Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive1157 - Wikipedia

A user, named GamerHashaam has been conducting a series of disruptive edits on the Third Balochistan conflict. He, with no sources or talk page interaction, changed the results of the conflict to “Baluchi victory”. [1] When I reverted it and told him to take it to the talk page, he threw what seemed to be a tantrum, calling me a “bootlicker” and a “faujeet” (a merge of Fauj, which means army, and “pajeet”, which is a racist term for Indians.). [2].

I have constantly attempted to make him use the talk page for a civilised conversation as seen from my edit summaries, and issued him warnings on his talk page, but it doesn’t seem to make him act any more civil. Even accusing me of being an asset of the Pakistani military, accusing me of spreading “bullshit” and accusing me of being a captain in the Pakistani army. [3]

I tried to keep an open mind, but he simply wants to engage in insults and bad rhetoric. I eventually found out that the result I was reverting to (Pakistani victory) had no basis, so I had reverted it to the “ceasefire” result it always had before, I even apologised to him and said I hoped that this would be a fair compromise. But to no avail, he constantly puts it as a “Baluchi victory” despite no sources, and even has the audacity to tell me to use the talk page, when he has been editing the result without the consultation of the talk page, and only eventually using it to insult me.

What’s even more suspicious, is that an IP created the same exact edit to the result parameter he did, only 9 minutes before. I’m not sure if this was merely an accident, but I’d just thought to mention it anyway.[4]

This isn’t the only page, he edited the casualties on the 2024 Azad Kashmir demonstrations and simply stated “per local sources”, with no citations and links. And even when it was reverted, he simply re-inserted it back. [5]

In summary, I have attempted to rectify the issue, even apologising to him for my mistake.[6]

I urge the administrators to take action against GamerHashaam, he has been disruptively editing and extremely insulting and uncivil. His disruptive editing is still on the Third Balochistan conflict page, as I do not want to continue an edit war. VirtualVagabond (talk) 22:54, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

I apologize to you of any ill behavior but I thought that you were promoting the narrative by the state as a military handle of ISPR but I recognize that claim is bogus without evidence so I apologize for that. I changed it to a Baluch Victory with some more edits such as changing baluchis to baluchs as baluchis is used by only punjabi people in pakistan as they tend to use a "i" with "s" to pronounce plural of ethnic groups or peoples.

I changed it to a baluch victory as I clearly defined that the demands of the Baluch had been accepted by the government as even in the article original state it mentions that yahya sued for negotiations and reverted the one unit scheme aswell gave a general amnesty not to mention releasing all captured insurgents. GamerHashaam (talk) 23:04, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Clearly defined without a source. 48JCL (talk) 23:07, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/297949740_The_resurgence_of_baluch_ethnicity_and_nationalism_in_Baluchistan?enrichId=rgreq-7b34a998ca96ef754c3352b1de0972d1-XXX&enrichSource=Y292ZXJQYWdlOzI5Nzk0OTc0MDtBUzo1MzY5NTQ1Nzc5NzMyNTRAMTUwNTAzMTM1NTgzMg%3D%3D&el=1_x_3&_esc=publicationCoverPdf

This is one source I citate for the research, Its from Multan Zakariya University. GamerHashaam (talk) 23:10, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

WP:RESEARCHGATE ResearchGate is not reliable according to Wikipedia. 48JCL (talk) 23:13, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

He (VirtualVagabond) continued to make the claim that the rebels wanted Independence or sucession from Pakistan and provided no sources or citations for such claims and as per the demands, we have of the rebels , nearly all were fullfilled. thus I saw it to edit it into a baluch victory from a ceasefire or pakistani victory. GamerHashaam (talk) 23:07, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

If you read my notice, you see that I mentioned that, and you see me mentioning apologising to you, and rectifying my mistake. The links are there to take you to them if you need proof. VirtualVagabond (talk) 23:12, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

I mean alright but It still constitues a Baluch Victory considering that the Baluchistan province was restored while one unit scheme was abolished and there demand of provincial autonomy was accepted. All Rebel Leaders contested and won election in 1970. Other thing to mention is that they were not arrested or proseucted for any crimes. GamerHashaam (talk) 23:15, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Whether the amnesty was due to pressure by fighters on the federal government, or a strategic move by the government to curtail the insurgency isn’t relevant. What’s relevant is that your source for “Balochi victory” (which you didn’t even cite in the article) isn’t reliable. VirtualVagabond (talk) 23:17, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

The military dictator General Yahya Khan sued for a cease-fire with the Pararis. In spite of their recognition of a cease-fire, the Pararis were persuaded a revitalization of hostilities with Islamabad was only a matter of time. The Pararis upheld their guerrilla forces unharmed and enlarged their reach, powers and numbers after the 1969 cease-fire. In certain areas, they were capable to run a virtual parallel government. General Yahya Khan broke up of One Unit on July 1, 1970 and Baluchistan for the first time became a full-fledged province. But no attempt was done to take the internal administration of the province in line with those of other provinces. The general elections were held under the Legal Frame Work Order in December 1970 for the first time in the history of Pakistan and the result of the 1970 elections unleashed a whole set of new and contradictory forces into the political agenda.

here's the text

We need to verify it in a journal

ResearchGate is a social network that hosts a repository of user-generated publications, including preprints. ResearchGate does not perform fact checking or peer reviewing, and is considered a self-published source. Verify whether a paper on ResearchGate is also published in a peer-reviewed academic journal; in these cases, cite the more reliable journal and provide an open access link to the paper (which may be hosted on ResearchGate). GamerHashaam (talk) 23:20, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree it was a ceasefire, which I had inserted. On the other hand, nothing says about a full-fledged Balochi victory.

It doesn’t matter about your claims about ResearchGate doing “fact checking” or whatever. Wikipedia policy deems it as unreliable, through and through. It even states that it does not do fact checking on WP:RESEARCHGATE, and states it as a “self-published source.” VirtualVagabond (talk) 23:26, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

yes a self published source although we can find a factual journal on a other site for it.

Second I didn't say it was a full-fledged baloch victory rather a simple baloch victory due to there demands being accepted for which we can find other sources in the article other then me as listed below:

Third Balochistan conflict#Insurgency

Sher Muhammad Bijrani Marri led like-minded militants into guerrilla warfare from 1963 to 1969 by creating their own insurgent bases. Their goal was to force Pakistan to share revenue generated from the Sui gas fields with the tribal leaders and lifting of One Unit Scheme. The insurgents bombed railway tracks and ambushed convoys and raided on military camps.

Third Balochistan conflict#Military response

This insurgency ended in 1969, with the Baloch separatists agreeing to a ceasefire granting general amnesty to the separatists as well as freeing the separatists. In 1970 Pakistani President Yahya Khan abolished the "One Unit" policy, which led to the recognition of Balochistan as the fourth province of West Pakistan (present-day Pakistan), including all the Balochistani princely states, the High Commissioners Province, and Gwadar, an 800 km² coastal area purchased from Oman by the Pakistani government.

Also I humbly require you to use proper pronoun for the balochs not balochi as balochi is the language not the people. GamerHashaam (talk) 23:35, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

@GamerHashaam: Please stop WP:SHOUTING. – 2804:F14:80B7:8201:C4DC:E500:5610:A60F (talk) 23:40, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

I was not shouting rather just highlighting the important text in the passages GamerHashaam (talk) 23:42, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

I was talking about your response, not the quotes, we can read it just fine without the bold. – 2804:F14:80B7:8201:C4DC:E500:5610:A60F (talk) 23:48, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Alright GamerHashaam (talk) 23:49, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

What even is a “simple victory”? Your claims don’t make any sense. Wikipedia policy doesn’t accept that.

What is this other factual source? You didn’t send a link or citation, nor any other source, but regurgitated what the unreliable source said.

Please, let’s take this to the talk page of the conflict. Let the administrators here do their job easier. VirtualVagabond (talk) 23:44, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

By Simple Victory I meant not a Phyric Victory with too many loses or a Decisive Crushing Victory rather a Moderate Victory. It takes time to find factual information on a source thus I request some time aprox 24 hours to investigate and find one. GamerHashaam (talk) 23:47, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Not how Wikipedia policy on a military victory works. Again, please take this to the talk page. VirtualVagabond (talk) 23:50, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Alright take it to the talk page , add some sources and context please I request for it to be a ceasefire or pakistani victory. I have to go now but I will Inshallah Review it in 12 hours and provide a reply. Allah Hafiz GamerHashaam (talk) 23:52, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Also Its baloch not balochi , Please fix the pronoun GamerHashaam (talk) 23:21, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Just to ask, does anybody know when an admin will come to make a decision? It seems that the reports before and after this one have mostly been solved or at least have been looked over. But not for this, I understand it might take some time but I’ve heard that ANIs get archived if there’s no activity for three days. Hence my curiosity. VirtualVagabond (talk) 02:43, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

That usually means there has not been sufficient evidence presented that admins are willing to take action. Or that someone who would be willing to take action just hasn't been online to see it yet. If the thread gets archived, oh well. If the problem repeats and requires immediate action to resolve, a new thread can be opened with a reference back to this one in the archives. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 17:40, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Elinruby is currently involved in the broader, generally good effort to address the hard POV shift that occurred recently at Canadian Indian residential school gravesites and is being separately discussed at RSN. The Canadian article needs fixing and the edits earlier this month that suggested the gravesites were somehow fake are extremely bad. However, Elinruby's conduct has demonstrated the same BATTLEGROUND abuse of procedure and accusations/aspersions that have resulted in them receiving previous reports ([1]), warnings ([2]), and a block ([3]).

• Accusations of another editor whitewashing mass murder: [4]
• Accusing me of inserting fake news and then removing reliably sourced material, followed by refusing to engage in discussion when more recent reliable sources were presented: [5]
• Adding numerous spurious tags despite citations and relevance been immediately present (the tag if these are all arsons, say that. Stuff burns all the time in British Columbia is especially bizarre because the next paragraph explicitly discusses that these were largely arsons): [6]
• Saying they don't need to engage in discussion and suggesting that I'm racist for quoting a CBC News investigation that determined a link between outrage with the gravesites and a rise in arsons: [7]
• When asked to refrain from this behavior, they declared their talk page out of order for the next 24 to 48 hours and presented a list of Q and As, apparently gloating about having triggered other editors: [8]

Look: a different editor did heavily maul the article to suggest the gravesites were fake and that's bad. But Elinruby's longstanding pattern of unsubstantiated personal attacks has been particularly hurtful for me when, for the last two months, most of my time at my real-life job has been helping Native high school students establish action plans for their nations to take in addressing generational trauma caused by the boarding school system. This behavior has to be stopped. ~ Pbritti (talk) 19:13, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Related: Wikipedia:Administrators’ noticeboard/IncidentArchive1150 § Elinruby’s conduct. Northern Moonlight 22:07, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

  Blocked – for a period of one week: User talk:Elinruby#Block. El_C 22:11, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

apparently gloating about having triggered other editors: On reading the diff, something seems taken out of context. The text is Q[uestion]. But this Wikipedia article says it didn't A[nswer]. IF/ELSE branch triggered, return to GO [line break] Q. Why are you editing that article? A. IF/ELSE branch triggered, return to GO. I'm not 100% sure what it is saying, but I don't see a plain read where it constitutes gloating about triggering editors. "IF/ELSE" seems to refer to some abstract situation (possibly saying ElinRuby themselves is being 'triggered', as in prompted/motivated, to edit an article?). If there is some reason to 'translate' "IF/ELSE branch" as meaning people, I'd be interested in knowing.By way of context for different editor did heavily maul the article, there is an RSN discussion (permanent link) about the use of unreliable sources in Canadian Indian residential school gravesites. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 03:31, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Computing pseudocode. If else is a common conditional; they're just sending the reader back to the top of FAQ with the "return to GO". Pretty sure trigger here is the general trigger, not trauma trigger. The two questions for which the answers are of that form are pretty basic "don't ask" questions on Wikipedia, so I don't see any problem specifically with those. I don't see a problem with the FAQ at all, unless the doubling down on the "whitewashing" claim is baseless, which I have not checked yet. — Usedtobecool ☎️ 04:42, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

It's a mistake to get caught up in the granular details of the items I collapsed. Because this happened in the midst of and seemingly in response to a related dispute (and a discussion a few sections up), it comes across as WP:BATTLEGROUND. Also in tone and tenor. And since it happened less than a day after a warning from another admin, I stand by the action. El_C 05:34, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

The "trigger" aspect that was brought up which I worried could derail discussion over a misunderstanding is what triggered my comment. Your block notice says a lot more and describes a long-term pattern (in fact, kudos to you for completely skirting that detail in all your comments), so indeed the granular details of that one thing are otherwise largely irrelevant. Except for the diffless doubling down on "whitewashing" accusation, the FAQ probably didn't need to be collapsed, would be as far as I would go based on what I know so far, if I were to challenge your actions, which I didn't, and don't, because the whitewashing accusation is grave, and diffless. Best, — Usedtobecool ☎️ 05:54, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

I read the whole thing after reading Elinruby's copied-over comments below, and it never occurred to me that that misinterpretation was from the "IF...ELSE triggered" comments, but I understood that to be pseudocode. I thought the misinterpretation came from how closely Elinruby's section headers resembled the "you mad bro" meme, which is related to triggering and, if that was the intent, was incredibly unwise to have written while too hot. I'm not sure about the rest at this point. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:24, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

OP put the "triggered" in quotes, and that's where the word occurs in the diff cited. — Usedtobecool ☎️ 15:12, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

• From User talk:Elinruby (permalink):

The links and quotes below deal with some very disturbing history about documented murders of small children. Viewer discretion is advised.

I read that last post of SFR's as friendly advice from an admin I had just informally asked for an explanation of 1RR, not a formal warning. I am assuming that he thought "genocide" was an exaggeration. It is not. There was a formal finding to that effect by the Canadian House of Commons and Pope Francis has also said precisely that. [9][10] Certainly legalities prevented the Truth and Reconciliation Commission from saying so, but that doesn't mean they weren't scathing.[11][12] Or specific. Or that they didn't show the receipts. I hope SFR is enjoying his ducklings and I am not requesting he comment unless he wants to; he has enough going on.

I think that Pbritti misunderstood a number of things but that these aspersions may well have been made in good faith. The block log for example:

• current diff 145: a complaint that I gave an editor with ~100 edits a CT notice, which they interpreted as uncivil. Closed with no action by Star Mississippi (thank you, no comment needed unless you want to)
• current diff 146: Discussed with El C in the block section on my talk page if anyone cares. TL;DR: ancient
• current diff 147: Shortly before this LTA indeffed themself they page-blocked me for discussing changes to an article on its talk page. Not pinging them because they indeffed themself

Then the complaint itself:

• Accusations of another editor whitewashing mass murder: I actually should have said that they denied it. The article whitewashed it; they denied it based on a skim of that article. The context is here: [13] To my horror I discovered that the article did indeed say that. But let's get through these points.

• Accusing me of inserting fake news: The first time I ever heard of Pbritti was when he came to my talk page and threatened to take me to ANI.
• removing reliably sourced material: One broken ref for two paragraphs about three-year old unproven allegations
• refusing to engage in discussion when more recent reliable sources were presented: three-year-old source about a three-year-old tweet. The publisher itself is considered reliable, yes.
• spurious tags despite citations and relevance been immediately present: Uh...no. see next bullet point.
• the tag "if these are all arsons, say that. Stuff burns all the time in British Columbia is especially bizarre because the next paragraph explicitly discusses that these were largely arsons": Pbritti seems unfamiliar with the British Columbia wildfire season.[14][15][16] The same week, Lytton spontaneously combusted in temperatures of 49.6 °C (121.3 °F). But the key phrase is "the next paragraph". The section starts out of nowhere: By July 4, 2021 nearly two dozen churches...had been burned. He quoted the middle of what I said also, btw, please click the diff for context. The section implies that indigenous people committed arson, but no RS say so. The relevance tags have been removed now because they are "addressed by sanction". Go team Wikipedia!
• Saying they don't need to engage in discussion: Misinterpretation of I don't think there is much to discuss. Accuracy is a requirement.
• suggesting that I'm racist: Pbritti is once again again personalizing a remark about content: If you are talking about the unsourced allegations that indigenous peoples are committing crimes, I find the assertions racist and unfit for Wikivoice
• CBC News investigation that determined a link: One person found guilty so far: Mentally ill and mad at her boyfriend. Ethnicity unspecified. Something about correlation and causation and original research. That content still merits a HUGE {{so?}} tag.
• When asked to refrain from this behavior, they declared their talk page out of order for the next 24 to 48 hours: I won't stop thinking that accuracy is important. I tried to reply to Pbritti's good-faith admonishments, but he just kept going...
• apparently gloating about having triggered other editors:Capably translated by Usedtobecool; thank you
• a list of Q and As: It mentions no names and I am surprised that people are complaining that the shoe fits.

This is long so I will close by thanking Hydrangeans for pointing out the RSN thread, which also has two diffs of some definitely uh misinterpreted sources. Elinruby (talk) 17:02, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

copied by Usedtobecool ☎️ 09:34, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

Pinged note, no comment at this point which should not be interpreted to mean anything but a lack of awareness of and familiarity with the situation as I've been offline since Friday and this appears to be an indepth issue. I will read up on this and see whether I can assist. My involvement is as @Elinruby notes it above but I've had no further involvement with the topic as far as I'm aware and standard engagement with Elinruby. Star Mississippi 01:01, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

• Elinruby made 145 mostly small edits to the article between 13:14, 17 May and 10:00, 18 May (all times UTC), or a bit less than a day. Flurries of activity on controversial topics like this are often related to real-world events, like the release of new information related to the investigations, but I'm not aware of anything having happened to attract this attention recently. Elinruby wasn't the first mover in this recent activity, though: another editor removed quite a lot of info about a week before this and added some contrary info based on suspect sources, there's active discussion on the talk page and at RSN about it. I don't know if Elinruby was just trying to correct that and found more problems (the article does need updating) but it would have been better if Elinruby would have slowed down when editors started challenging their edits, like the others have, and it was especially poor form to ignore being pinged on the article talk and telling editors on their user talk to go away, and so I can't help but endorse the block as an involved admin. Might I suggest commuting their block to a pblock from the article, so they can participate in the ongoing discussions? Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:45, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

  Per El_C, I leave it to any uninvolved admin to adjust this block as they see fit (including lifting it outright) in response to an unblock request. I need not be consulted or even notified. What we're lacking is a reasonable unblock request. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:49, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

  I can likely explain how Elinruby's edits came about as they did. They and I were involved in a content discussion with Springee that, admittedly, had gotten off topic on the Jordan Peterson page (I concurred such in the thread). In the course of this off-topic discussion Springee raised the contents of this page as contradicting a point Elinruby made in the discussion. Both Elinruby and myself reviewed the page and were alarmed by what we found. However, on account of it being the first warm long-weekend of the year in PEI and me having a rather full schedule I was mostly editing mobile, which leads to me not doing much in the way of labour-intensive editing due to the limitations of the platform. Also my preferred strategy is generally to approach contentious topics via article talk and appropriate noticeboards as soon as I can - which would lead to slower corrections.

  As a result Elinruby ended up taking on much of the work of fixing the POV problems on the page. In general, and notwithstanding the behavioural matters raised here, I think most of their edits to the page were a net-improvement as it had experienced some profound WP:NPOV failings when we saw it. I raised one of these at WP:RS/N and you can see how that turned out here. Simonm223 (talk) 14:59, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

  Generally speaking, Elinruby's content contributions were sound and consistent. However, they appear to have intentionally avoided constructive discussion and consideration of concerns per this on their talk page: as much as possible as quickly as possible because I could hear the drumbeat coming to take me to ANI. Their content work was fine. Their behavior towards fellow editors and unwillingness to accept responsibility for their policy-violating aspersions is the issue. ~ Pbritti (talk) 15:21, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Elinruby has repeatedly lied about their interaction with me and continued to personally insult me on their talk page:

• When asked to provide a reasonable unblock request, they replied with I could apologize for overestimating Pbritti:s reading skills
• They falsely claim The first I ever heard of Pbritti was when he came to my talk page and threatened to take me to ANI, despite me having pinged them multiple times previously in a discussion they had started and them having left an edit summary that acknowledged me prior to said talk page warning
• They claimed a hostile notice they added to their talk page mentions no names–despite pinging me with @Pbritti: please see section below immediately after adding it.
• The block has not dissuaded them from continuing this behavior in the future, as evidenced by their unblock requests and this reply

I am not keen on the project allowing further ROPE for someone who has been warned so many times for their personalizing hostile behavior between ANI and the Arbcom enforcement log. Pinging El C as original blocking admin. ~ Pbritti (talk) 03:36, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

@Pbritti: The diff for left an edit summary is linking to a 2008 revision. – 2804:F14:80E4:8401:DCFE:5436:C21:470C (talk) 03:44, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

@2804:F14:80E4:8401:DCFE:5436:C21:470C: Thanks, I must've deleted a digit. Fixed. ~ Pbritti (talk) 03:47, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose - I do not see anything there that requires revoking TPA. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 20:40, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose. Insufficient to revoke TPA. I would prefer not to extend the current block, having to wait for it to expire sends the right signal for now IMO. NicolausPrime (talk) 21:03, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Oppose because I'm not even convinced that the original block was good. Particularly the triggered accusation seems difficult for me to read in good faith: it's very difficult for me to imagine any good faith editor reading that as a reference to trauma triggers. And upon reading them closely none of the others seem to be anything but curt. I agree Elinruby has not responded great to the block, but like, it seems very kafkaesque to me to block someone because of their behavior in response to a block that shouldn't have happened. Loki (talk) 03:25, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

There appears to be an unusual obsession with analyzing that single word instead of reflecting on the totality of Elinruby's behavior. They weren't blocked over one word. They were blocked for repeated BATTLEGROUND behavior. Additionally, if an editor engages in misconduct following a block, that's still misconduct. ~ Pbritti (talk) 03:29, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Friend, if you are watching this thread so closely that you are responding to new comments within five minutes, may I suggest it's not (just) Elinruby that's guilty of WP:BATTLEGROUND behavior? Loki (talk) 03:42, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

There's a button you can click when you open a discussion that allows you to 'subscribe' to the discussion. This allows a notification to appear when someone replies even if they don't ping you. It spares one from having to add cluttered noticeboards to a watchlist and enables rapid response. Please review what constitutes BATTLEGROUND behavior, as prompt response is not one such action. ~ Pbritti (talk) 03:47, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

I subscribe to discussions regularly. In fact, I subscribed to this discussion right after I first commented, like I normally do when I comment in a discussion. I assure you it does not explain that quick of a response, and it definitely doesn't explain either your bad faith readings of Elinruby's posts nor coming back to the well with more alleged evidence of wrongdoing that nobody else has taken you up on. Loki (talk) 04:34, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

I was reading the Wikipedia article on the movie I was watching and saw the notification of your reply. As bad faith readings go, a reply being prompt is not one such sign—which is why I welcomed your reply only 13 minutes after mine. Please review WP:AGF. ~ Pbritti (talk) 19:39, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Pbritti, just ignore Loki's provocation, it's not worth it. El_C 20:12, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

I have declined their most recent unblock request, and left a warning that any further battleground behavior will result in TPA removal. Let's see if that has an effect. I do agree that, especially since you cannot defend yourself on their talk page, they cannot continue to make personal attacks. --Floquenbeam (talk) 21:26, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Comment I haven't been active too much of late, but browsing ANI this caught my eye as one of my most recent experiences here was a very similar situation with Elinruby – they bludgeoned a thread at ANI in which I had participated almost to death, they misunderstood or misrepresented my position in the discussion, then casted aspersions that were completely detached from reality, and when asked to back down they refused. After I posted evidence to their TP (evidence that they said they were going to get and would confirm their stance, but which actually proved they were wrong) they deleted it and doubled down on their position. I do not believe they need to be given a longer block, and they seem to be active and productive in some areas, but they really need to take a good look at their behaviour. Ostalgia (talk) 16:19, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Jonharojjashi (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

TLDR: These past months Jonharojjashi has been making disruptive off-Wiki coordinations to disrupt Wikipedia together with other users, many being socks/indeffed due to their disruption.

Since I had a screenshot of Jonharojjashi trying to recruit someone into their Discord group for Wikipedia coordination (which they outright denied [17], not the best choice when I have a literal picture, makes you look even more suspicious) I took it to ArbCom per WP:OUTING. They recommended me to come back here to ANI. I believe all these actions were done through the Discord.

These past months there have been a surge of "new" users making the same WP:TENDENTIOUS edits, making use of the same (poor/misused) sources, all in India-related (generally war/battle) articles, many of them being the exact same topic, including poorly written *insert Indian victory here* articles. Because of this, I initially made two SPIs against Jonharojjashi's and co. [18] [19], but they were mostly fruitless.

1. Both accounts created roughly three months between each other. Their EIU [20] shows some quite suspicious stuff, including them edit warring together at Muslim conquests in the Indian subcontinent and kinda repeating each other [21]. Another user who was edit warring with them in that article was Indo12122, a brand new user who is now indeffed (I'll get to that next sub-section).
2. Mr Anonymous 699 and Jonharojjashi also edit warred together at Kambojas in a WP:TENDENTIOUS manner [22]
3. At Kanishka's war with Parthia, Mr Anonymous 699 restored [23] the pov addition of Jonharojjashi.

1. As mentioned above, Indo12122 was also part of the edit warring efforts of Jonharojjashi and the now indeffed user Mr Anonymous 699 at Muslim conquests in the Indian subcontinent [24] [25] [26] [27]
2. After I reverted one of Indo12122's socks, Mr Anonymous 699 randomly reverted me at Chola invasion of Kedah [28]
3. Jonharojjashi made a WP:POVFORK variant of Kingdom of Khotan [29], trying to push a legendary story obviously not supported by WP:RS to Indianize the Kingdom of Khotan. Just coincidentally not long ago one of the socks of Indo12122 also attempted to Indianize the topic in the article itself [30]. More proof that this can't all be a coincidence.
4. When multiple concerns were made over the article at Talk:Chandragupta II's Campaign of Balkh (created by Shakib ul hassan), Indo12122's sock Magadhan3933 suddenly appeared and started defending it. Whats even more suspicious, Magadhan3933 (Indo12122) also created literally the same article Draft:Campaigns of Chandragupta II Vikramaditya two days after Shakib ul hassan, which was even randomly edited by Jonharojjashi [31] [32]

1. Jonharojjashi has a history of making poorly made/sourced POV battle/war articles which conveniently result in the (often decisive) victory for an Indian entity. They initially made such a poor article Vikramaditya's west Oxus valley campaign, which not only use similar citations (Muzaffar and Fodor who are not even WP:RS) as Chandragupta II's Campaign of Balkh by brand new user Shakib ul hassan, but even another user noted that they were quite similar in the comment of the former article; "This seems quite similar to Chandragupta II's Campaign of Balkh, is it the same campaign?".
2. Like Jonharojjashi, Shakib ul hassan also misuses sources, only using the part that satisfies their POV and omitting the rest of what it says as noted by me here [33] [34]. They also both randomly requiested the protection of Chandragupta II's Campaign of Balkh [35] [36] under the false reason of "vandalism" (I'm not sure they understand what the word means).
3. Brand new and now indeffed user HistoricPilled, is a sock of User:Thewikiuser1999, and has a very similar EIA [37] to all these users. As seen in the edit history of Maratha–Sikh Clashes, HistoricPilled and Shakib ul hassan build on each others edits for example. At Bajirao I, they edit warred together [38] [39].

1. Melechha created a wikitable in Ahom–Mughal conflicts [40], which was some days after promptly edited by Jonharojjashi [41]
2. Same here; Melechha creates a Wikitable at Luso–Maratha War (1729–1732) [42], then its heavily edited by Jonharojjashi [43]
3. And the same here again, Melechha creates a Wikitable at Dogra–Tibetan war [44], then heavily edited by Jonharojjashi [45]
4. Indeffed user Aryan330 and Melechha's sock EditorPandit edited warred at Maratha–Portuguese War (1683–1684) [46] [47]. Guess who joined them later? That is right, Jonharojjashi [48]
5. Melechha's sock Msangharak trying to save the then POV infested Kanishka's war with Parthia by Jonharojjashi after it got nominated for deletion [49] [50] [51] [52] [53]

Jonharojjashi more or less restored [54] the unsourced edit [55] by Rowlatt11's sock Daayush.

In made response to my previous ANI [56], Jonharojjashi made a ridiculous SPI [57] of me and many other users who had called them out for their disruption. Instead of addressing the points, they simply dismissed the whole report as "WP:HOUNDING" and "biting newcomers", so I'm not going to reply to their incoming comments here unless an admin wants me to.

There is no way that these all coincidences, how many indeffed users/socks have Jonharojjashi interacted with in such a short time? Especially when I have a literally picture of Jonharojjashi trying to recruit members and denying it. These indeffed users/socks are no doubt members of the Discord. Jonharojjashi and the Discord they lead should not be allowed to edit here. --HistoryofIran (talk) 21:59, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

So this is the third time HistoryofIran has distressed me with his unfruitful SPIs and ANIs, these several attempts made by them to indef me, shows how much they are craved. If they can't prove me doing On-wiki canvassing then they are trying to get me blocked for doing alleged off wiki canvassing. Nevertheless I'll again refute all the points made by historyofIran for me doing any kind of sockpuppetry or meatpuppetry.

"I believe all these actions were done through the Discord. Yes, you believe, I don't know what you have got to prove me doing Off-wiki canvassing but feel free to show all of those unsubstantiated evidence to ArbCom. And they will just shut your case just like your other cases were closed as those were nothing but unrelated call and two different users.

Anyone can claim that they have got some literal pictures and screenshots of tagging/meatpuppetry even the nom can furnish such pictures because as we know you and ImperialAficionado have been trying to indef me and don't know how many newcomers have been indeffed because of your teamwork (not defending the guilty but have seen them tagging on multiple occasions). Note that HistoryofIran has got some personal issues with me in the past so it's obvious that he'd form a prejudice towards me even though he has been proven wrong and caught of lying just to demean me. According to them, every article made by me is poorly written/sourced but he has been proven wrong multiple times and as I said even caught of lying.

Now coming to the HistoryofIran's attempt to link me with these indeffed accounts and previously these accounts were proven to be unrelated with me.

1. HistoryofIran himself yelled that the difference between the creation of my account and Mr. Anonymous 699's account is more than 3 months, considering such a huge gap doesn't even call for a suspicion that this account is somewhat related to me moreover a check user will confirm this. Anyone can spy and can see others' activity so it's no surprise that they have been following me and indulged in any edit warring. And what is pov addition of Johnrajjoshi? It's clearly a sourced addition which is still present in the article body of

Kanishka's war with Parthia Why are you still lying?

1. 2 Indo12122 and Mr. Anonymous 699 could be a pair of sock but to say that just because a sock account is related to another suspect doesn't mean that they could be related to me. In fact I was the victim of unattributed usage of my contents in Chandragupta II's Campaign of Balkha the creator of this page Shakib ul hassan copied my content without giving any attributions. This proves that these suspected users were spying on my works and even published their own article after copying mine without my consent and instead of grouping me with them, historyofiran should group these suspected users with themselves.
2. The wikitables created by Melechha were on the hot articles which means those articles are watched by hundred thousands per month so it'd be obvious that my and other wiki editor's attention would get there but to say that we are connected to each other through sockpuppetry is a baseless allegation and perhaps historyofIran has forgot about their tagging with ImperialAficionado and DeepstoneV and how they were tagging with each other on various occasions [58]. If I had done such coordinated taggings with these alleged suspected users then I'm sure historyofIran would have found more ways to get me indeffed. I had made a SPI on ImperialAficionado by showing how these users are tagging/allying with each other and have made a sect and group against newcomers.
3. more or less? Just stop suspecting me with some random sock users. There is a bold difference in these edits, in mine [59] I have edited it on the basis of Rabatak inscription whereas Rowlatt11 had cited a secondary source [60] I don't see any relation in it and besides Kanishka's religion is a hot topic of discussion so it'd be obvious that many user will do edits in it but that doesn't mean you'll now relate all of them with me, amusing enough that HistoryofIran is trying to relate me with any far distant user.

Jonharojjashi (talk) 19:30, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

A poor, cherrypicked response which barely addressed half the stuff I said. As I expected. HistoryofIran (talk) 21:03, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

And what's so cheery picked in it? Jonharojjashi (talk) 09:41, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm not getting involved in the discussion of sock/meat issues or behavioral problems, but I've encountered issues with two of their articles I attempted to verify with sources. One article I submitted for AFD and it was deleted (Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Extermination of Nagadhatta. )Today, I examined another article created by Jonharojjashi, Gauda–Gupta War, and found significant issues within it. While I addressed some of these concerns during the AFD (see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gauda–Gupta War), the problems extend beyond a few isolated ones. While I've found several issues just within two of their articles, I'm concerned that other pages created by them may follow a similar pattern. I recommend a review of their articles.--Imperial^[AFCND] 17:34, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

I was not sure why Jonharojjashi restricted the timeframe of the Gupta–Hunnic Wars to 534, especially when there are sources (now cited by me) indicating that the conflicts extended until the fall of the Guptas in 550, largely due to White Hunnic invasions (with the result parameter likely favoring the Huns). It appears there may have been an effort to portray a "Gupta victory" by limiting the duration of the war, allowing the Guptas to appear successful in their final campaign up to 534. I have made a small major copyedit in the infobox section, by extending the duration to all the way upto the end of the war, and limiting the big list of the territorial changes to the final outcome of the territory. Issues have been addressed by tagging. Imperial^[AFCND] 18:51, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

A random user appeared at Gupa-Hunnic Wars, and reverted my edits; and replaced it with Gupta victory again [61], similar to Jonharojjashi, the user justified the reason by highlighting the upper hand of Guptas during an intermediate stage of the War [62]. Editor used poor sources; and ofcourse limited time period of the War, so it wasn't a heavy task to find a reason to revert. BUT! since then the user left, Jonharojjashi appeared the scene and reverted to his version (indeed time period limited to a definite time in such a way that could be counted as a victory for Guptas), and surprisingly made a request for protection of the page, accusing me and the above user being edit warred [63]. Made a comment on the talk section requesting us ro stop a non existing edit warring and didn't even give proper reasons for reverting to the version;nor said anything about the result parameter.[64]. --Imperial^[AFCND] 18:03, 3 May 2024 (UTC)

Another brand new user appearing out of nowhere and doing the exact same as Jonharojjashi? Must be another random coincidence, and not anything to do with the Discord /s. HistoryofIran (talk) 22:24, 5 May 2024 (UTC)

Responding to relevant points in @ImperialAficionado's first comment:-

• The discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gauda–Gupta War is still ongoing and anyone can see that you are either procrastinating or making excuses to provide proper reasoning that how the article holds weak sources, OR and synthesis.

Responding to relevant points in @ImperialAficionado's second comment:-

• I see no point in bringing this issue here when I have alr cleared all their doubts at Talk:Gupta–Hunnic Wars.

Instead of sticking to the topic, historyofIran and ImperialAficionado seem to be enjoying more in off-topic discussions. As we see ImperialAficionado first pinging historyofIran just to tell them see how funny he posted this on my talk page and disregarding sources provided by me. What is ridiculous is that one of the sources cited by ImperialAficionado (Dictionary of Wars) is now considered as unreliable by historyofIran but as per RSN it is reliable, I wonder why HistoryofIran then didn't oppose ImperialAficionado for adding this unreliable source (according to them). (Could be WP:TAGTEAM?) For the timeline of the War, I have provided them with Bakker's timeline of the Gupta-Hunnic struggle but they keep neglecting it and instead of focusing on the topic of the discussion they derailed it with useless laughable talks at the end. Note that the other sources cited by ImperialAficionado do not give a single reference for any involved belligerents victory and merely talk around the fall of the Gupta Empire. Again see Talk:Gupta–Hunnic Wars#Constant_disruption.

Responding to relevant points in @ImperialAficionado's third comment:-

• Strange how ImperialAficionado didn't bother to put the whole context here, alright I'll do this for him.

I have explained the reason for reverting your edits at Talk:Gupta–Hunnic Wars and placed warning templates on their talk page which was being removed by ImperialAficionado. They removed it not only from their own talk page [65] but they also tried to do the same from user Mnbnjghiryurr's talk page, which was later reverted by [66] Jonharojjashi (talk) 15:13, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Thats not the whole context. And its still not a good idea to suggest that me and Imperial are tagteaming with all the evidence I have of you here - because if we’re tagteaming, we’re going to have to find a new word for you and your Discord group. You’re trying to shift the focus, and it’s not going to work. HistoryofIran (talk) 16:43, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Malik-Al-Hind (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

My god, can they make it less obvious?

1. Both Jonharojjashi [67] and brand new User:Malik-Al-Hind [68] use the obscure and poor source written by a non-historian Dictionary of Wars
2. Both fixiated on making poorly sourced WP:SYNTH war/conflict articles where the Indian part wins [69] [70]
3. Like Jonharojjashi [71], Malik-Al-Hind also tries to overinflate Gupta territory/history through source misuse (WP:SYNTH) [72] [73]
4. Both Jonharojjashi [74] and Malik-Al-Hind [75] are fixated on me not focusing on User:DeepstoneV. --HistoryofIran (talk) 12:35, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't know much about Johnarojjashi but I noticed that he has similar edits like DeepstoneV (as they both edit around Ancient indian history). Since I don't know about him so I can only reply to the accusations on me.

Firstly, I'd apologize if the book I cited is not written by a historian but I found that cited in Afghan-Maratha War, so I thought it would be a WP:RS.

Secondly, my draft is well sourced, you can raise the issue at the talk page. I'll surely fix it.

Thirdly, you were extending the topic with different discussion but still I preferred answering your doubts instead of raising concerns of diverting topic, you even played the game of "response and skip" in the discussion and you only arrived there in the interval of 2-3 days (why?), I had quoted RS to clear your doubts, the other users (Flemish Neitz.. and Based Kasmiri) also supported my view so don't just accuse me of doing synthing.

Fourthly, Because of User DeepstoneV the Gupta Empire page was protected (requested by me) and they have removed several sourced contents from diff articles (reverted by me[76][77][78][79]) but instead of warning them you chose to support deepstoneV for no reason, even if they did disruptive edits. Malik-Al-Hind (talk) 19:23, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Actually, my “doubts” ended up being real, as you did indeed misuse WP:RS to overinflate Gupta territory, which Flemmish also ended up calling you out for [80]. But long live dishonesty I guess. The rest of your comment dont even deserve an answer, seems like you and Jonharojjashi are using the same poor lines to respond to me. HistoryofIran (talk) 05:40, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

Here we go again, @Malik Al Hind If you don't know much about me then why do you want to link me with DeepstoneV? Just stop this nonsense. And why are you apologizing to Historyofiran for using this book? As per RSN it is a reliable book [81], we are not binded by their dictatorship but only Wikipedia policies and guidelines, (as expected historyofIran keeps biting newcomers). Interestingly they didn't oppose the addition of the same source by ImperialAficionado [82]. Tag teaming goes hard. Note that when I raised the same issue for defending poor edits of deepstoneV, they removed my comment from their talk page [83] because they don't want hear anything against their tag team members. Jonharojjashi (talk) 15:20, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

The whataboutism resumes once again. This report is not about me, Imperial nor Deepstone, but your discord group. And please dont put words in my mouth, I removed you from my talk page because I dont want a meatpuppet leader in my talk page. HistoryofIran (talk) 16:13, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

They could in fact not make it less obvious. Malik-Al-Hind [84] [85] and Jonharojjashi [86] misusing the EXACT same uncertain quote by R.K. Mookerji to get more pride points by having their favourite Gupta Empire "conquer/win" against x thing. Can't wait for the excuse/whataboutism on this one - can we please just indeff this whole group? --HistoryofIran (talk) 21:49, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Sudsahab (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

1. Both Jonharojjashi [87] [88] and indeffed user Sudsahab [89] use the incredibly obscure and obviously non-WP:RS by a non-historian Bharat's Military Conquests In Foreign Lands
2. Both make poorly sourced WP:SYNTH war articles with no source for the date of when it started, heck the start date doesnt even appear in the body/lead of the article [90] [91]. Notice that there are only a few days between the creation of the articles 2 March 2024 9 March 2024, this is not a coincidence that they both create an article related to a Saka "campaign/war". --HistoryofIran (talk) 12:56, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Now this. Sudsahab has already asked me to help them improve their article [92] and as I said their, I was busy back then within working on my own drafts and replying to these ANIs. Beyond that I know nothing what happened to them or their sock, keep me outta this.

I hope historyofIran knows that anyone can see others contributions and edit history, so isn't it obvious that Sudsahab could be influenced by the source used by me? In fact the book Bharat's Military Conquests In Foreign Lands. is quite popular among South Asians. So I don't claim copyright of it, anyone can read it if they want. Jonharojjashi (talk) 15:24, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

At this rate you might as well give me an invite so I can craft a better excuse for you. The two articles were created BEFORE your conversation with Sudsahab, and I dont see him asking you to create that article either for that matter. And ah yes, the non-WP:RS by a obscure, non-historian is no doubt popular amongst South Asians, and who are more than 2 billion a that. Do you have a source for that? HistoryofIran (talk) 16:33, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

पापा जी (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

पापा जी is a "brand new user", yet they are already aware of WP:SYNTH [93] and WP:NPOV [94]. Their first edit was restoring info in an article by Shakib ul hassan [95], does this edit summary seem like that of a new user to you? using "rv" in their very first edit summary. They then immediately went to support the deletion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Arab conquest of Kaikan ‎and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Maratha invasion of Awadh. Not even remotely close to the traditional journey of a new user, good thing they're trying to hide it. --HistoryofIran (talk) 12:50, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran, please stop non-archiving this thread. You have been warned about this previously. The administrators do not appear to be interested in this report. It's time to close and move on. I have removed the no-archive. BoldGnome (talk) 05:59, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

@BoldGnome: That was not a warning, it wasn't by an admin either, and the reported user ended up getting topic banned for one year, so clearly it was worth having the DNAU. Have you read this report? Can you please tell me what the report is missing here instead of just simply removing the DNAU, which is not helping this project? It's extremely concerning that we clearly have a Discord group that is slowly gaining monopoly over a section of Wikipedia articles, and no one is batting an eye. It's a shame, perhaps if I made this report more dramatic, it would get more attention, because that's what seems to be popular at ANI these past years - drama. Clearly, my report has validity per this [96] [97]. HistoryofIran (talk) 13:02, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Has somebody reported the server to Discord employees? Discord servers are meant to communicate, not to be used as a launchpad for disruption. Ahri Boy (talk) 13:29, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment. I unfortunately don't think Discord will care/understand, and worst case scenario they could always make a new group through new accounts. I don't have the name of the Discord either, I just have a screenshot from Discord of Jonharojjashi trying to recruit someone and talking about their "team" working on two (POV ridden) articles which are currently on Wikipedia. Jonharojjashi constantly denying that they have a Discord group should alone be a big red flag enough to raise suspicion. I'll gladly send the screenshot to any interested admin. HistoryofIran (talk) 13:39, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

According to Section 19 of Discord Community Guidelines, they may not be allowed to create accounts that would evade platform-level sanctions, if the server or the user is banned. Discord is very closely regulating the use of servers. Ahri Boy (talk) 16:53, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

From what I can see, a big problem is that the key evidence of meatpuppetry coordinated over Discord is something that we can't actually see. You say you sent the evidence to Arbcom and they advised you to come here. It would be helpful if an Arb who has seen the evidence could post here and tell us whether it is compelling. Until then, as an admin and SPI regular I'm not really comfortable taking action based on information that I don't have. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 22:14, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, this constant DNAU-adding is essentially WP:FORUMSHOPPING ("raising essentially the same issue ... on one [noticeboard] repetitively, is unhelpful to finding and achieving consensus"). HistoryofIran made a "closing remark" a month ago; they seem to think they have the authority to decide what is worth having at ANI, but as far as I can see, they don't. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 16:44, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

I never stated that I have any form of authority. It's disappointing to see a veteran user act like this. I hope you're glad that you got to take that dig at me. Who cares about the Discord meatpuppets right? Let them run amok. HistoryofIran (talk) 17:27, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Discord meatputppets will be easily detected upon reporting with sufficient evidence to Discord employees. Ahri Boy (talk) 23:30, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

First time I've been called a "veteran", so thanks for that, I guess. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 02:47, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

That was what you got out of my response...? HistoryofIran (talk) 02:57, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

That's not how forum shopping works. The issue is not being raised "repetitively". And quite frankly, HistoryofIran has a very good track record when it comes to ANI reports. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 19:40, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

I know that they have a good track record. I was the one who first notified them about how to use DNAU. I did not think that they would use it to keep their own agitations at ANI indefinitely. Yes, the issue is not being raised "repetitively" in fact, but in spirit it has the same effect, as the same thread, without resolution, is constantly being prohibited from archiving. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 02:47, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

You did not introduce me to DNAU, that was another user. Calling my reports (the vast majority which leads to the reported user being blocked/banned) for my "own agitations" is frankly at WP:ASPERSIONS territory, do better. HistoryofIran (talk) 02:54, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

DNAU? Phil Bridger (talk) 20:27, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

It's a template that stops a thread from auto-archiving [98]. HistoryofIran (talk) 23:18, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you. Phil Bridger (talk) 07:40, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Comment about DNAUs by User:HistoryofIran: The near-systematic addition of a very long DNAUs ("Do Not Archive Until...") by User:HistoryofIran to his ANI filings is a probable instance of WP:GAMING THE SYSTEM. This ANI page (Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents) is set-up with a 72-hours auto-archive function ("Sections inactive for 72 hours are archived automatically by Lowercase sigmabot III"), designed to expedite process: matters that do not attract traction are meant to be archived, after 72 hours without new input. On the contrary, User:HistoryofIran uses repeated and rolling DNAUs [99] to abuse the system and give undue exposure to his filings. The net effect of such DNAUs is that they distort the usual ANI process, and give unfair prominence to filings that do not otherwise trigger User or Administrative attention, and encourage drive-by input. He recently obtained a hefty Topic ban against me (1 year... [100]) after forcing his filing for 42 days [101], despite protestations by User:AirshipJungleman29 for this abuse of the system ("It is not your responsibility to clerk this page on behalf of the administrators by altering this intended feature of how ANI functions" [102]). Overall his 42-days filing received little input from regular Users or Administrators, even though the filing was top-of-the-page for several weeks: a few veteran users who looked at the evidence explained that the filing was to a large extent without merit, but the lengthy DNAU ensured that a few random users also voted and tipped the balance [103]. An Administrator with nearly no contributions (about 50 contributions a year) then closed with a hefty Topic ban, claiming a consensus [104]. By playing with DNAUs, User:HistoryofIran is obviously abusing the system in attempts to obtain an unfair advantage against users he disagrees with. If I played by his rules, I would recommend a long-term block of User:HistoryofIran for repeated abuse of an administrative system (not even taking into account his constant pro-Iranian POV), and make sure my filing stays 2 months at ANI through repeated DNAUs, with constant repeating of my accusations... पाटलिपुत्र (Pataliputra) (talk) 11:32, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

This is a bad-faith revenge report. I never intended on abusing anything, and I wonder why you didn't comment about it at the time (including the arguments I presented to AirshipJungleman29's comment [105] [106]), and first now. And in the ANI thread you were told to stop casting WP:ASPERSIONS (such as the attack you made attack KhndzorUtogh for merely calling you out for WP:OR "Like it or not, and I'm sorry of I hurt some Armenian sensitivities..."), yet you are doing the very same now. And I did not merely "disagree" with you, there were legitimate concerns about you (hence why every voting user at least agreed on you getting restricted from adding images, so the claim that "a few veteran users who looked at the evidence explained that the filing was to a large extent without merit" is very dishonest), the fact that you still don't see that is concerning. For those interested, here is the report [107]. HistoryofIran (talk) 12:04, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Creating a subthread for non-participants in the distpute to get their responses in, in a centralized spot.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:42, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

• It seems pretty obvious that something untoward is going on here. I'm not really certain what the propriety is of joining the Reddit in question and observing the behavior in detail and how it may correlate with on-WP action. Probably not necessary, and hard to do without outing-related issues. It seems sufficient that this editor (Jonharojjashi) is habitually citing poor sources, misusing better ones in an OR matter, and PoV-forking at will, all to push a viewpoint that is clearly counter-historical and India-promotional. That they're frequently collaborating with sock- and meat-puppets to do it is probably only of incidental interest, especially since the puppets are routinely blocked anyway without AN/I needing to be involved. I'm not sure if this just calls for a topic-ban (perhaps a time-limited but non-trivial one), or if further action is needed, like listing various of the crap sources at WP:RSNP so there is less future question about editors trying to rely on them in our material.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:42, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

  Subreddits and Discord servers in question must be reported to respective admins of those sites. Provide evidence as soon as possible. Ahri Boy (talk) 02:06, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

  • Oration - Thank you, User:SMcCandlish, for asking for community responses, presumably including completely uninvolved community responses, to this excessively long thread about this long-running conflict. This drama has been playing out for a month, and waiting for a prince. A Greek tragedy often ends with a deus ex machina. A Shakespearean tragedy often ends with what should be called a princeps ex machina, in which a high-ranking person shows up unexpectedly and gives a closing speech. (Look at Hamlet (play) or Macbeth (play).) Since Wikipedia is not an aristocracy, we can continue to argue for a long time until someone assumes the role of the prince. Or we can all be silent for a few days so that this great monster with tentacles goes away.
  • The community has never done very well with cases involving off-wiki coordination. ArbCom has sometimes been able to deal more effectively with such cases. Here are the ways that we, the community, can end this case:
  • 1. Someone can make a proposal for a sanction that gains support, and a closer can play the role of the prince and pronouncing the sanction.
  • 2. There can be some failed proposals, and then someone can play the role of the prince in declaring that there is No Consensus. This will have the added value that, when this dispute flares up again, it can reasonably be said to ArbCom that the community was unable to resolve the dispute.
  • 3. Someone can write a Request for Arbitration, focusing on off-wiki coordination, which has sometimes in the past been dealt with by ArbCom.
  • 4. We can all be quiet for a few days, and the sea monster will disappear, as if the community will be silent long enough.
  • I have completely uninvolved to this point, and I don't have a proposal. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:43, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

The user Ribosome786 has repeatedly made personal attacks by using blatant derogatory slurs (like F and N words) in their edit summaries [108][109][110], the user continuosly doing poor and disruptive edits, they also seems to be involved in sockpuppetry; see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Mohammad Umar Ali. Clearly they're WP:NOTHERE to build Wikipedia. Based.Kashmiri ^(🗨️) 13:57, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

I've left a warning on their talk, and same for the other user they're sparring with. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 14:09, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

That helps, Thanks. Based.Kashmiri ^(🗨️) 15:59, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

See here. [111][112] where User:4meter4 has twice hatted directly relevant on-topic comments I made in direct response to a good-faith request for evidence regarding DYK BLP-related issues. It seems apparent from reading the thread that several individuals wish to exert control over the discussion, and to prevent some issues being raised. If this is indeed their intention, the broader community might like to take into consideration whether it might be more appropriate to conduct such discussions elsewhere, where such questionable control could less easily be exerted. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:29, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Andy, a person who has been murdered is not living. Once someone is dead, they are no longer a WP:BLP. We are specifically looking at living people because the focus of the RFC is on BLP compliance. A murder victim by definition is not living, so this isn't a usable or relevant example to this particular RFC.4meter4 (talk) 19:36, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I suggest you read what WP:BLP actually says. WP:BLP policy now, and WP:BLP policy back when the DYK you don't want discussed was posted on the main page. Policy then, and policy now, is equally clear that the recently deceased - and perhaps more importantly their living friends, relatives etc - deserve dignity. Not lurid tabloid headlines about someone who had been murdered and had their body disposed of in a canal only three weeks previously. My evidence was absolutely within the scope of WP:BLP, and absolutely relevant to any serious attempt to deal with what appear to be long-term systemic issues with DYK. If indeed this is to be treated as a serious attempt to do so. I believe that was the intention of the person starting the discussion, but it is becoming increasingly difficult to make the same assumption about some of the other participants there. They apparently aren't even prepared to wait for responses from other potential participants before trying to set arbitrary rules of their own over the scope of discussion. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:49, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Just going to point out there's some nebulous leeway at WP:BLP that can apply to persons who are recently deceased, should that be the point of contention:
Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—must be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion. Italics mine, bold in original.WP:BDP also covers the recently deceased in a bit more detail. That said, it seems like the subject died in 2012, to which I would expect any reasonable person to consider as not a recent death. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 19:47, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

No, it isn't a recent death now. It was when the DYK was plastered over the main page, three weeks after McCluskie died. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:50, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

A DYK that ran in March 2012, which was approximately 12 years ago. You were asked repeatedly to provide current examples, which you refuse to do. Viriditas (talk) 19:54, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I have already explained why I consider it relevant. I see no reason to repeat myself. As for being 'asked to provide' examples, the exact opposite is going on - as when people accuse me of 'sabotage' for even participating in a post below. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:08, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Move to close this ANI report as needless, frivolous, and without merit. 4meter4 is trying to help, not hinder discussion. Viriditas (talk) 19:41, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Aren't you a little too involved to be making such a proposal? AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:51, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

@Viriditas: that or a BOOMERANG. Therapyisgood (talk) 19:42, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Andy, you're being disruptive. I'm having a hard time not seeing this as almost sabotage. 4meter4 is trying to fix something you have been complaining about for over a decade. Maybe you should consider taking WT:DYK off your watch. Valereee (talk) 19:51, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

'Sabotage'? For pointing out serious problems with BLP-related DYKs, in a thread asking for evidence about problems with BLP-related DYKs? The only 'sabotage' (or at least disruption) seems to be coming from those who jumped in as soon as I posted, trying to exclude my evidence. A sincere question was asked. I gave a sincere response. And now, rather than letting anyone else participate with their own comments on their own evidence, they are confronted with an ever-growing and obviously off-putting tangential mess. If my evidence is agreed, when all is done, to be of little concern, then why would it matter so much anyway? Why is everyone so concerned to exert control over the thread? And how is such control even remotely appropriate in the context of such discussions? AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:04, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Andy, you've indicated you're going to enter into evidence anything and everything from a decade+ ago. The discussion is about how to fix what's happening now. I've created(?) a sortable table. If you're intent upon entering into evidence everything from the past 12+ years, fine. Valereee (talk) 20:07, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

No I have not indicated you're going to enter into evidence anything and everything from a decade+ ago. I clearly and unambiguously stated that I have no intention of bringing 'every DYK I've ever objected to in the past 12+ years' here. I brought up two, because they were clearly relevant to a discussion which seems on the face of it to be focussed around adressing systemic issues. Please don't make things up. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:11, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Except most of the discussion participants repeatedly told you that old evidence wasn't relevant. Anyway, let's cut to the chase. I just proposed the "No BLP rule" on the DYK talk page you are working your way up to proposing. Why not just get down to brass tacks? Viriditas (talk) 20:13, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

As of now, I have no firm proposals. Or none that would stand much chance of gaining community approval. And why exactly, if you consider a 'no BLP rule' to be appropriate, are you objecting to me showing why it is needed? AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:21, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Well, that's not what I wrote up above or on the DYK talk page. I said that the reason I added it for discussion is because it is the natural endpoint of your argument. You also have some unknown measure of support for it. My guess is that the reason you are waiting to do this is because you feel that you can work people up to it with some kind of persuasion campaign. On the other hand, I prefer to face reality head on, and think we should discuss it immediately. I have not expressed any support or opposition for the idea, other than a separate informal proposal on the DYK talk page that would allow reviewers to discard/reject so-called controversial nominations provided some kind of conditions are met. Viriditas (talk) 20:29, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

For using examples over a decade old in a discussion about current practices. Valereee (talk) 20:35, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

This hatting is wrongly-justified - WP:BLP would absolutely apply to someone murdered only weeks prior. No comment on hatting due to being an 'old example', but to be 100% clear, BLP applies to recently-deceased people and would 100% apply to the Gemma McCluskie article/hook back in 2012. Daniel (talk) 20:02, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

It does, and it did according to 2012 policy too. Which is why it took so little effort to get it pulled from the main page, once I'd raised it at WP:ANI. AndyTheGrump (talk) 20:25, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

• I voted against sanctions on the last thread to appear on this board based on the assumption that a 24 hour block would be way too short to do anything preventative, and would thus be purely punitive. I am now forced to confront the fact that voting differently would have prevented this thread from appearing at ANI. I don't see how anyone could have expected a twelve year old example to stand uncontested in a discussion about what is happening on wikipedia now. The correct response to someone challenging you on this would have been to come up with an example within the last year or so, not to take it here. --Licks-rocks (talk) 21:13, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

  The argument that events that occurred twelve years ago are of no relevance would be more convincing if anyone were to show that things have actually changed in any substantive way since then. I don't believe they have. The underlying causes have never been properly addressed as far as I can tell, which is why the discussion is taking place. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:25, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

  You posted examples of bad things that happened 12 years ago, and you think now it's up to someone else to demonstrate that those things are no longer happening? Seriously, this approach makes sense to you? Levivich (talk) 21:31, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

  No, I posted evidence regarding events 12 years ago. People then claimed they were no longer relevant. I asked what has changed to prevent such things occurring again - in a thread started because there clearly are similar problems, even now. Nobody has answered my question. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:35, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

  Nobody cares what happened 12 years ago at DYK. You cannot demonstrate that there is an ongoing problem by showing that there was a problem 12 years ago--you need to show ongoing, which means problems between 12 years ago and now--or really, like everyone is asking you, just show recent problems. I'm sure you understand this, which leaves me wondering why you would argue otherwise, to the point of taking it to ANI. It feels like you're trying to get yourself sanctioned, and trying very hard at that, and I don't understand why. Like you could not be less collaborative in this venture unless you started dropping slurs. 4meter agrees with you (on the BLP issues) if you haven't noticed, and you took them to ANI because... they collapsed your 12-year-old evidence? WTF are you thinking? If you've been drinking or something, walk away from the keyboard now. I'm at an honest loss about why you would try to disrupt the very process you tried so hard to start. It's just pure self-sabotage behavior at this point. Levivich (talk) 21:43, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

  Can you point to where everyone was asking me to submit more recent evidence? I don't see that: what I do see however is an attempt to stop me submitting anything. Including things I had no intention of submitting in the first place. And no, I'm not drunk. Been on the wagon since, um, 2012 or so. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:00, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

  Sure, let me quote some examples from the WT:DYK page:

  • "If it hasn't happened in twelve years then it's not a recurring problem. This is why 12-year-old evidence sucks." - That's me, and perhaps it wasn't clear but this was an implicit request for more recent evidence.
  • "Again over a decade ago. Let's focus on current issues?", "Andy, I don't think anyone would disagree these were bad. But let's focus on today's issues.", "Andy, I mean this absolutely sincerely: why? If we want to fix now, let's focus on now." - that's val asking 3 times
  • "Old evidence doesn't get us any closer to this answer. The majority of the respondents to this discussion have asked you to provide current evidence only. I'm asking you as well." - that's Viriditas

  Oh and here's a bonus:

  • "All BLP examples, regardless how old, will be accepted." - that's 4meter, the editor you've brought to ANI, and it directly undercuts your statement above that "what I do see however is an attempt to stop me submitting anything"

  Let it sink in: the editor you brought to ANI (1) agrees with you about a BLP problem at DYK, (2) has volunteered their time to start an analysis of said problem, and (3) explicitly said all evidence should be accepted regardless of how old, so they even defend your 12-year-old evidence. And you call this "an attempt to stop me submitting anything"? Because somebody hatted a part of that. I hope you can recognize how illogical this is. Levivich (talk) 22:22, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

  Sorry, but I'm not going to debate logic with someone who thinks that it is appropriate to make evidence-free allegations of drunkenness in an ANI thread. If that were actually appropriate, I could probably point to actual evidence that might suggest the same - regarding people complaining that I'd supplied evidence, people complaining that I intended to submit more, and then complaining that I hadn't submitted any more. If I wasn't firmly on the wagon, after all that I might very well see the merits of a stiff drink. If my head is going to spin, I might as well enjoy it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:32, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

  Sigh, you know damn well that "If you've been drinking or something, walk away from the keyboard now" is not an allegation of drunkenness. And even if it were, so what? If somebody is inexplicably acting irrationally, impairment is a legitimate question. But I'm done spending any more of my time trying to save you from yourself. You want to be indef'd or TBANed DYK, have at it. Believe me, though, nobody is going to view you as a victim here. Levivich (talk) 22:37, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

  The burden of proof for your own claims is on no-one else but you. Also, this is ANI, very explicitly not the place for you to litigate content disputes. --Licks-rocks (talk) 22:27, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

• @AndyTheGrump I'd like to know why this was taken straight to ANI? It seems unnecessarily combative. We could have talked about this civilly on my talk page, as this was simply a misunderstanding over the relevance of the evidence. I was unaware of the recently deceased portion of the BLP policy. Anyways, I have added the example to the table in a neutral manner, so the issue brought up here is no longer relevant. Please avoid editorializing evidence and simply present links and a short description of the problem in the tables that have been created. I know others may disagree, but for the sake of objectivity I think we should accept older evidence. As I stated at the DYK talk page, editors are smart enough to know how to weigh older versus newer incidents in their comments. My guess is some will question the relevance of the older evidence at the RFC, and others will not. I don't think it will derail the RFC to be more inclusive in the evidence gathering process. Best.4meter4 (talk) 21:37, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

  My edit summary, when I reverted your initial hatting: Read WP:BLP. Read WP:BLP from 2012. Both make it absolutely clear that this DYK was within the scope of policy. And note that when you hatted it, I had already pointed out in my initial post in the thread you hatted that WP:BLP policy, then and now, was clearly in scope. If you failed to read WP:BLP after all that, it is down to you, and I really don't see why I should have been expected to discuss anything on the talk page of someone who then hatted the material again with no edit summary at all. That looks like a refusal to engage, not a request to talk it over. As for your comments about the relevance of older evidence, I have already tried to make the same point. The decision as to what is or isn't relevant needs to be made collectively, after an appropriate time has elapsed, when people can assess submissions as a whole. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:53, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

  Actually, I wasn't aware that you had removed it. I mistakenly thought I hadn't saved the page as I have been having internet connectivity issues, and was in the middle of trying to set some guideline for productive posts. But this is besides the point, ANI shouldn't be the first step in conflict resolution. Please assume good faith and try and work with others through personal messages first rather than going directly to ANI. You are much more likely to win allies that way. I will set up a discussion thread for evidence issues to keep it separate from the list section. One reason why I hatted that conversation is I felt it could persuade others to not post evidence. We really need to keep the evidence gathering section simple and discussion free in order to not dissuade people from participating. If the evidence gathering area gets heated it could stop people from wanting to participate and choosing to put evidence forward which would harm the progression and ultimate outcome of the RFC.4meter4 (talk) 22:31, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

  The evidence section was entirely 'simple and discussion free' until people objected to me submitting any. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:38, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

  Well I have accepted that submission. It's in the table. Let's move on.4meter4 (talk) 23:02, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't see that this needs to be on ANI. OTOH, in an RFC of that sort it seems unhelpful for a involved editors to try to clerk in such ways, and especially to keep trying to clerk when there is dispute and where they clerking seems to be at least partially based on a serious misunderstanding of BLP. Also I'll be blunt that anyone who's understanding of BLP is so poor that they think it does not apply to the recently deceased probably shouldn't be so extensively involved in discussing the interaction of BLP-DYK anyway. Leave that for editors who actually understand BLP. Note also while there may be reasonable dispute over whether it's helpful to have such an old example it seems if the better solution if there is dispute over the hatting would be for editors who feel it's irrelevant to just say it's too old to be considered if needed and not participate in further discussion, rather than try and enforce a hatting. Ultimately the discussion would not be too distracting if editors do not participate. Nil Einne (talk) 00:19, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

@Nil Einne I may not be a BLP policy expert, but I don't think there is anyone else willing to take this on. I don't think it would be happening otherwise. I don't generally coordinate group discussions, and I would hope making some mistakes along the way would be met with some grace per WP:AGF. I have participated in many BLP related disputes at DYK in the last year; none of them involving recently deceased individuals, which is why my working memory on BLP issues had a gap. This is also not an RFC yet, so please don't refer to me as an RFC clerk. It's a talk page discussion gathering input before an official RFC proposal is made. The whole point of it is to draw on communal input in framing an RFC discussion. Other editors at DYK who want to assist and take on a leadership role are welcome and encouraged to pitch in, and I am trying to respond and adapt to others input as I go with an open heart and sense of service. I hope I will not be the only one involved in coordinating the discussion. We now have a table set up in the posting evidence section, and I will have a separate place for discussion if there are issues with anything posted in the table. What I wanted to avoid was lengthy disputes inside what was supposed to be a list. That is disruptive visually to a working list, and makes it hard to locate listed items. It's my fault for not having anticipated a need for a place to discuss disputed evidence ahead of time that was in a separate location from the list itself.4meter4 (talk) 01:34, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict) This is what it looks like when an editor has carte blanche to flip tables over and generally go nuts. I agree with Kusma who told ATG (paraphrase) help review or check prep sets - don't scare away the participants. I could hardly read the WT:DYK page as a result of foot stomping. It is not helpful or collegial. Lightburst (talk) 04:19, 16 May 2024 (UTC) my comments are not not needed.

1. AndyTheGrump opened a thread at WP:ANI referring to DYK contributors as "idiots".[113]
2. 4meter4 responded to the legitmate WP:BLP concerns in that thread by starting a discussion to list problematic DYK nominations and discuss common problems.[114]
3. AndyTheGrump responded by linking to discussions from over a decade ago where he called DYK contributors "halfwit"s and "morons".[115]
4. 4 different editors explained why this was derailing the discussion. ATG responded by casting aspersions about how "some would apparently prefer to exclude anything they would prefer not to get scrutiny".[116]
5. 4meter4 hatted that part of the larger discussion.

This is probably why we have Wikipedia:Civility as a policy. It's not realistic to expect editors to engage on preferred terms while insulting them, mocking them, and seemingly demanding that they post links to a WPO thread doxxing them.[117] I don't see an issue with 4meter4's conduct, Rjjⁱⁱⁱ (talk) 04:16, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Regarding the 'doxxing' please note that it wasn't there when I asked that evidence being presented against me was backed by the links that are a basic requirement of ANI threads. How is anyone supposed to respond to claims not backed up by evidence? At no point did I dox anyone, and for the record, I stopped posting at WPO over a month ago due to what I consider to be entirely inappropriate behaviour in that regard. Given that WP:CIVIL shouldn't apply to comments regarding non-Wikipedia-contributors over at WPO, I feel free in stating that I consider the 'doxxing' in that thread to be a further example of the sort of fuckwittery that led me to stop participating there. It seems readily apparent to me that certain individuals there are using the site to massage their own egos rather than as a forum for legitimate criticism, and they do so without the slightest regard for consequences. External scrutiny of Wikipedia is an absolute necessity, and no external site is ever obliged to follow Wikipedia rules, but if a forum wants to be taken seriously, it needs to show some evidence of wishing to be taken seriously. AndyTheGrump (talk) 04:44, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

At this point it almost seems like ATG wants sanctions; I can't help but think of why they thought it was a good idea to do this again.wound theology◈ 06:43, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

• ANI is for behavior that is urgent or that is intractable. Whatever one thinks of 4meter4's earlier hatting of a couple subthreads in a discussion at Wikipedia Talk:Did You Know that wasn't something as formal as an RfC or such, I don't see the matter as having been so urgent as to require ANI intervention, since this discussion presumably will last for quite a while yet (multiple days at a minimum; perhaps weeks) and there was plenty of time to let moods cool and to work out what evidence should or shouldn't be included. It also doesn't seem to be or have been all that intractable, with how 4meter4 has by now apparently taken feedback on board by apologizing for misremembering how the recently deceased factor into BLP, creating a section for discussion of disputed evidence, and overtly stating older evidence can be added to the table now created in that talk thread. This ANI thread doesn't seem to indicate much at issue in 4meter4's behavior. Instead it makes apparent that by doing nothing about AndyTheGrump's behavior, administrators and the community have failed to prevent that behavior from continuing. AndyTheGrump's treatment of other users is an intractable behavioral issue. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 07:08, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

Andy seems to have an overall issue with DYK and is throwing everything he can at the wall to see what sticks in an effort to get his way. It's absolutely disruptive and if he won't agree to step away & cool down, the community needs to enforce sanctions to stop the disruption. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 15:49, 16 May 2024 (UTC)

There have been three threads about ATG‘s behavior one of them boomeranged the other one had no action and this is the third one And they were all pretty recent I think the community needs to do something whether it be a warning a block a ban or whatever just something

ATG‘s behavior is unacceptable Maestrofin (talk) 07:12, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

We all know there were better ways for ATG to make a point or start a larger conversation. I am not sure that issues would have received the attention they have if ATG only whispered their concerns but I very much disagree with the way they started the conversation. I believe that ATG was right on BLP related hooks. I feel like I can respond to the substance of ATG's argument now that the attack part of their message is over. I would be against sanctions for ATG at this point. I hope that ATG decides to do some background work at DYK as Kusma has suggested. There have been multiple conversations in the days after that first ATG post at ANI and some are not needed, like this one. Working in the DYK section of the project is difficult and stressful work at times - especially now. Lightburst (talk) 14:10, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

So, kick the can down the road until he does it again? And again? And Again? This is a repeat pattern, it's not going to get better. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 16:37, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Nothing in the way of sanctions to consider so far. Just a general feeling that the discussions started by ATG have been disruptive. I cannot disagree with that. I think DYK has been disrupted enough. The project's volunteers are self-reflecting and involved in multiple discussions about how to move forward. I am not sure what we can do here besides close this discussion as it has run out of steam. If you have a proposal about ATG I am sure editors would consider it. Otherwise we are just loitering here. Lightburst (talk) 17:13, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

I think that we are looking at two overlapping issues involving conduct that the community is unable to resolve. The first is the conduct of User:AndyTheGrump, and the second is conduct and interactions at Did You Know. I am aware that some editors probably think that we are about to resolve these issues, that this thread is about to be the last thread, and that if repeating oneself four times hasn't been persuasive, repeating oneself six times definitely will either persuade or exhaust others.

I am aware that I am often in a minority in thinking that such recurrent issues should be referred by the community to ArbCom, and in thinking that ArbCom should accept such recurrent issues on referral by the community. I am also aware that in modern times, as opposed to the twenty-oughts, ArbCom normally does not accept cases about individual users, which is one reason why there is the concept of unblockables, who are misnamed, because they are actually editors who are often blocked and often unblocked, and are not banned. Well, AndyTheGrump has actually avoided being blocked for a decade, and so maybe really is unblockable. In any case, the community has not resolved the issue of this editor. It also appears that the issues about Andy at DYK may be the tip of the iceberg of issues at DYK.

I will throw in an observation that the arguments offered in the above thread about whether the biographies of living persons policy trumps or is trumped by the civility policy are erroneous. One is a content policy, and the other one is a conduct policy, and both should be and can be non-negotiable. But if a conflict between these policies is perceived, it may be a symptom of something that is wrong. I would suggest that what is wrong is using biographies of inherently controversial living persons to be used in Did You Know, but that is only my opinion. If a case is opened by ArbCom, ArbCom should state as principles that the biographies of living persons policy is non-negotiable, and that civility is the fourth pillar of Wikipedia, because those principles apparently need to be restated.

It is my opinion that the issues of interactions at Did You Know and the conduct of AndyTheGrump are not being resolved by the community and should be addressed by ArbCom. I don't expect consensus on my opinion. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:18, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

It probably isn't in my best interests to comment on whether my issues with civility (Yes, I know I have them, I have acknowledged the fact) merit an ArbCom case. As for whether ArbCom is the appropriate venue for tackling some of the ongoing issues with DYK content, with the flaws in process that creates said content, and perhaps with the behaviour of some contributors there, I suspect most people will suggest that those involved should be given a chance to tackle the problems themselves first. Preferably taking input from the broader community, which has sometimes appeared reluctant in the past to get involved, but clearly ought to. If, however, ArbCom is to become involved, I would strongly argue that it needs to look into it in its entirety, starting from no premise beyond that there have been recurring issues with content of all kinds, and that the appropriate way to proceed is to ask for evidence first, in an open-ended manner, and only then to attempt a resolution. Attempts to frame problems narrowly in advance tend, even if done with good intent, to mask deeper underlying causes, making a permanent resolution impossible. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:43, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

  Agree with devolving to ArbCom. These discussions regarding DYK are getting nowhere. There is lack of clarity over how BLP policy interacts with DYK, if it does at all, with the ambiguous wording: "Hooks that unduly focus on negative aspects of living persons should be avoided" being the biggest problem and interpreted in multiple different ways from users at DYK. One interpretation is that if the negativity is due, then hooks can be negative, and therefore can "override" BLP policy. The other is that negative BLP hooks shouldn't be used, regardless of being due, or otherwise controversial figures shouldn't be featured at DYK at all (with a neutral/positive hook). Clarity needed. CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 18:50, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Comment. Isn't this jumping the gun? I would think the RFC that is currently being constructed would directly address many of the problems being raised here, and would provide for a much wider range of community participation and comment to solve these issues. It would be in the community's best interest to allow for wide community comment and participation rather then to limit the investigation to a small ArbCom panel. I would say we give the RFC a chance to do its work before determining whether going down the ArbCom path is necessary.4meter4 (talk) 19:02, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

There is no appetite for a restriction on ATG based on multiple discussions. Taking this to the next forum after the community votes seems like a forum shop. And about DYK: if you want the editors to get the message and work on tightening up reviews, BLP issues and other DYK related criteria... that is happening right now. RM, I do not think arbcom is the place for this. Nobody is saying what you have said lack of clarity over how BLP policy interacts with DYK, if it does at all. See our DYKCRIT and BLPHOOK guides. There are issues with - as I said in the Tate discussion... "the politics of whomever happens to be editing". One administrator in the discussion rejected the premise of that statement and so did other editors. It felt like politics because as I said in the discussion, Tate is a sort of anti-woke figure. Many editors were announcing their dislike of Tate. An admin said we had to protect children. See for example, Theleekycauldron (TLC) - most would agree they are a DYK expert, but they decided to push very hard for a negative hook as did many other's who called for Tate to be "taken down". At the time I pushed back as did a few other editors, but we were outnumbered, Honestly it was many editors including TLC and most of them are MIA from this discussion and others. I sarcastically asked TLC if they were playing a Jedi Mind Trick when they said a "neutral" hook would actually be unduly positive. It felt very bizarre to be in that discussion and have seasoned editors demanding negative hooks about a blp against our very clear DYK guidelines. The hook that was run, while negative, was Tate's own words and it was written by an Arb member. An admin added it to the nomination so we went with it. Kudos to EpicGenius who wrote a good neutral hook that was not added to the nomination. If you have not read the discussion yet, please do!. It is a must read if you want to see how the sausage is made. Lightburst (talk) 20:40, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

I checked your DYKCRIT and BLPHOOK guides. So negative hooks can be run, based on DYKBLP then right? Why was there even an issue in the first place, can you address that question? CommunityNotesContributor (talk) 00:48, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

• ArbCom would likely only rule on editor conduct. I'd be very surprised if they did anything about the DYK process itself. That kind of change probably has to come from the community, and the RFC that is in the process of forming seems like an ideal place to do it. The only reason to request an ArbCom case now instead of after the RFC would be if we think that there are conduct issues at DYK so severely entrenched that even the RFC would not be able to stop them. I'm not quite sure we're there yet. Pinguinn 🐧 03:12, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

  User:Pinguinn - I agree that ArbCom is unlikely to rule on the DYK process. I have not studied the DYK process, but it is my non-expert opinion that the process is broken partly because of underlying conduct issues. For that reason I am pessimistic that a viable DYK reform RFC will be launched in the next few weeks. I know that other editors are more optimistic than I am, so that efforts at a community solution will continue. If an RFC is assembled and launched, I will be glad to see it run. If the RFC development process bogs down, I will see that as further evidence that ArbCom investigation is needed. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:03, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

• I don't think ARBCOM will want to rule on the questions at hand regarding DYK. How NPOV, BLP, and really short-form entries on the Main Page (the same issues apply to ITN) interact is a community matter. If there are issues in the actions of editors besides ATG, they have not really been fully discussed by the community. CMD (talk) 04:13, 19 May 2024 (UTC)
• Arbcom is the wrong venue; it's for the community to decide what (if anything) to do about DYK. For example, a fundamental question might be how compatible with a serious encyclopedia it is to have click-baity trivia on the front page. Arbcom doesn't decide stuff like that. Bon courage (talk) 07:35, 22 May 2024 (UTC)
  • Agreed. ArbCom has widened the extent of its advisory authority in certain respects over recent time--and to be perfectly honest, not always in ways that I think are entirely right and proper within this community's framework of consensus authority--but something like the issue of the tonal character of DYK and how the space intersects with core content policies is still very much a broader community issue in both scope and subject matter.That said, ArbCom may very well take an interest in users who cannot contribute to DYK (or any space) without calling users idiots and morons and otherwise just acting in a pernicious and disruptive fashion. Those kinds of matters are very much within their remit. And unfortunately, that's probably where things are headed, now that the idea has been floated here. It doesn't take a community resolution to petition ArbCom to look into such a matter and at this juncture, sooner or later someone is going to become frustrated with the community's failure to act on brightline violations of WP:PA, WP:BATTLEGROUND, and WP:TEND and just follow that route. Honestly it's really unfortunate: all of these people who thought they were cutting Andy some slack even as he has popped up repeatedly here over the course of weeks, have unwittingly contributed to a much more negative likely outcome for him. He's going to get burnt ten times worse at ArbCom that the comparably very tame measures that have been previously proposed to try to drive home the point about his more altogether unacceptable conduct towards his fellow editors. But not only did far too many editors fail to tell Andy that his PAs were unaccpetable, but, even more problematically some even endorsed his belief that he is entitled to make such comments if he's convinced he is pushing the right idea or can provide a reason for why he is just too valuable to the project. This was the last thing this editor needed to hear in the circumstances, and by trying to supplant established community consensus as codified in our core behavioural policies with this subjective standard, Andy has now been left exposed in situation where ArbCom comes into the picture, as a body which has both a broad community mandate to enforce our actual policies, and a very meticulous and formal approach to those standards. Basically some of Andy's would-be allies and those uninvolved community members who endorsed kicking the can down the road have possibly traded a short-term block for a TBAN or indef, in the longterm. The whole situation is all very foolish and self-defeating, all around. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 08:03, 23 May 2024 (UTC)
• Comment. The RFC is now open at Wikipedia talk:Did you know#RFC on DYK and BLP policy. All are welcome to participate.4meter4 (talk) 16:59, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

  This solves the procedural issue at DYK, but the second overlapping issue, which relates to user conduct, is still open. Chaotıċ Enby (talk · contribs) 18:11, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

  Discussion on saction for user conduct is closed now. starship.paint (RUN) 08:07, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Bravehm (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

WP:TENDENTIOUS user that keeps attempting to remove/decrease the Mongol aspect of the Hazara (they even somewhat openly admitted it here if you ask me [118]), likely a sock [119], though the SPI might not come with conclusive results again.

1. At Talk:Hazaras, Bravehm blatantly lied that User:KoizumiBS removed sourced information [120], when they literally did the opposite, restoring sourced info (mainly about the Mongol aspect of the Hazara) removed by indeffed User:Jadidjw, whom I still believe to this day was a sock of Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Iampharzad, who has a long history of attempting to remove the Mongol aspects mentioned at Hazaras. Notice that Jadidjw didnt even protest against their indef block despite editing since 2021. They no doubt jumped to another account.
2. After clearly trying to ramp up 500 edits as fast as possible to get access to Hazaras, they immediately started removing sourced information and edit warring [121] [122]
3. Bravehm also blatantly lied here to justify their removal of sourced info about the Mongol aspect [123]
4. Removed sourced info about the Mongol aspect again [124] ("According other sources, the Hazara population speaks Persian with some Mongolian words.")
5. Same here [125]
6. And here [126]
7. And here [127]
8. And here [128]
9. And here [129]

--HistoryofIran (talk) 23:44, 29 April 2024 (UTC)

• I've left a CT notice on the user's talk page, noting that we still haven't heard back from them here yet. I also glanced through contribution history; they did hit 500 pretty quick, however most of the edits appear to have come in good faith insofar as they weren't adding or subtracting one or two syllables consistently to get to 500, however that doesn't per se rule out revoking the EC rights or alternatively page blocking them from the Hazaras article. TomStar81 (Talk) 00:28, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

  Another removal of information about the Mongolian component - diff. KoizumiBS (talk) 10:26, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

  Because Babur never said those words in his Baburnama, but the translator added it and it should not be taken as a source. please see ^[1] Bravehm (talk) 13:22, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

  WP:CIR issues too. You've already been asked several times why the translators don't count as WP:RS, but you've been unable to, even changing your arguments as you please [130]. HistoryofIran (talk) 14:04, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

  Another attempt to minimize the Mongol aspect [131]. HistoryofIran (talk) 16:45, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

  I restored some of those changes that KoizumiBS brought. Hazares also have Turkic and Iranic aspects, why KoizumiBS attempt to minimize the non-Mongol and Turkic aspect of Hazaras.[132] Bravehm (talk) 19:10, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

  There's a valid point buried in this. If a modern translator/editor of period manuscript material is injecting their own interpretation about what the original material probably really meant, then that translator/editor is a primary source for that editorial judgement/claim/change (it's their own personal opinion), and while they may be within RS definitions as a subject-matter expert, their view needs to be attributed to them as a modern scholar, not masqueraded as a statement of the original historical manuscript writer. This sort of thing comes up pretty frequently with regard to modern scholarly intepretation of ancient writings, and more often than not other scholars can also be cited in support of and sometimes against such a modern analytical intepretation.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:48, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

  "HistoryofIran" wrongly and falsely considers my account to belong to "Iampharzad" while I only have this account and Iampharzad's account is not related to me in any way. Bravehm (talk) 09:09, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

  • According to Encyclopaedia of Islam, Hazaragi is a Persian dialect, which is infused with many Turkic and a few Mongolic words or loanwords.
  • According to Encyclopædia Britannica, the Hazara speak an eastern variety of Persian called Hazaragi with many Mongolian and Turkic words.
  • According to Encyclopaedia Iranica, the Hazaras speak a Persian dialect with many Turkic and some Mongolic words.
  • According other sources, the Hazara population speaks Persian with some Mongolian words.

  I only rm the last one due to repetition, incompleteness, and it only mentioned the Mongolian aspect. Bravehm (talk) 16:48, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

This (According other sources, the Hazara population speaks Persian with some Mongolian words.) removal was due to the duplication of info about Hazaragi, and its sources were not reliable as Encyclopaedia of Islam, Encyclopaedia Britannica, and Encyclopaedia Iranica. Bravehm (talk) 16:23, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

My discussion with KoizumiBS on the Talk page of article caused him to correct the erroneous info he had added in the article about the Mongol aspect of the Hazaras. See [133] Bravehm (talk) 18:31, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

@HistoryofIran: [134], [135]

They are not removal but restoration.

I don't know why you have taken a hard position against me and consider my every edit as something bad. As a user, I have the right to edit as you edit. Bravehm (talk) 19:47, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Bravehm once again being dishonest, removing sourced info while saying it is "unsourced" [136]. WP:NOTHERE. --HistoryofIran (talk) 12:56, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

"More unsourced" not "unsourced"

I explained the reason: "No reliable census has been conducted in Afghanistan so far".

And there were no mentions of Aimaqs and Hazaras, which constitute the majority of Ghor residents but the majority of its inhabitants were almost Tajiks plaese see: [137] Bravehm (talk) 15:41, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

It's still not unsourced though... And your explanation is worthless, we follow WP:RS, not your personal opinion - you've already been told this. HistoryofIran (talk) 16:43, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

So "www.biorxiv.org" and "journals.plos.org" are also not WP:RS for this content "the Hazara population speaks Persian with some Mongolian words." Bravehm (talk) 17:41, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

Can an admin please take a look at this case? Bravehm is disrupting more and more articles as we speak [138]. They are WP:TENDENTIOUS and have clear WP:CIR issues, exactly like Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Iampharzad and co., they even all have the same English skills! --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:00, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

This (Iampharzad) account does not and does not belong to me.

User: HistoryofIran has taken a tough stance against me and wants to deny me the right to edit on Wikipedia. He reverses my edits and wants us to reach a consensus on the Talk page of the article, but when I am ready to discuss because of the consensus, he does not give me an answer on the page. Bravehm (talk) 23:46, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

They're still being disruptive as we speak, such as here where they manually reverted KoizumiBS and once again blatantly lied, accusing KoizumiBS of once again removing info but in reality due it themselves to decrease the Mongol aspect [139]. --HistoryofIran (talk) 22:18, 4 May 2024 (UTC)

It was just a restoration of sourced info deleted by KoizumiBS.

This's how I did it (Restored revision 1219713481 by WikiDan61 (talk): Please do not delete previous contents [140]) Bravehm (talk) 12:59, 9 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, everyone can see how you did it... I already linked the diff. And everyone can see your disruption through these diffs. HistoryofIran (talk) 16:54, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

Their SPI has been up for a month, and this report almost a month. Can an admin please look into this case? Countless diffs here of them being disruptive. HistoryofIran (talk) 11:07, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

• I second the request for closure and have removed the non-archive from this report as well. BoldGnome (talk) 06:27, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

  Again, this is not helping. Could you please at least give your opinion on what is missing here? There are countless diffs of this user violating our rules. HistoryofIran (talk) 13:03, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

  A report concisely describing disruptive behaviour evidenced by diffs. Ideally the most objectionable behaviour should be presented first. Your first two links are to something fairly unobjectionable and to an open SPI. This and the continued updates make this look like it's not worth people's time, or at least the amount of time it would take to go through the whole report. BoldGnome (talk) 23:23, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

  This and the continued updates make this look like it's not worth people's time, or at least the amount of time it would take to go through the whole report.

  This is a ridiculous argument. So if the case is too long, just screw it and let the user continue their disruption? It seems you didn't even go through the diffs yourself, and yet you still removed the DNAU, because harassing an admin was apparently not enough [141]. HistoryofIran (talk) 00:07, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

  Look man, you asked for advice and I gave it. That's the reason everyone ignores your reports. If you listen to my advice you are more likely to achieve your desired outcomes. Your last comment is unnecessary (and untrue, if you look at the "harrassment" in question). BoldGnome (talk) 00:23, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

  I meant what you thought about the diffs... but you didn't even bother to look into them, since it's "too long". Yet you still removed the DNAU.. thanks for aiding the disruptive user. A constructive Wikipedian would at least read the report and give their opinion. I hope you realize that Wikipedia would be a nightmare if every lengthy report got ignored. And the length of this report is mainly due to the reported user spamming their nonsense. HistoryofIran (talk) 00:31, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

  The problem is that this is a complex report, and it involves a topic area that most administrators and veteran editors know little about. In addition to the language barrier, most of us lack the necessary cultural context on Central and South Asia topics. That makes it hard to evaluate sources and figure out who is right. Another issue with editors from these parts of the world is that there's a ton of POV pushing and sockpuppetry on all sides. In my SPI work, I see articles in WP:ARBIPA topic areas where multiple sock/UPE farms are fighting and reporting each other as sockpuppets. The way ISPs in this region hand out IP addresses makes it very difficult for Checkuser to produce useful results. SPI is also incredibly backed up, so unfortunately these cases can linger for a while without more volunteers.

  If you want your reports to be more actionable, I can make a few suggestions. Focusing on user conduct issues like incivility, ownership, personal attacks and edit warring are more likely to get results, because the evidence for them is usually pretty clear. A lot of this report looks like content disputes, and we can't really determine who is POV pushing. It might also be better to use WP:AE; the format there is better for demonstrating problems concisely without participants arguing amongst themselves. One other suggestion is to open discussions about the more common sources at places like WP:RSN. As an example, I don't read The Times of India or Telesur and can't evaluate their reliability the same way I can with something I do read. But they've been discussed at RSN, so now we have WP:TOI and WP:TELESUR to tell editors and admins how to handle them. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 22:58, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks The Wordsmith, will keep that mind. It also doesn't help that Bravehm is blatantly lying, this is perhaps the clearest example I can show; I restored sourced info removed by Bravehm [142], restoring +605 bytes. They then not only revert me, but remove more sourced info (-1189 bytes) [143], having the nerve to ask me to go to the talk page, ignoring WP:CONSENSUS and WP:ONUS. This is manipulative. I then revert them again [144], only to get reverted again, but this time they removed even more bytes (-1751), still asking me to go the talk page [145]. HistoryofIran (talk) 23:33, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

  Well, they just violated WP:3RR, so I guess this thread won't needed anymore. Bravehm will be back after their block though, as have all the previous (indeffed) users trying to do the same in that article. --HistoryofIran (talk) 23:44, 24 May 2024 (UTC)

  Boldgnome's and The Wordsmith's advice is pretty good, actually. And it can sometimes be better to close a drawn-out report that is proving too "TL;DR" to attract input and action, and open a new one later that concisely presents the evidence, from most egregious down to supporting-but-not-itself-actionable. It's also not helpful to just keep repeating "is being disruptive" over and over again. If the actions in question were not allegedly disruptive, then they wouldn't be at AN/I in the first place.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  01:54, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks SMcCandlish. And I apologize to User:BoldGnome for my remark, hope we can put it behind us. HistoryofIran (talk) 22:36, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

  No problem at all! BoldGnome (talk) 08:26, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Bafuncius (talk · contribs) is using automated translation tools to add content to Eastern esotericism. They have massively expanded the article with material that essentially duplicates our article on Vajrayana, apparently translated from the Portuguese Wikipedia article Esoterismo no Oriente [pt]. See also this comment, where they assert ownership of the material because they "wrote" the Portuguese article. Two editors oppose the extensive duplicative addition of badly automated translated material, but Bafuncius has reverted both of us, and their rhetoric suggests they will continue to do so. I'd just take it to 3RR, but the major issues is the misuse of automated translation. Skyerise (talk) 03:43, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Proof? Anybody can see in the discussion page that I was always civil, compromising in editing and making the article better, while Skyerise and Flemmish Nietzsche were threatening, not presuming good faith, and impatient. Also, Skyerise offended me here, with perhaps a depreciative tone against my language/nationality: special:diff/1225694928 Bafuncius (talk) 03:56, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

It seems this editor was also involved with the massive autotranslated article on Kardecist spiritism, which is still full of broken citations and other serious issues. I tried to fix it at one point, but gave up. Don't our rules on the use of automated translation require the editor to have enough knowledge of the subject to correct and revise the translations? Also, both Flemmish Nietzsche and I have tried to explain that WP:SUMMARYSTYLE does not allow for the duplication of 60,000 bytes of material which belongs in another article entirely, but Bafuncius (talk · contribs) has failed to respond about or otherwise address that issue. They argue that there may be information in the material which was added to Eastern esotericism that is missing from Vajrayana, but the answer to that is that it should have been added to the most relevant article rather than essentially creating a WP:POVFORK of an existing article. Skyerise (talk) 04:05, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Agree. Bafuncius, you're not really listening to the main point here. In addition to what was said by Skyerise, you can't have a section of an article that is both a POVFORK and is almost the same length of the main article itself. Not all the content from both versions can be included in the Vajrayana article, too, as that would put it over the readability word count. Just because the combined content from two wikis on a subject may have some stuff one doesn't have, doesn't mean that both wikis need all the content from both language articles. We all must adhere to WP:SUMMARYSTYLE. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 04:13, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

The article was created by User:Isaguge, not Bafuncius. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:25, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

They were the one who auto-translated it, but Bafuncius wrote the original content on the Portuguese wikipedia. As the writer of the original article (in the Portuguese version, before it was translated to the English version) from the talk page of Eastern esotericism. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 04:27, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, there seems to be a cross-wiki ownership issue here. Different language Wikipedia editors may make different editorial decisions about how to present material using WP:SUMMARYSTYLE. It's not correct to try to force or coerce English Wikipedia to adopt the monolithic style chosen by Portuguese Wikipedia through edit-warring to keep the same structure as the Portuguese article. Skyerise (talk) 04:36, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that's the point I was making above — not every language version wiki has to present content in the same manner or have the same specific content on a topic. Flemmish Nietzsche (talk) 04:39, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

In no way was I or am I claiming ownership of the article; when I said As the writer of the original article (in the Portuguese version, before it was translated to the English version), my intention was to show that I am knowledgeable about the whole of the article and to intellectually reinforce my argument of why I completely disagreed with the massive removal: thus I stated some specific reasons, and in no moment did I say something like: "this is my article, no one can edit!". Also, it served to show my indignation against that destructive removal: many of the paragraphs are not found duplicated from other articles, and a good proportion of the removed content is also not found in the article Vajrayana. I see now that here in the English article there is indeed a duplication of some main topics: I've created the article in Portuguese, so I was not aware of the situation here. But as can be seen in the talk page, there was no effort in explaining this to me before this report, and most of the replies were unfounded threats that I was edit-warring or inserting bad automatic translations. Bafuncius (talk) 11:59, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

This editor is using whatever means necessary to enter a battleground with editors who enter into the slightest dispute with them.

My first intereaction with BilledMammal was back in November, back then, I reverted a single one of their edits. And the user responded by digging through my editing history, in order to find wherever I may have violated 1RR rules and subsequently opened an arbitration notice against me.

Fast forward to present day, I've reverted another one of BilledMammals edits. And how do they react? By once again, digging through my editing history, searching for possible 1RR violations. Threatening to have me blocked unless I restore their edits.

I don't know if this is behavior is allowed on Wikipedia or not but it's certainly immoral. Ecrusized (talk) 11:17, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

For context, the full November AE report. In addition, prior to that report I had asked them to self-revert; they responded by reverting my requests, which prompted ScottishFinnishRadish to say an assurance from Ecrusized that they're going to engage when issues are brought up … is sufficient here

That doesn’t appear to have happened, with them recently reverting a 1RR concern from a different editor without responding to it, and then today a concern from me about the removal of a disputed tag.

Finally, this feels a bit like forum shopping; this concern has been repeatedly rejected at AE, most recently a week ago. BilledMammal (talk) 11:28, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

"an assurance from Ecrusized that they're going to engage when issues are brought up … is sufficient here"

"That doesn’t appear to have happened, with them recently reverting"

You are so manipulative, I don't even know where to begin. I was talking to you on the article talk page about the issue, which you did not respond to. However, you did find time to leave me a strong worded warning on my talk page, simply for just reverting you once. This was followed by digging through my edits from past weeks in bad faith, presenting incorrect 1RR violations. Ecrusized (talk) 11:35, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

• "This editor is using whatever means necessary to enter a battleground with editors who enter into the slightest dispute with them." Pot, meet kettle. That is pretty much how I would describe construing a note as a block threat and escalating it immediately to ANI. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 11:43, 20 May 2024 (UTC)
• Finally, this feels a bit like forum shopping; this concern has been repeatedly rejected at AE, most recently a week ago (permanent link): I must admit my confusion about this link from BilledMammal (and therefore also about the forumshopping charge leveled against Ecrusized's behavior). The link isn't to a concern about BilledMammal brought to Arbitration Enforcement; it links to an Arbitration Enforcement request that BilledMammal submitted about a different user, Dylanvt.Without commenting one way or another on Ecrusized's behavior and whether boomeranging applies, the concern about some of BilledMammal's edits verging on (or becoming) battlegrounding seems unfortunately plausible. BilledMammal has been previously sanctioned for abuse of process also in this topic area that the admin called using boards for taking out opponents from an area, or for making them give up editing. In April and May, BilledMammal was advised about unproductively bludgeoning discussions ([146] [147]) and received an Arbitration Enforcement block for edit-warring in the Israel–Palestine topic area. At a minimum, I would hope that the present thread reminds BilledMammal to exercise restraint when contributing in contentious topic areas. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 12:06, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

I have indefinitely topic banned Ecrusized from the Arab/Israel conflict, broadly construed. Opening an ANI report against another editor because they brought up your 1RR violation while at the same time having an open report at AE against another editor claiming 1RR violations is bad enough, but combined with the 1RR violations, lack of understanding of 1RR, and personal commentary towards other editors, we're firmly in topic ban territory. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 12:33, 20 May 2024 (UTC)

So we're topic banning editors for bringing concerns to ANI, now? Regardless of your other issues with Ecrusized, the timeline he brings up in his report is absolutely valid. Only deciding to make an issue of week old 1RR violations right after having a conflict with someone might be innocuous on its own, but as Hydrangeans points out, this is clearly part of a pattern. The AE that BM currently has open against a different editor is regarding a single two week old edit. Refusing to even acknowledge this before indef topic banning an editor for coming to ANI is ludicrous. Parabolist (talk) 22:38, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

For bringing concerns to ANI combined with expressing WP:CIR and WP:NPOV concerns, seemingly. I don't wholly follow what brought on the indefinite topic ban. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 22:57, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm guessing it was (1) opening an ANI report against another editor because they brought up your 1RR violation, (2) while at the same time having an open report at AE against another editor claiming 1RR violations, combined with (3) 1RR violations, (4) lack of understanding of 1RR, and (5) personal commentary towards other editors. Levivich (talk) 00:13, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, that's about it. I probably should have explained that earlier. I left this open so community discussion could continue. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:43, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

• I find posting on an editor's user talk about edits that occurred a week beforehand, with an edit warring notice, to be problematic and it is not unsupportive of the OP's claim that BM has gone trolling through their edit history the moment they've come into some sort of conflict. TarnishedPath^talk 00:26, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

• That indeed seems problematic. But you should use trawling rather than trolling to express such purported WP:HOUNDING. Thanks. El_C 12:35, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

  @El C thanks for the correction. TarnishedPath^talk 12:57, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

  Which would y'all rather have:

  1. Editors complain about 1RR vios right away each and every time they happen
  2. Editors never complain about 1RR vios
  3. Editors let 1RRs slide for a while until they get to be too many, and then bring all the recent ones up at once to show it's not a one-time thing

  I prefer # 3. Levivich (talk) 13:21, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

  That notice left by BM didn't indicate that they had any evidence of edit warring which was recent. In fact the diffs they provided were a week old by the time they left that notice. Would you leave a edit warning notice about events that were a week past? I wouldn't. TarnishedPath^talk 14:09, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

  I would much prefer that editors let one another know when there has been a violation of 1RR that can be remedied instead of escalating to WP:AE, which is what I hoped would happen when I proposed the gentlemen's agreement here. Asking for self-reverts is standard practice. There was no threat of a block, just a request for self-revert. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:55, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

  It seems you and others in this discussion are operating under an incomplete understanding of the facts, so let me lay it out:

  • Key background: on 13 May, Ecrusized filed Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement#Galamore, reporting 1RR violations by another editor, with diffs going back to 19 April (which requires "trawling" through others' contribs)
  • Here are Ecrusized's edits to Israel-Hamas war
  • On May 14 they made a bunch of edits to that article, crossing 1RR
  • Among those May 14 edits is this edit, which they self-reverted with edit summary "This probably puts me in 1RR" (true), only to reinstate that same edit a few hours later at 16:43. Their first revert was on 15:49 13 May, which is why they waited until 16:53 14 May to reinstate it. Unfortunately, despite the rather obvious gaming involved in waiting 25hrs to make a revert, because of other intervening reverts, that 16:53 14 May edit was still a 1RR violation.
  • The 14 May edits included adding inline tags and a hidden HTML comment telling other editors not to change content, while also removing an inline tag placed by others (while discussion was still ongoing on the talk page, the most recent talk page message was made only 16 minutes prior)
  • Ecrusized made no edits to the article between 14 May and 20 May
  • On 20 May, they once again removed another editor's disputed tag, while discussion was still ongoing, with the most-recent comment was made only 2 minutes prior and Ecrusized made a comment 2 minutes later, and they restored their hidden comment that had been removed by others
  • On 20 May, BM posted a message on Ecrusized's talk page asking them to self-revert the removal of the disputed tag. No block threat, no incivility, just a please self-revert request.
  • Ecrusized's response was to post this message on BM's user talk page, and blank BM's post on their own user talk page, 10 minutes later
  • Then BM posted a second message bringing up the 1RR violations on 14 May. It was a request to self-revert. There was no block threat, no threat to escalate.
  • Ecrusized's response was to call BM a "wiki warrior", and to accuse BM of "threatening to have me blocked", which never happened. Here is that whole discussion, which took place over the course of 18 minutes, 10:50-11:08
  • At 11:17, Ecrusized opened this ANI

  Now: (1) violating 1RR (on 14 May, at least); (2) not understanding 1RR (as seen from their attempts to game it by waiting until 15 May to re-make a revert); while at the same time complaining about someone else's 1RR violation at AE; and being uncivil towards other editors ("wiki warrior", plus other stuff like "virtually inexperienced editors ... with a heavy Israeli bias" ... I'd add: removing others' inline tagging during discussion, while reinstating their own inline tagging that's been removed; and accusing others of "digging through my editing history" when they're doing the same thing to someone else at AE... this is all classic battleground, disruptive editing. This is one of the most obviously-deserved TBANs I've seen this year.

  I don't really see how anyone can look at this history and think that BM's behavior is problematic, that BM did something wrong by bringing up the 14 May 1RRs, or that this TBAN was issued because Ecrusized brought concerns to ANI. But I can see how someone who didn't look at any of the history might think that, though. Writing this bill of particulars out has been a waste of my time, but it was necessary to correct the misinformation posted here by multiple editors who clearly didn't do the reading before participating in the class discussion. So in the future, let's take more time to research the history of disputes before we opine at noticeboards about appropriate remedies. Levivich (talk) 19:27, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

  virtually inexperienced editors and heavy Israeli bias is strong wording that I don't like, but the recent experience of this very board goes to show that expressing WP:CIR and WP:NPOV concerns in much stronger language has passed muster for many editors, hence my surprise. You're right that one doesn't look at this history (that is to say, a different user's behavioral history) and think that BM's behavior is problematic; rather, one draws such a conclusion by looking at BilledMammal's history. Hydrangeans (she/her | talk | edits) 20:38, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks for that. I do a lot of my monitoring and editing on my phone, so I don't really have a way to keep a diff dossier of disruptive editing patterns, edits, and interactions. I'm glad that laying out the reasoning in the notice was sufficient to figure out the wider context. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:11, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks for that @Levivich. I was already in complete agreement that Ecrusized's TBAN was appropriate. What I was calling into question specifically was leaving an edit warring notice for edits a week after they occurred. From your timeline it looks to me that Ecrusized crossed 1RR on the 20th and it would have been more appropriate for any notice to focus on that. TarnishedPath^talk 00:09, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

  @Levivich: I just like to point out what you said here. Not arguing against my topic ban but...

  On May 14 they made a bunch of edits to that article, crossing 1RR.

  I did not cross 1RR on that date. There is only 1 revert, there are 2 self reverts. revert., self revert. tag added by me earlier, self revert. The only revert made in the 24 hour period. Ecrusized (talk) 09:55, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

  Also, I agree that opening an AE notice against another editors past edits while complaining about another user opening edits against me is hypocritical. Additionally, I would like to point out that I'm not writing these to object to my topic ban. I fully agree with @ScottishFinnishRadish:'s decision, however, I would like to point these out because there seems to be some misunderstanding between other editors participating in this notice.

  I initially opened an incident notice against user Galamore, before the AE notice. This incident notice was regarding perceived gaming the system by Galamore to get ECP access. There, it was suggested (or I accidentally perceived) from ScottishFinnishRadish that this topic belonged to AE. Which prompted me to open the AE notice.

  I'm not exactly sure how AE notices work, and I first participated in them when BilledMammal opened one against me in November, which is linked above in this discussion. Having being inexperienced with the process, I copied the material of the November notice against myself for user Galamore.

  Since I've responded all the point notes by Levivich, I would also like to say that despite being fully aware that words like "virtually inexperienced editors" and "with a heavy Israeli bias" are against Wikipedia guidelines, I said those words to other editors. Which is inexcusable. Ecrusized (talk) 10:33, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

  Self-reverting a 1RR violation doesn't mean 1RR wasn't crossed, at least in my view. Levivich (talk) 12:04, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

  Self-reverting a 1RR violation doesn't mean 1RR wasn't crossed, at least in my view.

  That may be your opinion. That is clearly not the policy of Wikipedia. And the contrary is specifically instructed in the guideline page covering 1RR. WP:3RRNO:

  The following reverts are exempt from the edit-warring policy: Reverting your own actions ("self-reverting"). Ecrusized (talk) 14:30, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

  Thank you for you taking the time to put this together. BilledMammal (talk) 12:07, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

  I guess I'd be more concerned about this if it was on a different article where BilledMammal had never edited. Both of the editors had a history of edits on that article. Nemov (talk) 13:13, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

  TarnishedPath, "a week old" is not very old at all. Some of us do have lives, and problematic patterns sometimes take a while to become evident; sometimes the decision to let something slide has to be rethought because the behavior worsens. If this had been about an incident from many months ago, I could see the concern (though evidence, when it fits a pattern, is often relevant for years, even if a newer incident is expected as the cause of the report). But "it happened more than 6 days ago so it has magically become unactionable" is not a WP principle.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  03:40, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

91.106.57.222 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) is the current IP used by an editor who has, for years, consistently updated the dates on maintenance templates across many articles, while ignoring requests to stop and not responding to any talk page message. Although currently based in Iraq they have previously used IPs in Turkey in 2022 and 2023. The history of Deployment of COVID-19 vaccines shows many, many updates to the date in the sentence "As of [date], [number] COVID-19 vaccine doses have been administered worldwide" without changing the number of doses administered (as well as changing the date in the "Use dmy dates" template)

• May 20, 2024
• May 7, 2024
• January 3, 2024 (second change on this date)
• December 4, 2023
• November 9, 2023
• October 16, 2023
• September 24, 2023
• April 16, 2023 (second change on this date)
• January 11, 2023
• December 6, 2022
• November 21, 2022
• November 7, 2022
• October 2, 2022
• September 9, 2022
• April 4, 2022 (second change on this date)
• March 2, 2022
• March 1, 2022
• February 27, 2022
• February 17, 2022
• February 9, 2022
• January 25, 2022
• January 19, 2022
• January 11, 2022
• January 2, 2022
• December 16, 2021

I decided to stop once I reached 2021. They also make the same maintenance date chang edits to articles, generally relating to ongoing conflicts in the Middle East but also ongoing conflicts elsewhere, which connects the Turkish and Iraq edits to the same editor (see for example 81.214.107.17 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) and 95.12.115.60 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) for the Turkish IPs and 91.106.57.49 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) and 91.106.54.35 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) for the Iraqs IPs, as well the as current IP at the top of this thread).

The history of Sudanese civil war (2023–present) shows their approach on conflict articles. As well as incorrectly updating any maintenance templates, they constantly update map captions to the current date even when the corresponding image hasn't been updated (you'd think instead of making pop songs mimicing famous artists, someone could make AI do live updates for us)

• May 25, 2024
• May 20, 2024
• January 9, 2024

Similarly at Darfur campaign.

• April 11, 2024
• December 15, 2023

Same behaviour on many other conflict related articles, no need to hammer the point home any more I hope. As well as that, they also incorrectly update dates on other maintenance templates such as "one source", "More citations needed", "Original research" and "Expand", "very long" and many more, I hope I've already provided enough.

@Discospinster: asked them at User talk:91.106.57.8 in December 2023 to stop updating dates on maintenance templates, as have I at User talk:91.106.61.248 (16 April 2024), User talk:91.106.58.243 (28 April 2024) and User talk:91.106.57.222 (repeated posts in May 2024). They don't communicate in any way. A range block on 91.106.56.0/21 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · block user · block log) would appear to have zero collateral damage, so if deemed necessary perhaps this could be enacted please? Kathleen's bike (talk) 15:17, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

these two accounts are making disruptive edits of the page for pullen adding info about a fictional country called "pullenisti". both of these accounts also have somewhat similar names.

links to users:
user:CheezItsPullens
user:Cheeseitsspecial

Gaismagorm (talk)

Clear sockpuppetry; blocked both as vandalism only accounts. Ivanvector (^Talk/_Edits) 15:08, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

alright thanks! glad that's dealt with! Gaismagorm (talk) Gaismagorm (talk) 17:06, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

49.228.178.54 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)

112.185.217.122 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)

119.203.171.151 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)

221.154.111.66 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)

61.46.178.196 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)

121.165.52.228 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)

176.226.233.66 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)

220.121.78.226 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)

153.206.208.207 (talk • contribs • deleted contribs • blacklist hits • AbuseLog • what links to user page • COIBot • Spamcheck • count • block log • x-wiki • Edit filter search • WHOIS • RDNS • tracert • robtex.com • StopForumSpam • Google • AboutUs • Project HoneyPot)

Since the 23rd of May, those IPs have reverted my edits and talk page without any explanations. It seems that those IPs are 'stalking' and trying to disrupt my edits to harass me. 117.53.77.84 (talk) 15:16, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

All of the listed IPs are VPN proxies. I've blocked all that have edited today or yesterday (a couple haven't edited since May 23). That said, I have no idea what's going on, i.e., the merits of 117.'s edits, in other words should they be reverted in the first instance. Given the number of proxies, I would expect this would continue.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:36, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

The usual response to persistent disruptive behavior by a range of random VPN addresses would be semiprotection. But if the disruption is happening on an IP editor's talk page, that would be counterproductive. I guess the only advice is: why not make a login? —David Eppstein (talk) 18:27, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

An editor who has recently been unblocked for ARBPIA after a month and who has been flagged for WP:CIR has resumed making the same WP:CIR violations and inserting poorly-written content into certain articles, the most terrible of which is this [148] on Timeline of Isfahan. I have just bluntly warned the user, but given that they have had a record on ANI, can a third case be filed directly against them? Withholding full name of offender until I get clarification on this. Borgenland (talk) 16:45, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't see why not if their edits outwardly demonstrate lack of competence. The Kip ^(contribs) 19:59, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

In that case, can I rename this section or do I have to file a separate section for this? Borgenland (talk) 06:18, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Might as well just rename the section, since this section doesn't serve a purpose otherwise, and everyone can tell by the diff who the user is that you have in mind anyway, so this pseudo-secrecy is pointless. However, the diff provided above shows this user, Baratiiman, correcting and otherwise improving their own earlier claim that 60 Baha'i women were "persecuted" (somewhere unspecified), with a revision that agrees with the cited source that it was 10 women, and in Iran. (While it would have been nice if Baratiiman had gotten the information correct in the first edit instead of the second, no one is perfect. Baratiiman should also have replaced the PoV-laden "persecuted" with the "prosecuted" used by the original source, or rather as translated from the orignal source which is not in English; "prosecuted" and "persecuted" are radically different things despite the spelling similarity. And Baratiiman had no reason to write "Iranian Islamic state government" when "Iranian government" or even just "Iran" will do. But ANI is not a venue for punishing people for insufficiently beautiful prose.)  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:02, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

PS: Borgenland, on multiple pages I see you inserting broken link code in the form [[https://en.wikipedia.org/...]] That's the format for internal wikilinks like [[Mongolia]]. The format for full-URL links is [https://en.wikipedia.org/...] with single square-bracketing. So, I'm not sure you're in a position to make "competence"-related criticisms. If anything is to be actionable here, you need to demonstrate an actual pattern of policy failures on the part of Baratiiman, not vague claims of "incompetence".  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:09, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

PPS: this is also a bit concerning, being aggressive and menacing: If I catch you making such WP:CIR edits again I'm afraid I will have to file an ANI against you for a third time. It's not Borgenland's or anyone else's job to try to "catch" people doing things they don't like and make threats to gin up WP:DRAMAboard trouble as a punitive measure to try to get what they want.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:14, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

I appreciate pointing out that I do get confused sometimes in coding. But it does not absolve them from the fact that the user I am referring to has had a edit history of incoherent editing, misinterpreting and exaggerating statements and has not once made any response or commitment to address this behavior, even when they were still being addressed in a civil manner. This was also raised by other editors in a previous archived report involving them last month. And now that you are asking for proof, I might as well build up again the case using the archive and their most recent cases within the day. Borgenland (talk) 05:44, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Since their unblocking these have been some of their most problematic edits:

• [149] a restoration of incomprehensible and WP:NOTNEWS content they inserted in Timeline of Isfahan
• [150] a confusing holiday count in Economy of Iran
• [151] inserting references to unidentified presidents in 2024 Varzaqan helicopter crash.

Borgenland (talk) 06:19, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

This was the recent ANI that was filed against them in April, during which issues I had raised were also seconded by other editors. Although in the end they were blocked for edit warring. [152]. Borgenland (talk) 06:35, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

There is no selection criteria for https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Stand-alone_lists#Selection_criteria Baratiiman (talk) 16:41, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

There may be none, but the way in which such info was written left doubts over the veracity of such events. Furthermore for example, is it really due to an event for 2023 to include something that would happen in six years, as you stated in desertification? Borgenland (talk) 16:45, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

This is an article-talk-page or user-talk-page discussion, not an AN/I matter.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:25, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

To catch up a bit: Yes, there historically have been some issues with this editor, Borgenland's original diff here did not in any way add to that problematic history, but shows the editor in question improving their own edit, with a total result that looks reasonable (if not perfect). So, this AN/I thread doesn't seem to have a point; there's not a new "incident" of an actionable nature here. To go over the new diffs in the order presented above: 1) Nothing "incomprehensible" about any of it. A few entries are in telegraphic writing ("headlinese") or not-quite-right English and should be improved. A few entries also seem to make use of non-Latin script, and should be improved with Latin-alphabet transliterations of the names in question. And some entries might be too trivial/indiscriminate to warrant inclusion (and in the "desertification" instance, there's a question of relevance and perhaps WP:NOT#CRYSTAL). These are all matters of just improving the material, the third sort of concern perhaps after some article or user talk-page discussion. Whether all the sources cited are reliable enough could be a question (that I can't answer; I'm unfamilar with them and don't know the language). 2) I don't know what "a confusing holiday count" is supposed to mean. What is a "holiday count"? The material added (with sources) is in not-quite-right English again, but is easy enough to parse after looking at the sources, and should read something like the following (for better linguistic sense, to better match the sources, and for more clarity to non-Iranians): "In 2024, Iran amended Article 87 of the Civil Service Management Law to reduce the workweek of government employees to 40 hours per week (after previously reducing it from 44 to 42.5 hours). This was done by extending, for that set of workers, the Iranian weekend to include Saturday as well as the traditional Thursday and Friday." We like our non-native-English-speaker contributors to try a little harder to get the English grammar correct, but we're unlikely to block them from editing for a few simple syntax errors or for not being maximally helpful to readers who are not steeped in their culture. 3) So just fix it. The source is clear and short: "The three [living] former presidents of Iran, Mohammad Khatami, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Hassan Rouhani". Looking at our article, I see someone has already patched up that sentence, so there is no issue to resolve. In short, it seems to me that Borgenland would like there to a principle by which WP banned editors who mean well and add some good material but who also sometimes create typographic-cleanup and clarity-improvement work for other editors to do after them. I'm unaware of any such block rationale, and we would not do well to create one. It's far more practical, on multiple levels, to coach and coax an inexperienced editor into becoming a better encyclopedic writer than to try to banish them for not already being one.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:25, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

For the record, I was the one who patched up number 3 but because I found an English-language source that can verify whatever claims they made. The fact is, they had been coached and coaxed several times to improve their writing to the extent that you had seen, to little avail. How far should their behavior be tolerated without compromising the encyclopedic quality of articles in this project and how long should it be for them to learn how to be responsible in providing factual and comprehensible information?. Borgenland (talk) 20:52, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

I hate to haul another user up here but, I feel that, at this point, it has become a necessity. This user routinely inserts WP:PUFF wording into articles [153] , and fails to comply with WP:NPOV [154] despite several warnings [155], he has continued to do so [156]. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Allan Nonymous (talk • contribs) 15:58, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

I looked through their edit history. I see no edit summaries or any replies in chats. Making me think this is a WP:NOTHERE user.CycoMa1 (talk) 18:03, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

They have repeatedly blanked their talk page, so they have seen those previous messages. Seems like a WP:RADAR strategy. Just Step Sideways ^{from this world ..... today} 18:34, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

I do have to say I don't feel like I'm seeing a "smoking gun" in any of these diffs though. Lack of communication is a real issue, but I'm not sure a good case has been made that their edits are all that problematic. I'm willing to be convinced but at the moment I'm not seeing it. Just Step Sideways ^{from this world ..... today} 18:39, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

I guess this is a new user who doesn’t understand the goal of Wikipedia. But still I do think they might need some kind of block.CycoMa1 (talk) 19:00, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

I know for a fact users can get blocked for being non-communicative. Just don’t remember the page name for that policy.CycoMa1 (talk) 19:04, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

That would either be WP:ENGAGE or WP:RADAR Supreme_Bananas (talk) 19:45, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. This is clearly a case of WP:NOTHERE. Amigao (talk) 19:42, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Agreed, so I'm blocking. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 21:11, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

IP has continued adding unsourced material to articles after receiving a final warning. Diffs:

• Special:Diff/1225799736
• Special:Diff/1225799864
• Special:Diff/1225800135
• Special:Diff/1225800257

voorts (talk/contributions) 20:15, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Note they appear to be making stuff up [157] same film as Diff1 above yet a different runtime? Lavalizard101 (talk) 20:43, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) This calls for a block. Literally every single one of their edits have been reverted for the same reasons. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1^{(The Garage)} 20:44, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Most likely LTA IPs. This is very common on film articles. They are reverting back the reverts as I type this. Mike Allen 20:46, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Ok, now this IP is spamming. PLEASE, some admin step in. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1^{(The Garage)} 20:54, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

I've reported the IP to WP:AIV as this is obvious vandalism now. Lavalizard101 (talk) 21:09, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. voorts (talk/contributions) 21:09, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Good. I'm tired of having to refresh the contribs of the IP every 5 seconds to check for vandalism. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1^{(The Garage)} 21:10, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Now they've been blocked for 31 hours by Izno for vandalism. The 🏎 Corvette 🏍 ZR1^{(The Garage)} 21:16, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

This IP has been 'creating' a fair amount of human name pages by inserting a new page inside of existing pages by similar names. The pages are all good, to be clear – the only issue is that they are going in the completely wrong place. They have been asked to use drafts many times, but given that their address is so variable I really have absolutely no idea that they've even seen those messages. I don't want to see them gone, their work is useful, but it is currently creating extra work for others. Perhaps a block with a pointer to a detailed explanation of what they should be doing instead, and an unblock after they simply confirm they understand, would be able to get their attention. They've been temporarily blocked before for this exact thing but the block message was less than useful so they just kept doing what they've been doing after it expired. Tollens (talk) 06:33, 23 May 2024 (UTC)

Well, if they keep bouncing around to different IPs, it seems they're also unlikely to notice that one has been blocked. I wonder if they are at least within a blockable range that wouldn't clobber a bunch of other, unrelated, users.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:23, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, they seem to be entirely within the /64 range I've linked, and it doesn't look like anybody else is. Tollens (talk) 06:11, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

In that case I would support your idea as perhaps the only way to get their attention clearly and long enough to get the point across, and see if they absorb it and do better after actually responding to the block with an indication that they understand and will edit in a more practical manner. We should be clear that we're not angry with them or don't value the content they're adding, just that it needs to be done properly.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  05:36, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

The /64 earned a block a couple weeks ago. I've made it a week this time and left a specific note on their talk page. Izno (talk) 21:24, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

IP editor, if you are reading this, you can create an article by adding Draft: in front of the title you want (like Draft:Article name) and add {{subst:submit}} at the very top when you're ready to publish it. Tollens (talk) 21:53, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Additionally, you can likely be unblocked at any time assuming you've seen all this and understand - just add {{unblock|reason=Put a brief statement that you understand what you should do here ~~~~}} on your talk page, which is at this link. If you don't understand, you can ask on that page as well (include the text {{ping|Tollens}} in your message to alert me of it). Tollens (talk) 22:02, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Wiki wikied (talk · contribs) is repeatedly reverting one specific comment made by Island92 (talk · contribs) at Talk:2024 Formula One World Championship:

1. Special:Diff/1225346948
2. Special:Diff/1225348091
3. Special:Diff/1225636335
4. Special:Diff/1225644502
5. Special:Diff/1225645092
6. Special:Diff/1225645797

In Special:Diff/1225348091 they wrote "Deleted due to assumed pronoun usage" as a rational.

I explained in great length that this was inappropriate when I reverted instance number 3, and I also explained what i thought would be the appropriate steps (Special:Diff/1225642015). I also left a similar explanation at their talk page along with {{uw-tpv1}} (Special:Diff/1225644072). However, Wiki wikied keeps deleting these comments (I know this is their right) and seemingly ignoring them. I most recently escalted to {{uw-tpv3}} (Special:Diff/1225645397). Howrever, edit number 6 above came about 6 minutes after I posted that notice (and Wiki wikied is aware of that notice, because hethey deleted it). Please can an editor of higher standing assist in this where I have failed. Thanks. SSSB (talk) 20:54, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

If someone keeps reverting things because they don't like having their pronouns assumed, perhaps the solution is to stop assuming their pronouns? (Underlining added, not in original post.) Shirt58 (talk) 🦘 01:00, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't disagree but the user needs to realise that "he" can be used to describe someone whose gender is unspecified ([158]) and people make mistakes - like above where auto-correct appears to have corrected a typoed "they" into "he". They can't just delete every comment where the incorrect pronoun is used. SSSB (talk) 03:02, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

That's a ridiculous response. Using "their" is clearly a neutral pronoun and is not an "assumption", aside from Wiki wikied refusing to clarify or engage in any way to constructively resolve the disagreement (which could have been rather straightforward). "If someone keeps reverting things because they don't like having their pronouns assumed", then that's petty, childish, and most importantly disruptive. We don't accept disruption because someone "doesn't like" the situation. That's not how we resolve issues and disagreements and "not liking" a simple error by Island92 (who I believe does not speak English as a first language) does not excuse or justify this disruptive behaviour. In fact, this has been the only thing they have engaged with on-wiki since April – a pretty strong indication that they're WP:NOTHERE to do anything constructive at all. 5225_C (talk • contributions) 03:08, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Fairly sure Shirt58 is referring to the original comment which did use "he" throughout. I actually agree with Shirt58 regardless of he and she sometimes being used when gender is unspecified, it's increasing controversial and so should be avoided and especially avoided if someone objects. However, I don't think removing the comment was an acceptable solution and getting into an edit war over it even less. That said, if Island92 was one of those involved in the revert war, the immediate solution was for them to simply modify their comments. Editors could still discuss with Wiki wikied somewhere about better ways to handle such objections, but it benefits no one to insist in the right to call someone "he" when they've clearly objected no matter how poor their objection may be. But it doesn't look like Island92 was involved which complicates things since I'm unconvinced another editor should be editing Island92's comments. Nil Einne (talk) 03:21, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

No, SSSB's original post here used "they" and "their" throughout (diff). Island92 has not been involved since posting the original comment, which was about a seperate disagreement that has since been resolved. The message in question was posted on 21 April, and Wiki wikied let it stand without any engagement until 23 May. Nobody is trying to establish a right to call Wiki wikied by "he", the goal is here is to escalate the disagreement to prevent an editor from continuing to be deliberately disruptive. 5225_C (talk • contributions) 03:28, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes but that has nothing to do with what I said which is that Shirt58 is saying the comment being warred over was a problem, not that SSSB's comment is a problem. There is nothing in Shirts58's comment to suggest they were objecting to pronoun usage here. Nil Einne (talk) 05:44, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

You mean adding underlining to SSSB's post isn't such a suggestion? 5225_C (talk • contributions) 05:50, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

I thought Shirt58 was suggesting that the solution was for Island92 to use they rather than he. However it seems their underlining was probably an emphasis that SSSB should have stuck with they rather than using he once, now acknowledged and due to a typo. Regardless, my main point remains. It seems clear Shirt58 wasn't objecting to the use of their etc. They were supporting it and emphasising all editors need to stick with it and not use he even once. Nil Einne (talk) 05:55, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

If that's the case then I have no problem with Shirt58's comment, I agree it's always best practice to use a neutral pronoun until certain of what is appropriate. 06:06, 26 May 2024 (UTC)— Preceding unsigned comment added by 5225C (talk • contribs) ^<diff>

I used "he" once (where I struck it out). Everother instance used they or their some of which were later underlined by Shirt58. This was not an assumption, it was a typo being auto-corrected. My assumption right now would be to use "she" (balance of propabilites, only a small minority use pronouns of "they/them"). I agree with everything else you're saying - I tried to explain to Wiki wikied that if they objected to the pronouns someone used to describe them to take it up with the offending editor (and by all means consider it a personal attack if they refuse to acknowlegde your obejction to pronoun usage). But however controversial it may be, "he" is and can be used where gender is unspecified, and people do still make mistakes where gender is specified. People make typos, and in 6 months I may forget Wiki wikied's pronouns and default to "he" in a case of unspecified gender (linguistically acceptable even if contorversial). But to flat-out remove the comment is not appropriate or helpful and if we can't edit comments to correct grammar we shouldn't correct them for pronouns either? SSSB (talk) 03:50, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

If you can't remember preferred pronouns I strongly suggest you stop using he by default. If you refer to Wiki wikied ever again in a situation where it is not a typo, I'd support an indefinite block of you. And if you made a typo which resulted in incorrect pronoun usage, then even more reason for Shirt58 to object. The correct response is to apologise for your offensive typo and not claim it doesn't matter because it was simply a typo. The fact you did not set out to offend, doesn't change the offence caused by your actions. As I said below, this whole war is made even more silly by the fact the comment itself was a fairly pointless comment which doesn't even belong on the article talk page. So regardless of the poor way Wiki wikied handled this, I think it's a reasonable question to ask whether there's any real advantage to bringing this to ANI, and then make an offensive typo while doing do. Nil Einne (talk) 05:52, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

If you refer to Wiki wikied ever again in a situation where it is not a typo, I'd support an indefinite block of you. That's an entirely unwarranted response and I cannot think of any administrator that would seriously consider that an appropriate course of action. But I think it's clear to everyone here that using a neutral pronoun is best practice, that's not why we're here or what the core issue is. 5225_C (talk • contributions) 06:06, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

I find that Template:They is useful in these cases. Hatman31 (he/him · talk · contribs) 19:30, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Just a note that I had warned with {{uw-tpv1}} here for edit #1 (which had no edit summary about pronoun use) before those three warnings, so there were technically four warnings. ObserveOwl (chit-chat • my doings) 01:53, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Putting aside the pronoun issue, IMO the dispute is fairly silly since the actual comment being warred over doesn't really belong to the talk page. If Island92 wants to warn another editor they're free to do so themselves. But they should be doing so on the editor's talk page not the article talk page. Then the editor warned would be free to remove the comment without issue. The talk page should be used for discussing the changes rather than warning others. I still don't think Wiki wikied should have removed it like that especially without a decent explanation, but the fact remains if we step back the whole dispute is IMO very silly. Nil Einne (talk) 05:40, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree, it's petty and unproductive. However, Wiki wikied is still acting disruptively, and their editing activity since April (which has only been reverting the comment in question and removing warnings from their own talk page) suggests that this disruption could actually be deliberate. A warning that this disruption will not be tolerated, and that a block may follow if their activity continues to be purely disruptive in nature, is an appropriate response to resolve this. 5225_C (talk • contributions) 05:50, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Then give such a warning. My point is that ultimately anyone involved was always free to do so so there's no reason this needs to be at ANI. ANI is for serious issues not those that can be resolved by someone recognising that even if the reasoning was poor, in the end there is no harm to removing that comment since it's something that simply didn't belong on the talk page so they could simply warn everyone who needed it not to repeat that shit again. Nil Einne (talk) 06:00, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

We're at ANI because Wiki wikied has ignored all warnings (consult their talk page's history) and is continuing to disrupt. This may warrant administrator intervention to deter further disruption. 06:06, 26 May 2024 (UTC)— Preceding unsigned comment added by 5225C (talk • contribs) ^<diff>

I ran out of time to post this but if an admin wants to block Wiki wikied I see no harm in that. However I've tried to resolve the immediate issue by removing the misplaced warning and explained to Island92 why I did so and what to do with warnings in the future and also asked them not to refer to Wiki wikied as "he". I've also warned Wiki wikied against doing such removals again emphasising that even if they've asked an editor not to do that the correctly solution is to report it rather than remove it. Nil Einne (talk) 07:06, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your initiative Nil Einne – I see Wiki wikied has removed your warning so they have seen it, hopefully they heed that advice and there won't be any further disruptive behaviour. 5225_C (talk • contributions) 07:13, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

I've already said quite a lot so I'll leave probably one final comment. First I'll acknowledge I missed that the comment being removed was over a month old, I had thought it was quite recent. Even so, this only makes a minor change to my thinking.

I feel we and I'm definitely including myself in that, have a tendency to miss the forest from the trees in some disputes, and this is IMO one such example. As I've said, being generous the comment was at best a misplaced warning to a specific editor which would belong on the editor's talk page and not the article talk page.

IMO, it wasn't even one of those warnings that was a combination of warning plus possible starting point for discussion over some dispute. At least to me as an uninvolved editor, it's very difficult to parse from that comment why Island92 objects to the change and feels it's not an improvement other than something about "see history".

Assuming the history most likely refers to the article, I had a look and found comments like "We've already discussed this with no consensus to change" and "We've just discussed this". But this is by itself fairly useless as an explanation for the problems with the change, what we actually need is the older discussion.

The older discussion is I guess the discussion Grands Prix Results one which is at this time right above that comment[159]. So all that comment actual does is direct us through a very roundabout way to see the discussion which is now right above that comment!

In other words, it's fairly useless for any other editor and I see no purpose to keep it on the article talk page. I said "being generous" earlier since it wasn't even actually a warning. Instead it was asking some other unnamed party to warn the editor. If I had to guess, Island92 is an inexperienced editor and incorrectly thought and maybe still thinks there are mods responsible for monitoring behaviour and warnings editors which of course isn't how the English wikipedia works. So in some ways the comment was even more pointless.

Yes it's very common that editors have such confusion and misplace warnings, and a lot of the time we just let it be. But it's also very common we collapse, in-place archive, immediately archive to a subpage or simply remove such comments. In this particular case, it seems that the comment was causing offence, maybe even distress to the editor concerned. That being the case, there seems to be even more reason to just remove the comment rather than keeping it up.

While this was not an editor's talk page, the same principle actually applies. In so much as it was intended as a warning to a specific editor, we can assume that editor has already read the warning otherwise they wouldn't be removing it. So even more reason why it was simpler just to let the removal stand.

Yes the stated reason for removal might have been flawed, but it was simple to annotate the edit summary or alternative for some editor seeing the edit war to take over the removal and give a better explanation for why they were removing it like I did. They can approach the editors concerned and explain the situation as I did.

As an alternative, perhaps Wiki wikied would have been fine with the comment being archived to a subpage. Although frankly, removing pointless comments on talk pages which haven't yet been archived rather than archiving them, even after a long time isn't uncommon either.

Let's also consider the alterntive which is that someone needs to ask Island92 to change their comment, and Island92 need to go an modify a comment which as I now realise was over a month old and which did not belong on the that talk page anyway, and where the actual issue seems to be dead. (At least so far Wiki wikied hasn't returning to trying to change to their preferred version of the table.)

So I guess what I'm reminding editors is always consider taking a step back in disputes like this and rather than looking at issues of simple black and white, 'you removed the comment for a unjustified reason so I'll revert you' and when you keep on insisting on removal, the bring you to ANI to get you blocked probably also resulting in a bunch of editors needing to look into the dispute. While all these actions might be technically justified, I think we (and again definitely including myself in that) should never forget to look at the wider picture and ask ourselves, is there actually some way I can resolve that without all this? And also, even if an editor might not have left a good explanation in wikipedia terms, for their change but is there actually a good reason for their change nevertheless? (I.E. Remember to always consider the change rather than just the explanation.)

Nil Einne (talk) 09:45, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

• Nil Einne's wise advice both here and at at User talk:Wiki wikied appear to have been ignored by the user. They haven't edited recently. Instead of a WP:PARBLOCK from Talk:2024 Formula One World Championship, perhaps I could create an interesting but wildly inaccurate note about how the "singular they" entered the English language when the Vikings established an Australian Football League expansion team in Northeast England on their talkpage? Shirt58 (talk) 🦘 10:56, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

49.32.235.247 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), 2409:4040:D1D:53D9:0:0:C9CB:2315 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and 2409:4040:6E9A:45A8:0:0:C94B:6401 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) have repeatedly added unsourced content to the Kana and Small Kana Extension articles: [182] [183] [184] [185] [186] [187] [188] [189] are just a few of the edits those IPs have done. You can see the history of the articles for more examples. Communicating with this person is impossible because they never use talk pages. I got the two articles protected at RfPP and this user just waited the protection out and kept doing the same edits. Nickps (talk) 10:08, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

(Comment) All of the edits seems to have been reverted. ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 01:03, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

The editor is still active. Nickps (talk) 11:27, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

See also [190] [191] [192]. Nickps (talk) 12:30, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I've now semiprotected Kana, Small Kana Extension and Katakana for two months each. If you see the problem spreading to more articles consider reporting at WP:AIV. EdJohnston (talk) 18:10, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

It will just be a game of whack-a-mole. This seems to be a systematic targeting of Unicode block and chart articles using various IPs. In the past month I've revert vandalism for the following articles/templates: Alchemical Symbols (Unicode block), Cyrillic script in Unicode, Dogra (Unicode block), Dogri script, Enclosed Alphanumeric Supplement, Enclosed Ideographic Supplement, Ethiopic Extended-A, Ethiopic Extended-B, Grantha (Unicode block), Khojki (Unicode block), Latin Extended-F, Old Uyghur (Unicode block), Supplemental Symbols and Pictographs, Symbols and Pictographs Extended-A, Template:Unicode chart Alchemical Symbols, Template:Unicode chart Dogra, Template:Unicode chart Enclosed Alphanumeric Supplement, Template:Unicode chart Enclosed CJK Letters and Months, Template:Unicode chart Enclosed Ideographic Supplement, Template:Unicode chart Grantha, Template:Unicode chart Kana Supplement, Template:Unicode chart Latin Extended-D, Template:Unicode chart Small Kana Extension, Template:Unicode chart Symbols and Pictographs Extended-A, and Template:Unicode chart Symbols for Legacy Computing. DRMcCreedy (talk) 15:56, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

49.32.235.247 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), 2409:4040:D1D:53D9:0:0:C9CB:2315 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and 2409:4040:6E9A:45A8:0:0:C94B:6401 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) have repeatedly added unsourced content to the Kana and Small Kana Extension articles: [215] [216] [217] [218] [219] [220] [221] [222] are just a few of the edits those IPs have done. You can see the history of the articles for more examples. Communicating with this person is impossible because they never use talk pages. I got the two articles protected at RfPP and this user just waited the protection out and kept doing the same edits. Nickps (talk) 10:08, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

(Comment) All of the edits seems to have been reverted. ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 01:03, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

The editor is still active. Nickps (talk) 11:27, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

See also [223] [224] [225]. Nickps (talk) 12:30, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I've now semiprotected Kana, Small Kana Extension and Katakana for two months each. If you see the problem spreading to more articles consider reporting at WP:AIV. EdJohnston (talk) 18:10, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

The editor @Zo world: has been around for a year or so, and only edits in relation to tribes in the Indian state of Nagaland; particularly, anything relating to the Kuki people. I initially spotted this when they kept inflating the number of speakers at Thadou language ([226] [227] [228] [229] [230] [231] [232] [233]) over a period of months, despite being reverted and asked to provide sources numerous times by various different editors (as seen in the page history: [234]), but their contribution history reveals a consistent pattern of adding unsourced claims, inflating the prominence of some tribes over others, or removing sourced claims ([235] [236] [237] [238] - there are many, many other examples like this in their contribution history). They've been asked to stop numerous times on their talkpage by several editors, but haven't responded to any of them, so I've had no choice but to report them here. As a side point, they've also started marking all of their edits as minor since around June 2023, which I suspect is an attempt to hide what they're doing from other users. Theknightwho (talk) 18:43, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

While their "minor edits" deception and their manipulation of content are reprehensible, their complete failure to communicate shows they have no desire to collaborate and are therefore WP:NOTHERE. Block needed. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 19:05, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I agree this is another WP:NOTHERE user. Block them.CycoMa1 (talk) 23:43, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

• I agree that blocking is the only option left. Abhishek0831996 (talk) 02:53, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

I have indefinitely blocked Xo world for for persistently adding unsourced or poorly sourced content. Edit summaries like and for reference please check latest news that highlights myanmar conflict, shows that the editor has a profound misunderstanding of Wikipedia's core content policy of Verifiability. It is inappropriate for Xo world to instruct other editors to go searching for reliable sources. Instead, it is their obligation to find those sources, format them properly as references, and add them to the articles. Cullen328 (talk) 03:16, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

User:Dalremnei joined in 2021 but had no edits until 2023, and then only produced a handful of edits outside their own page and CSS. Today, they show up on Talk:September 11 attacks to dispute the inclusion of "Islamist" in the article, something supported by multiple reliable sources over the years.

When Dalremnei failed to get support for removing this term, they began repeatedly claiming this was due to established editors "ideologically" defending the status quo, then accused editors of bias and {bigotry.

Bigots love to hide behind the justification of just being "logical" and "looking at the facts" and I should be able to call that out. [239]

Well, I knew this would happen as soon as someone tried to drag this issue into the talk page. You win, established editors. You get to comfortably ignore opposing views because the mainstream media affirms all of yours. I tried to make a compromise edit that addressed this edit but oh, that's not good enough... wiki editors demand absolute ideological compliance. [240]

But it seems impossible to get this edit done in a way that satisfies "the rules". Every time I reverted the page it was reverted back, and then I was accused of edit-warring. If you aren't part of the elite editor clique your views mean nothing. [241]

Your point just seems to be "well the mainstream media agrees with our bias so it's actually neutral to perpetuate it". I'm sure you can understand why I strongly disagree with that. [242]

Ah, the "show me the evidence" game, where subtle bigotry is never actually proof of bigotry and the goal posts are always shifted to excuse it. Classic. [243]

Editor was warned multiple times about WP:NPA both on the Talk page discussion and on their own Talk page, but that last diff was the final straw. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 01:01, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

NOTHERE'd for RGW/personal attacks. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 01:05, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Now fooling around with the block notice [244] and continuing with talkpage polemics. Acroterion (talk) 02:27, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

TPA revoked. Star Mississippi 02:37, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

I suspect @Yasarhossain07 of editing with a POV. I went through the user's edits from this year (largely excluding talk page edits), listing all 40 below for completeness. I believe there is a clear, overt bias and lack of neutrality in their edits. Prior to all of these edits, the user already had a history of personal attacks, during the discussion of which, others were already suspicious of Yasarhossain07 pushing a POV. If this is too much information, please let me know and I can curate this list.

1. Removed sourced content from Volga Tatars about the reduction of Tatar language studies in Russian public school, saying, "The article cited was misquoted" and that the content was not supported by the source. This is incorrect. It is supported by the source. In large, header-sized font: [245]
2. Added unsourced material about living people in Rauf & Faik, changing the origin of the duo from Azerbaijan to Russia, on the basis that their lyrics are in Russian and therefore they cannot be Azerbaijani: [246]
3. Removed content from a biography of a living person, Anna Asti, insisting the person is only Russian, per the fact that she has a Russian last name and ignoring that she was born in Ukrainian SSR: [247]
4. Inexplicably removed {{Citation needed}} from Paratrooper content about Soviet Airborne Forces: [248]
5. Added unsourced material to a biography of a living person, Aras Agalarov, again insisting the person is Russian, this time on the grounds that they live in Russia: [249]
6. Added unsourced material (personal commentary) to a biography of a living person, Gerhard Schröder: [250] and [251]
   1. The changes were reverted, and someone made a post on Yasarhossain07's talk page explaining Wikipedia's policy of neutrality, to which Yasarhossain07 responded, "How is it neutral? It doesn’t feel like a serious article when you smear the former Chancellor of Germany. This article has a serious Ukrainian bias," and then made a personal attack against the user: "A key board warrior is calling one of the greatest German leaders who helped Germany reunify a Russian puppet. Wikipedia is losing it’s credibility because of keyboard warriors having too much power." User talk:Yasarhossain07#March 2024
7. Removed sources and content regarding money laundering and fraud in Sheremetyevo International Airport, with a disingenuous edit summary saying the content was vandalism and unrelated to the topic: [252]
8. Added unsourced material to a biography of a living person, Arman Tsarukyan, again claiming they are Russian: [253]
9. Removed content from Russia in the Eurovision Song Contest regarding a song that was sung in both Ukrainian and Russian, insisting it was only in Russian. This is not factual, and naturally, the song is also immortalized in all its bilingual glory on YouTube: [254]
10. Removed infobox content from Grand Duchess Maria Vladimirovna of Russia regarding the dispute on her succession. The user claimed it's unsourced and that the Russian Orthodoxy Church is the final authority, therefore there are no disputes. There are, of course, disputes, and they are discussed in the article's body with citations provided (and here's another): [255]
    1. Similar issue as above, but in House of Romanov (however, the information was unsourced this time): [256] and [257]
11. Removed sourced content from Baltic Fleet regarding the Russian invasion of Ukraine, claiming, contrary to the references, "No official report or confirmation about the involvement of Baltic fleet in any possible way in the war in Ukraine." [258]
12. Unexplained removal of sources and content from United Russia regarding pro-Putin bias and inconsistency in the party's ideologies, replacing it with "[the party] still remains the most popular party in Russia." [259]
13. Removed content from Conservatism in Russia based on justifications that appear to be original research and personal opinion: [260], [261], and [262]
14. Unexplained removal of sourced content from Pulkovo Airport regarding a Ukrainian attack on a Russian oil refinery: [263]
15. Unexplained removal of sourced content from Great Stand on the Ugra River: [264]
16. Repeatedly adding unsourced content to BRICS, insisting Saudi Arabia had joined the organization, though they hadn't: [265], [266], and [267]
    1. The user eventually declared Wikipedia "the number one source of misinformation" and added outdated, incorrect sources as plaintext into the body: [268]
17. Added unsourced material to a biography of a living person, Farkhad Akhmedov, again claiming they are Russian: [269] and [270]
18. Removed sourced content from Azerbaijan–Russia relations about discrimination against Azerbaijani people in Russia (phrasing could be improved, but the source was a Russian journalist and political scientist): [271]
19. Added unsourced material to a biography of a living person, Sergei Skripal, claiming, "He is of Ukrainian decent." (A former Russian spy who acted as a double agent for the UK and was later convicted of high treason): [272]
20. Calling the Chechen National Army a 'terrorist' unit without supporting sources (units fight alongside Ukraine in Russia's invasion) [273]
21. Removed sourced content from Shamil Basayev regarding possible FSB responsibility in the person's death, claiming 'conspiracy theories' (the FSB themselves claimed responsibility): [274]
22. Removed sourced content from Alabuga Special Economic Zone regarding Russian drone development, justifying the removal with their own speculation or original research (or both): [275] and [276]

Skipped describing the following eight edits, as they appeared reasonable or could reasonably be mistakes, but provided them for completeness: [277], [278], [279], [280], [281], [282], [283], [284].

Thank you for any insights or responses. – Primium (talk) 03:54, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I think Wikipedia has been completely trashed with fake news and misinformation. It’s a liberal left wing profits info war outlet like Elon Musk has already said. And it’s worse when it comes to Russia and India. Yasarhossain07 (talk) 04:34, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

@Yasarhossain07 Please hear me out. It's absolutely true that Wikipedia is biased, and, in my experience, often exhibits a notable Russophobic bias. If you want to do something about that, simply making the changes you feel are appropriate is not enough.

You must learn more about Wikipedia's policies, like WP:TERRORISM, WP:NOR, WP:NPOV, and WP:V, and then you have to work within them and reference them in your critiques.

If you read those policies, and others, carefully, and come to truly understand them (and the ongoing & historical debates about them), you might be able to do something constructive to address bias on Wikipedia.

If you don't study & apply those policies, I'm afraid that you will probably be banned soon. I don't want to see that happen, so I hope you consider what I have said. Philomathes2357 (talk) 04:45, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I think Wikipedia has been completely trashed with fake news and misinformation. It’s a liberal left wing profits info war outlet like Elon Musk has already said.

This, sir, is what some of us call "digging your own grave." You're not exactly allaying Primium's POV concerns, and building a NOTHERE case against yourself. The Kip ^(contribs) 05:25, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

TheKip is quite correct. Your statement above shows quite clearly that you find it difficult to be neutral about these issues. I would advise you to stay away from these articles, otherwise you could be blocked from editing altogether. Deb (talk) 07:06, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Editors regularly contribute in areas where they have a very obvious identifiable POV. The existence of a POV is not the issue here, IMO. Given that our treatment of Russia topics is widely acknowledged to exhibit anti-Russian bias, someone with a nominally pro-Russian POV would add diversity to the project and help counter systemic bias. If Wikipedia had a systemic anti-POC bias, we wouldn’t discourage POC or anti-racists from editing topics about race, just because they have a POV, would we?

The problem that led to this ANI thread is the complete lack of application of Wikipedia’s policies and guidelines, especially NOR and V. I hope this user will read my previous comment and seriously consider it, before it is too late. If they don’t express any interest in becoming a more rigorous editor, they will probably be banned, and that will probably be for the best. Hopefully they can turn things around and agree, sincerely, to do the necessary work to become a more thoughtful contributor. Philomathes2357 (talk) 18:24, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Shamin Basaev’s killing has been clearly orchestrated by the FSB. Rest of it is unproven conspiracy theory. Chechen National army has committed multiple acts of terror in North Cacauss after losing the war against Russia so it’s a terrorist group. Yasarhossain07 (talk) 04:36, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Unproven claim about Iran copying German design. Germany would’ve produced those drones and Ukraine would be using them against Russia. I think Wikipedia has a bias against Russia. How can Iran copy something from Germany without Germany ever making that product on their own? Speculative untouched gossip lowers the quality of articles. Yasarhossain07 (talk) 04:39, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

@Yasarhossain07, English Wikipedia is seen and written by a lot of people from the US, UK, and other country that has relatively bad relations with Russia. (ex. Japan, SK, etc...) It's pretty obvious how it's inevitable to have Wikipedia biased, especially with the international law breaking Russia has done since 21th century. Although you are welcome to fix the biased opinion to a more neutral point of view, that doesn't mean you get to ignore all policies, or that you get to rewrite it from your point of view. (You can remove statements that are unreferenced, however.) ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 05:18, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

The country that has violated most international laws are US and Israel. Russia only intervened after Ukraine kept bombing the separatist areas in Donbass. No one should blame them for trying to protect ethnic Russians in Ukraine. It’s not like US invasion of Serbia, Libya or Iraq. Yasarhossain07 (talk) 02:18, 31 May 2024 (UTC)

I believe there are two issues at play here. One is that the user indeed is trying to right perceived great wrongs and, to put it quite simply, I don't think there are many quicker ways to prove you're NOTHERE than quoting Elon Musk. His comments here and his disregard for the rules make it clear that a block is in order.

The other issue is that the user is not always wrong, and OP is misrepresenting some of his edits. For example, the user did not claim that Arman Tsarukyan was Russian, but that he was both Armenian and Russian, which he is. The situation with Farkhad Akhmedov is very similar. In fact, in both cases their Russian citizenship has been noted in the past, but was later removed. The same can be said of Agalarov (ethnic Azeri but Russian citizen) and Rauf & Faik.

He also has a point regarding Schröder. OP (rightly) raises BLP concerns, but I would argue that the main problem is that the first thing we are saying in wikivoice on that article is that Schröder is a lobbyist. Really? I would not replace it woth statesman, nor would I add that bit about it being normal for former chancellors to go work in the private sector (a truism if there ever was one), but seriously, former leader of a major party in Germany, long political career, 7 years as chancellor and the first thing in the lead, the thing that stands out, is that he is a lobbyist? I know it is fashionable to dunk on Schröder today, and to an extent he has earned it, but this is absurd.

TL;DR the reported editor has shown that he deserves a block, but some of his complaints have merit, ans it might be worth checking out what can be fixed. Ostalgia (talk) 06:48, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I didn't mean to suggest Yasarhossain07 changed their nationalities to only Russian (except for Anna Asti, which I specified above). My concern was that it was further unreferenced additions, even if true, to these articles about living people. Those small changes in isolation wouldn't really appear contentious or problematic to me, but in the context of the whole, I think they contribute to a larger pattern of behaviour. As for Schröder, I don't know anything about the topic, but a separate user undid Yasarhossain07's actions and called it 'personal commentary.' Sorry, I should have made these clearer in my initial post. – Primium (talk) 16:18, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

If someone responds with personal attacks and rants about how right Elon Musk is about Wikipedia when someone points out issues with their obvious policy violating POV editing, they probably do not have the temparament to edit Wikipedia constructively. I support a block or ban from contentious topics, since there seems to be no sign of desire to improve. TylerBurden (talk) 18:40, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

• Comment Given that our treatment of Russia topics is widely acknowledged to exhibit anti-Russian bias, can I ask for reference on this "widely acknowledged" fact? There might be a anti-Russian tone in articles about the war in Ukraine but this is a sweeping statement presented as fact by several editors and I would like there to be some verification of a widespread bias they and others appear to perceive, in general, about articles on "Russian topics". I think that comments like these can't be made without being challenged or they can be seen to be accepted by others as true. Thank you. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 19:51, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
  • Bingo! It also implies that the bias is "editorial bias", something we do not allow. Editors are supposed to leave their biases at the door while editing, but they are also supposed to document what RS say, including the biases found in those RS. Since this is the English language Wikipedia, and most RS are in English, it would be natural to expect that English, primarily Western, sources, would tend to view Russia and its aggression in a negative light, and therefore our articles on such topics will naturally document that POV. This is just the "nature of the beast" for ALL different versions of Wikipedia. They will all display different, and even opposing, biases. Don't blame editors for that situation. In fact, if editors try to disguise, hide, or whitewash those POV and biases out of content, they are in violation of our NPOV policy. It is only "editorial" biases we keep out of content. Otherwise, sources and content are not required to be "neutral". -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 20:18, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

  By "widely acknowledged", I was mainly referring to the fact that multiple editors here, at this thread, have acknowledged it. I've also seen it acknowledged elsewhere at other venues. I'm happy to talk about anti-Russian bias with you, and you're free to ping me at my talk page if you want to have a deeper back-and-forth about that, but doing a deep-dive on that subject here at ANI may run afoul of WP:NOTFORUM.

  The user in question here is undeniably problematic and flirting with a ban, but he also has potential to be a good contributor, from what I see, and I'm trying to encourage him to quickly move in a more constructive, policy and source-based direction before it is too late.

  The main reason I said what I said about Russian bias is to sympathize with him, so he is more open to what I have said about learning PAG. - he is not crazy or delusional to think that anti-Russia bias is a problem - he's just not going about addressing it in the right way. Philomathes2357 (talk) 20:26, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

  This might not be an appropriate discussion to have in this discussion but saying things like he is not crazy or delusional to think that anti-Russia bias is a problem without any verification or reference that a bias exists is misleading. This is your personal opinion, no more than less than that of any editor who might disagree with you. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 02:05, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

  It is my opinion, sure. I'm not sure how it would be "misleading", unless you take the opposite view, namely, that it is crazy or delusional to think that there is systemic bias that affects articles about Russia. I assume you do take that view, otherwise you would not have taken the time to respond to my comment to @Yasarhossain07 and call it out for being misleading. That's obviously a-okay - we both have our opinions - and it's certainly a topic worthy of further discussion, but probably not here.

  It looks like this all comes down to whether or not YasarHossain issues a statement and publicly commits to carefully and soberly studying Wikipedia's PAG, earnestly trying to apply them to his edits, and accepting constructive criticism from others. If he does issue such a statement, I think he should stay. If he does not, he obviously needs to go. But I'm not even an admin, so it's not up to me - I'm going to disengage from this thread and let things play out. I've made my point to Yasar, and I hope he takes it seriously before the banhammer inevitably falls. Philomathes2357 (talk) 03:32, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

You have no idea what my view is, I haven't expressed it. All I said was that you shouldn't make sweeping asseertions of anti-Russian bias on Wikipedia as if this is commonly known without providing some verification that this is true. My protest is against unsupported generalizations about the state of Wikipedia, not whether or not the platform is pro-Russian or anti-Russian. You stated your opinion as if it was a widely known fact and I questioned that, that's all I was trying to point out. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 06:45, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

• Comment It’s a liberal left wing profits info war outlet like Elon Musk has already said. I'm not left wing, and I have a great time around here. Generally speaking, liberals are not left wing, but right wing moderates. tgeorgescu (talk) 21:22, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

• Indeed. I'd also add, though, that it's critical for the far-right that the simplicity of the property rights typology be poorly understood. But it is in fact quite simple. On the left: Communists (public ownership with little to no private), Social-Democrats (public ownership with some private). And on the right: Reform Liberals (private ownership with some public), Classical Liberals, aka 'Conservatives' in the US (private ownership with little to no public). Or at least so it goes wrt doctrine. But the reason, I suspect, the far-right wishes to obscure this is because they largely fall on the centre, but will always gravitate as right as possible in terms of sympathy (and conversely antipathy the more left one goes), due to greater prevalence of traditional systems of oppression, repression, suppression, etc., and other forms of stratification from when Kings ruled. Because for the far-right, bigotry is paramount. //Tangent over! El_C 03:24, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Guys, please remember this this is not a forum. – Primium (talk) 03:30, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Guys-this! Erm, probably a good call. ;) El_C 03:32, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

What is the usual process for a situation like this? Are we waiting for something to happen? Is there something else I'm supposed to do? – Primium (talk) 17:07, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

At the moment, it seems no admin sees this as urgently requiring intervention. Yasarhossain07 was corrected by several people above, if they resume this editing you can update this post or make a new one (if this one gets archived). Until then, we hope they change their ways. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 17:48, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Okay, thank you. – Primium (talk) 18:40, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

This doesn't seem explicit enough for WP:AIV, but user @Shera mc official‎ has been making edits to Wikipedia for a while that seem to be a mix of Tamil history fringe or football fandom.

• Editing the correct information out of the Serie A article to put Inter Milan in instead: diff

• Editing the Sumerian language article to state Tamil is older: diff

• Changing the actual winner of this league to Bengaluru FC: diff (and since I had to look this up too, source)

• Same thing here

They've been warned for their edits twice now: diff diff

Working back from February there's 19 edits and almost every single one has needed to be reverted or rolled back for being flat out not true. Warrenᚋᚐᚊᚔ 16:06, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Blocked. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 17:36, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

user:Quavvalos recently made a user page with the text saying "AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA 4 ACCOUNTS IN ONE DAY Your anti evasione system is ridiculous!!!🤣🤣🤣". this doesn't get any more obvious. Gaismagorm (talk) 21:18, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

also check out user:Quovalos, which due to the similar name and user:Quavvalos responding to a teahouse comment made by quovalos about block evasion might be an account under the same person. Gaismagorm (talk) 21:21, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

and user:Quaavalos who is doing the same Gaismagorm (talk) 21:22, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

okay Quaavalos and quovalos have been blocked but not quavvalos Gaismagorm (talk) 21:25, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

okay Quavvalos has now been blocked. so situation has been solved. Gaismagorm (talk) 21:26, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/14 novembre. This troll has been disrupting the Teahouse and the help desk all day. Just Step Sideways ^{from this world ..... today} 21:27, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

okay, well good luck to y'all with dealing with them Gaismagorm (talk) 21:29, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Oh I also mentioned them on the sockuppet investigation, just letting ya know Gaismagorm (talk) 21:44, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

@Just Step Sideways, what should be done with the amount of troll sections created in the Teahouse? Someone even went ahead and requested protection. ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 01:07, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I'd assume you'd just delete them as vandalism. Do not ever respond or attempt to engage in discussion once it's clear it's a sock of this guy. Air on White (talk) 01:09, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I'll try to tell responders to watch out for new accounts with Italian usernames in the meantime... Especially if they are from itwiki. ABG (Talk/Report any mistakes here) 01:21, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

It's generally good practise to just revert off any threads which are clearly being created to disrupt help fora with no further comment. Eventually they get bored/annoyed and back off (for a time). —Jéské Couriano v^_^v ^{threads critiques} 18:32, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

I believe the same user, under many different IPs, has been adding the same information about PredictIt's supposed F rating from Better Business Bureau for years due to a long-standing grudge against the company.

The first edit was this one on January 6, 2021 by 69.47.208.85 (talk · contribs · WHOIS). This later edit included a section called "FBI Sting Operation", which matches this BBB review from November 13, 2019 about how the customer was apparently interrogated by the FBI for three hours.

There have been many subsequent IP edits readding the BBB section whenever it is removed:

• Special:Diff/1006697046 on February 14, 2021 by 69.47.208.85 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• Special:Diff/1007205109 on February 17, 2021 by 69.47.208.85 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• Special:Diff/1007474153 on February 18, 2021 by 69.47.208.85 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• Special:Diff/1018238613 on April 16, 2021 by 69.47.208.85 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• Special:Diff/1038441075 on August 12, 2021 by 2600:1700:1e20:7a10:95a8:1895:24b8:6dc5 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• Special:Diff/1194088505 on January 7, 2024 by 2600:1700:1e20:7a10:55ad:629a:7201:7891 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• Special:Diff/1194206705 on January 7, 2024 by 2600:1700:1e20:7a10:499a:5ed:ca96:1705 (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• Special:Diff/1206999398 on February 13, 2024 by 2600:1700:1e20:7a10:586f:2d30:4b99:8eca (talk · contribs · WHOIS)
• Special:Diff/1226190129 on May 29, 2024 by 2600:1700:1e20:7a10:405f:692b:c922:315b (talk · contribs · WHOIS)

I think these edits are from one person because all the IPs geolocate to the same place: Chicago, Illinois. As this user frequently changes IPs, even within the span of a day, I haven't warned this user apart from leaving {{ANI-notice}} since they probably will not see it.

What's typically done in a situation like this, where reverts are spread out over months and years and made by different IPs? --Iiii I I I (talk) 06:22, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Suggestion: take it to WP:RFPP. Ostalgia (talk) 07:07, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

WP:RFPP seems the right venue as mentioned above. Broc (talk) 07:59, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Just to note 2600:1700:1E20:7A10:0:0:0:0/64 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) has been active and pushing the same edits to PredictIt since August 2021. They have a habit of waiting a few weeks to come back and try and force the same edit. There are other IPs in that time frame making good faith edits. So a block rather than page protection seems more appropriate. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 18:27, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm looking into this. Daniel Quinlan (talk) 20:59, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

2600:1700:1e20:7a10::/64 blocked from the pages PredictIt and Talk:PredictIt. The article has also been protected. Daniel Quinlan (talk) 21:12, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

History of the chair (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

The history of chairs has been raided for the past three months, removing information about chairs in sub-Saharan Africa. It stopped for a week. Now it's being raided again. I changed it back this time, but I don't want to be banned for doing it too many times..It is done by sock accounts editing their talk pages to get the 10 edit mark. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Developed it entirely (talk • contribs) 14:15, May 29, 2024 (UTC)

May need to be changed to Extended Confirmed protection. I just blocked a bizarre sleeper sock account from last year that just blatantly gamed to get autoconfirmed just to disrupt the article. So there are likely other sleepers out there. Canterbury Tail talk 19:08, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

it's being posted all over 4chan and 9gag encouraging users to go and remove the part about chairs in sub-Saharan Africa. Developed it entirely (talk) 19:15, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

I can post proof if you want Developed it entirely (talk) 19:15, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

No need, I think people are aware after last month. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:17, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

What a bizarre thing to start an edit war/socking/meatpuppetry encouragement over. Canterbury Tail talk 19:25, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

3 socks in 9 days (since semi-protection). Annoying but manageable, IMHO. Although if another admin thinks differently I'll defer to them, no strong opinion on this. And if newly confirmed accounts show up more often, then if I see it I'll EC it myself. --Floquenbeam (talk) 19:28, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

People were getting banned for like a week or two and most of the bans are up now also it's being spammed over the internet and imageboards. I think it's going to get worse if I'm being honest. Developed it entirely (talk) 19:37, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

I updated the protection to extended confirmed, until August--Ymblanter (talk) 19:58, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, have not read all the discussion carefully. If consensus develops it is an overkill pls reduce back to semi, perfectly fine with me. Ymblanter (talk) 19:59, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Can you also do something about the sock account who gamed to get autoconfirmed just to vandalism the article? Developed it entirely (talk) 00:13, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Do you mean User:Ms. Dangelo Rohan? If so they're already indeffed from before Canterbury Tail replied Special:BlockList/User:Ms. Dangelo Rohan, so what more is there to do? If you're thinking a CU, well WP:SPI is thataway but I'm not convinced it's beneficial here. From what you've outlined fair chance that most of these are just a bunch of different people. I sort of expect at least one CU has already assessed whether it's worthwhile anyway. Nil Einne (talk) 00:39, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Oh i didn't know he got banned but thank you for your help and time even if it's just a reply. You guys have begin really helpful! Developed it entirely (talk) 00:47, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Is it reasonable for one editor to assert in the edit summary of a revert of a good-faith edit by another, that the reverted editor had lied?

The timeline:

1. I restored, verbatim, the second part of a sentence which had been deleted as unsourced by Cambial Yellowing as I thought I had found that it was supported in the cited sources. I found mention of "jurisdiction" further down the sources, so assumed, rightly or wrongly, that it had been missed there by Cambial Yellowing, and the edit summary given by them for the original deletion was quite cryptic anyway.
2. Cambial Yellowing then reverted my edit with the snarky summary: none of the sources claim the reason no action was taken is *because of* "as" the fact tax is not under jurisdiction. please do not lie about the content of sources, add unsourced content to a biography of a living person, nor edit war to restore unsourced content to an article and posted a threatening and unnecessarily inflammatory 'warning' on my talkpage which clearly demonstrated their total failure to assume good faith.

Note: I have rarely raised issues here, and would normally raise this type of issue on an editor's talkpage, but a recent attempt to do that on a similar subject with this same editor was met with a blanking and with the posting to my talkpage of a misrepresentation of what I was doing and a 'ban' from ever posting again on their talkpage.

Thanks for any advice or brickbats. -- DeFacto (talk). 14:14, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Let's see now, I note the specific word that is unsourced in the text: "as" (in context, with the sense of "because"). Not only is it not "cryptic", I indicate precisely what is unsourced, and I put it after the word "unsourced". The presence of the word "jurisdiction" in the source has no bearing on this unsourced material about the reason for discontinuation. Nowhere do the sources indicate anything remotely close to this being the reason. The edit summary DeFacto seeks to impugn as "snarky" simply reports the fact - no sources support DeFacto's content (and no source comes close) - and requests, please, that DeFacto not repeatedly add unsourced content to BLP articles in future, nor claim that two specific sources say something they do not, which wastes editor time. (n.b. that's the standard warning template for unsourced content; level 3 was used because 1. you added it a second time despite the fact it was unsourced being pointed out 2. you have many edits to your name and ought to know better 3. this is a BLP.)

As DeFacto wishes to discuss what he claims is a failure to assume good faith, it's appropriate to raise DeFacto's quite explicit accusations of bad faith on article talk. Firstly an accusation of editing for the purpose of "hostility towards another editor and disingenuous comments and edit summaries", and later the same day an accusation that collapsing a sockpuppet of a blocked user is "to satisfy [a] craving to be make a point" – an evidence-free, and groundless, claim of disruptive editing to make a point. Cambial — foliar❧ 14:30, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

• Comment the content dispute is at Angela Rayner (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). There is some discussion on the talk page. Walsh90210 (talk) 17:50, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

• Comment Looking over User talk:DeFacto, it's clear that this dispute between two editors has been going on since early May. If this is going to be resolved, it's important for uninvolved editors to know that this animosity has been lasting for weeks and is not just due to an recent exchange of misunderstood edit summaries. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 07:17, 30 May 2024 (UTC)

Obi2canibe Has made a number of false accusations on this AfD by falsely claiming that I am an Indian editor who has had no previous interaction with this article or any other Sri Lankan article, contrary to the fact that I edited a number of Sri Lankan articles before.[290]

Obi2canibe does not stop there but goes ahead to cast WP:ASPERSIONS by speculating nationalities of experienced editors as "Indians" (as if it is something bad, see WP:NONAZIS) and further demeans them as "meatpuppets" by saying "Same with his Indian friends CharlesWain, Orientls, Lorstaking, Pravega and Raymond3023. The only argument these meatpuppets can make for deleting the article is that it didn't happen."

I asked Obi2canibe to remove these personal attacks,[291] however, he has clearly ignored it and went ahead to edit the AfD without removing/striking the offensive comments.[292] Ratnahastin (talk) 15:14, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

While this doesn't excuse anyone else's behavior, you should not be calling (even blocked) editors rabid in that same AfD (see Wikipedia:Gravedancing). Chaotıċ Enby (talk · contribs) 15:29, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

• @El C: Can you take a look into this report? Thanks. Ratnahastin (talk) 01:23, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

  Blocked – for a period of one week: User talk:Obi2canibe#Block. I'll drop a note at the AfD as well. El_C 01:40, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

@El C: Thank you! Kindly also take a look at this comment by a user who never edited any AfD before[293] but wants to claim existence of "off-wiki coordination" by "North Indian users" after citing a totally irrelevant diff from 2017 together with the false claim that I and other "delete" supporters have "no prior editing in Sri Lankan topic", just like Obi2canibe was doing. Ratnahastin (talk) 02:11, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

@Ratnahastin: You are required to notify users when you start a discussion involving them here, this counts too. – 2804:F14:8085:6201:A43F:E4B1:D650:8276 (talk) 02:21, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

@Ratnahastin, what a bad faith move. Instead of notifying me that you took exception to it, you come directly here to get me sanctioned without once again notifying me? It was my mistake as a relatively new user to involve people's nationalities (which I've now corrected) but I wanted to bring it to admins' attention a suspicious activity that was going on. Also, I didn't accuse any user in particular of "off-wiki coordination" but suggested that admins look into POTENTIAL case of it.---Petextrodon (talk) 02:47, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

@El C, dear admin, am I allowed to report the user JohnWiki159 under this same report for falsely accusing me of "working as a group" with the now banned sockpuppets "to keep their point of view in the article", when in fact I had publicly challenged one of the puppet masters for reverting my edit?---Petextrodon (talk) 03:00, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

You are editing for more than 1.4 years as such you are not a new user. As far as I can see, there is clearly no "POTENTIAL case" of off-wiki coordination on other side because it involves experienced editors frequently editing for a long time. With your false accusations, you are not only assuming bad faith but also poisoning the well by citing a totally irrelevant diff from 2017 as basis and using same personal attacks as Obi2canibe. Can you tell your reasons why you are doing that? Ratnahastin (talk) 03:13, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

@Ratnahastin 2017 diff was not in reference to you but two other editors who voted. I had intended to mention you in reference to taking the same stance as other India topic editors but admittedly I worded it poorly. I do consider myself a relatively new user since each day I'm learning a new policy. I thought it important to mention nationality as that figures into potential sockpuppet or meatpuppet investigation, but after reading that admin's warning I will be more careful.----Petextrodon (talk) 03:21, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I suppose you just did [report], Petextrodon...? I think it's best for disputants of either side in the dispute to refrain from making any un-evidenced statements that groups those editors together — unless there is real and actionable proof of prohibited influence, such as by way of WP:CANVASSING and WP:SOCK / WP:MEAT. Thanks. HTH. El_C 03:31, 28 May 2024 (UTC)