Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Dorset/archive1 - Wikipedia


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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by GrahamColm 21:02, 18 August 2012 [1].

Dorset (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

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Nominator(s): Ykraps (talk) 17:55, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Formerly a Featured Article, Dorset was downgraded to a B Class in Oct 2010. Following a Peer Review and a virtual rewrite it was elevated to Good Article status in August last year. After a further Peer Review, more work and a copyedit, we tentatively believe we are ready for FAN.--Ykraps (talk) 17:55, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. One thing caught my eye skimming: "Dorset is unaffected by the more intense winds of Atlantic storms that Cornwall and Devon experience." Is it that black-and-white, intense in Devon and not in Dorset? - Dank (push to talk) 19:47, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Dorset is sheltered from the more aggressive Atlantic winds by Devon and Cornwall, yes. It's why the north and north west coasts of those counties are popular with surfers, and Dorset has a rubbish surf reef! Do you think the sentence needs toning down?--Ykraps (talk) 20:43, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I hesitate to make a recommendation when I've never been to Dorset. The wording does seem a little bit stark. - Dank (push to talk) 21:21, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Better?--Ykraps (talk) 22:00, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Sure. - Dank (push to talk) 22:52, 29 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:17, 4 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • "Dorsetshire continued to be a common alternative name for the county for centuries but has now fallen out of fashion" - source?
The truth is, we didn't consider this sentence to be controversial. The shire suffix has been widely dropped across the entire country, not just in Dorset (see the article on Shire counties). There is a very similar sentence in the Somerset article, a Featured Article, which is also unsourced. However, having said all that, I am prepared to remove the sentence if it means getting FA status.--Ykraps (talk) 21:03, 4 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Check alphabetization of references
Swapped Chaffey and Cullingford. Thanks--Ykraps (talk) 21:03, 4 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Putnam or Putman? Hilliam or Hillman?
Corrected.--Ykraps (talk) 21:03, 4 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Compare page formatting on FNs 19 and 123
Sorry, not sure I understand, can you expand on this please?--Ykraps (talk) 21:03, 4 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Publisher given but not visible due to a cite web/cite news template mix up.--Ykraps (talk) 21:03, 4 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment This appears to be an excellent article with good referencing. I have a question: Who owns Dorset? Are there rich landowners owning great swathes of the countryside? How much does the Ministry of Defence own? You mention Tyneham being requisitioned during WWII – does the MOD still own the area? Is this contentious? Does the National Trust own a significant acreage? Does the crown or Duchy of Cornwall own chunks of the county? Aa77zz (talk) 09:16, 15 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, that's a lot of questions about ownership. Are you interested in buying it? :) The short answer is yes to all. There are a number of large landowners, including the crown, the MOD, the National Trust and private owners. The MOD still owns Tyneham and other parts of Lulworth, Bovington, Blandford, Portland and more besides. It was at one time hugely controversial when the MOD refused to return Tyneham but appears to be less so today. The Duchy of Cornwall owns Poundbury. The National Trust claims parts of the Jurassic Coast, parts of the Isle of Purbeck and Brownsea Island among its Dorset possessions. Much of this information is freely available on the interweb.--Ykraps (talk) 12:17, 15 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm still saving to buy my first piece. The tone of your answer suggests that you don't believe such information belongs in this high level article and that the question of ownership is adequately covered by other linked articles. I'm not so sure. As always it is a question of judging what to include and what to omit but if, as seems possible, a few landowners own a substantial fraction of the total land, then this should be mentioned in the article. Aa77zz (talk) 13:58, 15 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies for my tone, I think I was wandering where your line of enquiry was leading. We were sort of following the WP:WikiProject UK geography/How to write about counties guidelines which didn't really mention ownership and although I sort of agree that large landowners are worthy of inclusion, I'm not sure whether anyone owns such a significant amount as to warrant special mention. I will give this some more thought however.--Ykraps (talk) 16:35, 16 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

  • Ref 54 should be BBC Dorset, not BBC
  • Ref 132 needs date (7 April 2010) and was published on guardian.co.uk, not The Guardian newspaper
  • Ref 196 published on guardian.co.uk also
  • Ref 197 needs space between date and month
  • Ref 205 needs author and is BBC Dorset, not BBC News – Lemonade51 (talk) 16:59, 15 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
All correct now, I think. Thanks--Ykraps (talk) 17:08, 16 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Rodw Having made some significant edits to Somerset I thought it would be interesting to take a look at a neighbouring county. I think the article is good but have some specific questions and comments

Lead

  • A 2010 population estimate is included in the infobox - the data from the 2011 census was released today & this should be updated with official figures (start here). This would also apply to the demography section.
  • Yes, I'd noticed that the first estimates have been published but thought it better to wait until all the information was available, otherwise there will be a mixture of 2001 and 2011 data which I think will be too confusing. The age structure, ethnic groups, religion, economic activity, industry and employment figures appear to be due for release between Nov 12 and Feb 13 [[2]].--Ykraps (talk) 09:19, 21 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • The lead introduces the topic but I'm not sure it adequately summarises the content - eg limited mention some of the culture, transport etc sections
  • Weymouth doesn't appear to be wikilinked on first occurrence in the lead.

Toponymy

History

  • This is linked in the lead. Does it need a further link or did you miss the first one?--Ykraps (talk) 07:00, 17 July 2012 (UTC) Oh, and it is linked in the main body, albeit rather cryptically.[reply]
  • OK didn't spot that
  • I'm not a grammar expert but the phrase "During the 18th century the Dorset coast saw much smuggling activity" didn't seem quite right to me.
  • Do gliders "drop" troops?
  • I thought the gliders landed and then the troops got out - but I will strike this.
  • I may be wrong but I believed the borders of the county with Hampshire and Devon, and hence its area, had changed over the years and on a quick scan I couldn't see any mention of this apart from in the lead.
  • The '74 boundary changes are mentioned in the politics section. Funnily enough, we removed some other references because we thought it had been a bit over-mentioned. I'm not aware of boundary changes with Devon but will look into it further.--Ykraps (talk) 07:43, 17 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Apparently the parish of Thorncombe (in Devon until 1836) was transferred to Dorset from the diocese of Salisbury in 1844. Also in 1844, Holwell went from Somerset to Dorset. Also from Somerset, the parishes of Goathill, Poynington, Sandford Orcas, Seaborough joined Dorset in 1896 while Wambrook went the other way. Also in 1896 Dorset lost Chardstock to Devon. Assuming I can find reliable sources, how much of this info do you think should be included, and where in the article do you suggest it is best placed?--Ykraps (talk) 16:00, 17 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm not sure how much but some mention of these changes may be useful for readers not familiar with the county, who may have come across references elesewhere to villages/parishes being in one county or another.— Rod talk 18:45, 17 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Physical geography

  • Would it be worth having a sepearate ecology section & I was expecting to see the Canford Heath article linked in the piece on species of reptiles etc - It would also be good if the Dorset Heathlands had an article as it is a SPA & Ramsar site.
  • The claim about "Western Europe's largest onshore oil field" probably needs a citation.
  • Rainfall figures appear in this section as well as the subsequent climate section.
  • In the paragrapgh about the Jurasic Coast I would have expected a mention of fossils at Lyme Regis

Demography

  • I had to read the sentence "Between 1998 and 2004 Poole borough experienced a decline in its population caused by continuing negative rates of natural increase and falls in the level of net migration." three times to work out what it meant - but that may just be me.
  • No, not just you. Again, this came up at a previous peer review but at the time I thought, "That's just him". :) I have changed this sentence to read "....when there was a fall in the level of net migration".--Ykraps (talk) 06:16, 19 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Politics

  • I thought Oliver Letwin's title was "Minister of State at the Cabinet Office" rather than " Minister for Government Policy".

Economy and industry"

  • The decline of agriculture not being the largest employer "for many decades" is nebulous, particularly as we are then told it declined between 1995 and 2003 and an increase in the land used for it.
  • I have changed to "mid 19th century". The service industry became the largest employer some time between the 1841 and 1881 census. Draper points to the mechanisation of farming, that began in the 1830s as a major cause. Fluctuations in labour and land area don't always have an effect on the economy. For example, the increase referred to in the article has been in permanent grass and land set-aside. Land set-aside makes no contribution to the economy and permanent grass makes only a small, indirect contribution if it used for grazing. In contrast, arable land (used for growing crops), makes a significant contribution, and this has been reduced.--Ykraps (talk) 16:39, 18 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Tourism - "Some 3.2 million British and 326,000 foreign tourists visited the county in 2008" and yet in the lead it says " the county receives some 18 million visitors a year" presumably this includes the day trippers?
  • The picture caption "Dorset's coastline is a major attraction for tourists" doesn't tell us that Bournemouth pier is shown

Culture

  • Some of the arts venues listed would not, in my opinion, be considered "Major venues for concerts and theatre".
    I think the idea was to mention a range of venues across the county but I have removed some of the smaller venues that don't have much 'pulling power'.--Ykraps (talk) 06:36, 19 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • The "ands" don't seem right in " Weymouth Bay and Portland Harbour,[186] and Poole Bay and Poole Harbour"
  • Yes I think this is better, but would it be worth mentioning that these are all on the English Channel? - I know it is mentioned in the lead and elsewhere, but those unfamiliar with the county may not know which body of water they border.— Rod talk 16:04, 19 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Claiming Ian Fleming as a Dorset literary figure when he "boarded at a preparatory school seems to be stretching it a bit.

Looking at WP:UKCITIES the guideline suggests more could be included on Religious sites (which get a minor mention in culture) and public services. I think the article is looking good but could do with a little more polishing to achieve FA quality.— Rod talk 19:41, 16 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I should have pointed to WP:UKCOUNTIES rather than cities.— Rod talk 07:24, 17 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support I have been away for a couple of weeks and the improvement in the article has continued. I now feel it meets the FA criteria.— Rod talk 08:01, 12 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Dorsetshire continued to be a common alternative name for the county for centuries but has now fallen out of fashion. - avoid "now" - best way is by finding the approx. date the term ceased being current. I can check OED later tonight, but someone might have a better source.
Finding accurate date and a reference has proved to be extremely difficult. As their have been previous comments regarding this sentence, I have decided to remove it until better sources are found.--Ykraps (talk) 07:30, 6 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
At the risk of overloading the lead, I would add that it has been an entity since the 7th century.....
Okay, good suggestion, I have done so.--Ykraps (talk) 06:55, 26 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Rather than have Dorset (UK Parliament constituency) in the seealso section, I'd write a sentence or so and place in the politics section. Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:03, 26 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Adding a sentence about the historical county constituency would prompt an explanation of the historical borough constituencies of which there were (from memory) 7 and these experienced a number of changes. We would like to add all this as a footnote but the real problem has been finding reliable sources.--Ykraps (talk) 07:30, 6 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That's fine by me then. Casliber (talk · contribs) 12:29, 12 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Otherwise - the article is looking promising from a prose and comprehensiveness view. I'll run through the prose again later. Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:07, 26 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your suggestions and the copy edit.--Ykraps (talk) 07:30, 6 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • main railway lines — personally I'd write railway main lines
  • Roman Legion — why caps? I know it's linked to a specific region, but text should still be lc.
  • Portland or Purbeck stone — I know it's all relative, but I'm not sure I'd describe any limestone as hard. Not a big deal though

Delegate notes -- image check plus spotcheck of sources for accuracy and avoidance of close paraphrasing needed. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 10:05, 12 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Spotchecks

  • Article: Dorset hosts a number of annual festivals, fairs and events including the Great Dorset Steam Fair near Blandford, one of the largest events of its kind in Europe,[179] and the Bournemouth Air Festival, a free air show that attracted 1.3 million visitors in 2010.[180]
    Done
  • Sources: Great Dorset Steam Fair:Preparations for the 38th annual gathering of steam engines and vintage machinery are gathering momentum. The fair, which takes place at Tarrant Hinton near Blandford, is one of the biggest events of its kind in Europe.[179] Last year the four-day event, now in its fourth year, attracted 1.3 million.[180]
The source refers to 2009 not 2010, which attracted 250,000.
  • Article: The winning design, which features a white cross with a red border on a golden background, attracted 54% of the vote.[208]
  • Source: In a poll 54% of the vote opted for the white cross, with a red border on a golden background following a competition run by Dorset County Council to find a new flag.
  • Article: Two passenger sea ports and an international airport are situated in the county. Brittany Ferries and Condor Ferries, operate out of Poole Harbour; Brittany Ferries provide access to Cherbourg in France and Condor Ferries sail a seasonal service to the Channel Islands and St Malo, France.[216]
  • Source: Ro Ro passengers...Services from Poole to:...CHERBOURG, France...Brittany Ferries...Fast Craft...May to september Summer only ...Daytime Fast craft -2hrs 15 minutes...CHANNEL ISLANDS...Condor Ferries Fast Craft April to October...Jersey Crossing time 3hrs...Guernsey Crossing time 2hrs 40 minutes
  • Article: The Wilts & Dorset bus company has a county wide network with frequent services linking major towns and a limited service in rural locations.[223]
  • Source: Wilts & Dorset is the name for quality bus services in and around Bournemouth & Poole, Purbeck, Salisbury and the New Forest. Our frequent Cross County network also links major towns and cities across the area.
  • Article: A former river valley flooded by rising sea levels 6,000 years ago, Poole Harbour is one of the largest natural harbours in the world.[84][85]
  • Sources: .. it covers the period from its formation after the last Ice Age, around 6,000 years ago, to present day...Formerly a river valley which flowed through what are now the main channels of the harbour, the harbour was formed when rising water levels led to a breakthrough between what is now the Needles and Old Harry Rocks. One of the world’s largest natural harbours and one of the most beautiful parts of the British Isles.
  • Article: The other two major settlements in the county are Dorchester, which has been the county town since at least 1305,[57]
  • Source: Dorchester has been the county town since at least 1305
  • Article: Excluding hills such as the Dorset Downs, the average annual temperature of the county is 9.8 to 12 °C (50 to 54 °F).[106]
  • Source: (This is a annual temperature map of the UK, most of Dorset is 10.2 to 12 °C, some regions are 9.8 to 10.1 °C)
  • Article: Most of Dorset's coastline is part of the Jurassic Coast, a World Heritage Site, which stretches for 153 kilometres (95 mi) between Studland and Exmouth in Devon. This coast documents the entire Mesozoic era, from Triassic to Cretaceous and is noted for its geological landforms.[94]
  • Source: A stretch of coastline along the south of England has been declared a World Heritage Site because of its wealth of prehistoric remains. The honour for a 95-mile (150 kilometres) stretch of shore in Devon and Dorset has been granted by Unesco, the United Nations' cultural committee.
No issues except for the one regarding the year. Graham Colm (talk) 13:23, 12 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Now altered. Thanks--Ykraps (talk) 14:45, 13 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Sorry to be so late showing up, but I have only just been prompted to look at this article, which I peer reviewed about 20 months ago. It has come on enormously since then and seems to be well on the way to FA standard. I have a rather lengthy list of points, but most of these are small and easily fixable; if the delegates are inclined to promote on the basis of the review so far, I don't think my issues need hold that up, but I do believe they should be addressed if the article is to fully meet the FA criteria:

  • You need to give more years or year ranges to the first mention of events, so that readers can follow the chronology without constantly resorting to links. Not all readers will know the dates of, for example, the English Civil War, the Monmouth rebellion, the Tolpuddle Martyrs, the dissolution of the monasteries, and perhaps other events in British history. I'd even play safe by adding the dates 1939–45 to the mention of the Second World War - you can't be too careful.
  • In the History section, "Dorset had fallen under Saxon control and incorporated into the Kingdom of Wessex" - the word "been" should be inserted before "incorporated".
    Done--Ykraps (talk) 15:02, 13 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Are you sure about the "Bloody Assizes" taking place over 5 days? Jeffreys' ODNB article indicates a much longer period.
    Judge Jeffreys presided over more than one assizes. The one in Dorchester, I'm pretty sure lasted five days.--Ykraps (talk) 15:02, 13 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • We have "unitary authorities" and "Unitary Authorities". Caps or no caps?
    Done - I would say not. I found one instance, are there more?--Ykraps (talk) 15:17, 13 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would avoid using "plus" as a connector. A comma after (not including Bournemouth and Poole) would make it redundant
    Done--Ykraps (talk) 15:25, 13 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Perhaps "a relatively sparse population" would be more accurate?
    Done--Ykraps (talk) 15:31, 13 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "a slightly higher than average mortality rate" Hmmm, the rate is actually 30% higher than for Eng & W, so you may wish to reconsider "slightly"
    Done--Ykraps (talk) 15:40, 13 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Perhaps define more clearly what you mean by "migrants" in "a net influx of migrants contributed to an overall growth of the population by 12.2%" and elsewhere. Not just from overseas, I assume?
    No, anyone migrating to and from the county. Clarified now I think.--Ykraps (talk) 16:08, 13 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • You account for the overall growth of the population of 12.2% between 1991 and 2010. I'm not sure what data this is calculated from, since you don't give figures for 2010. What I do notice from the figures, however, is that in the 20 years prior to 1991 the county's population raose by 25%. Do we know the reason for this?
    I have added a footnote which I hope explains how the 2010 figures are calculated. As to your second point, Dorset's population increase is primarily due to immigration but why there was such an increase between those years, I'm afraid I don't know.--Ykraps (talk) 20:31, 14 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • The word "ceremonial" occurs in the lead, describing Bournemouth's and Poole's relations to the county, but then we have "ceremonial purposes" three times in the text. That is probably two times too many.
    It now appears in the lead and the politics section only.--Ykraps (talk) 07:25, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "It is controlled by the Conservative Party..." The pronoun is insufficient; should be "The council..."
    Done--Ykraps (talk) 09:34, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • The first two paragraphs of the "Economy and industry" section are somewhat overstuffed with figures and I quickly got confused. For example, in the first paragraph, "In 2003 ... Primary industry produced 2.03% of GVA", but in the second paragraph, GVA for primary industry in 2003 appears to be 4%. Maybe I'm reading it wrongly, but there is confusion.
    The first paragraph is an overview of the entire county which includes Bournemouth and Poole. The second paragraph is concerned with the decline in agriculture which is more about the administrative county, as little farming occured in the mainly urban areas of the two UAs; hence the difference between the two figures you mention.--Ykraps (talk) 09:32, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Update the "will be used" and similar phrasing concerning the 2012 Olympics. Incidentally, this information is given in both the "Economy and industry" and "Culture" sections
    I have updated both sentences. I understand that mentioning it twice may seem to be labouring the point but it is only mentioned briefly in the economy section to explain why Weymouth received such massive investment recently.--Ykraps (talk) 07:48, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Sum total" is unnecessarily verbose
    Done--Ykraps (talk) 17:27, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Perhaps explain, concerning tourism, that 2008 is the last year for which detailed figures are available (assuming that to be the case)
  • "The manufacturing industry..." → "Manufacturing industry..."
    Done--Ykraps (talk) 17:27, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nitpicking, but I'm not sure that a sector can be described as an employer. People are employed in, not by, a sector.
  • Is it necessary to list this many museums? Two or three "others" would suffice.
  • "Several other writers have called Dorset home" - imprecise; if they came from Dorset, say so, e.g. "Several other writers have lived in Dorset"
  • Maybe too many local writers listed as examples? Some of them are hardly well known, and their books even less so.
  • "not to have a single motorway" - "single" is redundant
    Done--Ykraps (talk) 17:18, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Again on the question of necessary detail, do we need all the road connections?
  • It would be nice to know the saint whose relics are in St Candida and Holy Cross
  • "the first freestanding Roman Catholic church built in England since the Reformation." For "since" read "after"
    Done--Ykraps (talk) 17:18, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Completed in 1789, George III gave permission to erect the building..." Rephrase (George III wasn't completed in 1789)
    Done--Ykraps (talk) 17:21, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "because of" is generally more elegant than "due to" ("due to excessive surplus school places"). And consider "excessive surplus"?
    Done--Ykraps (talk) 17:57, 15 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Congratulations on a fine effort in article enhancement. Brianboulton (talk) 20:30, 12 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Image check (partial). i have looked at licencing of the photos in the article including, where applicable, checking the licencing of originals at Flickr and geograph. All of these images appear in order. I have not considered maps. The site from which the flag image was sourced states that, to be on their site, "The design must be in the public domain, ie. not subject to copyright". I don't have the expertise to express an opinion about whether a design being free of copyright is the same thing as an image being free of copyright, but assuming that they are the same thing, the flag image is in order. hamiltonstone (talk) 03:00, 17 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.