Wikipedia talk:Notability - Wikipedia


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Before assessing if a subject has enough notability to create an article, check out if they have been assessed at Wikipedia:Source assessment first.

Discussion of a related proposal at Wikipedia:WikiProject Numbers/Guidelines has led me to notice that Wikipedia:Notability (numbers) (an established notability guideline) does not say anything about its relation to WP:GNG. Other notability guidelines relate to GNG in different ways: most establish a presumption of notability that must be confirmed through GNG, but WP:NCORP (for instance) is more strict than GNG in what it allows to count as significant coverage, and WP:PROF (for instance) is explicit that it stands separately from GNG.

So what is the relation between Notability (numbers) and GNG? Should that relation, whatever it is, be stated explicitly in Notability (numbers)? —David Eppstein (talk) 23:03, 13 August 2024 (UTC)Reply

Keeping in mind that we do not have a hard defining relationship between the SNGs and the GNG, I don't think we need to force the numbers notability guideline to necessarily acknowledge the GNG. The guideline does infer notability of numbers comes from significant coverage of those numbers, but the type of sourcing or demonstration of that is highly tuned to the math and numerology fields. There probably should be a brief statement to say that wp considers a number notable for a standalone page as long as there is significant coverage of it, and the page narrowly describes how to determine that. So it should like to the purpose of WP:N but not necessarily to the GNG — Masem (t) 23:39, 13 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
While WP:Notability (numbers) does not specifically mention GNG, it does repeatedly call for published material… and if there is published material then surely GNG is complied with. I don’t think it necessary to spell it out. Blueboar (talk) 00:06, 14 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
I think it clearly falls into the NCORP camp of being more strict than GNG, since it limits the kind of significant coverage required to particular types of publications. I think the relationship should be stated because more clarity is always a good thing. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:30, 14 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
I agree with voorts (and Masem) that NNUMBER, like NCORP, is more strict than GNG by establishing stricter sourcing requirements. It could also be understood as defining aspects of WP:NOT for its topic, the way NFILM also does. I'm not sure of the extent of advantage to be gained by defining this relationship within the guideline, though. Newimpartial (talk) 09:10, 14 August 2024 (UTC)Reply
So that we don't get talk page discussions like this every few years when people have the same question. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:21, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Should all British National rail stations be presumed notable as an exception to WP:NTRAINSTATION? —Matrix(!) {user - talk? - uselesscontributions} 16:42, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

This is a follow-up to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Riddlesdown railway station, to which the main argument was that we have an article for every National Rail train station, so they should not be deleted for consistency. A previous discussion that may be useful is the original discussion that led to NTRAINSTATION

Main outcomes include:

  1. All British National rail stations are inherently notable, and establish this as a subject-specific notability guideline and an exception to WP:NTRAINSTATION
  2. British National rail stations do not have inherent notability, and must be evaluated individually under GNG or any other subject-specific notability guidelines.

—Matrix(!) {user - talk? - uselesscontributions} 16:42, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

A related topic: This problem also seems pervasive in the train stations of other countries, like List of railway stations in Pakistan. Regarding the discussion regarding the British train stations, should 1, the many of the train stations in List of railway stations that don't meet WP:NTRAINSTATION face deletion? A much simpler option would be to 2, change notability requirements for train stations. Pygos (talk) 09:01, 17 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
If you can't find sources for an article about a railway station after looking for sources (including in books in the local language, which is where the majority of sources are going to be) then it should be merged to the next higher level article (usually the article about the line or system it's on). Thryduulf (talk) 10:12, 17 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
There may be sources that exist in these articles, like for Khost railway station, there's a reference to https://herald.dawn.com/news/1398873 , but such a source didn't show anything useful beyond the fact that the railway station exists (by the way, it doesn't seem to meet WP:SECONDARY). And such sources certainly don't adhere to WP:NTRAINSTATION. However, plenty of the railway stations only have sources of such levels, so should I merge them all? If I were to merge them, should I first put up AfDs or simply carry it out (which I'm certain will be offensive to many editors)? Pygos (talk) 12:19, 17 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Firstly this discussion is about railway stations in Great Britain, so a railway station in Pakistan is off-topic. Secondly, did you read what I wrote about sources that are offline and/or not in English. Thirdly, you cannot do research for one station and then apply the results to a whole set of stations. Thryduulf (talk) 13:06, 17 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Sorry, then I will resort discussions of the topic to Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Stations. I just wanted to mark that the problem resides beyond British and Pakistani train stations though (like [[Category:Railway stations in Malaysia]), so I seek a standardized solution to all the alike problems. Pygos (talk) 13:21, 17 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
I agree with Thryduulf, but I add: Ask for help. If you can't find sources for an article about a railway station after looking for sources (including in books in the local language, which is where the majority of sources are going to be) then – the problem might be with "you can't find them" rather than "no reliable sources have ever been published". This is an area that Wikipedia does best when people work together, rather than one person thinking their result is definitive. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:16, 18 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Survey re Notability and British Rail stations

edit

  • Oppose, no "inherent" notability for anything. Either there is a substantial quantity of reliable and independent source material available about something, or there isn't. There are certain things (as some examples, national leaders or chemical elements) where there in practice will always be such material about each one, but that's not "inherent" notability either, it just so happens that each member of such a set is actually notable. We do not need any more "inherently notable" permastubs. If each station is actually notable, that's fine, and if some are not, then that's also fine; they can be covered in a list or the like instead of in a separate "article" that's really just a few factoids. Seraphimblade Talk to me 16:46, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    @Seraphimblade: Which permastubs are you thinking of? --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 21:10, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    GEOLAND is probably the worst offender there (though sports gave it a run for the money before it got reined in). But really any time there's been any kind of "inherent notability" arrangement, someone scrapes a database, and the result is a ton of permastubs. Seraphimblade Talk to me 22:07, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I wasn't asking about geoland or sports, and nor is this RfC. This RfC is specifically about British Rail stations, and that is what I am asking about. Which articles about British Rail stations are permastubs? --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 22:25, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Your attitude is rather unnecessary, given that my comment was about inherent notability in general, and you did not specify "British Rail" in your question, so I answered about places where concepts of "inherent notability" have led to that problem. I do not have, nor need, specific examples to be in opposition to what the RfC is asking. Seraphimblade Talk to me
    If your comment is not relevant to British railway stations then it's not relevant to this discussion and should be ignored. Thryduulf (talk) 23:21, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    It is. The RfC question is "Should British railway stations be considered inherently notable?". The comment I made was entirely relevant to that—specifically that no, they should not. I do not see how that would be anything but a directly relevant answer to the exact question being asked. Seraphimblade Talk to me 08:33, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    GEOLAND is probably the worst offender there (though sports gave it a run for the money before it got reined in). is not relevant to British railway stations. And you still haven't answered Redrose's question. Thryduulf (talk) 17:14, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
  • No. Things aren't special just because they're British, notwithstanding the large group of editors that seems to think everything that exists in Britain is notable. voorts (talk/contributions) 16:47, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
  • Option 1 - to my knowledge we have here a complete set of 2,597 stations and this provides consistency to the reader and makes information easier to add (I've improved many station articles that previously had poor sourcing). Opening the floodgates to AfDs for each of these individually is not a good use of editor time, will provide a less consistent experience for readers, and will discourage the addition of new sources information (eg accessibility improvements, changes to service levels, platform extensions). Garuda3 (talk) 16:48, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Opening the floodgates to AfDs for each of these individually is not a good use of editor time Let's delete all of them and recreate articles on only the notable ones (which probably amounts to a very low percentage of those 2,597 stations; I'd be surprised if 50 of them met GNG.)
    discourage the addition of new sources information (eg accessibility improvements, changes to service levels, platform extensions). Wikipedia is not a travel guide, railroad amenities database, or service map. voorts (talk/contributions) 16:55, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    There's easily more than fifty stations that meet WP:GNG. In fact probably the vast majority would do based on books, newspapers etc.
    on your second point, we do list service improvements (or reductions) and changes to platforms, bridges etc. this info is regularly available with good sources. This doesn't make us a travel guide. Garuda3 (talk) 16:58, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Are so many of these articles poorly sourced that it would open the floodgates? AusLondonder (talk) 17:19, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    It's not often that I agree (partially) with Garuda3, but I have to concur that There's easily more than fifty stations that meet WP:GNG. You could easily find more than 50 just in Greater London considering its extensive rail network and the Tube, and I say this as an American. Many if not most stations are notable. The issue I have personally is when editors say they're automatically notable just by virtue of existing and that Wikipedia policies don't apply. If anything, I'd be thrilled to have more train station articles on Wikipedia so long as they are referenced properly and meet GNG.
    There's no conspiracy afoot to bring thousands of articles to AfD. What is true is that there are edge cases. Stations that were open for a few years. Proposed but never built stations. Stations mostly lost to history. Former stations on the site of or near a current station where the best choice from an editorial perspective is to include the former and current station within the same article. And quite frankly the occasional station that just plain does not meet GNG. Prescribing that all train stations are automatically entitled to an article is foolish and should not be done. I don't care if that's how it was in 2004, it's 2024 now. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 21:01, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    At least 250 British stations are listed buildings, and if you read WP:NGEO a few paragraphs before the one on train stations, you will find the statement Artificial geographical features that are officially assigned the status of cultural heritage or national heritage, or of any other protected status on a national level and for which verifiable information beyond simple statistics is available, are presumed to be notable. So that is 250 stations that meet the criteria without any further argument, and that is 10% of the total. Incidentally, there are 400,000 listed buildings in England alone, and according to policy every one of them is automatically notable (although most don't actually have articles). That rather puts a discussion about 2,500 stations into perspective. -- chris_j_wood (talk) 15:20, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    So that is 250 stations that meet the criteria without any further argument, and that is 10% of the total. Incidentally, there are 400,000 listed buildings in England alone, and according to policy every one of them is automatically notable. Per the introductory paragraphs of NGEO, the section titled "Sources" on that page, and the section you're citing, adequate sourcing beyond the mere listing of a building is required to establish notability. Being listed alone, without more, does not warrant an article. voorts (talk/contributions) 16:18, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
  • Oppose / 2 There's nothing inherently different about British train station from train stations in other countries, so there's no reason they shouldn't be subject to the consensus of the prior RFC. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 16:51, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    To clarify this RFC appears to be asking for British train stations alone to be exemptes from WP:NTRAINSTATION, but train stations are train stations. Nothing about British train stations makes them different from the train stations found in other countries. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 16:53, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Well, I'm not asking for it (quite the opposite - I created this as a reaction to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Riddlesdown railway station). I saw that was the main argument against deletion and wanted to see if it is valid and I figured an RfC was the best way to do that. Just wanted to clear that up. —Matrix(!) {user - talk? - uselesscontributions} 17:08, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    The only seemingly valid argument in that AfD is the one saying the article passes GNG (I haven't checked the article to see if that's correct), the others appear to be based on the ideas already rejected by the prior RFC. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 22:07, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    @Matrix if you firced me to AfD a British station I'd probably pick a boring south London suburban station like those so I don't blame you. But even then I'd be surprised if nobody found enough decent sources. Stations specifically aren't really my thing but I'm aware of the volume of material on the UK rail network. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 21:13, 12 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Reading others comments I'll add I also don't expect any articles to go to AfD over this, there are endless reliable sources for British railways. Editors just need to show those sources. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 13:39, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
  • Option 2 no topic has inherent notability. It can likely be said there is good reason that all British rail stations have GNG notability due to the history of British rail and rail fans in the UK, but that simply means that when such articles are created they should show sourcing that trends towards the GNG. But this should NOT (ETA this key work) be taken as allowance to create a lot of stubs on stations with the expectation they can be shown note later. Masem (t) 17:11, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I could argue that Shippea Hill shouldn't have an article because of its low usage. However, it has been one of the quietest stations in Britain, and by looking at that article, its been reported by BBC, Guardian and Telegraph so it likely meets GNG (at least 3 reliable sources can be a safe bet). JuniperChill (talk) 17:28, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
  • Option 2 This AfD is effectively just a listing of arguments to avoid at deletion discussions. An absolute joke. No attempt to establish notability of the subject, just a complete rejection of our community-endorsed notability guideline for train stations. An RfC explicitly determined that train stations, in whatever country, are not notable simply because they exist or existed. Unfortunately AfD suffers from minimal participation and local consensus issues where a handful of participants prevent the overall consensus prevailing. A similar phenomenon has been observed with the false assertion that WP:ANYBIO #1 exempts recipients of many British honours from secondary source requirements, rather than providing a refutable likelihood. This seems a very British problem. Participants at the AfD repeatedly asserted that because it's a British railway station it must be notable. What about German, Brazilian, Chinese, or Indian railway stations? Any railway station without significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject should be taken to AfD, if those sources cannot be located. AusLondonder (talk) 17:14, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    As the one who started the previous RfC, I really wish this one wasn't necessary. But a certain group of editors have decided that community consensus doesn't apply to them. Without context, an RfC so narrowly focused as the current one seems silly. But editor behavior has required it. I'd rather this than ANI, at least. I don't want to single out British editors, but I haven't seen any other group of editors otherwise in good standing so willing to flout policy, guidelines, and community consensus around notability. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 21:06, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
  • Option 2 As proposer of the RfC I don't see how British train stations should be presumed notable per AusLondonder. —Matrix(!) {user - talk? - uselesscontributions} 17:22, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
  • Option 2 despite it's problematic wording There no such thing as "inherent notability" in Wikipedia so let's assume that they meant "presumed notability", and rail stations don't and shouldn't have it.North8000 (talk) 17:26, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Here's an example of a thoroughly discussed one: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Xingke Avenue station. A common argument is "we created a bunch of these in a walled garden, and so now we need to be consistent with what's in the walled garden. They end up with nothing but an "it exists" statement with the address and a train schedule. North8000 (talk) 17:32, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    @North8000: This RfC is specifically about British Rail stations. Xingke Avenue station isn't British. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 21:14, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I gave it as an example of a thorough example discussion about train stations.North8000 (talk) 15:13, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    That AfD is a perfect example as to why the original RfC was necessary, and by extension this one. Only one person supporting a keep actually tried to identify sources. If someone else had found another GNG qualifying source, that AfD might have closed differently, and I would be just fine with that. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 22:31, 12 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I got the term "inherent notability" from this RfC, and inherent in this case should mean the same as "presumed" —Matrix(!) {user - talk? - uselesscontributions} 17:33, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
  • Option 2, (edit conflict)while railway stations can be helpful to readers, I think its safe to say that it should fall under GNG. Just like why we don't have an article on YouTubers with over 1 million subs. Mumbo Jumbo with 9.4m subs is a good reason why something is popular, doesn't always deserve an article. It has been deleted not once, but twice. However, we do have an article on Geoff Marshall with 335k subs, a railfan youtuber as he's been reported by the BBC multiple times. JuniperChill (talk) 17:42, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
  • Option 2, with the caveat that I suspect every UK station meets the GNG anyway, given the volume of writing in English on UK railway topics. In that sense this RfC strikes me as a no-op; Option 2 reaffirms that status quo. I disagree emphatically with Voorts' suggestion that only fifty stations in the UK are notable and am curious what they're basing that on. Mackensen (talk) 17:50, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I doubt all nearly 3000 of the stations are notable. Also "writing on UK railway topics" broadly does not establish notability for each and every individual station. The main thing this RfC should establish is that arguments at AfD asserting all British railway stations are automatically notable without providing sources must be ignored and in fact be considered disruptive. AusLondonder (talk) 17:55, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I said I'd be surprised if 50 of them met GNG, not that only 50 of them actually meet GNG. I'm basing that on the fact that most railway stations in the world are small and not architecturally or culturally significant, and that most of what's written about individual railway stations are basic information like their schedules. voorts (talk/contributions) 18:08, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I agree. I'd guess 1% fully meet GNG and maybe 10% are "close enough" when given some leniency because they have a bit of a geographic component. The latter are when they have substantial sourcing with more depth of coverage. North8000 (talk) 20:12, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    @North8000 A topic meets the GNG or it doesn't. You're saying that articles on 2,700 railway stations in the UK do not meet the GNG. I'm assured by my colleague below that no one's contemplating a purge. Please explain what you envision the future of these articles to be. Mackensen (talk) 23:06, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    IMO nobody would would work on a mass purge. Maybe a few AFD's on current articles. The main thing is that it would reinforce/clarify that new articles are subject to that standard. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 00:19, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    If editors wish to take particularly poorly sourced individual articles to AfD, I'd support that but it's something that should happen over time, not heaps at once to overwhelm AfD or editors. AusLondonder (talk) 08:49, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Well... they really shouldn't. See WP:NEXIST. Notability doesn't depend on the number of sources WP:Glossary#cited in the article. It depends on the number of sources Wikipedia:Published in the real world. If you see poorly sourced individual articles on a subject that is likely to be notable (e.g., listed historical buildings or railway stations), then you could find and add sources yourself, or you could add a request like {{more sources}} to encourage other editors to do that work, but you shouldn't take it to AFD, because Wikipedia:Deletion is not cleanup. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:01, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
  • Option 1 per the arguments of Garuda3. Anyone salivating at the prospect of deleting lots of stations are likely to be disappointed, as the sheer volume of printed material on the British railway system is such that even minor stations will have mentions in multiple books/almanacs etc. So I doubt this will get very far, but it is certainly a big and pointless waste of editor time and energy. G-13114 (talk) 20:16, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    such that even minor station will have mentions in multiple books/almanacs etc. "Mentions" are generally not significant coverage, per WP:SIGCOV: "Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention". Being listed in a book or almanac, or even multiple books or almanacs, doesn't make a train station notable. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:19, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    (ec)Generally these end up with dealing with handling new articles rather that mass deletions, much less "salivating". But the question and criteria is in-depth coverage by a published independent source, not mentions. North8000 (talk) 20:22, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I have books which give at least a page or more of information regarding station's histories, architecture, layout etc. Given that most stations are 100+ years old, that's generally quite a lot of history. G-13114 (talk) 20:33, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    If a station has 1-2 pages of material in a source, that is something to invoke to establish GNG (or "close enough") compliance. That's not what I've seen at the bulk of these articles.North8000 (talk) 00:15, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Sources are required to exist, not be present in every article right now. Thryduulf (talk) 00:23, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
  • Moot. Whether the stations are inherently notable or not is not a relevant question, because they are all actually notable. Only some stations have easily googleable in-depth coverage online, probably circa most have in-depth coverage online when you spend time looking in detail but I have yet to see any evidence that any currently open National Rail station in Great Britain has no significant coverage when people take the time to actually look for offline sources rather than just assume that because the first two pages on Google are filled with results aimed at rail passengers that represents the sum-total of information out there. Thryduulf (talk) 20:47, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Of all the comments here, this one from @Thryduulf resonates the most with me. If you think that a British rail station has ever been created, even in some tiny town, without the nearest newspaper taking note of it – probably repeatedly, and probably the neighboring towns' papers, too, either to rejoice in the existence of a nearby service or to bemoan the fate that sent all that commercial bounty to another town – you've not been paying attention. Yes, it sometimes requires time and effort to find older sources. Yes, the article might need an editor whose source-finding skills (or perseverance) are a bit above average. But notability isn't restricted to "subjects for which Prof Google provides obvious sources". It's for sources that require knowing about railway magazines and newspapers archives and local history books, too. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:07, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    That's fine, in that case the station will pass GNG. That's all people are asking for. But articles without sources frankly shouldn't be created. The burden lies with the creator to add sources when creating articles. AusLondonder (talk) 08:45, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    @AusLondonder: Are there any articles about British Rail stations that are without sources? If so, who has been creating them? If it's a newbie who has never created an article at all, and this is their first attempt, let's help them out. If it's somebody with years of evidence who is WP:MEATBOTting out new unsourced articles, why are we not talking to them directly? --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 17:43, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Isn't the issue here that most od these articles were created two decades ago when sourcing/notability requirements were much looser, and now that some editors are bringing good faith AfD noms, the responses are "keep it must be notable" instead of actually providing those sources that are claimed to exist? voorts (talk/contributions) 17:48, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Probably not. Category:Railway stations in Great Britain contains 9,745 articles (subcat depth of 3), and it has only 18 articles in Category:Articles lacking sources. [1] I haven't checked the numbers for a while, but I believe that one unref'd article out of every ~550 is a lower rate of unref'd articles than average. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:08, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
  • Option 2 Full disclosure, I was the one who started the last train station notability RfC in 2022. I am dismayed to see people basically ignoring the consensus from that RfC. To those who claim "so much has been written about these stations that they're all notable!", I say it should be very easy to show significant coverage in a few sources and show GNG is met for a given station if this is true. People cried that all the train stations would be purged last time, and that has not happened. Hardly anyone was calling for that, and I certainly wasn't then and I am not calling for that now. It would not happen after this RfC either. Many, if not most active train stations are notable because they clear GNG on their own merits, not just because they are train stations. That is not a get out of jail free card to write stubs with 1 non-independent reference and then claim nobody can ever challenge said stubs on notability grounds. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 20:53, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
  • Option 2. This is far too specific and local of a category to have its own special notability cutout. They may well all be individually notable but that should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis through our regular notability guidelines rather than by fiat. —David Eppstein (talk) 23:32, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
  • Moot, per Thryduulf. I can see why someone would think a tiny rural halt or boring suburban station wouldn't be notable (as in the subject of in-depth coverage in reliable sources, not to be confused with "I personally don't think this is important") but there is a huge volume of literature on the UK railway network, including full-length books on rural branch lines. Openings and closures are extensively documented in the local press and the railway magazines. Of course, many of them are over 150 years old so that coverage may not be easily found online, but most public buildings or infrastructure of that age will be notable. I dislike the concept of inherent or presumed notability but if we had 2,500 AfDs I can't imagine many of them resulting in deletion. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 09:18, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Nobody's asking to have 2,500 AfDs. They're just asking that people not make spurious arguments during those AfD discussions. voorts (talk/contributions) 11:56, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    There's no need to make spurious arguments. The stations will almost all, if not all, be notable if anyone does the necessary research. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 13:07, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    This RfC was sparked by an AfD where many of the !votes were effectively "keep, every British train station is notable", notwithstanding the broader 2022 RfC that found no train station is inherently notable. voorts (talk/contributions) 13:30, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Every British railway station is notable. Not because they are inherently notable, but because so much has been written about them that in-depth sourcing is available for every single one if you take the time to look beyond page 2 of google. Thryduulf (talk) 17:09, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    See my latest comment in the discussion section below. voorts (talk/contributions) 17:45, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
  • Option 2 There is nothing specially encyclopaedic about British (or any other) railway stations, though in the UK they are so well covered by both historical and current news, and such an extensive literature has grown up around them, that it is hard to find one without decent coverage. We just need to go and find it, not create stubs and hope. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Verbarson (talk • contribs) 11:25, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    It's a bit of a moot point, as all the articles already exist. Garuda3 (talk) 12:29, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
  • Option 2 being British (and I should know) does not confer automatic notability, they should be subject to our policies like every other station. Slatersteven (talk) 11:31, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
  • Option 2 there is no such thing as inherent notability. As for this being moot, maybe. But, the trick will be finding this more than passing coverage rather than vapidly stating that it much exist somewhere. --Guerillero Parlez Moi 12:43, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
  • Option 2. I do not believe in the notion that they are inherently notable. Hypothetically if 200 stations exist, and 199 of them are notable and have coverage, and 1 does not have coverage at all and is not notable, it is not made notable by virtue of every other station being notable. Honestly, the idea that British stations in particular would be the exception to a rule feels a bit Anglocentric. Is every train station in Japan notable? Is every train station in China notable? India? Around the world? The argument presented is that a newspaper somewhere at some point surely mentioned it, and that much is also the case for most trainstations around the world and, yet, there is no exception being carved out for them. Inclusion in the encyclopedia required verifiability, and notability is established by verifiable sources. If such sources exist, they should be found and cited in the article, otherwise, it should not exist simply because "all the others do". --Brocade River Poems (She/They) 19:10, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    How in any way does deleting one station article in a set of 200 benefit readers? It's going to cause confusion as to why one article isn't there and make it harder for people to find the information they're looking for. Garuda3 (talk) 22:54, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    How in any way does deleting one station article in a set of 200 benefit readers? It's going to cause confusion as to why one article isn't there
    Because if there are no verifiable sources, it does not go in the encyclopedia. Per WP:Verifiability All material in Wikipedia mainspace, including everything in articles, lists, and captions, must be verifiable. Per WP:BURDEN The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material and per WP:N Information on Wikipedia must be verifiable; if no reliable, independent sources can be found on a topic, then it should not have a separate article.
    Likewise WP:NRV No subject is automatically or inherently notable merely because it exists. As WP:NOTDONE says, the Encyclopedia will never be finished, ergo, missing one station out of 200 is of no real harm. Carving out an exception for one specific country is wholly unnecessary. Brocade River Poems (She/They) 02:27, 12 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    It's possible for a subject to have "verifiable sources" and still "not meet the WP:GNG". WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:16, 12 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Yes, and in that case, it still doesn't belong in the encyclopedia even if all 199 other stations do. Brocade River Poems (She/They) 05:25, 12 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I believe you will find that WP:FAILN and WP:EP have different ideas about whether verifiable information belongs "in the encyclopedia". WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:26, 12 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Frankly, I do not understand what you are even arguing. If a subject fails WP:GNG, it usually doesn't have verifiable sources. None of what you are posting, or linking, contradicts what I have said. Material with no verifiable sources automatically fails WP:GNG and does not go in the encyclopedia. GNG quite literally says A topic is presumed to be suitable for a stand-alone article or list when it has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject.
    Per WP:RS Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published sources, making sure that all majority and significant minority views that have appeared in those sources are covered (see Wikipedia:Neutral point of view). If no reliable sources can be found on a topic, Wikipedia should not have an article on it.
    &&
    The policy on sourcing is Wikipedia:Verifiability, which requires inline citations for any material challenged or likely to be challenged, and for all quotations. The verifiability policy is strictly applied to all material in the mainspace—articles, lists, and sections of articles—without exception, and in particular to biographies of living persons, which states:
    Emphasis my own.
    Reliable sources are how we establish verifiability. If there are no verifiable sources the article ipso facto fails notability and does not belong in the encyclopedia. Saying if there are no verifiable sources the article does not go in the encyclopedia is not the same anything that is verifiable does.
    If a source does not have any verifiable sources, it is not notable. At no point did I say anything with a verifiable source goes in the encyclopedia. Brocade River Poems (She/They) 00:10, 13 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Hello, @BrocadeRiverPoems,
    Sorry for my confusing reply. I would have explained in more detail if I'd noticed earlier that your account is only six weeks old. We get used to talking in confusing WP:UPPERCASE jargon and forget that there are helpful new people trying to make sense of it.
    You are correct that everything must be WP:Glossary#verifiable. Verifiable means that at least one source has been WP:Published in the real world (←absolute requirement, all content, with zero exceptions), and that this source is considered "reliable" for the specific statement. It is the best practice (but not technically a requirement, except for four common and important types of content) to cite at least one reliable source that WP:Directly supports the specific statement.
    It's possible to have a source that is reliable for a given statement, but which does not confer notability. For example, {{Cite tweet}} is used for verifiability purposes in 41,000 articles, but it is not the kind of source that the WP:GNG accepts. Similarly, we use {{cite press release}} in 73,000 articles (and more press releases are cited without using the template), but a press release never counts towards notability.
    For example: if the sentence is "Mayor Ma announced that she is retiring", then you could cite that to a social media post or press release from Mayor Ma herself. Those sources would be reliable. But the mayor talking about herself does not make her notable (←no Wikipedia:Separate, stand-alone article about her).
    When you have sources that verify the content but do not confer notability, then it is sometimes best to put the content in a related article about a notable subject. For example, if we decide that Mayor Ma is not notable, then perhaps we would put the verifiable information in an article about the Mayors of Smallville or in Smallville#Mayors. That approach keeps in the information "in the encyclopedia" without creating an article on a non-notable subject. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:32, 13 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Understood! Thank you! Brocade River Poems (She/They) 04:37, 13 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Your answer doesn't address how it benefits readers. We're talking about a completed set here so you're not preventing any new articles being created. What is the benefit to readers of deleting one article in a completed set? I can name some drawbacks:
    • Inconsistency - there may be confusion as the casual reader expects to find a page (through Wikipedia or through Google) but there isn't one there
    • Wasted editor time arguing about deletion and then having to restore the article should we decide we actually do want an article on the subject
    • The article won't appear in Special:Nearby making it harder to discover for people who use that feature
    Garuda3 (talk) 08:10, 12 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    This isn't about deleting any article, though, and is grossly offtopic. This is about whether or not the British National Rail should get special privileges. Nothing is innately notable. WP:NOTEVERYTHING. There is no requirement to have a complete set of anything if it is not notable. Notability is the basic requirement for inclusion. If it is inherently notable on the basis that a source exists somewhere, then find the source. An article doesn't get to exist just because other articles of a similar nature exist. There is nothing inherently special about British railway stations that necessitates carving out an exception specifically for them. It borders on WP:NATIONALIST to infer that the British National Rail system is somehow exceptional compared to every other rail system, so much so that it is above the rules which everything else is held to. You are arguing about how does it help the user, and I am telling you that according to policy having unverified information hurts the encyclopedia. Brocade River Poems (She/They) 00:01, 13 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    There is no unverified information here - National Rail has information on all stations. Train Operating Companies will have information on the stations they serve. We have photos of every station. It's not exceptional because it's British, its exceptional because all articles already exist. The reason why this RfC was setup in the first place was because an article was nominated for deletion and the result was keep - it's clear this is about wanting to delete articles. Garuda3 (talk) 09:24, 13 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    @BrocadeRiverPoems I think you're confusing notability (which tries to be an objective standard) with importance (which is subjective). This group of objects is notable in the sense that (almost?) all are the subject of significant coverage in reliable, independent sources. I would imagine most stations in most other countries are probably notable as well because transport infrastructure tends to be well written about. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 12:51, 13 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
  • Option 2. I will never accept the notion of inherent notability in any topic area and will oppose that concept whenever it comes up. And the notion that only British train stations are inherently notable as opposed to train stations in France or Germany or Spain or any other country is utterly bizarre. The English Wikipedia is the English language encyclopedia of the entire world, not the encyclopedia of the English speaking world. Cullen328 (talk) 23:28, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    British railway stations being inherently notable would not imply anything about railway stations in any other part of the world. Thryduulf (talk) 08:54, 12 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    It would imply that Wikipedia is Anglo-centric and makes special exceptions for British culture. voorts (talk/contributions) 11:44, 12 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Why on earth do you get that impression? X being inherently notable implies nothing about whether things that are not X are or are not inherently notable. It's a simple statement of provable fact that all British railway stations are notable based on the coverage in independent reliable sources. I would be surprised if the same were not true of some other country's stations too (I don't know enough about the literature regarding railways in other countries to be sure, but remember one would need to look at e.g. French language sources to determine this for France.). Thryduulf (talk) 11:50, 12 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    There is a big difference in principle between "we have checked all examples of X and they all happen to meet our general notability standards" and "we are going to declare that all X are automatically notable and are not subject to our general notability standards", even when the outcome (that all X are notable) does not differ. —David Eppstein (talk) 13:18, 12 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    There should though be some way of communicating we have checked all examples of X and they all happen to meet our general notability standards to editors such that they don't waste their and others time nominating them for deletion. Whether you call that "inherent notability" or something else, the effect is the same. Thryduulf (talk) 20:35, 12 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    One way to communicate that would be to make sure that all those articles actually cite as references all of those in-depth sources that surely exist. Nominators are supposed to follow WP:BEFORE and find those references themselves but we all know they often don't. —David Eppstein (talk) 11:45, 13 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Obviously all the articles citing the sources is ideal, but Wikipedia is a work in progress and there are far more stations than editors with access to those sources so even if everybody dropped everything else and worked full time on improving only articles about current National Rail stations it would take some time get it to that state (and articles about other notable subjects will be deleted in the meanwhile as these editors would not be defending them at AfD). Thryduulf (talk) 12:26, 13 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Create an SNG that says that. Also, has someone checked every single British rail station for notability? At least one good faith AfD nominator couldn't find sources during their BEFORE search, given the AfD that lead to this RfC, and others claiming that most British railroad stations are notable here have admitted during this discussion that there are at least a some British rail stations that lack notability. Finally, we have checked all examples of X is in the eye of the beholder: there would have to be some sort of consensus, rather than a LOCALCON amongst editors who focus on Britain/railroads, that the sources that have been found do in fact establish notability. That does not exist right now. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:42, 12 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    An AfD nominator not finding sources during a BEFORE search is not evidence of a lack of sources, especially given the comments about how insubstantial the check is required to be (as much as something robustly asserted to be option can be said to be required). Thryduulf (talk) 20:50, 12 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    An AfD nominator not finding sources during a BEFORE search is not evidence of a lack of sources I am not saying that and I agree with that point. If you want people to have to do a SUPER-BEFORE search before bringing an AfD for a British railroad station, establish a consensus for that. Otherwise, once the BEFORE search is done, the burden shifts to the keep !voters to establish notability. As I have noted in other parts of this discussion, that means they need to say more than "every British railroad station is notable"; they need to actually provide some citations to SIGCOV in reliable sources. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:56, 12 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    The problem with WP:BEFORE is this: you can't prove a negative. If somebody says "there are no sources for this claim", you don't know whether it actually means "I have spent several days checking various websites, books, magazines etc. and cannot find a single published source that supports the claim" or "I can't be bothered looking properly so instead I'll say that there are no sources, even if perhaps there really are". Also, when they say "there are no sources for this claim", this will be defeated by the first person to find a reliable source which does support the claim. Negatives can't be proved, only disproved. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 19:40, 13 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    That's how the AfD system works. We presume that the nominator has done a good faith BEFORE search, and if nobody comes forward with a valid argument to keep or sources demonstrating notability, we delete the article or enact some other ATD. voorts (talk/contributions) 19:54, 13 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Also how the AfD system works: If you get a reputation for nominating articles about notable subjects for which sources are easily found, then we can WP:TBAN you. It takes a lot to reach this point, but it is possible. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:21, 18 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
  • Option 2, which in effect means that option 1 covers 99%+ of all railway stations in the British Isles, even the smallest and those that never opened. Mjroots (talk) 07:36, 12 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
  • Obviously Option 2, but this is moot - the level of literature that exists on British railway infrastructure and stations means that there will always be sources easily passing GNG for any station. As an example, my local station has only five trains a day, is used by <10 people a day on average, is pretty much in the middle of nowhere and yet its article has eight good sources, including five books. Black Kite (talk) 19:46, 12 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Who's publishing these books? Rail enthusiast organizations? The railroad itself? Academic presses? Did the books go through rigorous editorial processes or are they yarns spun by local historians? voorts (talk/contributions) 20:44, 12 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Taking a random small station, Brading railway station, as an example there are no sources by enthusiasts, local historians, or any of the companies that have operated trains there. The two books sources were written by a respected author and subject matter expert published by a respected publishing house. Of the other sources, several are from Historic England, several from news sources including BBC News and a local news website (whose standing I don't know), one source by the current tennant of the station buildings is used to verify the current use of the station buildings and one from National Rail (semi-independent of the operator) is being used only to verify the current service level and pattern. Thryduulf (talk) 21:08, 12 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Thank you. I hope you can see why it's kind of frustrating when these discussions rely on claims about how all these sources about British rail stations exist, but only provide those sources when they're asked to. The burden is not on everyone else to become familiar with British railroad stations and the books about them. If the keep !votes in the AfD that sparked this RfC had provided sources in the first place instead of relying on "keep, this thing is notable because all of them are notable", then we wouldn't be here having this discussion. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:12, 12 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    The problem is that, while some (and perhaps even most) small stations have plenty of sources to establish notability (I don’t think anyone was arguing that this doesn’t happen), we can not say that they all have similar sources.
    The question is “what to do about those that DON’T have proper sourcing?” Blueboar (talk) 21:51, 12 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    If there are any stations that don't have proper sourcing (and given that despite being repeatedly asked to, nobody has yet provided an example of a current National Rail station that fits this criteria) then we should do for every other non-notable member of a notable set of which at least a significant proportion of members are notable (something that unquestionably applies here): merge and redirect to the the most appropriate higher-level article (for railway stations that is usually the line or system they're a part of). The only exception to this would be if we couldn't verify the existence of the station, but even the first page of google hits will verify the existence of a current National Rail station, and The Directory of Railway Stations means that the existence of very nearly every station that existed prior to 1995 can be trivially verified. Thryduulf (talk) 23:08, 12 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    If by "proper sourcing" Blueboar means something closer to "little blue clicky numbers already in the article", rather than e.g., "reliable sources in the library", and if I couldn't find sources myself, then I think for higher-income countries, I'd probably ask at Wikipedia:WikiProject Trains before starting an AFD.
    That said, I once picked a long-defunct railroad station off a map somewhere in the middle of the US and had sources in hand within minutes. In my experience, it is not that hard to find sources, especially if your search strategy is more sophisticated than "Go to www.google.com and see what's on the first page". WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:10, 13 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    @Voorts: but only provide those sources when they're asked to - I have hundreds (not kidding) of books concerning the railways of Great Britain, but I really don't have time to go through every single one of our articles about British Rail stations, and add sources. I don't want to do a half-arsed job, so one by one is the best you can hope for. Name a station, and I'll work on it. But don't pretend that because I've not added sources at a different station's article that automatically means that I don't have the sources. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 07:53, 13 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I'm talking about the context of an AfD discussion. I'm not asking you or anyone else to go fix every article right now. If an article is nominated at AfD, you should pull out your books and provide RSes to substantiate your keep !vote so that other editors can take a look at the sources and see if they agree that those sources meet GNG. We operate on consensus, not promises of "I have sources, they provide SIGCOV, but I don't have time to share them or even name them right now". voorts (talk/contributions) 17:12, 13 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    If you're going to !vote keep, your burden is to provide evidence of SIGCOV in RSes. voorts (talk/contributions) 17:14, 13 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    @Voorts: Also, re If the keep !votes in the AfD that sparked this RfC had provided sources in the first place instead of relying on "keep, this thing is notable because all of them are notable" - does this mean that my making these edits after my !vote renders my !vote invalid? --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 15:09, 13 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Yes. You could have made the edits first and given a policy based rationale for keeping instead of making several arguments listed at arguments to avoid. voorts (talk/contributions) 17:09, 13 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I disagree.
    I sometimes list sources in the AFD discussion; there is a poorer chance of those sources getting added to the article than I could wish. Other times, I add them to the article but don't name them in the AFD. There is no reason to think that one approach demonstrates notability better than the other, and it's just silly to say that the order of the edits, especially when the edits are made within an hour of each other, makes any difference at all.
    The fact is that there are subjects for which notability is widely understood to be demonstrable. You do not need to show up at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Earth with a new list of sources. Anyone familiar with the subject area knows what the outcome will be. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:26, 18 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
  • Option 2—absolutely, undeniably obviously. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 10:25, 16 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Why is it "undeniably obviously"? Given that there are good faith arguments given above for option 1, it clearly isn't either undeniable or obvious to everyone. Thryduulf (talk) 10:28, 16 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Option 1 per Garuda and G-13114. Cremastra (talk) 02:03, 17 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Option 2. We have no evidence that 95%+ of these stations are likely to meet GNG. Bare assertions that they do, based on the assumption that they would have garnered local press, are not evidence, they are personal opinions. The status quo -- achieved recently, via very wide consensus -- is to require GNG be met, so the onus is entirely on anyone wishing to change it to demonstrate the change is warranted. JoelleJay (talk) 23:02, 17 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Option 2. They do not have inherent notability but can be included in a list of stations as suggested by several other editors. CurryCity (talk) 20:15, 20 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Option 2. Per the general rule of no inherent notability and taking WP:BURDEN seriously is the foundation on which content policies can even begin to function. Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:48, 21 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
  • I don't much agree with the current notability guidelines, but if there was consensus about it, then... ok (I don't know how much time needs to pass before you can try to change the existing consensus). But British National rail stations are not inherently notable simply because they are British. Regarding consistency for a reader, all content about non-notable stations should be merged into one general article about the line/route.--Oloddin (talk) 23:38, 23 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Discussion re Notability and British Rail stations

edit

Is it worthwhile pinging participants of the prior RFC? -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 16:54, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Probably not. I would advertise this at TCENT and VPP. voorts (talk/contributions) 16:55, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
I've advertised this at VPP, I think TCENT is unnecessary since it's not that big of a policy change. —Matrix(!) {user - talk? - uselesscontributions} 20:29, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

I only have a moment before I have to log off, but before I prepare a more considered response in the next few days could I ask please what sort of sources would be considered reliable sources that are independent of the subject (my emphasis) in this context? Or, to turn it round, what sort of sources would not be considered sufficiently independent? I am thinking particularly of book sources, not online sources. Hassocks5489 (Floreat Hova!) 17:51, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Same as any other case, really—was the source (in this case the book) written and published independently of the rail operator? If someone who studies mass transit or the like, but is unaffiliated with the railway operator and was not directed in what they were doing by them, writes a book, that's an independent source. Similarly if, for instance, someone unaffiliated with the railway writes a book about the history of an area, and mentions the importance of the train station in context of that, then that would be independent. If the railway writes or publishes a book, or commissions someone to do so, that is not independent. Seraphimblade Talk to me 18:07, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
There's quite extensive scholarship around trains pretty much everywhere, but the British in particular love writing about them. You can find reliable secondary sources on almost anything regarding trains in the U.K. These are books often written by enthusiasts, but if there are the things we normally look for like editorial control and independence they are absolutely usable sources. There are also many periodicals which can be used as sources. I'm American so I can't really name any in particular, but there are sources out there for most train stations. What we can't use are things like timetables or self-published fan sites. Directory or database listings seldom mean anything for GNG. There are directories of every station to ever exist in the U.K., but if all they have is an opening and closing date and where the station was located, that doesn't help notability at all. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 21:11, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Hassocks5489: Can you point to any articles about British Rail stations that are based purely on non-independent sources? If you can't, can you suggest any where the majority of the content is from non-independent sources? --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 21:26, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
I haven't looked in detail at any station articles since this discussion started, as I have been away from home; I just wanted to seek clarification over what "independent" means in relation to this particular topic, and Seraphimblade's comment confirmed that what I thought was correct. I didn't want to start listing books that have substantial coverage (or using them to edit station articles) only to find that they were not considered independent. Hassocks5489 (Floreat Hova!) 08:17, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

I'm one of those old school Wikipedia editors who cannot believe that these discussions are being held. Having created some of those articles right at the start of my Wikipedia 'career' I watched as the format editors created alongside me was adopted for all 2,000+ stations here and overseas. To now consider that all that work is to be expunged is deeply depressing. This is not what Wikipedia was supposed to be about. doktorb wordsdeeds 18:59, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Notability guidelines were way looser back then, and for better or for worse, the community has tightened them up. voorts (talk/contributions) 20:17, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
In most (but not all) cases, significantly for the worse. Thryduulf (talk) 20:56, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Complete agreement. We worked to make an encyclopedia. Now apparently it's just a greatest hits. Disappointed. doktorb wordsdeeds 22:18, 10 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
An encyclopaedia is not for original writing. For our own credibility as a source what we publish simply must be verified by reliable sources. AusLondonder (talk) 08:51, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Doktorbuk: "all that work is to be expunged is deeply depressing" - are you suggesting that all or most of the railway station articles that exist in Britain currently do not demonstrate meeting GNG and even with a search for sources won't meet GNG? AusLondonder (talk) 08:54, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
I'm saying that I can see where the wind is blowing. Wikipedia is no longer about being encyclopedic, it's clearly about mass deletion of work which doesn't fit very narrow, very exclusive "notability" guidelines. Having articles showing each and every UK railway station is what this place used to promote, including building projects and cooperation. Now it's about pressing delete. I'm too tired and depressed to fight against the new era of this website. Of course we should keep every single UK railway station article, they're a long standing central core of an encyclopedia. But if that makes me an outdated dinosaur, I'm too old to battle against consensus. doktorb wordsdeeds 11:51, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
We used to have articles on each individual Pokemon species too, but we've since tighten our belt to avoid looking like a pop culture catalog. Instead, we want to make sure we serve a broad readership, making sure that we have standalone articles based on significant coverage where possible, and using lists where that cant be done (as would be the case for rail stations). At the same time, UK rail history has been discussed in numerous sources, so that there is a strong likelihood every station could have a standalone page, there just needs to be enough evidence to show that trend towards meeting the GNG for these. If they can't be shown, they can be moved into a list, and we'd still cover them too. Masem (t) 12:02, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Drawing parallels between UK railway stations and Pokémon is ridiculous. doktorb wordsdeeds 12:19, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Not really, both are areas where there are dedicated people extremely well versed in the area and likely have caraloged lots of information gleamed from primary sources that they could write guides on every single one, but where in many cases there is a lack of significant coverage in secondary sources to show us why one specific instance has drawn attention from reliable sources. We allow those article with such coverage to remain and collaose the rest to lists with future potential to expand if more sour ING can be found, using soft redirects to preserve the original articles. — Masem (t) 15:11, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
I'm sorry that you feel defeated here, but the requirement that there be at least two or three secondary, independent and reliable sources that significantly cover a topic is not narrow or very exclusive. voorts (talk/contributions) 11:54, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Doktorbuk: Should we have articles for every train station in Japan, Germany, India and China? That's around 30,000 articles. I'd argue no country is exempt from GNG, we should have articles only for stations in any country demonstrated to meet GNG. AusLondonder (talk) 12:58, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
I don't know enough about the literature about stations in those countries, but every topic that meets the GNG should have an article. If that means we have an article about every railway station in those countries then that's a good thing. Thryduulf (talk) 17:12, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
While we have to keep in mind things like WP:NOPAGE, I'm generally in agreement with Thryduulf here. I can't speak as to if the sourcing is there for those stations, but personally I have no opposition to train station articles so long as they meet GNG. For example, we are better off as an encyclopedia by having Beijing railway station as an article than if we did not. It would be pretty weird for someone with my username to want to delete all the train stations. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 23:39, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
@AusLondonder as I say, I feel deflated and beaten by discussions like this, so really you can do what you will at this point. I created these articles, worked with editors to promote the articles, and now you've come along to delete them all. I'm one man. Just one editor. I've no power. I've no strength. I've no fight. You've won. Delete, delete, delete, you're the victor, I used to matter and I used to count. Wikipedia isn't for creators anymore, you're in charge now. doktorb wordsdeeds 18:20, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Wikipedia isn't for creators anymore I find it rather insulting (as do others in this discussion, I am sure) to be painted as someone who only cares about deleting things just because I don't think British train stations (or any others for that matter) should be exempt from our notability policies. I have spent easily hundreds of hours of my time creating and expanding articles. AusLondonder has created several hundred articles. It is simply unfair to label anyone who disagrees with you as an evil deletionist who doesn't care about building an encyclopedia. Being a doomer about Wikipedia doesn't achieve anything. If you choose to stop creating articles or editing altogether, that's your choice, but nobody is kicking you out. I certainly don't think you giving up will help the encyclopedia. And for the record, only one editor here is calling for mass deletions of train station articles, and I commented in opposition to them. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 23:33, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
You should have checked for sources on Riddlesdown Station before you nominated it and after closing the AfD as Keep because you didn't like the thrust of the discussion re-nominating it shortly after could be seen as disruptive in my view, Atlantic306 (talk) 18:42, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
@Atlantic306: Per above, I did try to check sources. If everyone is saying "keep" there's no point letting the discussion drag on. But of course new information will occur in this RfC that might invalidate previous arguments, and therefore we may re-nominate it. Unrelated sidenote, but if you could avoid run on sentences this would improve your clarity in the future. —Matrix(!) {user - talk? - uselesscontributions} 18:49, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Thanks for the grammar link. Where is the guideline that suggests the nominator can close an AfD in order to renominate it later when it has been given more publicity ? Atlantic306 (talk) 19:00, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
As long as no other editor has advanced a delete or redirect rationale, an editor may withdraw their AfD nomination and close it as speedy keep. voorts (talk/contributions) 19:15, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Agree, it's the re-nominating shortly after that is problematic in my view Atlantic306 (talk) 19:21, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Such re-nominations tend to result in people digging in their heels, and more people piling on with accusations that the nom has WP:IDHT problems. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:16, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
@WhatamIdoing: to be honest I withdraw my idea to renominate the article given the sourcing by Redrose64. I do think it is helpful to have this RfC though to avoid future arguments like those present in the initial AfD. —Matrix(!) {user - talk? - uselesscontributions} 17:32, 12 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
  • If all this sourcing exists, then we do not need a special exception as they will pass anyway. Slatersteven (talk) 17:11, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Agree. Some editors have made claims like "I have a dozen books on British railroada that give each station at least 2 pages of coverage" (these books must be at least 10k pages, since presumably they cover other things), but nobody has provided a cite to a single book in this discussion as far as I can see. voorts (talk/contributions) 17:42, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    Very few books will cover every railway station. Consider: there are presently a little over 2,500 railway stations in Great Britain. If one book were to devote one page to each individual station, that book (if printed on 80 gsm paper) would be about five inches thick. It would be much thicker if it also included the thousands of stations that were once open but are now closed. Rather, there are books about railway companies, or railway lines, that often describe the individual stations. There's a prolific series from Middleton Press that has now passed 600 books, and Riddlesdown, the original trigger for this, is given coverahe in their book Country Railway Routes: Croydon to East Grinstead - including Woodside to Selsdon along with 17 other stations or locations. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 17:59, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
  • Quick count on my shelves is that I have 80 books tagged as 'railway line histories', i.e. those that will be specifically listing stations. Maybe two bookshelves of them. There are also books like Butt that are specifically directories of stations.
One point to remember is that there are very few really small British stations. Those that were are termed 'halts' rather than stations, and practice here (AFAIR) has always been that stations were assumed notable but that halts would have to demonstrate it individually (plenty of halts have been notable for some specific reason). Andy Dingley (talk) 19:34, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
While I have voted against the idea that British Railways are inherently notable, it is worth noting that there are verifiable sources that mention the station subject of the AfD. [2] [3][4] [5] Brocade River Poems (She/They) 20:03, 11 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

About the RFC: "The question" as shown on the RFC pages is IMO okay, but the expanded version underneath turns it into a Double-barreled question by introducing the concept of Wikipedia:Inherent notability. It also provides a False dilemma.

Editors are asked originally whether a specific small subset of articles should be exempt from the relevant SNG. Then this gets expanded and twisted, so that the options are not "Yes, exempt from the relevant SNG" versus "No, not exempt from the relevant SNG", but instead are "Inherently notable and exempt from the GNG" versus "Not inherently notable and must conform to the GNG". There is no space for "Nothing is inherently notable, but it's the SNG (which names three separate methods of qualifying, only one of which is the GNG) that applies", which I suspect is the actual majority POV in the community, much less for "Nothing is inherently notable, but there's no practical difference between inherent notability and the way I understand the GNG (which, for example, actually says that 'multiple sources are generally expected', rather than 'multiple sources are always required', even if editors like voorts sometimes claim the GNG has a 'requirement that there be at least two or three')".

I don't think this is a serious enough problem to re-write it, but anyone who tries to write a closing summary is going to have a more complicated task than was necessary. Editors can help the future closer by being as clear as possible about what they think, and avoiding overreliance on voting-type statements. WhatamIdoing (talk) 06:46, 12 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Huh? NTRAINSTATION itself uses the phrase inherently notable, says train stations are not that, and says they need to meet a relevant SNG or the GNG. Option 2 says the same thing. voorts (talk/contributions) 11:38, 12 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
You're right, Option 2 says that – but the editors discussing this don't. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:54, 12 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
People aren't bound to the exact text of an RfC option. A good closer will read what people are actually saying rather than closing the discuss as "25 bolded option 2s means those people support exactly waht option 2 says". People often agree to a proposition with caveats or proposed amendments, even in the best designed RfCs. voorts (talk/contributions) 18:31, 12 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
I also think my understanding of the GNG is pretty generally accepted, but I respect that others have different readings of it and occasionally I'm willing to IAR on that point; categorically exempting British railway stations is not one of those occasions. voorts (talk/contributions) 11:49, 12 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
We want to avoid saying "all X are inherently notable" as that will drive editors to create mass stubs as well as lead other editors to look for ways to identifies adjacent topics to type X as inherently notable too. It's fine if the practical effect of saying "inherent notability" and and SNG that presumes notability is the same, that all topics in X get articles, but at lease with the basis in an SNG, then we have less problems should the presumption fail and AFD is used. It's very hard to AFD a poor article if it falls under a claim of "inhereted notability" Masem (t) 13:43, 12 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
It's very hard to AFD a poor article if it falls under a claim of "inhereted notability" "poor articles" shouldn't be taken to AfD, they should be improved, but "inherited notability" and "inherent notability" are two very different things. Thryduulf (talk) 13:47, 12 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
I meant for AFD that if one did a proper BEFORE search and failed to find further sourcing for a stub created on basis of "inherent notability", it would still be difficult to have editors agree to delete or merge that at AFD. (and yes I did mean to stick to inherent notability in my statement above. We don't do inherited notability either but that's for different reasons) Masem (t) 14:05, 12 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Personally, I think that nothing – not chemical elements, not US presidents, not even Encyclopedia – is inherently notable, but I also think that editors sometimes use that language to say "Look, we've been through this before: anyone who does a thorough search will be able to find the sources, so if you haven't found them, that is more likely to indicate that your search skills are poor than to prove that the sources don't exist in the real world. Stop wasting our time with these AFDs, because they're not going to result in deletion". That can be a valuable thing for an AFD nom to hear, even if it's unpleasant and even if (IMO the more important failing) it could result in a story could around that some things qualify for articles merely because they exist. WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:59, 12 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Yes, that is how it operates, but sometimes those people are wrong and it's straight up not true that the thing people are claiming is inherently notable is in fact notable at all. Indeed, in this discussion, even the most railroad stations are notable crowd has admitted some of them are just not notable. A BEFORE search is not required to be extemeley in depth; we don't require editors to go to the local library or village archives and pour through microfiche. Telling good faith AfD noms that they're wrong and that X thing must be notable without providing evidence to substantiate that claim is basically gaslighting them. voorts (talk/contributions) 18:28, 12 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Nobody in this discussion is arguing that all railway stations are individually notable, just that every currently-open National Rail station in Great Britain has sufficient coverage in reliable sources that they are all notable (a very significantly lesser claim than your strawman). However, I've never seen an AfD for any subject that verifiably is or was a railway station located on a line or system that has an article result in deletion - every single one I am aware of has ended as "keep", "merge" or "redirect" and the same is true for most articles about future railway stations (certainly nothing where construction has started has been deleted). Thryduulf (talk) 20:43, 12 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
I"m not strawmanning; I thought it was implied that we were talking about British railroad stations, not global ones, given the topic of this RfC. However, I've never seen an AfD for any subject that verifiably is or was a railway station located on a line or system that has an article result in deletion - every single one I am aware of has ended as "keep", "merge" or "redirect" and the same is true for most articles about future railway stations (certainly nothing where construction has started has been deleted). That's fine, but I think it's beside the point, which is that editors think it sufficient to say "Keep, all railroad stations in Britain meet GNG" when there is no consensus that that is an adequate rationale in an AfD discussion for railroads in general; it appears that this RfC will now establish that such a carveout does not exist for British railroad stations. There's no harm in requiring editors to actually provide sources when a good faith AfD nomination is brought, instead of !votes that are effectively "trust me bro, I know of the existence of 15 books on railroad stations in Britain". voorts (talk/contributions) 20:51, 12 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
With 15 NPP'ers doing 90% of the reviews, and 10,000 article backlog, why would it be "valuable" to hear a complaint that somebody thinks that they didn't do an extensive enough wp:before? Doubly so when the person making the complaint hasn't looked for or found any GNG sources, which is usually the case. North8000 (talk) 18:40, 12 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
I often think that we need a WP:AFTER guideline to compliment WP:BEFORE - when an under-sourced article has survived an AFD (based on the fact that sources actually DO exist) it should be incumbent upon those who vote “Keep” to improve the article and actually add the relevant sources. Blueboar (talk) 12:24, 13 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Why only those who vote “Keep”? Surely the others are at least as concerned that the article is undersourced. Phil Bridger (talk) 12:41, 13 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
I've thought it through and am of two minds on wp:before. I think that it should still exist, but that w need to make it the norm that the main part of building a new article is finding and including suitable sources, and a norm for those advocating "keep" is to find and include them. Two reasons why wp:before is needed is that there are extreme deletionists out there, and the norm is that GNG-dependent articles don't meet the strictest interpretation of GNG, thus being vulnerable to extreme deletionists. But for NPP it causes problems in many ways, including people beating up overloaded NPP'ers instead of finding the sources that they claim exist. And for most of those, GNG sources don't exist, their "coverage exists" (note the omission of "GNG" before "coverage" ) claim is referring to non-GNG coverage. North8000 (talk) 13:13, 13 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
I am looking at this from the other side: You do a lousy BEFORE search (or skip it, because it's not actually required). You've spent 30 seconds on this.
I present you with a list of sources on the proverbial silver platter. It probably took me 15 to 60 minutes. Having already spent my time on a task I'm not interested in, and which I did only because your sloppy work set a seven-day timer was ticking, why shouldn't you have to go back to the article and add the sources?
Think of it as a form of penance for having done a lousy BEFORE search. It might even discourage people from trying to use AFD as a form of clean up. We've all seen the occasional editor who thinks that "Speedy keep, according to the four sources I've just added to this article" is a win. He spent 30 seconds on an AFD nom statement and has a shiny new set of refs in the article, bringing it up to his personal standard without having to do any of the actual work himself. What could be better or easier? WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:35, 18 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
+1. —David Eppstein (talk) 06:15, 18 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
(On a related note: Thank you, David, for the multiple hours you've spent helping me assess notability for NPROF and other subjects.) WhatamIdoing (talk) 17:50, 18 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
I don't understand your post at all. Could you explain, including who/what roles the hypothetical people are? North8000 (talk) 18:04, 18 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Would a story help?
Spamhunter Sally has found another uncited (or under-cited) article about an organization. As you know, Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies) sets a higher than average bar. As you also know, some editors dedicate themselves to protecting the wiki from
The org that Sal has in their sights this time is a large organization in a non-English speaking country, so it's difficult to find relevant search results, especially if your search strategy is to put the English transliteration of the name into your favorite web search engine, without quotes, with English-only filters enabled, so you get a lot of irrelevant hits. The AFD rationale says says "Nobody has cited this article for five years! I did a BEFORE search and didn't find any sources. We should delete it."
Alice says "Here are three sources in Arabic about this org". Bob says "Here is a good source in French about this org, and I've nicely formatted the citation for you". Chris says "I'm finding lots of sources when I search on the non-English local name". David says "It's mentioned in a report by the UK government". The article is kept.
What's next? The options are:
  • The article remains uncited (or under-cited).
  • The closer adds the citations to the article.
  • The nom adds the citations to the article
  • One of the AFD participants adds the citations to the article.
What's your choice? Note that I'm deliberately leaving out "Someone who didn't edit the AFD page noticed that there were sources listed there that are not in the article", as that's unrealistic. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:00, 18 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
@WhatamIdoing: Thanks for the response. There are so many unspecified or non-typical things in that that I'm hesitant to respond. But maybe I'll add a few assumptions and respond. Let's assume that by "undercited" you mean does not have the included sources to satisfy ncorp-GNG on a GNG-dependent article. (which would be the only basis for AFD'ing that article.) And let's assume that since you used the word "organization" instead of company, that it is a not a for-profit organization. And the respondents at AFD operated based on Wikipedia:How Wikipedia notability works, they say that it was a highly enclyclopedic topic, that it was real-world-notable, recognized that the unusually stringent standards of Ncorp are intended for for-profit corporations and not for the case at hand, and allowed a more lenient interpretation of ncorp GNG and decided "keep". In that case my answer is that all is settled; the article can exists as-is. (Like any article, it can be improved ) North8000 (talk) 21:35, 20 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
(The particular AFD I had in mind was one of the largest research hospitals in the world, and I think it was technically a government agency.)
You would leave the article un-/under-cited. I would also be content with that outcome (though, obviously, it's best if someone does that extra step). However, I saw complaints about an AFD not too many weeks ago whose rationale basically consisted of an editor complaining that the sources identified in the previous AFD had not been added to the article, so it was time to delete it, so some people apparently don't agree with us. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:50, 21 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Per WP:BURDEN, wouldn’t it be the responsibility of those editors who want to keep the article to add the relevant sources. Blueboar (talk) 13:05, 21 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
No. WP:BURDEN says The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material. This says nothing about sharing the responsibility with people who are discussing the article content, let alone those who are discussing whether the article should be deleted or kept. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 14:09, 21 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Verifiability is required for all content: the reliable source must already exist, and the burden of identifying the reliable source is on the keeper or adder. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:15, 21 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Exactly. Assuming the nominator has done a reasonable BEFORE search for sources, an AFD can be considered a challenge to the article’s Verifiability (specifically, the Verifiability of any statements as to why the topic is notable). Thus BURDEN applies. It is the responsibility of the editors who wish to retain the article to supply sources. Blueboar (talk) 14:25, 21 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Right, but unfortunately the BEFORE is often turned into a catch-22: You must do before, so we can smugly tell you, you don't know what you are doing. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:33, 21 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
^ This. The fact is that not everyone has the knowledge or skills necessary to do a decent BEFORE search. A search that seems reasonable to the nom won't necessarily seem reasonable to someone who knows about the subject area. Sometimes it's hard. The nom of Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/White cake made a 100% genuine effort to find sources. I don't fault him one bit. He just didn't happen to have the specialist knowledge necessary to find reliable sources amid all the recipes. White cake now names 22 sources and has a couple hundred words about its history. An ordinary BEFORE search doesn't help you find that. Noms do sometimes need help (that's why we're a collaborative project, right?), and we are not always kind to noms who need help.
That said, some noms have unusual ideas about what constitutes a reliable source. A couple of years ago, I saw a TBAN proposal for a frequent nom who appeared to have a personal belief that if a source contains a single sentence about anything in the long list at Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies)#Examples of trivial coverage, then the entire rest of the source is invalidated. You could have a thousand-word source about the some detail of a market-roiling corporate merger, and he'd reject that source as merely "routine coverage". So you could have someone do a good BEFORE search but do an idiosyncratic review of the sources they've found and come to a different conclusion. I find this far more irritating than the person who looked through 10 screenfuls of basic web search results before concluding that he couldn't find any sources. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:35, 21 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Remember that we are judging sources that have been identified and written down, which can include sources on a talk page as well as sources at an AFD; ultimately they should be included as in line citations (and even accepting as bare url ones), but a proper BEFORE review will consider these other locations in addition to what can be found off site and in print.
Of course if an edit claims they have a copy of a difficult-to-obtain source, there should be some onus on them to include that since they positively identified themselves as having access to it. We can't require that but can urge that. Masem (t) 20:14, 18 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
If a difficult-to-access source is identified but not turned into an inline citation by someone who knows what it says (and therefore which sentences in the article it can actually support), someone else might be able to list the source in ==Further reading==. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:05, 18 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Sources in foreign languages that are difficult to interpret may become the soil for hoaxes, see Zhemao hoaxes. Pygos (talk) 02:24, 19 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
WP:V#Accessibility covers both difficult-to-access sources and sources in foreign languages. --Redrose64 🌹 (talk) 06:30, 19 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Belatedly, as promised above, I have started compiling a list of sources at Wikipedia:WikiProject UK Railways/Sources#Railway stations, focused specifically on the extent of coverage of railway stations. More to come throughout the day. Editors who have books in their own collections are welcome to add details. It may also be worth writing up some "test cases": picking some stations, going through each book and identifying exactly how much is written about them. Hassocks5489 (Floreat Hova!) 08:48, 12 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

There should be a central repository of editors with libraries they are willing to share. Sort it by categories and it would be an invaluable benefit to the improvement of articles. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 16:27, 12 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
I have a vague recollection that there is/used to be something like this. I can't remember what it is/was called though and a quick search hasn't found what I'm thinking of unfortunately. Thryduulf (talk) 16:33, 12 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
WP:RX voorts (talk/contributions) 16:49, 12 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
I knew about Resource Exchange but not WP:SHARED, which is exactly what I was suggesting. Something that could use more advertising. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 17:07, 12 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
That's helpful too. I didn't know about that one. voorts (talk/contributions) 17:52, 12 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Might I suggest that someone whip up a simple Wikiproject-level talk page template which can be added to all British rail pages with those book sources, and then use some automated tool to add that template to the talk pages of all existing British rail station pages (eg all those in Category:Railway stations in Great Britain), such that 1) those sources become available to all such pages so they can be used for improvement, and 2) helps to address any BEFORE concerns, since those are likely sources that can be used and become appropriately identified within the article's talk page. --Masem (t) 16:14, 13 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

I think there is very broad acceptance that interviews do not contribute to GNG EDIT: for the human interviewee except for any SIGCOV contained in secondary independent commentary by the interviewer. This follows from the fact that anything the subject is saying about themselves is obviously neither secondary (as explicitly stated in WP:NOR) nor independent, and questions/leading comments by the interviewer are not SIGCOV and/or not secondary. However, a minority of editors at AfD insist that the mere choice by the media to interview a subject imparts or at least presumes notability EDIT: for the interviewee. This position is not at all supported by any notability guidelines EDIT: relating to people. WHYN and GNG require a source to contain SIGCOV that is independent and secondary in order to count toward a presumption of notability, but "chosen to be interviewed" does not constitute coverage EDIT: of the interviewee of any kind whatsoever. ANYBIO states a subject is likely to be notable if they have received a well-known and significant award or honor, or has been nominated for such an award several times, but the idea that any news source choosing to interview a subject is a well-known and significant award or honor that confers or even indicates notability is ridiculous, especially considering repeated global consensuses that even winning an Olympic gold medal is not sufficient to meet this criterion.

So can we workshop adding some guidance along the lines of "interviews do not count towards GNG EDIT: of the interviewee unless they contain significant secondary background or analysis by the interviewer that is independent of the interview"? JoelleJay (talk) 00:40, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

What do you think we need, that isn't already in Wikipedia:Interviews? Is the goal just to have a simplified summary on a page that says {{guideline}} at the top (which, even if we grumble about WP:CREEP, really is needed sometimes), or do we need more content/facts/explanations than are currently available?
In terms of the other editors' analysis, the mere fact of being selected as the subject (NB: not interviewee) of an interview can – sometimes – show "attention from the world at large", which is one of the goals of notability. They're not completely wrong, but I think it is more complicated than just "Some radio show aired a five-minute interview with Joe Film about his new film, so he's notable". WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:53, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Interviews give us something verifiable to write from, but there's no guarantee of fact checking. If a subject was covered in one or two interviews but no other reliable sources, I'm not sure it would warrant its own article. Shooterwalker (talk) 01:05, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
There's no guarantee of fact checking in non-interview sources, either. Peer-reviewed papers are never fact-checked. Scholarly books are rarely fact checked at all (and never thoroughly; it's too expensive). Pre-publication fact checking is a rarity. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:56, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
While no source is completely beyond reproach or error, the definition of a WP:RS is that they have a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy; therefore, we presume that, yes, they fact-check the things we cite. If you have a specific reason to believe a source isn't doing that (ie. coverage that makes it clear they lack that reputation) then you should raise that objection on talk or RSN or wherever. But an interview is different; they are not supposed to be fact-checked the way a news article or a peer-reviewed paper is. Therefore, they're generally unusable for statements of fact in the article voice beyond attributed opinions - a non-independent sort of source, which isn't enough to satisfy the GNG. --Aquillion (talk) 02:05, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
We don't presume they actually engage in pre-publication fact-checking, because we've written enough at Fact checking to know that that isn't reality, and hasn't been for most of Wikipedia's existence (or ever, in some fields). Most news-related fact-checking these days is post hoc fact-checking. Internal post hoc fact-checking is visible to us by way of the corrections issued later. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:41, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Respectfully, there is a conflict within even your own post. The heading and early part talks about interviews as a whole, but the situations you are talking about is the argument that mere selection to interview somebody is wp:notability. But IMO the prominence of the source that decided to interview/ cover them, and the length/ depth of the interview are metrics for gauging to what degree it contributes as an indicator of wp:notability. North8000 (talk) 01:13, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
the prominence of the source that decided to interview/ cover them, and the length/ depth of the interview are metrics for gauging to what degree it contributes as an indicator of wp:notability. I agree that those things might establish that a person is colloquially notable (worthy of note; distinguished or prominent), but that doesn't make them wiki-notable (having been the subject of significant coverage in reliable sources). However, I suppose I agree that those factors can be used to determine the extent to which a particular interview serves to indicate notability. Put another way, I think seeing that someone has been interviewed by The New York Times for a significant accomplishment indicates that there's probably other significant coverage about this person. By contrast, finding an interview of a local businessperson in the Daily Inter Lake is unlikely to indicate that there will be additional significant coverage of that person. All of that said, if there's no other significant coverage, it shouldn't be sufficient to rely on only an interview at AfD to !vote keep. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:43, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Generally, when we're talking about interviews as sources, we're not talking about newspapers. The New York Times rarely uses the interview format; they interview people and then turn it into prose. Radio and television shows, on the other hand, interview people and use the interview itself as the publication (and therefore our source). See Interview (journalism)#Famous interviews or thinking about shows like 60 Minutes. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:01, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Change the NYT to NPR and the Daily Inter Lake to WNYU in my example above and I think my point is still valid. voorts (talk/contributions) 02:03, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
My position is that a pure Q&A interview, regardless of source prestige, definitionally cannot count towards determining (presumptive) notability because it is neither IRS SIGCOV nor a "well-known and significant award or honor". People might claim that it indicates notability-proving coverage exists somewhere else, but it does not itself demonstrate notability. A subject cannot meet GNG with any number of interviews (that don't include independent secondary SIGCOV from the interviewer), yet we get people arguing that notability is satisfied with such sources. JoelleJay (talk) 02:21, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
If a person, for the purpose of talking about himself/his activities/his business/etc, gets featured in an hour-long interview, then that's usually SIGCOV – an hour's worth of wikt:coverage in the media, to be precise – but I agree that it's not WP:INDY (with, as you note originally, the exception of any separate material from the journalist/interviewer/others on the show). WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:47, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
....Yes, but what SIGCOV is in isolation from WHYN/GNG is irrelevant to this discussion and I certainly don't need it to be clarified to me:
  • except for any SIGCOV contained in secondary independent commentary by the interviewer
  • SIGCOV that is independent and secondary
  • contain significant secondary background or analysis by the interviewer that is independent of the interview
  • it is neither IRS SIGCOV
  • that don't include independent secondary SIGCOV from the interviewer
JoelleJay (talk) 03:32, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
I mention it partly because your "IRS SIGCOV" may be confusing to people who know that WP:IRS refers to Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources, a past name for the Wikipedia:Reliable sources guideline. The problem isn't all of "IRS SIGCOV"; the problem is only "I", as in WP:INDEPENDENT. An interview of an article's subject can be a reliable source (perhaps even moreso than the subject's own social media posts, which can also be reliable); they can even provide SIGCOV; the problem is that nothing the subject says about the subject is independent of the subject. WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:50, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Really? Come on... JoelleJay (talk) 07:19, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
An interview is not independent of the subject and should not contribute to notability. I agree that introductory material or other commentary by the interviewer or publication may contribute to notability if the coverage is significant. In any event, if a person is truly notable, an interview in a prominent publication should be superfluous in establishing notability because such an interview would usually only happen after the subject has received significant coverage in other sources. If, for example, The New York Times has interviewed someone, that person has probably already been written about; if they have not, and no other sources can be found, then they are probably a low-profile person. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:36, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
This dogmatic approach to independence falls apart under close examination. Where do you think "independent" sources get their information? From the air, promise-crammed? —David Eppstein (talk) 01:43, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
People and groups of people are routinely written about without being interviewed. Music reviewers don't interview the band every time they review an album or write an analysis of their discography. Journalists don't interview every person they write about (and indeed, prominent people often decline to comment). Historians don't travel back in time to interview their subjects. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:49, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Again, where do they get the information? From the subject, or at third hand, from a Wikipedia article based on sources that got the contents based on other sources that got their contents from information from the subject? Why do you think playing telephone makes information more reliable, not less? —David Eppstein (talk) 01:51, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
A music critic gets information about a musician or band's progression by listening to all of their albums, going to concerts, etc. A historian can get information about a person by reading a newspaper story that covers that person's indictment, the transcript of the trial where that person didn't testify, and letters between that person's friends and family. A journalist can get information about a person by digging through their trash can and finding incriminating items. voorts (talk/contributions) 01:59, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
You think that's what journalism consists of? Dumpster diving? And that level of understanding is what is driving our policy discussions? *rolls eyes* —David Eppstein (talk) 05:57, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
The journalism bit was a joke. My point is that plenty of people write about other people without ever talking to them. voorts (talk/contributions) 13:42, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
  • It's not a matter of where they get their information. The crux of a reliable independent source is that it has editorial controls and performs fact-checking independent of the subject; through these editorial controls and this fact-checking process, an WP:RS puts their reputation for fact-checking and accuracy behind the things they say. Even if the NYT interviews a random man on the street for a news article, we trust that their editorial process would catch inaccurate statements. An interview does not generally go through the same process. Therefore, it shouldn't be used as one of the two sources for the WP:GNG. --Aquillion (talk) 02:02, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
  • "Promise-crammed"? What...? And how are you reading An interview is not independent of the subject and should not contribute to notability. I agree that introductory material or other commentary by the interviewer or publication may contribute to notability if the coverage is significant. that you would conclude Voorts or anyone else believes that interview content can't ever be discussed independently? I mean if literally all the information that exists on a person comes directly from what they/their affiliates have said about them, with zero analysis or contextualization with info from other sources by anyone independent, then yeah, I guess in this hyperbolic strawman scenario there wouldn't be any independent sourcing. It might even mean all that coverage you call "hype" would have to be discarded due to the details ultimately tracing back to press releases. I hardly think it would be a bad thing if notability could only be established with material critically evaluating the subject's actions/impact as observed by unaffiliated people rather than with the select anecdotes and trivial personal info the subject chooses to divulge. JoelleJay (talk) 07:45, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    "I eat the air, promise-crammed!" is a line from Hamlet, act 3, scene 2 [6]. XOR'easter (talk) 20:25, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Voorts, did you mean that "An interview is not independent of the interviewee"? This is one of the points made in Wikipedia:Interviews: If the local radio station has Prof. IM Portant on to talk about local history, on the 250th anniversary of some local historical event, then the subject of the interview is the historical event, and IM Portant is independent of the historical event. That interview could indicate notability for the historical event (but not for Prof Portant). WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:54, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Interviewee or subject. I agree that an interview of the professor in those circumstances should not contribute to notability. But I also think that an interview where the interviewee is the subject does not establish notability; at best, it may point towards the existence of suitable sourcing. See my response to North8000 above. voorts (talk/contributions) 02:01, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
I think that an interview of the professor in those circumstances should contribute to notability – of the historical event, which is the subject of the publication. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:04, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
I don't think anyone is suggesting it wouldn't. This discussion is about whether an interview of a person and about that person can count towards establishing the notability of that person. voorts (talk/contributions) 02:22, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
I thought it was quite clear from the context of my post that we are only talking about situations where the interview subject is the interviewee, but I guess I'll edit it to make this more explicit. (moved to proper thread) JoelleJay (talk) 02:38, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
  • I don't think a typical interview should be used to satisfy the GNG. The GNG represents the bare minimum necessary to write a balanced, neutral article. I don't think that an interview satisfies that - it's not independent. Imagine an article sourced solely to one GNG-quality news article and one interview. The only source in that entire article that would give us an external perspective on the subject would be that one article; the interview is no help. Avoiding that over-reliance on a single source is why the GNG requires two sources. (Worse, imagine an article sourced only to two interviews, with no external perspective on the subject at all! We cannot write a neutral encyclopedic article using that.) Provided the GNG is otherwise met, if there are still people arguing over whether the subject is notable enough for an article, an interview might be a "soft" indicator of significance; but it's not sufficient to satisfy that bare minimum because it wouldn't be acceptable for it to be one of the only two supposedly-reliable independent sources in the article. --Aquillion (talk) 02:02, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I think that all of this is subject to what you mean by "typical interview". For example, does your typical interview involve Joe Film talking about himself? Or does your typical interview involve an expert talking about their area of expertise?
    Voorts has amended an example above to NPR. They run a number of radio shows with an interview format. Is a "typical interview" Fresh Air with Terry Gross, and she's interviewing a famous musician about his career? Is it 1A (radio program), and Jennifer White is interviewing an academic expert about climate change? I think that the weekly Fresh Air has more of the qualities we generally value (the interviewer presents factual information; it's pre-recorded and edited, so they can omit errors, baseless self-promotion, etc.), but the interviewee is almost always the subject. The daily 1A has more of a "live" feel with less apparent preparation, but the interviewee is almost never the main subject. WhatamIdoing (talk) 02:16, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    The Fresh Air interview might indicate someone is notable, but doesn't establish notability. A famous musician is already notable so the question of whether we would need the Fresh Air interview to establish notability is academic. The 1A interview might actually establish the notability of the subject under WP:NPROF#C7. But, say we take your example of academic and change it to journalist, then it would not establish notability because interviewing someone about their work doesn't establish the notability of that person. voorts (talk/contributions) 02:26, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    How exactly does the interviewee discussing themselves constitute Terry Gross writing and publishing non-trivial [and analytic or evaluative] works of [her] own that focus upon the interviewee directly and in detail? Our policy specifically identifies interviews as primary sources "depending on context" and cites four different academic institutions that unequivocally classify interviews as primary sources. What part of a Terry Gross interview has the "context" to make it secondary (and isn't just the background analysis I've already described in the OP)? JoelleJay (talk) 03:15, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    I don't think interviews alone establish notability, you would have to show that the interviews attracted attention in secondary sources. The problem is that interviews don't provide any reliable information about someone, other than what they have said. Even that is questionable, since they can be edited and we require interpretation to determine what someone actually meant.
    If you are relying on an interview, the notability is borderline at best. That means we cannot write a balanced, informative article about the person. TFD (talk) 03:36, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
    We have an article that contains this sentence:
    "In April 2011, 60 Minutes and author Jon Krakauer accused Mortenson of fabrication in his non-fiction books and of financial improprieties at his charity Central Asia Institute."
    I suspect that particular interview provided a lot of "reliable information about someone" that wasn't "what they have said" about themselves.
    The problem with condemning a format is that the format isn't the determining factor for reliability. It's like saying "Video doesn't provide any reliable information" or "Magazines aren't reliable sources". WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:52, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Interviews can be reliable, but that's a separate question from notability. They can't be used to establish "GNG" notability, as they are not independent and thats what that part of policy asks for. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 11:02, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Would not this fail wp:n as they are only notable for one event (the interview)? Slatersteven (talk) 11:09, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
In this vein, that someone was interviewed by a reliable source is a strong indicator that there should be other sources about that person, for as why would the RS chose to interview them? (this is not considering the type of news "eyewitness" interviews). If I saw a bio article using an interview as an indication of meeting the GNG, I would not rush to delete it, but if a proper BEFORE brought nothing else forward that could be used, then deletion makes sense, or otherwise ask if the interview has use elsewhere. I could this being the case of a book author, otherwise non-notable, who writes one famous book that is notable, so the interview w/ the author is easily usable to expand the book article, but not for the author themselves. Masem (t) 12:10, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

IMHO under Wikipedia:How Wikipedia notability works (which IMHO is an observation of how the big fuzzy wp:notability ecosystem actually works) several factors determine it's strength of contribution towards meeting GNG-judgements. (note that I said "GNG-judgements", not "GNG", because factors besides GNG contribute to GNG judgements). Regarding format, being an interview is weaker in that respect than regular coverage. Regarding other factors, real world notability does count a bit and so a prominent selective source deciding to interview them per se contributes a bit. Another variable is to what extent the interviewer is creating coverage. For example, if the interviewer is asking the questions (maybe with giving background on them) in the areas needed to build real coverage vs. just giving the interviewee the floor with a few softball questions. Also the length and depth of the interview is another determining variable, as is the strength of the interviewer/their organization as a wiki-source. In short, all else being equal, an interview counts less but not zero. North8000 (talk) 12:32, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

The only sources that count towards meeting GNG and WHYN are those that have IRS SIGCOV. GNG does not consider "non-GNG factors". What you seem to be talking about are judgments more appropriate for PAGEDECIDE or when editors decide there is enough presumption of achieving GNG that a page can be retained, but those shouldn't be mistaken for actually meeting GNG. JoelleJay (talk) 20:02, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

Disagree with the premise. The argument that someone appearing on the front page of Time magazine with a full-length feature interview means nothing when it comes to WP:N "because interviews don't count" has always struck me as one that's absurd on its face, and it's always strange to see admins buy into it. Whether something is an interview matters a lot more to WP:V and the specific claim it's being used to support than notability. In some cases an interview is a promotional piece and should be treated as such, but that's not usually what we're talking about. The whole idea of WP:N is to defer to the judgment of external publications to ensure the subject has received "sufficiently significant attention". It's hard to make the argument that a feature interview does not demonstrate attention from that external publication. If someone's using it to support a claim it shouldn't support, fine, but that's a separate question. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 15:35, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply

If a person has been interviewed by Time for a full-length feature piece, then (1) that interview will likely contain secondary coverage from the interviewer and (2) that person is highly likely to already be notable based on coverage in other sources. voorts (talk/contributions) 15:41, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Yep, and it also indicates significant attention from a reliable source, regardless. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 15:49, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Right. I don't think Joelle's point was that it doesn't indicate notability, but rather that a such an interview on its own isn't sufficient to establish notability. voorts (talk/contributions) 15:52, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
The first line says interviews "do not contribute to GNG". I don't think any one source alone is enough to establish notability (putting aside e.g. NPROF and GEOLAND), but an interview certainly "contributes" to it. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 16:22, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
Coverage that is not independent and secondary doesn't count towards GNG. So how exactly would an interview ever qualify (apart from what I mentioned above)? JoelleJay (talk) 19:39, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
If the only info about a person you can get from a source is what they say about themselves, how can you possibly meet NPOV? Interviews may be an indicator of attention, but they are clearly not IRS coverage for the purposes of GNG/WHYN. JoelleJay (talk) 19:49, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
If the information you have about a person is significant, in-depth, and written in the third person by someone who based their content entirely on a separately-published interview with the subject, what magic does that third-person grammar and second-hand publication bring to the subject relative to the original interview? Why do you care about its format rather than its content and provenance? —David Eppstein (talk) 20:17, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
If the content is entirely from an interview, then it lacks secondary analysis and fails on that front as well. We need someone independently discussing what an interviewee said to help establish that that info is BALASP, to provide external context and analysis, and (hopefully) to fact-check its accuracy. Why would we want a biography if it only contained the details the subject chose to share about themselves? Isn't the absence of anyone unaffiliated talking about that person or their work, in their own words, the ultimate indicator that they aren't actually encyclopedically notable? JoelleJay (talk) 21:01, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
As I understand your response here, you are defining encyclopedic notability by your interpretation of GNG and then asking whether that definition is the same as being "actually encyclopedically notable". Either that is circular reasoning (in this encyclopedia, that is how we generally define "notability", so yes, they are tautologically the same) or it is obviously false (we could imagine defining criteria for inclusion in an encyclopedia in many other ways, and there is no particular reason for thinking of our definition here as "ultimate").
But to return to the topic at hand: If we have a 30-page interview with the subject, by a historian, about their life, then it's likely to contain a lot of usable information. If we have only promotional interviews with the subject about the book that they just wrote, then it's likely to be almost entirely useless fluff. If the first kind of interview gets turned into a third-person biography instead of being published verbatim as an interview, then it's a third-person biography of a type we typically use as a source.
If we define notability to mean "there exist in-depth sources that we trust to be accurate enough", then we should base that trust on content and provenance, not on format. But I would also dispute that as being our definition. We don't generally allow local-newspaper profiles of the beloved traffic warden who has been guarding the same crosswalk for 20 years to count towards notability. Why not? They may well be in-depth and trustworthy, but we just don't think a local traffic warden is a significant enough topic for an article. The problem is that we are conflating two different meanings of notability, the internal-to-Wikipedia jargon of having adequate sources to support what we write and the colloquial one of having enough significance to be worthy of inclusion. An interview may or may not contribute to sourceability depending on its nature. It may or may not contribute to significance depending on its nature. But blanket statements that interviews are unusable come across as dogmatism replacing thoughtfulness. —David Eppstein (talk) 21:16, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply
  • I too reject the OP's assertion that "there is very broad acceptance that interviews do not contribute to GNG". Here's a couple of examples. There's a famous BBC Radio programme, Desert Island Discs, which has an interview format in which the subject talks around their choice of music. To be selected for this is a significant honour and the subject commonly gives some good insights into their career. To dismiss such a respectable source in a blanket way is ridiculous.
As another example, I've noticed that GLAM institutions often collect and publish interviews as a form of oral history. For example, see The West Point Oral History Center which I came across when writing Doris Allen. The respectability of such institutions again gives then good standing.
Andrew🐉(talk) 21:20, 28 September 2024 (UTC)Reply