (UTC) Am I right that only one side of the dispute is here? — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 21:23, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
Yes, temporary full protection would be fantastic. I didn't request it as I forgot what it was called. 1shmt (talk · contribs) IPWAI (talk · contribs) have been consistently adding further criticism into the article's "Controversy" section which Scolaire edited down to make relevant to people outside of American East Coast media circles. Here is 1shmt: [11][12] [13][14] and IPWAI who has come back with the SAME arguments in two weeks: [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] [22] [23] This is to illustrate that Joan Juliet Buck needs more than semi-protection status as it is dealing with editors who have personal and/or political agendas and refuse not only to show up in discussions they are called into but can't seem to move on from talk discussions if they participate at all.--Aichikawa (talk) 18:19, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute
Users involved Dispute overview The section Assam#Etymology is currently in a very confused state. Any attempt to clean it, and replace it with a cleaner and condensed content has been resisted by User:Bhaskarbhagawati (BB from now). Talk page discussions, WP:3O, WP:RS/N have failed to move BB in any way, and he is deeply entrenched in his beliefs. During WP:RS/N discussion, a paragraph was vetted as a possible replacement, and accepted. An attempt was made to replace the section with this paragraph, which BB has reverted. Have you tried to resolve this previously?
How do you think we can help?
Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. Assam discussionWhile waiting for party Bhaskarbhagawati to supply an opening comment ... it would help if both parties could prepare a list of quotes from the best sources they have to support their respective proposals for the etymology section's text. The quotes will be useful to help find a resolution. The sources & quotes located at Talk:Assam#Notes are a good start. --Noleander (talk) 13:03, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview Article "Agha Waqar Ahmad" which is the name of an invrestor of water fuelled car is redirected to article "Water-fuelled car#Agha Waqar Ahmad car" While there another full article named "Agha Waqar's water-fuelled car" I think it is more appropriate to redirect it to Full article rather to part of an article. Have you tried to resolve this previously? If I make changes and redirect the article to full article it is reverted. Please have a review on that. How do you think we can help? You can allow redirection of the article "Agha Waqar Ahmad" to the article "Agha Waqar's water-fuelled car" rahter at the moment it is resirected to "Water-fuelled car#Agha Waqar Ahmad car" Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks.
Agha Waqar Ahmad discussionPlease do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary. Well I see that the article Agha Waqar's water-fuelled car is immediately viewable upon redirect, but to redirect ANY search to his water-fueled car might be more appropriate in this case, however I believe a claim could be made that a subjects biography would take precedent, and barring that, the focus of a major work (the car) would redirect to the page about said invention. Thus, a separate article, independent of the creation, allowing for expansion, is permitted, but probably not undue. My major concern is that this is universally recognized as a matter of fraud along with the list of 'water-fueled' vehicles namely because hydrolysis requires MORE energy than can be recovered from subsequent reaction. So its placement in that page may be justified. ChrisGualtieri (talk) 15:47, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview My edits are continuously deleted to protect an ignorant and cruel establishment. To keep people from knowing that .111... in not equal to 1/9 is a crime against humanity. Have you tried to resolve this previously? The other side is committed to enforcing its ignorant viewpoint. How do you think we can help? Understand that a repeating decimal represents an incomplete division. .333... is not equal to 1/3. For the love of God, use the brains he gave you and think. THERE IS ALWAYS A REMAINDER NOT REPRESENTED IN THE QUOTIENT!!! Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. Firstly, despite Mjs1138's claims, he has not "dicussed" the issue on the talk page (unless we count this rant, which predates this request by a mere 30 minutes). Secondly, his edits have been reverted not just by me, but also by Gandalf61 and Rrburke (history); I cannot tell why I was singled out as the representative of the "ignorant and cruel establishment" (hyperbole much?). Thirdly, this is a content dispute that can be solved by having a look at reliable sources. The one I immediately have at hand is a little obscure, but reliable nonetheless: von Mangoldt, Hans (1911). Einführung in die höhere Mathematik. Vol. 1. Leipzig: Verlag von S. Hirzel. p. 148. Mangoldt explicitly says 1/3=0.333... and explains what he means by "0.333..." so that the equation is true. There's nothig about "incomplete division" in that definition; rather, repeating decimals, like all decimals, are defined via sequences (other mathematicians may use infinite series, but that's an equivalent definition). Huon (talk) 00:37, 25 August 2012 (UTC) 0.999... discussionPlease do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary. Disputes need to be discussed on the talk page before being brought to DRN.--SGCM (talk) 01:29, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
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No dispute. All editors agree that the article should be condensed, and no discussion about how it should be condensed happened yet. Feel free to file another request once the talk page discussion occurs and comes to stalemate. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 01:43, 26 August 2012 (UTC) |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview This article has been over 150k in size and was featured on a popular outside website for its notoriously excessive length. Attempts to edit it to a "mere" 100k in size are reverted by two aggressive editors. I don't think there is any content dispute, the only dispute is size. The article has been by consenus too long for years but is owned snd patrolled by two editors. Editors Ring Cinema and RepublicanJacobite are either the same editor or are engaging in tag team editing. Together they have violated WP:3RR by reverting the same edit 3 times in a 2 hour period. Editor Ring Cinema has tried to WP:OWN this article for at least three years. The archived talk pages are filled with dozens of good faith attempts to edit this article. Ring replies to and dismisses them all until his definition of consensus is achieved, which means he dismisses/reverts anything she does not like. The article is well over 50% of its guideline maximum size only because of one editor. The refusal of 2 editors to either allow others to edit this article to a maximm guideline size (60-100k) or edit it themselves to a correct size is bringing disrepute to this encyclopedia in front of a wide audience - as this article is cited as prime evidence for an article held hostage by extremists with an agenda...in this case they not only really really adore this film but are excessively proud of their own lenghty opinions of this film and are using Wikipedia as an advertsing venue. A typical casual reader can not use this article, it is clearly a near verbatim copy of someone's academic paper for an introductory film course at a provincial trade school. It is an essay, not an encyclopedia entry, in its current bloated form. The sanctions, bans and previous discipline problems of editors Ring Cinema and RepublicanJacobite have failed, there is in fact no way to edit this article to its guideline size without their interference. They attempt to make their own rules about how this article should be edited by manating that any significant changes require their approval, even though VERY WIDE consensus has been achived or quite awhile that this article needs to be DRASTICALLY trimmed in size. Ring Cinema and RepublicanJacobite are preventing consensus rule as their previous disipleproblems indicate.
3rd opinion, editing, discussions on talk How do you think we can help? Nominate a 3rd party to edit the article to a reasonable size, split the article into 3 or more separate articles. Again, nothing in the content is offensive or reslly disputed, it is just that there is too much of it. This seems extremely premature. We have barely discussed it. Jason wrote one long posting and I answered. He seems to think it's his decision to make alone. Since we agree that the article should be shorter, that is a start. He is inexperienced editing film articles and I am not. He has erroneously accused me of making an emotional appeal and being resistant to shortening; both are inaccurate. I responded to his suggestions, finding some good and some not. I should mention that I am not the editor who contributed the extended material. Sometimes I made cuts when new material was ill-formed. I simply do not wish to throw away something good. Instead of starting with changes that have gained some acceptance and proceeding from there, he seems intent on taking a blunt instrument to the article. No need for haste. I agree with Ring Cinema: this is unwarranted. There has been an ongoing discussion about the length, with a number of opinions expressed. No one has argued that there is not a problem, the question is how to address it. Simply deleting large sections of the article is not the answer. I reverted those deletions and told the editor that, per BRD, discussion had to continue 'til a consensus was reached. His next step, it seems, was to come here. This is highly premature. ---The Old JacobiteThe '45 01:21, 26 August 2012 (UTC) No Country for Old Men discussionPlease do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on User talk:Jasper Deng#Your source please. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview Windows 8 editions article claims that:
I deleted these statements due to their lack of source but User:Jasper Deng has restored them. He refuses to supply any source and refuses to let me delete them either. Have you tried to resolve this previously? Just discussed in User talk:Jasper Deng talk page. The discussion has reached a standstill. How do you think we can help? How do I think you can help resolve the dispute? Strange question. If I had an answer for it, perhaps I would have not been here. Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. I consider the verification of the third statement to be easy. However if I'm convinced doing so does not constitute WP:V to the best extent possible I will back off. I consider such a statement as verifiable as the saying that Microsoft has not released details on Windows 9. More later.--Jasper Deng (talk) 17:11, 24 August 2012 (UTC) Windows 8 editions discussionHello. I am a dispute resolution volunteer here at the Wikipedia Dispute Resolution Noticeboard. This does not imply that I have any special authority or that my opinions should carry any extra weight; it just means that I have not been previously involved in this dispute and that I have some experience helping other people to resolve their disputes. Right now I am waiting for the "Opening comments by Jasper Deng" section to be filled out so I can hear from both sides before I open up this section for comments. While we are waiting for that, I would like everyone involved to review the following Wikipedia policies, guidelines and (optional) essays. Even if you are sure that you understand our policies, please take a moment and review them again: WP:V, WP:NOR, WP:SYNTH, WP:CONSENSUS, WP:CONSBUILD, WP:BRD. Thanks! --Guy Macon (talk) 11:13, 24 August 2012 (UTC) I am now opening this up for discussion. My first question is this; is our goal to show which versions share a lot of code (which would require citations to reliable third party sources) or is our goal to show the names chosen by Microsoft (which would best be established by referring to official Microsoft documents)? For example, Windows ME shares a lot of code with Windows 98, Windows Server 2008 shares a lot of code with Windows Vista, and Windows Server 2008 R2 shares a lot of code with Windows 7, but Windows Server 2008 R2 is quite different from Windows Server 2008 -- especially the i386 version. Which way do we want to go with Windows 8 versions? Also, are there any particular edits to the page that any of you would like to be examined closely? --Guy Macon (talk) 21:50, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
I have been looking at the talk page and edit history. Consider trying to prove a negative. For example, no reliable source says that Microsoft is not a major producer of snack foods. WP:V says "All quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable published source." Saying that Microsoft is not a major producer of snack foods is not likely to be challenged, and so could be included. (The question of why we are even discussing snack foods is another issue -- just because something is allowed doesn't mean it improves the article.) So what about the statement "Microsoft has not yet released maximum-supported system specifications"? Does that need a citation to a reliable source? Or is the failure of anyone challenging the statement to find a source for the specs enough? This raises the following question; how do you, the Wikipedia editor, know that Microsoft has not released this information? Did you read it in a reliable source? If so, cite the source and we are done. Did you look for the info and not find it? That would be WP:OR. If that is how you know, the best you can do is to say that the info is unknown, not that we know that Microsoft didn't release it. --Guy Macon (talk) 05:37, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
I would note, that the first statement is known to be false (eg. KLC isn't working). If there is a published claim, it may be quoted though. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 19:16, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
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Deferred to WP:MedCom, where this dispute can be handled with appropriate care. DRN is a way to solicit policy-based comments on topic, while there is no shortage of such comments in the previous discussion. Still the arguments of disputants remain unchanged after all the comments of previously uninvolved editors, so the possibilities of resolution of this dispute at DRN are exhausted. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 07:01, 28 August 2012 (UTC) |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Location of dispute
Users involved Dispute overview The disagreement is about the result (infobox) in the Vyborg–Petrozavodsk Offensive article and a description of an event in the Continuation War article. Basically, the problem is with understanding what the sources actually say vs. what one interprets them to say. The other user seems to have trouble understanding WP:OR and WP:JDLI. Have you tried to resolve this previously? No original research noticeboard,[27] third opinion,[28][29] military history project talk.[30] How do you think we can help? Point to what should go into the articles based on the rules. For the result in the first article, there are sources that almost directly say that the offensive was a Soviet strategic victory.[31] They mention the main strategic goal and say that it was accomplished, which is enough to consider the result a strategic victory (see [32]). So I wanted to change the result to Soviet victory, since strategic victory basically means victory in general. The other user complained that this is not an accurate description of the outcome. The third opinions agreed with me that it was a Soviet victory, but suggested blanking the result or linking to the aftermath section to avoid the dispute.[33] I then suggested the result to be more specific - Strategic Soviet victory,[34][35] which is exactly what the sources say. No one objected and so I changed the result to that, but Wanderer602 then started reverting it. The second issue is that Soviet/Russian sources describe fighting at a small town near the old Soviet-Finnish border on September 4-5, 1941. When I added this information to the article Wanderer602 started looking at Finnish sources and was not able to find anything about this. He found the Finnish units that were supposed to be in the area, looked up their war diary entries (primary sources) for the dates in question, did not find any evidence of fighting and concluded that nothing happened. So he then added text into the article that questions the Soviet/Russian sources (this section). To me this is obvious synthesis. -YMB29 (talk) 02:23, 24 August 2012 (UTC) Opening comments by Wanderer602None of the sources state that it was a Soviet strategic victory. It is a conjecture. WP:3 explicitly stated that they preferred to see no result at all or alternatively a link to separate section in the text instead of a result. YMB29 has repeatedly refused to accept this and instead of following the recommendation that he personally requested added a qualifier to the result (strategic) and ignored the WP:3. User YMB29 never sought for consensus in talk page before making his edit instead he made the edit while the discussion on the issue was still ongoing. In addition user YMB29 later also refused to discuss the matter on the talk page. First of all, Novyi Beloostrov was not a town, it was a village. To be clear Finnish records (all chronology, books of military history and war diaries) note that fighting took place just outside (north of) of the village but not inside of it. YMB29 claims that Finns took the village on September 4. I looked for the event in the Finnish chronology of the Continuation War and to other books of military history handling the warfare at Karelian Isthmus in 1941 none of which stated anything of a kind. I looked for war diaries of all the Finnish units located in the area at that time, none of which agreed that Finns would have taken the village or fought for it at this time. Demand that there should be an entry stating explicitly that 'there was no fighting at N. Beloostrov' like made by YMB29 is rather odd since if nothing happened then there would have been nothing to be written down about it. All used sources are reliable sources per WP rules, including primary ones which have been used precisely according to WP rules. No synthesis or OR has been involved. I have failed to understand why user YMB29 has insisted on including a supposed minor skirmish of this level to an article handling the whole of the war. - Wanderer602 (talk) 05:00, 24 August 2012 (UTC) I'm not really involved in this, but I did comment at Talk:Vyborg–Petrozavodsk Offensive#Comments by others in response to a request for input from uninvolved editors which was posted at WT:MILHIST. I think that this would be a highly suitable matter for DRN to take up, though I think that editor conduct is at least part of the problem (and possibly the entire problem). I note that YMB29 and Wanderer602 have been blocked for edit warring over this. Nick-D (talk) 08:51, 24 August 2012 (UTC) Unit war diaries can sometimes reflect differing 'truths' of what went on despite looking like very authentic sources. Remember that six different people seeing the same event can give six different versions. This is why we need to stick to solid secondary or tertiary literature, when historians have been able to sift the claims and come up with reasoned accounts of what happened. In the absence of solid historical literature on both sides, the skirmish or otherwise should not be listed in the article, in accordance with WP:BURDEN. Wanderer, YMB, would encourage you both to do further literature searching on this issue. Buckshot06 (talk) 23:11, 24 August 2012 (UTC) I thought we had gone through this already in Talk:Continuation_War/Archive_13! From Finnish side we have several histories of Finnish advance of 1941 and regimental histories which describe how far Finns advanced at a given date. We have been so thorough in this issue, that I believe that if I get Your permission to combine all this information together, YMB and Wanderer, I could get it published in any Finnish historical journal and very likely in some Russian one also. The real differences between you is really minimal in this issue and could be easily settled with some goodwill. --Whiskey (talk) 22:54, 25 August 2012 (UTC) Vyborg–Petrozavodsk Offensive discussionPlease do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary. Let's open this thread for discussion. ~~Ebe123~~ → report 01:07, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
I don't think that continuing the debate on the articles' talk page here (complete with accusations of bad faith) is at all helpful. I agree with Buckshot's comment above; we need to stick to what's been published in reliable sources, and use primary sources with great care (eg, never use them to 'fill in the gaps' in secondary sources in circumstances where this is controversial). In regards to the Vyborg–Petrozavodsk Offensive infobox, as I suggested on the article's talk page a while ago, if different sources say different things the two approaches for the infobox are a) to note the differing views on the outcomes of the operation (with citations) or b) simply leave this field blank, and explain the debate over the outcomes of the operation in the article. I suspect that b) is the better option here. Nick-D (talk) 00:39, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
I ask the parties to comment on this statement: As the sources see the strategic and tactic goals of the offensive differently, the result of the offensive is too controversial to be explained in a couple of words. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 13:59, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview This dispute is over which language (Bosnian or Croatian) Enver Čolaković wrote in and can be read here for more background. Let me preface this with stating that Bosnian, Croatian, Serbian and Montenegrin are considered by linguists to all be a single Serbo-Croatian language and that these new separate names are motivated by nationalism. Having said that I have provided a source in which Čolaković himself states he wrote in Bosnian: "I started writing Legend with a specific purpose, to preserve our Bosnian language. Not the language of confessions or nations in Bosnia, but the language of Bosnia." On the other hand Wüstenfuchs suggests that he wrote in Croatian language (something which Čolaković himself never claimed in any capacity) and cites a Croatian book on "Who is who in the Independent State of Croatia". I repeatedly told him that "each source must be carefully weighed to judge whether it is reliable for the statement being made and is the best such source for that context" and that the claim he spoke Croatian is the personal opinion of the book's author. However, the discussion went in circles and ended with him rambling on about Hitler and Jews. Have you tried to resolve this previously? Discussed for a while and were unable to reach any conclusion and is currently at a standstill. How do you think we can help? Focus the discussion on the relevant policies and guidelines. Ok, now. I never denied he wrote in Bosnian, that's first. But he also wrote in Croatian. Second, there is other source mentioned in my talk page. Third, your own judgment is to say that various oppinions on language are nationalistic, and you might insult many people who think otherwise. Nevertheless, there are two sources on my talk page, one is in the article. You started a discussion about logical fallacy and a day before you removed a sourced information. The reason why everything ended on "Hitler and Jews" was because I was explaining your fallacy. The book Who is Who in the Independent State of Croatia is a biographical book published in 1998, as I recall, and has nothing to do with the fascist state, but it would be completely different thing if you are linking a current Croatian state with the fascists. --Wüstenfuchs 21:55, 25 August 2012 (UTC) Enver Čolaković discussionCan the parties elaborate the arguments against using Serbo-Croatian as the name of the language? — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 00:40, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
Ok, could the parties comment on the following statement: Within the period of author's activity the naming conventions for languages in Yugoslavia were unstable, and they are still not universally accepted now. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 13:40, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
Czarkoff, please see Serbo-Croatian's history (specifically between 1940s-1970s) for an explanation to your above statement. "we have two soruces stating he wrote in Croatian" Still completely ignoring if the sources are "reliable for the statement being made" and if they are the "best such source for that context". "his books were published by Matica hrvatska" Yes, his book "Legend" was also published by Matica hrvatska and we know what he said regarding that book. Please stop relying on your own personal conclusions and trying to connect dots to your liking. The fact they are published there does not mean they are in Croatian. "Linguists agree that grammatical difference between Croatian and for example Serbian is 35%" All linguists agree that it's "35%"? All of them? Really? Also why not 39% or 46% while figures are being pulled out of thin air? "Bosnian didn't existed at the time, which led me to conclusion that writer was talking about specific dialect" Officiality in government does not determine whether a language exists or does not. Simply because these standards have the status of "official language" in government does not mean they are any more in existence or more authentic than they were in the past. And again the man specifically said "jezik" (language) and not "dijalekt" (dialect). "He assumed that Čolaković wrote all of his books in Bosnian" I don't know how many times I have to repeat myself: "you claim he wrote in Croatian yet you have no evidence of him saying that he did in ANY capacity while on the other hand it's been established that he said that he wrote in Bosnian (regardless of whether you interpret it to be one book or many)". For someone trying to be portrayed as loving to write in Croatian it's a bit odd he never said he actually wrote in it, but did say he wrote in Bosnian. As for the Croatization bit, it's hard not believe that your pushing it when these diffs exist: [40][41]. This also isn't the first individual. -- ◅PRODUCER (TALK) 15:24, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
So, the parties agree to "Bosnian, Croatian, German and Hungarian"? — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 17:47, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
Ok, let me also note that the same page from where you took Čolaković's quote also states he wrote in Croatian: http://www.envercolakovic.com/madarskalirika.htm ("Trojezičan od djetinjstva (mađarski, njemački i hrvatski), Enver Čolaković radi, uz svoj bogati književni opus, dvije antologije mađarske i austrijske poezije"). Besides, various sources say he wrote and translated in Croatian. I won't object including Bosnian but still, to many sources that support the information he wrote in Croatian can't be simply ignored. Also his novel the Legend about Ali Pasha was awarded as "the best Croatian novel" in 1943. I hope this might help also - [42]. His book published by the Islamic Community in Zagreb (who are Bosniaks) states he wrote in Croatian (last page, bio). --Wüstenfuchs 21:54, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
OK, I'l give you a point to think about until any more objective volunteer joins this discussion: Čolaković lived at the time when (1) the official language was Serbo-Croatian and (2) the status of Croatian, Bosnian, Serbian and Serbo-Croatian languages was a topic of numerous political discussions and events, but unlike most of contemporary writers he didn't explicitly state his position. Does that indicate anything to you? — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 08:49, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
We should also consider that Čolaković wrote for number of newspapers in Croatian language. You may see those in the article. As I said, I agree we leave both Bos and Cro. --Wüstenfuchs 18:54, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview I have attempted to provide an article of the controversial attempts to use technological advances in cycling so athletes gain a potential advantage for the London 2012 Olympics. First of all the article was removed on the basis that 'the British team did well', then on the basis is isn't controversial because no rules were broken. When I find evidence that it is controversial the excuse it doesn't matter how many quotes and research I find, it doesn't make it controversial. Initial tactics involved just removing quotes from reports and even statements on the basis that there 'was no evidence', then more sophisticated methods were used such as I am using 'synthesis'. Suggesting that members may be biased leads to threats that I may be bannd for calling other memebers! I have clarified a point with a University professor to clarify a point, only for users to use the excuse the fact can't be used because it needs an expert to understand. Another example is that improvements in the 1 hr cycling record due to aerodynamics has no relevence to the Olympics because the event isn't used in the Olympics! The latest tactic is to corrupt the article slowly, and so it appears not to address London 2012 so it can be removed to a less prominent section. This appears mainly the work od one member who encourages this behaviour in a few others. Have you tried to resolve this previously? Send an Email 'ArbCom-l' with the subject Arbitration - Controversies_at_the_2012_Summer_Olympics#Technologies_used_for_Olympic_sports Is being held until the list moderator can review it for approval. The reason it is being held: Post by non-member to a members-only list Nothing seems to have happened How do you think we can help? Examine if the rules are being misused (overzealous), examining the edits. Point out that members must be unbiased. Warn members not to remove extracts if they are quotes from respected sources. Respect other members research and don't blind users with high sounding wikipedia rules such as 'synthesis' when there is no justification! Please limit to 2000 characters - longer statements may be deleted in their entirety or asked to be shortened. This is so a volunteer can review the dispute in a timely manner. Thanks. Controversies at the 2012 Summer Olympics discussionPlease do not use this for discussing the dispute prior to a volunteer opening the thread for comments - continue discussing the issues on the article talk page if necessary.
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Dispute resolved successfully. See comments for reasoning.
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview Secondary sources and Jolla itself say "Jolla OS is based on MeeGo". Jolla itself also says "Jolla OS is based on Mer". Technically, Jolla OS is based on Mer, and Mer is based on MeeGo. Mer is not very notable (yet) and could be characterised as a technical detail. Should we trust the secondary sources and keep to them in the article intro? Or, should we make inferences that the secondary sources are incomplete, and keep to the more technically precise formulation?
We've discussed the matter for two weeks now on the article talk page. How do you think we can help? Focus the discussion on the relevant policies and guidelines. (Intro) Thank you for give me more time. I will be able to take part in discussion late on Friday, but it can happen that only on Saturday midday. Here is my statement with sources and text of sources. This has enlarged text but it will save your time on digging into sources, every of them has link so you can verify in person weather they are as here or different. The boldings of txt are by Ocexyz to pay your attention. I tried to make clear where is original text and where is my comment. Those texts has been cut, removed were parts not important for this discussion IMHO, so this is compilation.
“Jolla OS is MeeGo based fork and use the core of the Mer which is the MeeGo core fork.” is reasonable, sourced, confirmed, factual and true, and comply Wikipedia standards. Dispute overview is not clear enough, or not precise enough. Secondary sources and Jolla itself say "Jolla OS is based on MeeGo". Jolla itself also does not say "Jolla OS is based on Mer" (if I am wrong please provide link with confirmation in reliable source) it says "Jolla OS is based on the Mer core ". Technically, Jolla OS is based on the Mer core or the merproject, and Mer is fork of the MeeGo core and MeeGo project. Mer is not well known to end users, but quite notable for interested in vendors and known for the MeeGo and developers community. The Mer core could be characterised as a technical detail among others in the future Jolla OS. 1) The Jolla There are no sources confirming that Jolla OS is “Based on the Mer Linux” exclusively and only, what is the point of opponents. Jollla has declared several times by different persons their system is MeeGo and they, the Jolla company, is going to develop MeeGo ecosystem with former, current and future members of MeeGo community including: customers, software and system developers, mobile carriers, including both organizations (like companies-institutions-foundations etc.) and single p... Ocexyz (talk) 22:23, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
In short I was saying that we know that Jolla is technically based on Mer Core, and they use Meego name in their announcements for familiarity (i.e. social/marketing) reasons. We have no sources to show that Jolla is based on Meego project as in contrast to the Mer project (and those are two separately managed projects now). I.e. on something from Meego that is not coming from Mer. Therefore for the sake of clarity and correctness the summary should say that Jolla is based on the Mer Core. I agree to the importance of highlighting that Jolla is historically connected to the Meego project (through Mer), while at the same time I consider it important to highlight that Mer and Meego are distinct now, and Jolla is not based technically on the the frozen project (Meego). So I can propose such phrasing: "Jolla OS is based on the Mer Core and continues the work started by the MeeGo project". Or even clearer it could sound: "Jolla OS is based on the Mer Core through which it continues the work started by the MeeGo project". These phrases will show the distinction and will highlight the relation at the same time. As already mentioned the dispute is about the expression "Jolla OS is based on Meego". In my opinion this is wrong, because the Meego project was closed last year. Meego was started from Nokia and Intel, however Nokia switched completely to Windows and Intel founded a new partnership with Samsung and started Tizen. Therefore you can see "Tizen" advertised on top and bottom on every Meego webpage. There you can also see the roadmap: https://meego.com/about/roadmaps which ends in 2011, however the planned Meego 1.3 was never finished. The last version is 1.2 and that is under "life-support", i.e. there are bug-fixes and minor updates, nothing else or new. Because Meego was shut down, the open source community took over the project. They forked the codebase, re-organized it and cut down the needed packages. This is called "Mer" or Mer Core. Most notable is that they don't provide a user-interface. Jolla said on twitter that they are "based on Meego" (note the missing version number); however, they also wrote that Jolla OS is "running on Mer", and moreover they openly stated ""#MeeGo is the name people know and love. #merproject is the core OS project name." Therefore it is obvious to me that they use the Meego brand only for advertisement purposes and to gain some attention, but not for technical reasons. My last attempt for a compromise was "Jolla is based on the Meego API", because Meego's API consists only of QT/QT mobile and OpenGL ES, which btw. is not used any longer in Intel's Tizen project. This attempt however, was not fruitful either. The response were some official statements from intel, stating that they are still committed to Meego. Which however is against the facts that the central Qt libraries are not used any longer in Tizen (and of course there are no new roadmaps/plans for Meego). Maybe the best and most neutral statement now would be to omit both, Meego and Mer and only write "based on a FOSS GNU/Linux and Qt and aimed on mobile/small devices", which I believe is what the Jolla people really mean when they say Meego. But of course, I don't have a source or proof for that. Thanks for reading and helping, your decision is very appreciated. I just want the discussion to end soon. --Dark Almöhi (talk) 20:23, 18 August 2012 (UTC) Talk:Jolla discussion (volume 1)
I pinged Ocexyz about his opening comments, and he responded that he would prefer to participate, though he has no time for it until the weekend. Given that the case is filed some time ago, quite a lot of discussion happened at the article's talk page since and at least some of disputants consider Ocexyz's input critical for the dispute resolution process, I would propose to close it now and give it a fresh start on Friday evening (August 24, 2012), when everybody have time to discuss the issue in interactive manner. Any objections? — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 14:12, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
MeeGo is superior quality of Jolla OS then the Mer core which in fact is just more developed part of MeeGo. The company use in sources clearly "MeeGo based" and to this can be added a technical detail of the Mer core, this is logical and source based. But not in opposite way IMHO. Also we can't hide that the whole ecosystem by Jolla is based on MeeGo. They build worldwide MeeGo ecosystem but their mobile is only Mer based? Why? This is confusing for most of Wikipeida users. And it is against what sources say also. That would not be any consensus. This could be "Jolla OS is a Linux based on MeeGo and Mer projects" or something. MeeGo is main aspect of the Jolla OS and the Jolla company, just it was formed to continue MeeGo development and use it's opportunities, just can't be omitted. The relation is {MeeGo[Mer(Mer core)]) but not {Mer core[MeeGo]). Wikipedia is not for half-truths IMHO. The consensus can't be against facts, can we agree with this? Ocexyz (talk) 11:11, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
How about a compromise. Let's use a broad statement like "Jolla is derived from the Meego and Mer projects" in the lead, and leave the technical details in the body paragraphs. The lead should avoid using the word "x-based" to describe Jolla, whether Meego-based or Mer-based, which is ambiguous, to sidestep the entire dispute over the technicalities.--SGCM (talk) 11:38, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
I would note, that I don't see any claim that Jolla uses something from Meego outside Mer, which makes overall dispute somehow weird. IMO the only reason to mention Meego in the lede is to explain Mer's background and status, which may be better served by the explanatory footnote. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 17:36, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
I think dropping neither MeeGo nor Mer is acceptable, both are elements of this puzzle. Ocexyz (talk) 19:17, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
It was mentione above that "primary sources are good for technical details. Jolla dirictly has declared "our OS is MeeGo based with using the Mer core". If I have understood correctly DA would like to treat Jolla OS as developed on Mer OS and not to use MeeGo in the article. There is no such a possibility. There are only a few sources where Mer is mentioned and plenty of sources where MeeGo is confirmed. Wikipedia can't be used for promoting Mer purposes, that would be the case. Ocexyz (talk) 19:47, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
This inspiration proposed above something what I have already proposed "smartphones with the mobile Linux operating system, the MeeGo fork using the core of Mer which is based on the previous work of the MeeGo project." what could be transformed to following: "Jolla OS is a mobile Linux operating system, the MeeGo fork built upon the Linux-based Mer Project" - how about this? The same reliable source should be an inspiration also with following: "Those who make the cut will form part of its target of having 100 Finnish staff by the end of 2012, the soft deadline for the launch of its smartphone based on a MeeGo OS fork." Ocexyz (talk) 21:28, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
You asked about sources omitting Mer, there are such a sources. But this is because Mer is only a technical detail. Claiming that Mer is not included to Jolla MeeGo would be a falsification. Ocexyz (talk) 21:45, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
I think this discussion is getting bogged down in semantics and technicalities in the same way that Talk:Jolla was. We need to reach a compromise, one that accurately represents the reliable sources and one that everyone can agree on. If it's really necessary, let's just directly quote from the source so that we won't have to argue over the wording.--SGCM (talk) 22:34, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
Let's just quote from the source: "ZDNet has written that Jolla uses the "Linux-based Mer Project, the core operating system of the MeeGo fork Jolla has chosen to build upon." Would quoting from the reliable source make all the parties of the dispute happy? This way, there's no fighting over the wording.--SGCM (talk) 22:46, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
Talk:Jolla discussion (volume 2)Alright, let's go over everyone's POVs on the dispute, and try to reach a compromise starting from there:
So, how do we compromise? Remember, as per WP:RS, the wording must be based on how the reliable sources present the information, and not how we personally view the relationship between Jolla, Mer, and MeeGo. Perhaps we need a DRN on this DRN. :P --SGCM (talk) 23:12, 25 August 2012 (UTC)
<...>
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After some more thinking I can suggest the following wording:
I believe this is neither misleading, nor contradictory to sources. The problem of people not knowing that any Linux distribution is an operating system is solved with link to Linux distribution. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 10:28, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
@ all. Dark A. has written above: >>>I am not a native speaker myself, I just used it because the Jolla people used it in that statement: @luissoeiro Jolla OS is running on #merproject core, yes. https://twitter.com/JollaMobile/status/235046019824508928 Thus I thought it is correct English. --Dark Almöhi (talk) 10:22, 26 August 2012 (UTC) <<< BUT the whole source says as following: "Luis Soeiro @luissoeiro @JollaMobile Are you mer-based? If so, congratulations, but please try to keep the user free from locked bootloaders or locked roms. #meego Jolla Jolla @JollaMobile @luissoeiro Jolla OS is running on #merproject core, yes." Please note Jolla has confirmed "#merproject core" so upon WP:SOURCE WP:V this ought to be used. And core is significant what I claim this for several weeks already at jolla talk page and also here. See my statement and see bolded core. It is hard not to notice that IMHO. Again WP:SOURCE there is no confirmation of used "Mer operting system" but "#merproject core". If this is obvious to understand this opereting system the use of source is valid. So:
I also propose to remove footnote because this is described below in the article and more precise, so there is no need to double it here, also this is not about Jolla story. And core is significant what I claim this for several weeks already at jolla talk page and also here. See my statement and see bolded core. It is hard not to notice that IMHO. Again WP:SOURCE there is no confirmation of used "Mer operting system" but "#merproject core". Ocexyz (talk) 13:57, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
so we could avoid weather this is core or anything else, and everybody interested in could go to further. MeeGo deletion is not acceptable. WP:NOP WP:CONSENSUS]] Ocexyz (talk) 14:53, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
Proposed resolutionI propose to split the Jolla article into:
As I see it, this would solve the problem. — Dmitrij D. Czarkoff (talk) 13:50, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
Hmm ... what would be the difference to my idea from above with a Linux-only lede, Meego/Meego-ecosystem under cooperate affairs and Mer under software? The risk to mix up things again by new editors? I am also a little bit reluctant to the split up, simply because we will get 2 micro articles out from one small one. As long as there are no products the "Jolla company" article will be rather short, people might fill a delete request again, especially if there is then another Jolla OS article. Hence, I would try to split it only after the release of some hardware or at least the release of enough information/specification of it. But ok, if we cannot find a better agreement (and we are looking for one already some time now), then I am fine with the split. --Dark Almöhi (talk) 14:50, 27 August 2012 (UTC)
Hello all, I'd like to propose a "Forest for the trees" solution that I think will satisfy both sides as I precieve them (the "MeeGo" and the "Mer" camps).
This allows those who see it being a specific slight to talk exclusively about one or the other. Both get somewhat equal representation in their contribution to Jolla. I chose MeeGo over Mer to go first simply on alphabetical order. The idea is that we've been discussing this here for 11 days and still not come to any sort of resolution. Pending this solution not being accepted I'm inclined to request that this be closed and have either more advanced forms of DR (Widely advertised RFC (including applicable wikiprojects) or moving forward to MEDCOM). Hasteur (talk) 13:13, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
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- ^ McCarthy, Meghan (March 4, 2012). "How Contraception Became A Train Wreck For Republicans". National Journal. Retrieved March 13, 2012.